Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Lighting Systems and Chassis Electrical => Topic started by: Marcello Tha on June 27, 2013, 07:56:07 pm
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My parts number shows Stanley headlight like original part. I have seem almost all sandcasts with koito headlight.
What is the correct headlight brand, Stanley or Koito?
Thanks.
Marcello
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Stanley's were fitted to sandcast.
Koito's were used beginning the K2 era.
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Dear Steve;
The owners manual 69.7 at page 82, and the 70.3 at page 84 says "d. Install a new Koito sealed beam unit as described above or in an emergency an SAE 6012 can be substituted."
Stanley provided the parts that came with the bike and Koito the replacement parts?
Thanks.
Marcello
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Marcello, a great piece of investigative research on your part !
Perhaps you have unearthed another question for which there is no definite answer !?
i can only tell you what i know:
1. the 69.4 parts manual calls for Stanley headlight; pn "33321-505-003 unit, sealed beam (Stanley)" (we know what we have found in literature does not match what we find on actual motorcycle.)
2. the 69.5 and 69.7 owner's manuals call for Koito headlight.
3. the Stanley logo in center of headlight glass is a circle. The Koito logo is semi-rectangular.
4. researching all pictures from original factory literature and magazines of the period, every headlight i could discern a logo - appears semi-rectangular.... Koito !?!
5. K1 and earlier original appearing machines i have found only Stanley lamps, no Koito. K2-later machines, i have found only Koito.
6. i believe (and please prove me to be wrong!) the concensus with restorers is; Stanley was the headlight machines came with from factory. (for what it's worth, i have a picture (Jan.2004 Motorcyclist) of a Vic World CB750 who's headlight lens has a round logo, suggesting a Stanley headlight in place.)
i believe the common assumption amongst restorers is; machines came with Stanley headlights. However, the above evidence suggests machines may and may not have come with a Stanley. At this time, it appears, there is more evidence to support machines were fitted with Koito.
What we do know, is many parts we see fitted to sandcast are not exactly like what is depicted in pictures. However, looking at my original literature, i see only a semi-rectangular logo on the headlight lens.
Given what we think we know, i would say, at this point, Koito or Stanley; either is correct.
Again, Marcello, great job of finding a topic for debate !
ps - another for what it's worth....... i have Stanley's in 4363 and 232. 2157 i have fitted with a period aftermarket French "Auteroche" H4 halogen unit. (my original cue, believing Stanley the correct headlight, came from 69.4 parts book and Wyatt, "Original Honda CB750.")
and finally.... the Feb.71, 1st ed. K1 parts manual calls for same pn 33321-505-003, as 69.4 manual, but does not include "(Stanley)" as noted in 69.4 book.
the Jan.74 1st ed. K4 manual calls for, "33100-300-673, not available, use 33100-341-701." (two completely different pn's from 69.4 and 71.2 parts books !)
SAE 6012, i believe, is an automotive spec headlight.
if anyone knows the differences between these pn's please speak up !
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He's another aspect. For those not familiar with the reasons for this I will try and explain. This is required as right hand drive lighting and left hand drive lighting differ. Regulation in most countries requires a cut off design where a portion of low beam is required to illuminate the left side for RH drive and to illuminate the right on left hand drive. This is a requirement to ensure pedestrians and other hazards are illuminated whilst in low beam mode. I certainly don't know the full design detail however when importing a US motorcycle into Australia there is a registration requirement to either change the headlight glass or the headlight bulb.
There are 2 manufacturing processes for headlights.
Process 1 is where the light glass is the same no matter which country. Due to the low beam cut off requirement the bulb differs between left hand drive and right hand drive thus bulbs are not bulbs The headlight bulb for US and other LHD countries differs to those for RHD countries such as Japan, (all of Asia), South Africa and UK. For example with my CBX I was required to change the complete headlight because it was a sealed beam
Process 2 is where the headlight glass (lens) is not the same . One is required to change the light as opposed to the headlight bulb
I'm not sure if this is the reason for early differentiation however my early headlights are the semi sealed beam type that is with an inner bulb that is sealed into the headlight.
Just another thought
KP
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Being familiar with USA only spec, i've not seen anything but a sealed beam Stanley or Koito. and of course, we drive on the RH side of the road here.
i would think a SAE 6012 auto sealed beam prob casts a different lighting pattern from motorcycle spec sealed beam.
Will be interesting to hear other thoughts on Stanley vs Koito, were both used or one or the other ?
Given what Marcello notes in Owner's Manual and what i find in my literature collection, does appear Koito came on bikes.
I didn't find anywhere in original literature PICTURES of bikes w/ Stanley..... Only Koito. (I did not do an exhaustive search of every piece of literature i had, only the pieces with pictures obvious of a logo on the lens.)
Yet the early parts manuals call for a Stanley.
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Being familiar with USA only spec, i've not seen anything but a sealed beam Stanley or Koito. and of course, we drive on the RH side of the road here.
i would think a SAE 6012 auto sealed beam prob casts a different lighting pattern from motorcycle spec sealed beam.
Will be interesting to hear other thoughts on Stanley vs Koito, were both used or one or the other ?
Given what Marcello notes in Owner's Manual and what i find in my literature collection, does appear Koito came on bikes.
I didn't find anywhere in original literature PICTURES of bikes w/ Stanley..... Only Koito. (I did not do an exhaustive search of every piece of literature i had, only the pieces with pictures obvious of a logo on the lens.)
Yet the early parts manuals call for a Stanley.
Dear Steve;
I think that you did not found pictures with the Stanley Logo, cause the Stanley logo (in the circle) was used on later models, 1973/1974 onward.
The headlight part number used on CB750 was the same used on CB450's, and if i'm not wrong was the "Stanley 001-1014" model, a SAE M 12 V 50/35W headlight.
http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=stanley&inc_subcat=0&sort=20a (http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=stanley&inc_subcat=0&sort=20a)
Thanks.
Marcello
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Just in case anyone didn't do the math, that's around US$320 for a light WOW! :o
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What we know from literature, all early Parts Book list Stanley.
Owner's Manual mentions Koito (as well as advertising literature.)
I have not seen a Koito on a pre-K2 bike, hence my belief Stanley's were used on sandcasts. I've only seen Stanley's on every pre-K2 i've owned - between 10 and 15 bikes.
John Wyatt, who authored "Original Honda CB750," writes Stanley's were fitted.
Vic World says he's "Definitely have found both, and Stanleys on earlier bikes." Vic's probably seen more sandcasts than all the rest of us member's combined.
Considering the above, i'm going with Stanley or Koito is correct for a sandcast. i don't think we can say it is one light or the other.
Marty has a bunch of sandcasts and K0's, would be interesting to hear from him what he sees on his bikes.
That headlight in the picture posted does not look right, for some reason. i'd have to look at a Stanley, but the 3 pronged terminal does not look same as what i am used to seeing..... Nor do i see a logo in the middle of the lens......
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What we know from literature, all early Parts Book list Stanley.
Owner's Manual mentions Koito (as well as advertising literature.)
I have not seen a Koito on a pre-K2 bike, hence my belief Stanley's were used on sandcasts. I've only seen Stanley's on every pre-K2 i've owned - between 10 and 15 bikes.
John Wyatt, who authored "Original Honda CB750," writes Stanley's were fitted.
Vic World says he's "Definitely have found both, and Stanleys on earlier bikes." Vic's probably seen more sandcasts than all the rest of us member's combined.
Considering the above, i'm going with Stanley or Koito is correct for a sandcast. i don't think we can say it is one light or the other.
Marty has a bunch of sandcasts and K0's, would be interesting to hear from him what he sees on his bikes.
That headlight in the picture posted does not look right, for some reason. i'd have to look at a Stanley, but the 3 pronged terminal does not look same as what i am used to seeing..... Nor do i see a logo in the middle of the lens......
Dear Steve;
Another photo from the terminals for comparison.
Thanks.
Marcello
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i'd have to remove the headlight from my bike to see what the back looks like. does someone have a loose Stanley they can take a picture of the tower the terminals are on ?
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Most of my bikes are in storage at this time. Of the three sandcast bikes in the garage 151, 677, and 1849 these three have the Koito headlight. I will check the other bikes with in the next few days and post what i find. I can also post a picture or two of both headlights front and back. Marty K.
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Marcello can you post a few more pictures of the head light you posted earlier. One showing the front lens and bulb and one other a side view showing the height of the socket prongs to the back of the head light lens. Thanks Marty K.
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Thanks, Marty ! Looking forward to more findings !
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Here goes.
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I got a couple of these They have a big bulb inside but are a sealed unit.
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This sealed beam does not have the "STANLEY" logo in the center of the lens nor "MOTORCYCLE" on the bottom of lens. The outside back of the reflector has a brass tower the 3 terminals protrude from.
Stanley's sealed beam lights I've seen have:
1. "STANLEY" logo in center of lens
2. "MOTORCYCLE" in raised letters on bottom of lens.
3. glass tower with 3 terminals
Is this a motorcycle bulb ? Or is it automotive ?
If memory serves correctly, these brass towers are seen on sealed beams used on smaller displacement Japanese motorcycles..... ? (seem to recall reading this in a post, on this DB or elsewhere.)
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Dear Steve;
The headlight showed in the pictures is a Stanley HM24M/S model.
On internet i found one file that shows that this headlight is approved for Honda motorcycle part, see pages 3, 4 and 5 (yellow), not a car part.
HM-20/with Stanley HM-24M-S
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/VA_Motor_Vehicle_Approved_Equipment_List/11_Headlamp.pdf (http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads/VA_Motor_Vehicle_Approved_Equipment_List/11_Headlamp.pdf)
In my modest opinion, the Stanley headlight with the logo in the center could be a late production part, on ebay i found only this type on CB 750 from 1976-1980, and with the motorcycle write could be a generic part, just conjecture.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Honda-cb750k-cb-750-k-cb750-750k-headlight-head-light-/130795454078?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e74043e7e&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Honda-cb750k-cb-750-k-cb750-750k-headlight-head-light-/130795454078?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e74043e7e&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Honda-CB550-CB650-CB750-Four-Headlight-1978-CB-550-Head-Light-/330498567474?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4cf33fed32&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Honda-CB550-CB650-CB750-Four-Headlight-1978-CB-550-Head-Light-/330498567474?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4cf33fed32&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Honda-CB750-C-DOHC-Headlight-Lot-/330946127760?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0ded2790&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Honda-CB750-C-DOHC-Headlight-Lot-/330946127760?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0ded2790&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Honda-CB750-C-DOHC-Headlight-Lot-/330946127760?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0ded2790&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Honda-CB750-C-DOHC-Headlight-Lot-/330946127760?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0ded2790&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-CB750K-HEADLAMP-HEAD-LIGHT-LENS-33321-341-701-CB-750-K-A-1979-pw-/121119154884?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3343a2c4&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-CB750K-HEADLAMP-HEAD-LIGHT-LENS-33321-341-701-CB-750-K-A-1979-pw-/121119154884?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3343a2c4&vxp=mtr)
On Ebay there are a lot of CB450 headlights from the same era (K0/K1/K2) that donīt have the logo in the center.
I think that it is easy to find a CB450 Stanley headlight because it is a 12V 35/25W , that may last more than a 12V 50/35W , more difficult to find .
Could someone confirm that the original sandcast headlight is 50/35W?
I hope this can spice up our discussions.
Sorry about my English.
Thanks.
Marcello
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Stanley's were fitted to sandcast.
Koito's were used beginning the K2 era.
Just realized, my K2 has a Stanley Motorcycle sealed beam. I'm going to yank that baby out and use it in 576. Don't really care what's in my "rider" K2. :)
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At CB750 shop manual, dated 69/11 page 151, i found the information that the Headlight is 12V-50/40W.
Should be this the correct Stanley Sealed Beam Headlight for Sandcasts?
Marcello
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/Headlight1_zps28319e7b.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/Headlight1_zps28319e7b.jpg.html)
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/Headlight2_zps062f2c33.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/Headlight2_zps062f2c33.jpg.html)
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yes, that sealed beam appears what i believe correct for sandcast.
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There was a time in the mid 1980s ( I owned a Honda dealership at the time) that when you ordered the headlight replacement part number 33321-505-003
American Honda would send a GE # 5006 automotive sealed beam. They did not even bother to take it out of the GE package. Of course no CB750 ever left the factory with this bulb.
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yup, i remember going to Western Auto or Sears to get the automotive bulb.....
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I noticed that are two types of KOITO headlights.
The early type was the K0/K1/K2 model headlight, part number 33321-505-003 and 33100-300-673 for the assembly part number.
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/EarlyKoito_zps4b6ffd3d.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/EarlyKoito_zps4b6ffd3d.jpg.html)
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/_573_zps24a581e9.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/_573_zps24a581e9.jpg.html)
The part number 33321-505-003 was used on S600 Honda car on Headlight (LH). See Honda S600 parts lists attached below.
http://www.cmsnl.com/products/light-assyrightfront-winker_33400505610/ (http://www.cmsnl.com/products/light-assyrightfront-winker_33400505610/)
Below you can see a S600 with a Koito headlight, note the "2" (in red).
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/HondaS600_zpsd049e69a.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/HondaS600_zpsd049e69a.jpg.html)
The later type was the K3 onward model headlight, part number 33321-341-701 and 33100-341-701 for the assembly part number.
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/LateKoito_zps83916deb.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/LateKoito_zps83916deb.jpg.html)
Please, correct me if I am wrong.
What is the correct Stanley headlight for sandcasts, with or without the center logo?
Thanks.
Marcello
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Opinions from fellas?
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At CB750 shop manual, dated 69/11 page 151, i found the information that the Headlight is 12V-50/40W.
Should be this the correct Stanley Sealed Beam Headlight for Sandcasts?
Marcello
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/Headlight1_zps28319e7b.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/Headlight1_zps28319e7b.jpg.html)
(http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u576/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/Headlight2_zps062f2c33.jpg) (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Marcello_Malucelli_Tha/media/Headlight2_zps062f2c33.jpg.html)
imho, this is the head light of choice for any sandcast. IMHO.
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Someone can confirm that the correct koito headlight for sandcast have "2" on top and don't have "motorcycle" on the botton?
Marcello
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I need to say up front that I really don't know which is correct, however I don't believe the #2 on the top front glass should be considered a correct replacement headlight. IMHO it is incorrect KP
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I need to say up front that I really don't know which is correct, however I don't believe the #2 on the top front glass should be considered a correct replacement headlight. IMHO it is incorrect KP
Ditto that.
also, i cannot quit believing the Stanley "motorcycle" headlight is correct for sandcasts. Andy Dixon's very original unmolested 2 owner #175 has a Stanley headlight.