Honda CB750 Sandcast

7/E90 now in VIN Directory

Wayne · 30 · 16471

Wayne

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Yep, you read that right. It's the lowest number we have in there!

http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/vin_directory.html
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CBman

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Is it really correct engine number for bike nr. 7 ???


Wayne

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The title says it is.
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CBman

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In this title is not engine number and even this title was issued in 1973, so this is not original first title. If we will not see purchase contract or first title, we can only discuss about originality of this bike.


kp

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Is it really correct engine number for bike nr. 7 ???
Why wouldn't this combination be correct. Of the 19 recorded Frame #'s in the 0 to 100 range listed in the registry, 8 Engine #'s are lower than their corresponding Frame # with one being 30 under its paired Frame #. Frame 9 came from the factory with Engine 98 (not in the registry) and Frame 28 came paired with Engine 132, the latter I know being absolutely the correct pairing. Between Frame 1 and Frame 200 there are a lot of engine numbers missing. Of the 10 Frame #'s listed in the 100 to 200 range only 4 Engine #'s are in reasonably close range. KP
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 01:17:59 am by kp »
Yabba Dabba KP


4pots1969

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A first date very late circulation of 03/03/1970 does not mean that the sandcast is not a true sandcast 1969 ....
It is little being that the bike has long remained at a Honda dealer without being registered in 1969 for many reasons ...
The first date of the certificate does not mean that the motorcycle is not genuine, and maybe the bike has long remained at a Honda dealer without title permanently ...  Hoping you understand what I mean ...
So I think the certificate with the date 03/03/1970 is authentic for CB7501000007.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 01:26:42 pm by 4pots1969 »


CBman

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4pots1969 and kp: ofcourse first registration doesnīt mean production. But I was talking, that certificate we can see, was issued in 1973, so we canīt see original certificate from1970.
There are some changes on this sandcast, so I was only talking, that it would be good to see also purchase contract, where will be seen also original engine number for bike with VIN nr.7. Just my personal view is, that engine nr.90 is too high for bike nr.7.
Our VIN directory is not 100% certain proof of sandcasts, while many of them have not original engine or frame installed, or some sandcasts from our VIN directory were put together just from parts, so totaly no originality.
Sorry, if my opinion is radical, but it is just my personal view. And Iīm not only one who is thinking it.


DW69K0

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Finding another early VIN & Engine Sandcast is exiting, with both of them being under the 100 mark. I always appreciate others opinion even when they differ from mine and I have learned a lot from others perspective through the the years. I am always digging for facts, so when CBman mentions the VIN directory as a source of information, which is the only source of published Sandcast Vin's available to my knowledge, it shows some important and interesting facts.

18 of 100 frames have been entered from the first 100 Sandcast or 18% of the possible combinations of frame and engine match-ups, but we know all these were not factory pairs. 3 of the engines are 6x numbers now, which is the highest ten number range group of numbers recorded under the 100 mark. Engine 64 is in frame 33, and Engine 63 is in Frame 81. Frame 81 and 33 have a delta of 49, so having an engine and frame off by a delta of 53, in the case of VIN 7/E60, is not that uncommon when we compare all the combination to other know VIN/E combinations in the first 500 Frame/Engine pairings.

The directory overall contains less than 6% of the Sandcast frames produced and approximately 7% of all the engines of the 7414 Sandcast produced, so statistically we still know very little about the entire production run of Sandcasts. I wonder if we will ever discover and have a VIN  directory that reaches 10% of the entire Sandcast production run.

I think we place too much emphasis on many of the lower VINs because they are unique and they bring more money than the higher VIN combinations. We have discovered a higher percentage of the lower.VINs on the site, yet at this time the 6000 VIN frames are the rarest of all the frame ranges with only 4.1% of these 1,000 frames produced being entered in the VIN directory.

I am still of the opinion we don't know how these Frame and Engine combination were paired, the facts show at this point in time, we have not confirmed a single Frame and Engine number matched exactly coming out of the Honda factory, so I think as time goes by and the value of these bike increase, we will see additional numbers being registered. The registry is important to all of us as we all use it as a reference point when evaluating characteristics from different VIN ranges.

Provenance for every Sandcast is an important part of authentication and pricing for all of us who love the Sandcast.

IMHO, we still don't know, what we don't know. Look at how much we have learned from 10 years ago and some of the assumptions we made back then are no longer valid. Let's keep digging into our Sandcasts and posting new discoveries.

Duane


Steve Swan

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Finding another early VIN & Engine Sandcast is exiting, with both of them being under the 100 mark. I always appreciate others opinion even when they differ from mine and I have learned a lot from others perspective through the the years. I am always digging for facts, so when CBman mentions the VIN directory as a source of information, which is the only source of published Sandcast Vin's available to my knowledge, it shows some important and interesting facts.

18 of 100 frames have been entered from the first 100 Sandcast or 18% of the possible combinations of frame and engine match-ups, but we know all these were not factory pairs. 3 of the engines are 6x numbers now, which is the highest ten number range group of numbers recorded under the 100 mark. Engine 64 is in frame 33, and Engine 63 is in Frame 81. Frame 81 and 33 have a delta of 49, so having an engine and frame off by a delta of 53, in the case of VIN 7/E60, is not that uncommon when we compare all the combination to other know VIN/E combinations in the first 500 Frame/Engine pairings.

The directory overall contains less than 6% of the Sandcast frames produced and approximately 7% of all the engines of the 7414 Sandcast produced, so statistically we still know very little about the entire production run of Sandcasts. I wonder if we will ever discover and have a VIN  directory that reaches 10% of the entire Sandcast production run.

I think we place too much emphasis on many of the lower VINs because they are unique and they bring more money than the higher VIN combinations. We have discovered a higher percentage of the lower.VINs on the site, yet at this time the 6000 VIN frames are the rarest of all the frame ranges with only 4.1% of these 1,000 frames produced being entered in the VIN directory.

I am still of the opinion we don't know how these Frame and Engine combination were paired, the facts show at this point in time, we have not confirmed a single Frame and Engine number matched exactly coming out of the Honda factory, so I think as time goes by and the value of these bike increase, we will see additional numbers being registered. The registry is important to all of us as we all use it as a reference point when evaluating characteristics from different VIN ranges.

Provenance for every Sandcast is an important part of authentication and pricing for all of us who love the Sandcast.

IMHO, we still don't know, what we don't know. Look at how much we have learned from 10 years ago and some of the assumptions we made back then are no longer valid. Let's keep digging into our Sandcasts and posting new discoveries.

Duane

Duane, thank you for your thoughtful observation and analysis of frame and engine vin ranges.  

as i have always said about things sandcast, there is alot more we don't know than what we "think" we do know.  we have much more to learn.  

Many, if not all, of our assumptions or hypotheses rise from inference or deduction and must be first proven with evidence before considered "fact."  caution should be given to anyone who considers themselves "expert" enough to arrive at (or jump to) conclusions without evidence to support their observations.  And then, evidence should be supported with as many examples of "fact" to support "conclusions."  Even then, "conclusions" should always be challenged with the discovery of more evidence.

Duane, your (and KP's) observations on the 7/E90 vin set as possibly/probably factory authentic "pairing" align with what i "know" and believe to be not only possible but likely probable as a vin pairing that occurred at the factory.

in closing, i will say 2 things......  

1.  in our passion to learn what we can about sandcast CB750's, some of us on this board have learned, in our travels, details about various sandcast vins we have been told (right, wrong or indifferent) to not repeat these specifics or reveal the source of these specifics.  Therefore, knowing what i have been told and shown as factual, sometimes i am obligated to not reveal the source because i was asked by the source to not reveal the source.

2.  i am no expert.  but i always do my best to find evidence to support what appears to be what i think it appears to be.  in the past i have been known to make, sometimes, rash or premature statements.  or arrive at inaccurate conclusions because i did not test my ideas with fact.  so.......  i learn from my mistakes.


Erling

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Stated by DW69KO: The facts show at this point of time,we have not confirmed a single frame and engine number matched exactly coming out of the Honda factory!
But I've long time ago stated my vins and they have been the same from day one. Though just recently changed to the right ones in the list. Thank you Wayne. In the last column I've a (*) Why? if i dare ask. Apparently the only one in the whole setup. I could as Steve Swan state my lower case is dated 5-20 for that one though if needed.
Erling.


4pots1969

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Who can believe that a guy found a sandcast 1000007 frame with no engine and then he managed to find a 1000090 motor??
But let's see the photos...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 09:46:05 am by 4pots1969 »


DW69K0

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Erling - As I was running data from the VIN directory I never ran across a frame/ engine combination that matched, which is the reason I made this statement. I reviewed the directory again today and still do not find this combination. I do see 1676/E1638 with an * in the far column, so please help me understand what I am missing. I am not saying that it could not happen, I just didn't run across a factory matched pairing.

The real point I was trying to make is this, when you analysis the frame!engine combinations in our directory there is quite a variation, I hope to post some statistical numbers and a graph showing the extent of these combinations soon. I am not trying to dispute the validity  of information in the directory by any means.

Best,
DW


CBman

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4pots1969 and some others:
just for explanation. In our VIN directory is Sandcast 69/E53. What I know this bike was build together from different parts found anywhere. It means, that only frame 69 alone was found in Germany and engine nr.53 was found in US. Sorry, it is not original sandcast for me. It is just package of spare parts.
I just would like to know, how many sandcasts from VIN directory are truly original complete ones, that were originaly sold as a complete bikes by any Honda dealer.

When talking about this 7/E90. For me another little mystery is, that it was registered 3/3/1970. What we have information, first batch of CB750 was delivered to US in June 1969. So where was this bike sitting for 10 month? Also why it was reregistered again in 1973, while as actual owner had said, it should be in the family since end of 1969. It means, that the first owner had never registered this amazing bike? And second owner had it registered in 3/3/1970 and than same owner registered it in 1973 again??? OK, maybe it is true, but it sounds little bit strange to me. Especially, while this 7/E90 bike has some parts from K1. I would not be surprised, if this bike will be for sale during short time......


kp

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just for explanation. In our VIN directory is Sandcast 69/E53. What I know this bike was build together from different parts found anywhere. It means, that only frame 69 alone was found in Germany and engine nr.53 was found in US. Sorry, it is not original sandcast for me. It is just package of spare parts.
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,1065.0.html
Someone has a good memory
Yabba Dabba KP


Sgt.Pinback

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VIN and engine number are documented in the warranty document and in the service booklet. Maybe the owner of 007 still has them.

I do.





Cheers, Uli (Leonberg, Germany)