Honda CB750 Sandcast

Restoration of Sandcast #97

markb · 814 · 327749

kmb69

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Frank's fork tubes are very nice and essentially identical to the OEM parts but they do have a Forking by Frank logo etched on them near the top. The logo is hidden by the headlight ears when assembled so it's not obvious. Another difference is Frank's tubes are chromed full length as are the current OEM tubes which may render this issue to be irrelevant.

I always believed the original tubes, at least thru the mid 70's, were not chromed full length. The chrome only extended to just above the steering stem clamp area. I may be wrong on this as I have had a couple of  guys swear that their early tubes were chromed full length. Maybe some were and some were not.

Back in the day, insurance companies would not pay for new tubes if they were only "tweaked" and could be "straightened". I personally straightened many a tube on v-blocks with a dial indicator on a hydraulic press and only saw full length chrome on models without enclosed headlight ears. I guess you could argue that the enclosed headlight ears trapped moisture and caused oxidation to occur in that area even if they were chromed. However, many of the damaged bikes I worked on were really new and wrecked by newbie owners.

Keith


kp

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Keith, I'm with you on this. I've never seen a set of K0 tubes chromed full length KP
Yabba Dabba KP


markb

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So that brings up a good question.  Are Frank's forks OK for a "correct" restoration or should I try to find some decent Honda replacements?  Makes sense that the top half deteriorates if its not chromed.
Mark
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


markb

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I’m about ready to pull the engine out of the frame.  Good time to inventory what I have and don’t have. 


Here’s the 19 liter tank all nicely painted.  Did I mention I was looking for a short-neck petcock?  Anyone?


Some of the other big goodies are:
Rolled rear rim


Double cut front fender




By the way, are the stays supposed to be straight?


2-hole rear fender (it appears to have a larger rolled edge that later fenders?)


I have the original carb bodies with the horizontal vent tubes (top).


I was lucky enough to pick up another early set complete with original (not repro) 28 tops, correct adjusters and rubber caps and a repro 5mm cable.


The top fork clamp is supposed to have a 23mm nose.  Not sure what that is.  Can someone explain that to me?


Smooth rubber oil lines.  I think they may be restorable.


Early brake caliper with knurled screws


Pointer-less kill switch knob control and master cylinder without oil level line


Early brake line fork with short neck oil lines.  Not sure if I’m going to be able to salvage them yet.


The frame is for a LH horn.  It that extra gusset for the steering damper?


Center stand without the gusset


Also I understand that the lower fork clamp, oil tank and swing arm are supposed to be date stamped for this vintage.  I’ve looked them over and found some numbers and letters but they don’t appear to be dates.  Any of you sandheads able to enlighten me?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 01:43:04 pm by mark1b »
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


markb

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Now the missing stuff.

It was missing the brake pedal (early one without the stop screw), exhaust of course and left hand horn.  Over the summer I scored on NOS brake pedal and NOS LH horn.  For the exhausts I got a set of reproduction Lotus Roots with baffles (arguably the biggest visual item on the bike to have correct).  A group of us from the SOOC club got together and got Yamiya to make a bunch for us.  Thanks again to Steve Swan for helping make it possible.  By the way, there may be extras for those of you with VINs up to 4148.  I was missing the kick start and gear shift lever but some used ones that I’ll rechrome.

Other stuff I’m missing:
•   Short-neck petcock (high priority)
•   Front and rear footpegs with (I can find these)
•   146mm rear footpeg bolts (I can machine down the 148mm bolts and replate them)
•   11mm stem rear-view mirrors (high priority)
•   Recessed ignition switch (worst case I’ll borrow the one from my K0)
•   Ignition switch bracket (I can find one of these)
•   Finless oil filter cover (I have one with the fins turned off that I’ll use if I can’t find one)
•   2 hole air box without reliefs (I trying to find out if LPM can supply a cover without the inner holes drilled and I think the mounting brackets can be modified for an exact copy)
•   Side covers (worst case I’ll use my repros)
I’m sure there are some more little things that I’ve overlooked for now.

I’d still like to find:
•   More smooth rubber oil lines
•   Brake lines
•   Tach and speedo cables with the short knurled nuts
•   -040 harness (I’ve got an extra in pretty good shape)
I know some of these are probably impossible to find but if anyone has a “spare” tell me how much you need for it and we can probably make a deal. 
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Steve Swan

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Hi Mark,

Thanks for posting, your documentary will be a thrilling saga !

The obscure missing parts, fuel tap, mirror stems - All i can say is,  Patience, Perseverance and Persistance, it's like fishing Mark, keep throwing out the hooks !  Holding on to the "3 P's", I eventually landed an original like new early seat (before Yamiya was making them)  and i eventually landed the 19 litre tank.  (Not to mention E254....!)  I bought a pair of mirrors and blinkers from same fellow atthe same time i bought the the seat from him, this was late 2005.  He said the seat, blinkers and mirrors were taken off the bike he bought new in early 69 to "chop."  Both mirrors/stems had identical (minimal) patina, appeared to be a 'matching' pair.  However one stem is 11mm and the other is 10mm.  (Same as what Chris Rushton found on his 302.)  (I'd be surprised if Honda knew or paid attention that some stems were larger diameter than others, when it came to waht parts went on what bike while being on the assembly line........)

Measured at it's narrowest point, the nose (separates tach/speedo and attaches both rings w/ single screw) should be 23mm.

The rear fender bead on 232 is larger but not as protruberant as bead on 2157 or 4363.

The gusset appearing to accomodate a steering damper is almost as inexplicable as the 6mm threaded hole on the early seat pan.  The gusset does suggest Honda had given thought to a steering damper (as seen in pictures of non-production machines.)

I don't recall seeing what looked like date markings on lower triple clamp, reportedly there are markings.  There are also stamped marking on the underside of gas tank tongue, again, don't look like dating methods i am aware of.  Wonder if these markings are a production batch markings.......

Date stampings located (as i recall) on, 1.  swing arm are on underside of LH arm, pretty much immediately aft of pivot, 2.  oil tank are on actual tank, next to inside of top rear bracket.



markb

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Some of you might notice that there have been edits on my posts that contain pics.  I was just changing the source of the pics.
Mark
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


kp

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I'll take some pictures of the 23mm horn as opposed to the early tree but in the interim here is a picture of the 2 units horn to horn  ::)

Yabba Dabba KP


kp

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Mark,
Have a look under the top triple tree and tell me if there is a number cast in the alloy in one of the recesses. Mine has a #4A on the underside. Here is a picture. Also the brake caliper has the early spacer between the halves. I remember reading somewhere that the very early calipers had a spacer added as the discs were a little tight on the early bikes. Could have been read on this board as Chris Rushton knows this sort of detail, but I did read it. As to the fender stay, yep should be straight.

Yabba Dabba KP


Steve Swan

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I find it interesting, confirming and unsurprising 97 has both oil lines smooth fabric, same as 232.  Chris's 302 has one webbed and one smooth line.

As far as finding those RARE parts, Mark.......  Scour ebay routinely and frequently.

If you could find an early vin parts bike........  I got a really nice set of early brake lines off 2157 for 232, but now i need a set for 2157......... !  :o


markb

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KP,
Where do you measure the 23mm vs. 25mm?  I'll check for that marking tomorrow.

Steve,
The oil lines are smooth but really don't have a fabric covering.  I'd call it rubber coated.

Mark
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


markb

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A couple more notes before I forget.  Most of the hex bolts were big 8's with what appears to be a dull finish.  There were some exceptions.  The three bolts on the top fork clamp were flat and appeared to be chromed which I think is correct.  One oddity was the 4 bolts that bolt the front fender stay to the fork lowers.  No 8's and they look chrome too.  The other was the screw that holds the gauge rings together.  The early part book (7/69 I think) shows a phillips screw and mine was a no 8 chrome plate hex head.  Who knows if they're original.
Mark
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Steve Swan

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Yes, early oil lines definitely rubber coated over a smooth smooth fabric.

You can see really good pics of 232's smooth lines in the "Restoration/Technical Support" part of the website.  They appear same as yours and are same as Andy Dixon's 175 oil lines.

Interesting, on the chrome appearing finishes of the four 6mm lower fender brace "8" bolts.  Who knows when these bolts could have been plated, i.e., from the factory -or- later on ?  The really good part on your bike is we are seeing for the first time details of the earliest vin yet given to public view.  The down side, is, we have no vin close to 97 to compare it to.  It would be nice if members with vins closest to yours would participate in this discussion.  The three 8mm upper triple clamp bolts i have seen on any sandcast are plain head, chrome plated.

I can say, 232 had all it's bolts (all early 8's) except the two 8mm pinch bolts for the center stand pivot pipe.  There were no chromed "8" bolts.  On another note, the special bolts fixing brake line banjos were chrome plated on the early bikes, not zinc as per later.

Speaking of "8" bolts........  Are your 4 special shouldered 10mm bolts fixing rear sprocket to the carrier, "8" type ?  

The 69/4 parts book shows a the typical Phillips fillister head screw fixing the ends of the 2 gauge rings together.  I don't know how i could debate the "8" bolt fixing your clamps together is not correct, but it is extraordinary to the convention of experience and literature.  Do you have a copy of the 69/4 parts book ?  69/7 book was the next printing after 69/4.

I have an incredibly clear and detailed color factory photograph (enlarged to 16x20 from a 3x4 (commercial size) slide transparency) of which appears obviously to be an early production (grey horn) red sandcast.  Also, numerous small b&w pics (as nowhere else) seen in the 69.6 "Set Up and Pre-Delivery Instruction Manual."  As well as numerous pictures from 24  different magazines from March 69-Apr.70.  When i "took delivery" of 232, i studied these pictures very closely, searching to compare what i found on 232 and to discover "what i thought" could be considered correct and original to early prod.bikes.  I don't remember seeing anywhere an "8" hex head bolt holding the instrument clamping rings together.  Again, in these magazines, these are pictures of probably (only) no more than 2 different early production bikes loaned to magazines for testing and evaluation.  One was red and one was blue-green, of which the latter was more photographed in the magazines than the former.  The Apr.70 Cycle Guide Magazine documents the blue-green bike was engined by vin E24 and also notes in the road test article the Cycle Guide testers did not have access to the bike until after other magazines had completed their testing of the bike.  This road test was one of the better (b&w) photograped tests a well as had the machine shown on the back cover in full color, as noted on our SOOC home page.  In contrast to all the other machines to roll off the assembly line, we don't know what parts they were fitted with.  So, like i said earlier, not sure how i could otherwise debate an "8" head bolt fixing those rings together is not correct.

Whew.  i don't know what i wrote is that helpful.

When it comes down to it, all we can do is share our first hand observations, compare to literature and make assumptions.  

And so, again, "THANK YOU " Mark for sharing your #97 with us !



Steve Swan

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Mark, i just noted what appears to be "the dot" (appearing faded red) on the RH side of your upper crankcase, pretty much directly accross from the vin pad.  It's interesting, seems, in past, members have noted some cases have these dots and others do not have dots.  the 2903/E3032 bike on ebay has same dot, only blue.  as i recall someone saying, these dots are only 2 different colors.........  someone, sometime ago, suggested the dot was for the body color designation the engine as to be fitted to................

none of the cases i have ever owned have ever had this dot or even a trace of having had a dot.  but i have seen the dots on engines i have not owned

anybody have a red dot on a believed original b-g machine or a blue dot on a believed original red machine ?

Also, KP, referring to the spacer in caliper, what do you mean by spacer ?  i have never heard about a spacer, but that does not mean anything.  Specifically, are you referring to "holder,caliper" pn 45115-300-030 ?  Are you saying there is an early and a late version of this part ?  (69.4 parts book)  My 3 other parts books, 71.2, K2 (print date unknown) and 74.1 all call for the same pn for the same part for vin #1 through end of K2.  Or, are you talking about a shim of sorts in addition to the "holder, caliper" ?  (Of course, we know the parts book is not an exhaustive reference source for these small differences made on the assembly line.)

232, 2157 and 4363 all came with what appeared to be the original caliper setup, but i did not notice differences in the caliper holder.  And i will admit, i was not looking for a difference.


kp

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Mark,
I've gone and dug out 2 from my stash of top triple trees. The narrow horned tree is from an under 1000 VIN bike. I have another narrow tree off VIN 1683. The wider horned tree is from a K1 although this tree is common to all K0s including sandcast from about VIN2000. You will see that the width of these trees varies by 2mm. I would suggest that given the powder coating each of the widths unpainted would be 20mm and 22mm respectively. I have also included photographs of what I believe to be date stamps on the underside of the tree. Kawasaki and I believe Honda used the Hirohito (?spelling and name) dating system on many of their parts. This system uses the birth date of the emperor as the base line in which 1969 is the 44 year from the emperors birth. Generally the full 44, 45, 46 etc is not used rather the last digit is used ie: 4, 5, 6 etc. My view is that these numbers are manufacturing dates. The use of the letter after the numeral is generally the month. Many Kawasaki parts are dated this way ie: disc rotors. so using this method the code 7H represents September 1972. Moving this theory to my triple tree numerals I have January 1969 (4A), March 1969 (4C) and March 1971 (6C) trees. Anyway here are the pictures of what you need to know Hope they help cos I aint digging this stuff out again  ;D
I might even post this in the technical section. What do you reckon   :-\ KP






Yabba Dabba KP