Honda CB750 Sandcast

Found A 1969 - What to Look For?

Wayne · 63 · 18191

Wayne

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Wayne,

Let me not be misunderstood about dual brake caliper setup. Did not come from factory as it is. The 2nd caliper, made up of genuine Honda parts, was added by some proud owner after the bike was sold new. This "upgrade" was not uncommon. I don't know any more about this upgrade, but it was the hot setup, back in the day. I am confident someone in the club knows more of the details on this upgrade.

On the early short neck brake lines, (just like early oil lines) are at this point, rare and irreplaceable. KP was going to look around to see if he could find someone to produce replicas of these early brake lines.

Your plan sounds like a good one, if you're not going to run the bike, but instead put in in long term storage, then what i do, is completely drain tank, let it dry out and then i spray in aersol grease that initally is fluid like, rotate the tank to cover the entire surface area, this aerosol grease then sets up as a film.

Keep us posted. There are many parts on this bike we can examine to determine what parts stopped being used at that particular vin.

Hope you will post more pics of the bike after you get it.
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Wayne

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Thanks Steve
I think I'll go down this weekend and see if I can strike the deal. Once I get it home just list the stuff you want me to take pictures of and I'll do it before I take it to the storage facility. Thanks again.

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Steve Swan

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Hi Wayne,

Thanks for your reply.

I ask, for a start, just post a good full view of each side and also a good view of each side of engine including oil lines. Also pics of brake line/junction areas, seat pan(s.) As soon as you post them, if there are any more questions, before you take bike to storage, i will ask you.

Glad you made decision to get the bike, you cannot go wrong.



Wayne

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Steve (or anyone)

Are parts manuals available for these units? Also, What is the best repair manual out there? I would like to start familiarizing myself with all aspects of these machines. I'm a firm believer in the old saying "the body won't go where the mind hasn't already been".

I'm not touching one nut or bolt on this bike until I fully understand not only the mechanical elements, but the rare items that may be unique to this VIN. I understand the latter will be learned from experts such as the people who are members here.
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Steve Swan

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Hi Wayne,

Your plan sounds like a great one !

Before i start any restoration project, i always obtain the parts and service manuals to study, then i compare what i am reading to the parts making up the actual bike, before, during and after the dis-assembly of the bike.

Did you get the bike yet ?

Yes, Parts Manuals are available, if you want original, your best bet is keep a regular eye open on ebay.

If i recall correctly, the first printing was April 1969, followed by a July printing. These early printings are somewhat rare and expensive. I am not sure what the print date is on the latest CB750 manual. And, quite a few part numbers are correct only for the early vins and not carried over to later vins, in other words, if you look for parts using the pn's from an early manual, these pn's may come back as no longer available, due to being superceded. And, with these early manuals, parts that were used on later vins, are, for obvious reasons not found in the earlier manuals.

After the CB750 manual, comes the K1 manual, the first print date, if i remember correctly, is February 1971. This manual has many of the updated and superceded notations for the CB750, including early vins such as yours. In my opinion, the first printing K1 manual is the best of the lot, it shows in much detail, the changes the CB750 underwent, both from design changes as well as supercession.

Otherwise, if you don't have to have an original parts manual and a copy is ok, someone of us would probably be happy to make you a copy. i have both manuals mentioned above.

As far as Workshop Manual, i like the factory manual the best, they really do a a nice job, as good as any aftermarket manual and it has all the factory pictures in it. I am not sure what the print date ofthe first workshop manula was, i have a 7/69 in rough condition and an 8/69. There was also a thin provisional workshop manual with a print date of June 1969, much different from the typical green covered manual. Either a Clymer or a Chilton's is good as well, i don't care for the Haynes. You can buy an original green cover CB750 manual for a reasonable price, if you don't have to have an early print date, as far as i know, they are all the same. The same CB750 manual was used for the K1 also, there was a K1 (thin) supplement with a brown cover that addressed the service considerations unique to the K1.

Please note, i refer to both these manuals as CB750 manuals, becasue this is what the factory called them. They were not called "K0"manuals, because it was quite some time later before Honda started using the model designation "K0" in any of their literature. If i recall correctly, Honda started using the term "K0" sometime in the early 80's. If anyone knows when the term "K0" was first seen in Honda literature, please post the evidence !

I have not ever seen a K2 onward service manual, but i will assume the manual is referred to by Honda as servicing K2 models.

The factory parts manuals, i have CB750, K1, K2, K3-6 manuals, Honda uses the "K" designation in their manuals all the way from K1-K6, with exception of course, to the 69-70 CB750's from vin 1-44649. "K0" was never a term that was seen in any period factory parts manual, AT LEAST THAT I AM AWARE OF ! The designation of "CB750" was used by Honda in distinguishing machines from vin #1 through 44649. Honda made no distinction bewteen sand and pressure cast bikes in any of their literature, including parts or service manuals, again, AT LEAST THAT I KNOW OF !

But, there is much more to be learned about the CB750, more than we will ever know in our lifetime.

WHEW.......... ! I went off on a tangent there, but i LOVE factory literature as much as i love the actual motorcycle. I collect every piece i can find.


Wayne

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Thanks Steve
Great info. No, I don't have the bike yet. Spoke to the owner by phone today and he had go away. He's home for part of the day tomorrow (Jan 24) so I may try and get down to see him and see if we can fialize the deal. My brother lives there and is trying to arrange a trailer so I can get it out of there right away. Even though this guy is an old friend of mine he is very bullheaded and gets difficult to deal with when he's drinking (as he was this AM) I want to make sure he doesn't have any leins against the bike so I have to pry the title from his hands and get what's called a "Used Vehicle Package" from the Ministry of Transportations here in Ontario Canada. That will tell me if the bike is free and clear. You never know what this guy might borrow against. I'm not handing hime a dime until we get that document. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.
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Bickle

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Hi Wayne,
If you need any local assistance....I am just north of the GTA.
........The Other Steve


Wayne

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Thanks Steve
Nice to know help is close. I'm only about 1.5 hours fromm TO in Trenton. Thanks again.
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Wayne

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Well, we have a deal and I took away some of the parts he had in a box. I'll get the used Vehicle Package today. That will show me the history. It will show one additional owner as my friend put the bike in his brother in laws name when he got divorced. Slippery guy! The attached MTO Safety inspection certificate validates the mileage when that was done. Very few miles were put on the bike since.

The left side cover has a broken mounting tab, a broken screen tab as well as a missing screen.

The air box is a different story. It is more that "cracked" as the owner stated as you can see in the pictures. If these things are better to fix than repplace I am pretty handy working with resins, fiberglass etc. I have assisted in the restoration of a couple of rare 64 split window coupe corvettes where we had to make some hood pieces etc. that could not be purchased. I would look to you guys for advice should I decide to go ahead with this project myself to identify the resin types and the best repair procedure.

The mirror pictured is about 4 1/8" across the face.

So I'll trailer the bike home next weekend, take all the pics the group would like to see, do a compression test etc. and prepare the bike for storage until I make a decision on what to do with it. My friends storage facility is ventilated and has a small ceramic heater. Just enough to keep the dampness down so hopefully we can avoid and further degredation of this unit. Any questions or comments fire away. I'll answer if I can.

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Steve Swan

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Wayne

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Steve
It's 10 mm. Has 596563 above a logo that is oval with an M and and S winding through it, and a lower logo near the upper stem looks like an oval with an H in it.

He could only find one mirror when I was there. The one you saw the stem in the pic of the bike was from a Honda Shadow. Good eye thinking it was a 11 mm mirrior though!
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Wayne

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I only have the one sidecover Steve and no Date stamp. Under high magnification I can see evidence of something just between and a bit below the pegs. It almost looks like a pencil mark but it doesn't wipe off. It is definately a "T" and what appears to be an "O". It's very faint.

The other sidecover is still on the bike so I'm assuming the mounting tabs are all intact. I'll use my Rebel XT for clear high res photos when I get it home.

I do have some curiosity questions though. Why would someone remove the screens from the sidecovers on this bike? Was it something that was done back in the day for a reason?

As well, the damage to the airbox To me it looks like things start to go array by overtorquing and cracking the box. Attempst to repair lead to more problems if not done correctly it would seem. Am I onthe right thought process?

Lastly, just out of curiosity as I haven't decided yet if I'm going to take this project on but, with the damage to the side cover and middle portion of the air box would the guys with experience here fix them, get used replacements or replicas?

I looked at replica mirrors and although they are close they don't appear to have all the markings the one original I have does. I found what appeared to be a Honda replacement part and even it didn't have all the markings. Are the originals desireable in any other way other than 10 mm vs 11 mm?

Sorry for all the questions on a project I haven't even taken on but I am a curious kind of guy.

Lastly, I got the vehicle history today. Unfortunatley it does not show the original owner as it's too old. It only shows my friend and his brother in law as he tranferred it to him when he got divorced so as not to lose it. My friend does think he has the bill of sale from the original owner along with the other mirror. Hopefully he can find them.
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Wayne

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Wayne, you are asking great questions.

I hope you decide to keep the bike, it deserves you.

1. ink dating inside of side covers - Showan calendar dating is used. Hirohito ascended to the throne in 1926, his family name was Showa. 1927 was the first year of the reign of the family Showa. 1969 would be the 43rd year of the reign of the family Showa. The ink calendar dating would be, for example, "43.6.10." Gregorian calendar dating would be "69.6.10" or June 10, 1969. I have no idea when Honda first began ink dating side covers nor do i know when or if all side covers were ink date stamped from the very beginning.

2. no idea why screens were removed. maybe somebody was going to do a paint job? maybe somebody did not like the look of the screens ? i am not aware of screens being removed because of fad behavior. Who knows why these things were done ? If only the bike could talk.........

3. if the side cover looks like a piece from another original side cover could be grafted in, i like Lord Plastic Repair product, Fusor 143. of course one would need to find a donor from another side cover for the part. Lord Plastic Repair product using Fusor 143 and Lord Fusor mesh, with will NOT break in area of repair. No doubt, there are other repair products, but i also know there are problems with other products adhesing to the nasty, rotten, brittle material these parts were made of. My experience, Lord Fusor 143 with mesh, WORKS on this old material.

4. the airbox, i would definitely do anything i could to save the upper half with out the relief for the rear frame down tubes. The middle plate section, in the past i have used the plate from a David Silver Spares pattern box. The lower section, if you can repair it, go for it. Otherwise, use a DSS lower pattern. You may have to buy a whole DSS box and then use the DSS box for parts. If you had both the DSS box and the original repaired box repainted, then you could use what parts you needed to make a functional and original appearing airbox.

5. To repair or to replace original "plastics," that is the question....... ! i guess you could evaluate the integrity of how the repair outcome would be, based on how badly the part is cracked/broken, as well as how much it would cost to repair vs replace. on 232 i had no original early airbox nor late box for that matter. So, went to DSS. Ditto sidecovers. i don't know if DSS airbox and Yamiya airbox are same in quality. I can say, i would always use the Yamiya side cover over DSS and the DSS airbox is less money than Yamiya box. The DSS box works very well, is made of polyurethane, so must be cured under UV light to remove mold releasing oils before painting or paint will not adhere.

6. the mirrors that came on maybe the first 300-400 vins had 11mm stems, then went to 10mm stems. the mirror backs that hold the glass, these mirrors that came on the bike off the assembly line have 2 logos, "HM" and "MS." Later replacement mirrors, not certain of production date, had only the "MS" logo. (even early K1 mirrors had the "double logo" mirrors, of course not acorn nut type.) (KP has dis-assembled these mirrors and had the metal backs re-chrome plated.)

7. Suggestion - when you get 248 home, print off the BB thread titled "86 Distinctions" and compare what you find on the bike to what you note on the list of 86 distinctions. Then ask post your findings or ask questions accordingly.

8. Rust on chrome plated parts. i have had great luck using Naval Jelly, available in hardware stores. Naval Jelly is very viscous dilute solution of phosphoric acid that clings to the part it is applied to. The application time varies depending on severity of rust, but rust will be removed, leaving the bare steel. On badly rusted gas tanks, i have left Naval Jelly in the tank for up to two weeks. Some guys like to use muriatic acid, but the potency of muriatic acid, for rust removal and attacking good metal as well, scares me, especially if the metal is thin. Even using Naval Jelly, if there is a pin hole and the acid is used long enough, the pin hole will be revealed. That is a good thing, of course, no one likes to find a pin hole from rust in their tank......... ! But, better to know before the paint is applied, than after........... !

9. Don't be sorry for your questions, you are asking good ones. Keep asking them. We need this type of discussion to keep things alive.
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Wayne

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Thanks Steve
Great info. I read the 86 differences thread earlier and will certainly do as you suggested. There are a couple of terms I'm not familiar with but I'll ask when I get to them.

As for plastic/resin type repairs, I love that stuff. Like I said I was involved in a couple of Vintage Vette restorations where we wanted to keep the original parts intact. The fun part was the built in factory imperfetions had to be duplicated which were not there on jobber panels etc. It was great fun and one of our cars, a 64 split window coupe won a show at a concourse level. Very gratifying. If you ever come across a 63 or 4 Vette look near the front of the rear quarter panels. If they look like someone did a bad job of glassing them in, that was GM. If it's dead straight that's someone depreciating a valuable unit with bondo and block sanding. That's the stuff I'm talking about.

So having said all that I would be curious as to the imperfections in an original unit. Can you make these things too perfect? I know painters will skim tanks with bondo and block them out to get them perfect. Is that really desireable or if you have a perfect tank do you just strip it, prime (not filler primer) and do your paint?

You don't have to answer these questions however this is that type of stuff that gets my interest. When we do cars we even go to the lengths to put any production "check markings" in the correct places of the unit. These were usually done with grease pencil, paint dabs of certain colours etc. In my experience with Brit restorations I have never researched or done any of this. Should I go ahead with this unit the build will be as close to "correct" as I can make it, including assembly markings etc. if they were used and we know what they should be.

I guess I dive in with both feet which is why I'm knee deep in a Triumph custom I'm working on. It's killing me just because it had to be one of a kind and different!
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