Value on a early diecast

[sancastnorway]

I know that early sandcast is valuable, but how popular would diecast number CB750-1007489 with engine CB750E-1007548 be? As far as I have found out, this also have a sandcast engine, I am not sure yet, but it looks like that. It would be bike number 75 of the diecast series, and I have never seen an earlier frame than this. The bike is bad, but can still be restored.
Jan

[markb]

I would think that a low number diecast bike would have some desirability.  But are you saying that engine number 7548 is a sandcast engine?  I think that would be an extraordinary find.  You guys can correct me but to my way of thinking what makes a frame and/or a bike a sandcast is the engine.  So in fact if that engine is a sandcast engine then you have a sandcast, not a diecast.  Got pics?

[sancastnorway]

I have asked for more pics of it. I will post it here when I get it. It is a little bit difficult to see on the phot, but it looks like it has the 9 bolt clutch cover. As far as I know it is only the sancasted cases who have this.

We all know that it was made a serie of 7414 bikes from the parts list, but does anyone know how many cases who was made? I guess it was more than 7414. Could the first bikes in the diecast series have sandcasted cases, or some of them?

Is there anyone here who have an early K0. Below serial number 7489..

Look at the photo and tell me what you think. As far as I can see it miss the 10'th bolt, and looks pretty rough in the surface, just like my other sandcast 2996.
Jan T.

[Sam]

Looks like a nine bolt clutch cover to me. Can't see the case texture close enough. To my knowledge, there are no diets cases that have a nine-hole clutch cover. I wonder if the engine number has been misinterpreted?

[sancastnorway]

Maybe. That is why I have asked for a photo of the engine number to see if it is re-stamped.
Jan

[markb]

I don't know why anyone would do it but could the 9-hole cover bolt up to a diecast case?  I'm anxious to see the engine number.

[kp]

The 9 hole will bolt up to a die cast case but this is an extraordinary find if the engine number pans out. Mark is correct absolutely on that what makes a Sandcast is the engine so if the engine is correctly a Sandcast then the whole bike becomes a Sandcast the proviso being that the engine is an original to the frame.
Forgive me but I don't remember the actual cut off being 7414 as an engine number ceasing or was it 7414 as a VIN number ceasing. Either way these are the sort of discoveries that come from left fiel which throws all our assumptions into turmoil if correct, and I stress, if correct. Definitely more info required but this is exciting to me and I suspect to others as well.

[markb]

I remember the 7414 cutoff as being the engine number.  But if there are French sandcasts with numbers greater than 7414 then there certainly could be another.  In this case maybe cases that needed repair and were never stamped and used until after diecast production started.  That would put this find in a class by itself.  Whether that makes it more valuable remains to be seen but as KP says, it is exciting.

[Wayne]

Zoomed in on the points cover area. Sure looks like sandcast to me. I went out and looked at my diecast, they are aren't even close in appearance. Also note the larger oil gallery plug hex size and early? oil lines?  

[Steve Swan]

ok.  back from a fantastic 4 day, 1400 mile vacation ride.  Little Big Horn Battle Ground, Beartooth Pass and Shell Canyon for those interested !

Oh !  these reports are always exciting !!!  and always first come in with poor quality pictures to get our pulses pounding and blood pressures up !  Honestly, the pictures are just good enough to cause opinions to fly and not quite good enough to better substantiate.  I've looked close up and even i can't tell, and that's my 20/20 vision at 2 inches....

1.  We need to see picture of vin pad on engine to verify !

2.  We need excellent quality pictures of vin pad, crankcase surface.


My February 1971, 1st Edition Parts Catalog; for "sandcast," 2 pn's upper/lower crank case ASSEMBLIES as follows:

1)  11010-300-070...  NOT AVAILABLE, USE 11010-300-415...   CB750E-1000001 TO CB750E-1000219

     11010-300-080...  NOT AVAILABLE, USE 11010-300-415...   CB750E-1000220 TO CB750E-1007414
    
     11010-300-090...  NOT AVAILABLE, USE 11010-300-405...   CB7502-1007415 TO CB750E-1044805

The parts catalog goes on to identify "405" and "415" crankcases as follows:

     11010-300-110...  CRANKCASE ASSEMBLY............    CB750E-1044806 TO
     11010-300-415...  CRANKCASE ASSEMBLY SET......    CB780E-10000001 TO CB750E-107414
     11010-300-405...  CRANKCASE SET.....................    CB750E-1007415 TO CB750E-1044805          

Without any further thought on my part, the above verbatim, straight out of parts book, clearly this raises more questions than it answers, at least for me.  we know according to parts book the LH rear corner bolts were changed from 8x80 to 10x80 at E141.  Other than that, i cannot remember or don't know what the remaining differences in crankcases are.

SO, THERE ARE 6 CRANKCASE TYPES.....

....070, ...080, ....090,.... 110,..., 405,.... AND 415  ANYONE ONE KNOW ACTUAL DIFFERENCES

OK. so i'm known for being long winded.... but hopefully maybe helpful.  And we know the hazards and pitfalls of referring to ONLY one literature source.

To my way of thinking, 7548 must be diecast.  (but in this crazy sandcast world, who can say "I am absolutely 100% right?   )

the clutch cover does look 9 hole.  In addition to seeing excellent pictures of Evin and Fvin, would be nice to see how many holes in crankcases with cover removed.  i honestly can't tell surface texture in picture of crankcase surface.  and i don't want to jump to conclusions.

Please send better pictures and more information  

Without pictures we ass-ume....

Theories..... ?!?!?!!!

1.  post-E7414 factory production anomaly. a set of sandcast cases was used from the factory....  seems highly unlikely....  but, there ARE those French sandcasts !  PICTURES.....! WE NEED PICTURES !!  GOOD PICTURES !!!

2.  replacement sandcast cases which someone stamped original vin from original diecast cases.  this would be not an impossibility.  i myself have owned 3 sets of unstamped sandcast cases.  Sandcast cases were around before diecast cases, so it's entirely possible the diecast cases were damaged and replaces with sandcast.



    

[hondasan]

I'm going to suggest that these cases ARE sandcast. Die cast cases would have a raised area on the upper case, right side rear within which date codes are set. MUCH more pronounced than the modest casting date markings on (post 400 or so) sandcast cases, and so would be readily visible even on the posted picture.
Sandcast cases ties in with the 9 hole clutch cover fitted (even though such a cover could be fitted to die cast cases).

We keep coming back to needing a picture of the VIN pad.
If it proves to be a factory sandcast, then that moves the official last engine number of 7414 - but the later French sandcasts have already discounted 7414 as being the absolute last sandcast engine number anyway. Or maybe replacement unstamped sandcast cases, re-stamped with original number?

Picture please!

Chris

[markb]

 replacement sandcast cases which someone stamped original vin from original diecast cases.  

Or maybe replacement unstamped sandcast cases, re-stamped with original number?

I like this theory.  Since it is such a low "diecast" bike there was very likely un-stamped replacement sandcast cases still around.  If so I wonder if the owner noticed that the engine was rougher.  I remember a discussion years ago about how if someone would have just waited a bit he could have gotten one of the nicer engines, of course not realizing how valuable they would be some day.

OK. so i'm known for being long winded....

Who said that?    I actually appreciate the thoughtfulness and detail that you put into your posts.

[sancastnorway]

I have asked for a photo of the engine number. It should be easy to see if the stamps are factory made or stamped after. I will come back soon as I get more photo's.

Both the nine hole clutch cover and the casting details under cylinder 4 looks like sandcasted cases....


Jan

[4pots1969]

There is no possible doubt: it is an engine block Sandcast much if you compare it to the various points surrounded on the picture of KO without even talking about the 9 holes of the clutch cover...
After we wait all looking forward to a nice picture HD engine number...

[kettle738]

A Google search of that picture with the broken side panel says it was first used here.

http://www.caferacer.net/forum/general/9549-another-find-750-sandcast-1969-cb750-w-pics.html

That was back in 2009.


Mick..........kettle738