Honda CB750 Sandcast

Restoring VINs on frame

markb · 9 · 5174

markb

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I might have a lead on an early 1000's sandcast frame.  The problem is someone did some welding on the frame for maybe a fairing mount and covered up part of the VIN.  It's definately an early sandcast frame because it has the left horn mount.  How much does this devalue the frame?  Can the numbers be matched and restamped?
Mark 
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Riccardo

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Mark,

is possible to read the numbers?

Or they (all?) are covered from the welded part?

If you try to unassemble the added part you can try with chemical acid to discover the added metal in the welding fase.

It's a precision job.
Riccardo
Your Italian friend.
737/940 Restored
1081/1362 Preserved
1256/665 Restored - ex Owner: Chris R.
10253/10315 (K0) Next project
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III low ign cover - Restored
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III high ign cover - Restored
1971 - Kawasaki H1A - Restored
1973 - Kawasaki H1D - Preserved
1973 - Kawasaki Z1 Blackhead - Restored
1971 - Norton Commando SS - Preserved
1978 - Honda CBX - Unmolested Museum Quality
1988 - Honda CB 400SS - Unmolested
1997 - BMW R80 GS Basic - blue frame - Museum Quality
2007 - BMW HP2 Megamoto - blue frame - New


Wayne

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Mark
riccardo is correct. The police often use a method by where acid is applied to an area where a VIN is removed, ground off, whatever. As the acid reacts differently to the two metals the numbers will start to show through. It works well in instances where the VIN is stamped as the stamping process actually deforms the metal beyond the actual penetration of the stamp itself.

Being welded over might be a bit trickier. The key would be to carefully take the weld down to the same height as the virgin substrate metal. Perhaps then the acid may allow the numbers to come through.

It's a process though, not a procedure. Agencies have experts who us different acids, magnafluxing and other techniques to get the VIN to present itself. I saw it done on a Triumph that had the "pad" on the engine where the VIN goes. Earlier bikes didn't have the pad, so thieves would grind the pad off to make it look like an older t120 Triumph and stamp on some new numbers. The acid test would still expose the old numbers. Neat stuff! Good luck.

And....Where the heck do you find all this stuff!  ??? ;)
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markb

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The last 5 digits are readable (the most important ones).  The first part, CB750-10, is what's covered so we know what the whole number is.  Depending on how deep the weld penetrated, there may be areas underneath the bracket that may be undamaged and at least have partial characters.  Seems like the trick would be to repair the characters without making it look like it was tampered with.  I can see where the acid would help in identifying unknown characters but the metal that's filling the character depressions is what needs to be removed.  So maybe the acid would be helpful for that.

Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Wayne

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MArk
I have a friend on the base here who is maybe in a good position to get us an answer. I'll drop him a note right now.
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Riccardo

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Mark,

if possible and IF you want, post some photos.
Riccardo
Your Italian friend.
737/940 Restored
1081/1362 Preserved
1256/665 Restored - ex Owner: Chris R.
10253/10315 (K0) Next project
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III low ign cover - Restored
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III high ign cover - Restored
1971 - Kawasaki H1A - Restored
1973 - Kawasaki H1D - Preserved
1973 - Kawasaki Z1 Blackhead - Restored
1971 - Norton Commando SS - Preserved
1978 - Honda CBX - Unmolested Museum Quality
1988 - Honda CB 400SS - Unmolested
1997 - BMW R80 GS Basic - blue frame - Museum Quality
2007 - BMW HP2 Megamoto - blue frame - New


Wayne

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Mark
My friend over on the base says, send a photo. If you shoot one too me we'll see what they say.  :)
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Riccardo

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Mark,

cut the stay, but leave 2mm.

Do the other work, up to the base frame, by hand with much patience.

When you'll arrive to the plan level of the frame (where was the numbers), see if you note the different metal used by welder.
Riccardo
Your Italian friend.
737/940 Restored
1081/1362 Preserved
1256/665 Restored - ex Owner: Chris R.
10253/10315 (K0) Next project
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III low ign cover - Restored
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III high ign cover - Restored
1971 - Kawasaki H1A - Restored
1973 - Kawasaki H1D - Preserved
1973 - Kawasaki Z1 Blackhead - Restored
1971 - Norton Commando SS - Preserved
1978 - Honda CBX - Unmolested Museum Quality
1988 - Honda CB 400SS - Unmolested
1997 - BMW R80 GS Basic - blue frame - Museum Quality
2007 - BMW HP2 Megamoto - blue frame - New


markb

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Thanks for all the input.  I decided to pass on this one.  My conclusion is that to restore it so it doesn't look tampered with is probably next to impossible.  My opinion is that number is a huge part of the value of the bike.  Even if it's a legitamate number, if it looks faked I think it devalues it.   
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)