To restore or to refurbish?

[CB750faces.com (Lecram)]

Looking around in the oldtimer world, I see old bikes and cars who are or completely restored or refurbished or even left in the condition where they were found in.
Sometimes you need to restore and sometimes the condition is too good to restore. I decided to refurbish my K0 by painting the frame (parts), zincing the iron parts an changed the ripped and dried rubber parts. I left the original paint in it's old condition with some little scratches, I only have polished it.

What makes the oldtimer more worth? Should I repaint the red parts? Polish the aluminium or leave it how it is? And so on. The condition is great for it's age, but obviously not new.

[nmbr12]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder   ...   

[kp]

That should say ......... Beauty is in the eyes of the beerholder. The more beer the better looking they get

[nmbr12]

AND If more would be obnoxious to yer superfluidity,then yer sufficiency would be surrencified,Ehh!

[ashimotok0]

Bet you end up getting the paintwork re-done Lecram. From your posts you seem like a perfectionist (as I guess most people on this site are, including myself) and that old 'patina' will play on you, if the rest of the bike looks like new, until you get them re-finished. How about a second set of paintwork and keep the originals, as is?

Just my two-pennesh worth (sorry guys I meant cents  )

AshD

[CB750faces.com (Lecram)]

I am a perfectionist, indeed. That is also the reason that I made my own face plates. They must be perfect.

But I like the paint of my K0, because it is visible that the bike is more than 40 years old. I have re-chromed the rear fender and some other parts, but afterwards with some regret.

A couple of months ago I went to the superb museum of Ernst Louwman (http://www.louwmanmuseum.nl) in The Hague and he owns many old, unrestored cars. The history is visible in this cars and that opened my eyes more for this kind vision. In my opinion, old, unrestored, original bikes and cars do look greater than perfect restored bikes and cars. Sometimes you need to restore parts that are too worn or too rusty.

[Wayne]

This is another one of those debates that will go on forever. I have been thinking for over a year how I will approach the "restoration" of 576. I have no choice for the most part as the bike is aged, painted and modified. There is still however the decision on how do I finish particular areas. Take the fuel (petrol for KP   ) tank for instance. From what I have seen on a lot of bikes the painter just goes around the tank with the same process top, bottom and sides.

See tank on left. Looks pretty shiny:



Now my tank is like many others I have seen. The bottom is original and only has the red candy coat. Note as well there is no paint where the petcock goes. It didn't lift either. There is no evidence of paint on the gasket. I have seen other tanks with the same characteristics. Why/how was that accomplished in production?



I guess my point is, no matter how well we think we do on a "restoration" it is just that, a restoration. I think it was Steve Swan that said, the only time the bike was ever original was when it was in the crate.

I follow the Classic Car world quite a bit here in North America. There have been vehicles from the 70's that retailed for under $5000.00 at the time go through auctions for almost 300K! What I find interesting about the whole thing is that although some of these vehicles may only have 20 or 30 K miles on them they have had full, frame off restorations. I think from what I can get from that is that the serious buyers want that "correct" vehicle, but they want it to be like a shiny new coin if they are going to pay the big bucks.

Of course there are the exceptions like the 400 or so mile VW bike going for over 40K. Vic did document the tank fade and other items in the auction. The bike is 42 years old. How long before it is brought back to it's former glory and it becomes the next low mile shiny coin? My guess, not long.

For my bike I have decided to do the best I can. If I over restore it won't be anything that can't easily be undone. I may use an incorrect part due to lack of funds or availability but it will always be on my to do list. At the end of the day, I will have built it and it will be mine. Hopefully with the help of the members here it Will be a bike I can be proud of. Like the boys said, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. You are going to be your worst critic so do what is right for you. You won't regret it.

Sorry for the long winded respose. I just think this is a great topic and deserves input from as many as possible.

[Steve Swan]

Hi Wayne,

i am sure 576 will be a very lovely example when you have finished.  All of your points are "founded and grounded."  The end result is the owner/restorers, which is exactly as it should be.  There's no rule saying every sandcast should be exactly original nor any rule that says every sandcast should be chopped and sent over a cliff in flames....... 

From a "like original" restoration point, it's probably safe to say most of us always want as many original or "as original" parts as possible.  And, after the job is done, there is almost always some small detail that can be attended to or improved upon, later on down the road.

[Wayne]

From a "like original" restoration point, it's probably safe to say most of us always want as many original or "as original" parts as possible.  And, after the job is done, there is almost always some small detail that can be attended to or improved upon, later on down the road.

Steve, I'm with you 100% on that. I hope that I can get mine even close enough to call it "like original". Like I said, this "restore" and "correct" stuff has been floating around for a long time. To restore means "to return to its original or usable and functioning condition". In most cases the functioning part is easy. It's duplicating the "original" that gets messy. Lets go with a couple of little things most guys do on the sandcast. Engine paint. From what I have read the paint was very thin and in some cases almost non existent on the engine. Now the engines look all pretty and have multiple coats of new technology high temp paint that will probably never come off. Who knows if the color is even spot on. Then there is the color coat. The new paint will have UV protection built into it to protect it from sun fade and delamination. That technology didn't exist in the 60's. What about the actual painting of the parts. In my example above we see how Honda did it vs a restoration. (I'm not knocking the job in any way) Those are just a couple of examples of how the restoration may no longer be "correct" but in fact better than the original. The reality is, that is what concourse judges look for, absolute perfection. Some call it over restored.

So if we look at Lecrams dilemma here, he has painted frame parts, re-zinced fasteners, changed rubbers and so on. Personally I don't see where having the original paint with scratches in it is going to make the bike worth more than having a nice new paint job. If it were mine it would get paint and whatever else it needs to be spruced up. Just my 2 cents. 

[ashimotok0]

I have not got round to this on my bike yet but I think the most obvious point on many over restored bikes is the highly polished alloy, as opposed to the 'brushed' and lacquered finish on the original. I am trying to get hold of the pre-treatment process chemicals and lacquer used by a local aerospace company. I suspect that the pretreatment will be based on some kind of chromate etch, to help the lacquer adhere to the aluminium. Not sure on the brushed finish though. I think Markb did something on this in his excellent K0 restoration postings on the SOHC4 site. It was also mentioned in an article on Vic World but no 'trade secrets' given away on the finishing materials I am afraid.



Cheers

AshD

[Steve Swan]

Some vehicles are simply just so rare that to restore them would be the wrong thing to do.  Guessing the original Bugatti that surfaced a couple years ago in England will never be restored, but lovingly reconditioned, probably with at the most some minor refurbishing.  Guessing Vic's 443 mile 6xxx sandcast had, at the least, some minor patina that appeared over time, since leaving the show room, yet in such fine condition to command the price it did and to recondition, refurbish or restore anything on that bike, would be in my eyes, an outright and flatly wrong.  (to my way of thinking that bike is not meant to be ridden ever.)

Then, there is #97.......  Without being restored, not alot to enjoy in it's as is or refurbished condition, save the transient thrill of the initial aquisition.  Same for 232, 576 or 4363; all rollers and with missing or damaged parts, making no ssense dollar and enjoyment wise to leave in as is condition or try to refurbish.  To restore or not restore is a decision the owner will make.  Probably sometimes when restoring a vehicle, restoration may not have been the best thing to carry out, having been better to leave things mostly "as is" with some thoughtful reconditioning or refurbishing...... ?

With 2157, it will be a bit of what i call a bastard combination of reconditioning, refurbishing and restoration.  Sans toolkit, sidecovers, airbox, oil tank, exhaust and engine, the bike was complete, correct and original, right down to both mirrors.  Came with nearly 4 decades of layered on scum, but mercifully, no rust or corrosion.  Dismantled and carefully cleaned EVERYTHING.  Replaced old with new wheel bearings, seals, tires, chain, etc.  Black frame paint had numerous scratches, so out with the paint pen, followed by careful polishing with paint rubbing compound.  Some of the engine mount brackets, NO paint, so out with the single stage black spray rattle paint can.  I replaced sidecovers w/ Yamiya, airbox DSS, oil tank and tool kit Ebay.  Replaced all the perishable small rubber ancillaries.  E2241 cases came from a fellow member and building the engine using parts from other engines.  None of the covers will be polished.  The cases I've repainted (a first for me...)  New Yamiya seat cover and my local upholsterer's foam with original red foam to cover the seat pan breathing holes.  New Candy Blue-Green paint from the local painter.  New HM30's.  Overall, and from 5 feet, bike'll be looking pretty damn good and will have NO hesitation getting the thing wet or rained on or leaving it sitting in the sun all day while at work........  The gauges are original, the "red zone" is green, but i have replacement dial faces, from our Brother LeCram.   Should the fateful day of restoration ever come, which is likely doubtful, I'll just ride and enjoy 2157/E2241 until then.

[Wayne]

Steve you're probably right on that Bugatti Type 57S Atalante Coupe if that's the one you are talking about. A few years back may have been a different story though. It may have well been sent off for the big buck restoration. It's saviour was the concours preservation class. Its devotees prize originality over the bright and shiny, better-than-new restorations that for years have been the mainstay of top vintage-car events. It's now in a position to win in it's class in a concours event thus adding value to the vehicle. If the class were not implemented the owner would certainly have to restore the old girl to walk away with the coveted prize or just sit on a faded, rusty trimmed beast and hope it goes up in value. (if it could get higher than 4.5 Million!)