Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Gauges - Levers and Cables => Topic started by: markb on October 28, 2012, 01:45:33 pm
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After looking for a while, I finally located my early cables with the short nuts. (Another story, I've got too much stuff in too many different places. Not enough room in any one place so I got a storage locker where I'm consolidating everything except what I'm working on at the shop).
Anyway, does anyone know if there are differences between early and late cables besides the length of the knurled nuts? With a quick look that's all that I saw. Here's what I'm thinking. There is at least one company that makes up cables. If I could supply them with correct nuts it seems like it wouldn't be a problem to get a batch made (or if they had a drawing maybe they could do it all). According to the distinctions list they were used up to VIN 2157 so I think there would be a pretty good demand. When I get a chance I'm going to look at them more closely.
I probably could use the set I have on #97, they're just OK, but I've got a couple other VINs under 2157 so I could use a couple of sets. Who would be interested in a set? Unless there are other major difference this shouldn't be nearly as big a project as the mirror stems.
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Mark, i would be up for 2 sets.
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Hi Mark, count me in for 3 sets please. KP
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Put me down for 4 sets
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Put me down for a set!!
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Mark, You can count me in for at least 6 sets. Keith
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Here’s some pics of early and late speedo cable ends. The wheel drive ends look pretty much identical.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09035.JPG)
Here’s the gauge end. Obviously quite different.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09038.JPG)
At first I thought we could maybe make short nuts out of standard nuts. It’s hard to see in the pic but the short nut has a slight taper to it. Notice the early cable seems to have black tubing over the metal end. It this typical? Is it maybe a repair?
Also note the small hole in the metal end between the tubing and the nut. Is that normal? Is it a lubrication hole?
I need to locate one of my later tach cables so I can compare them too. Does anyone have pics of either they can post?
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Mark
Here is the tach cable from 576. I'm afraid my speedo cable is a replacement.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/tach_cable_1.jpg)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/tach_cable_2.jpg)
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The "short nut" speedo/tach cables that came on 232 & 2157; neither had the plastic tubing on the nut end; all have the hole. Not to say they may have had the plastic tubing at some time, but none do. I wondered what the hole is for as well; for lubricating is as good a hunch as any. That taper is another priceless little detail...
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
Wayne: It looks like the drive (engine) end of the tach cable is the same shape as mine but my drive ends appear to be black and yours appears to be zinc plated. Does your tach cable have the hole on the other end?
Steve: Do all four of your cables have the hole? What color are your drive ends?
Does anyone have a cable that has the plastic sleeve? If no one else has it I might suspect that it was a repair. Also does anyone have just a nut that came off a damaged cable? I'm reluctant to take a cable apart to be able to accurately measure the internal dimensions of the nut as both of my early cables are probably useable.
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Wayne: It looks like the drive (engine) end of the tach cable is the same shape as mine but my drive ends appear to be black and yours appears to be zinc plated. Does your tach cable have the hole on the other end?
Mark. Mine has some black still on the drive end of the cable. I thought at first it was sprayed when someone did some painting. No hole on the other end.
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I checked my tach cables (early and late) and they are all zinc plated on the drive end and they all have holes on the gauge end. All of my speedo cables are black on the drive end and have holes on the gauge end. The hole on the late one pictured above is covered by the nut.
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Mark, i'll check my 4 cables. I know all 4 are zinc plated and am certain all 4 have holes in them. (I remember asking myself, "What would be the reason for that hole?")
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Has anyone ever dealt with Motion Pro? I am talking to them about making cables if I supply the nuts. They want to see my cables before they make a committment so I will probably send them. Just wondered if anyone had any issures with them.
I looked closer at my speedometer cables and the black drive end is a hard plastic. Dimensionally it looks very close to the zinc-plated steel ends on the tachometer cables. It puzzles me as to why they would be different. Does anyone have speedometer cables with steel drive ends or tachometer cables with plastic ends?
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Would guess metal on engine and plastic on speedo has to do with the difference in temperature at the engine versus the speedo drive.
I have not seen any plastic on the tach drives.
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Sorry so slow to respond.
I checked 232 & 2157.
All 4 cables have exposed holes in the calbe end attaching to gauge.
Metal ends of tach cables attachingto engine are zinc plated.
The speedo cables have plastic ends attaching to the speedo drive.
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Would guess metal on engine and plastic on speedo has to do with the difference in temperature at the engine versus the speedo drive.
That makes sense that the tach cable end is steel. I wonder why the speedo end isn't steel. No matter, it appears that is the way they still make them. So all we have to do is find someone who will make them using short nuts. Including me it looks like 18+ sets so far. I'm surprised. I thought the demand would be higher for cables than for mirror stems. I'm going to send mine to Motion Pro and see what they can do.
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Count me in for a set Mark. :) Strange that my original short nut tach cable doesn't have the hole at the gauge end???
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I've known people who have had cables made by Motion Pro. MP's cables are very well made. Not sure MP would be able to withstand the rigors of duplicating a cable to A.S.S. standards. But, it is worth a try.
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Any other options? I'll gladly pursue them.
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So far Motion Pro is the only company that says they will consider making these custom cables. I haven't sent mine to them yet to confirm that they can/will do them (hope to get them out today). But they said the price for a custom tach or speedo cable would be $55 each. MP will sell them cheaper to a dealer but then he would have to add his markup. Add to that the cost of the nut. Still looking for a shop to make them but with plating I would guess they would be $10 to $20 each.
Two ways to procede after that. I could supply a batch of nuts to MP and have a bunch of cables made up or I could supply you guys the nuts and you could each work directly with MP (obviously a lot less work for me). That would also give you the option of taking nuts off your old cables, replating and using them. Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead here. I would want to get one set made up to check it them out first.
Based on feedback I received the tach cable will have a metal end at the engine and the speedo cable will have the plastic end. I'm not planning on having any made with the black sleeve on the gauge end. There should be a small hole on the gauge ends.
If none of this pans out I do have another crazy idea. I was looking at the flare on the gauge end and it might be possible to buy the standard cable, carefully "unflare" it, slip off the nut, replace it with a short nut and reflare it. The cables would only be about $20. I might play with one of my bad cables to see it that is feasible.
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Am I the only one with an original short nut tach cable that doesn't have a hole drilled at the gauge end?? Strange. :-\
Sounds like you're moving along nicely Mark. Keep us posted.
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I sent my cables to MP. Believe it or not they have a nut they say is pretty close. (Don't tell anyone but it's for a Harley). The rest of the parts for the tach cable sound close but the end for the speedo cable is different. I decided to have them make a sample of each to check them out. Should have them in about 10 days.
By the way, after inspecting the speedo closer before sending it off, I discovered that the black "sleeve" on the gauge end was a couple of wraps of black electricians tape. ::)
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Good show Mark. Champion :o
KP
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I got my cables from Motion Pro. Here are some pics of the gauge ends, speedo on left, tach on right, Motion Pro on bottom. Notice that the knurls did not extend all the way to the end on the Motion Pro nuts. They’re not tapered either but it’s difficult to see.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09508.JPG)
Here’s pics of the drive end, speedo on left, tach on right, MP on bottom. The speedo end of the MP cable has an extra groove and the tach end has some flats that the originals don’t have but the tach cable is actually pretty close.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09509.JPG)
The overall lengths and short piece of larger diameter covering look good.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09510.JPG)
They’re really not too bad. They’re not perfect but an easy option for close and with short nuts. On the bike one would have to look pretty close to spot the difference and there are maybe 10 or 20 guys in the world that would know what to look for anyway. I’ll probably use them on a later VIN but I’m looking for better for #97.
My next attempt will be to straighten out the flare and remove the nut on one of my old cables so I can measure it and get some nuts made. I could then supply them to MP and be a little bit closer but I might try buying some Honda cables and carefully straighten out the flare, swap the nuts and try to re-flare.
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Thanks, Mark for the update !
What would "one," say for example me, do IF i wanted to get a pair of these cables from MotionPro to run instead of my originals.. ? :)
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Call Joe at Motion Pro, 650-594-9600. I checked my packing slip and there wasn't a part number or description other than "Duplicate sample as close as possible". My sales order number might help, 170814. They may have a record. Otherwise he may remember what he did for me. If you decide to order and have a problem I could call him too. I may call him anyway just to get the part number for the nut. They were $55 each (which I think is a little high for something that isn't exact) but it was the best way to find out what they could do. Before you order, if you do, you might want to wait until I check if the nut has the right threads. I recall he told me the nut was a Harley item. I would assume they would make sure the thread matches but you never know.
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Call Joe at Motion Pro, 650-594-9600. I checked my packing slip and there wasn't a part number or description other than "Duplicate sample as close as possible". My sales order number might help, 170814. They may have a record. Otherwise he may remember what he did for me. If you decide to order and have a problem I could call him too. I may call him anyway just to get the part number for the nut. They were $55 each (which I think is a little high for something that isn't exact) but it was the best way to find out what they could do. Before you order, if you do, you might want to wait until I check if the nut has the right threads. I recall he told me the nut was a Harley item. I would assume they would make sure the thread matches but you never know.
Hi Mark, can you call Joe for me to recommend the same specification also for my cables? Short nuts, sizes, ecc.ecc.
I'll send an email to Joe recording your order #.
Please reply me on this post.
Thanks.
Riccardo
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That really is paying attention to detail mark, i think they were a bit naughty charging $55 per nut though, you could look at other bikes cables and possibly find a cheap cable with the nut same as yours, cut it off and sent it to them to build up a cable, i am going to look at some of my kawaski cables i am sure the fitting looks the same size, if it is ill get back to you
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i think they were a bit naughty charging $55 per nut though
That was $55 for the whole cable.
After looking at the drive end on the clutch cable, I think I can put it in the lathe and turn it to almost be a match to the original. With that in mind, if I send MP some correct reproduction nuts, I'd have something that was very close. I'll remove one of my original nuts and measure it up and look into manufacturing them.
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I measured the tach cable nut from 576. The taper is about .5 mm. For you guys still in the stone age that's about .0196". ;) Is that what you are seeing Mark?
What I would like to know is...why does everyone else seem to have a hole on the gauge end yet the tach cable from 576 does not?? Were there different cables made, some no hole, hole added later...or did mine simply miss the process? Another unanswered question in the world of the beloved sandcast. :)
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I measured the tach cable nut from 576. The taper is about .5 mm. For you guys still in the stone age that's about .0196". ;) Is that what you are seeing Mark?
Yes. You really have to look close to see it.
What I would like to know is...why does everyone else seem to have a hole on the gauge end yet the tach cable from 576 does not?? Were there different cables made, some no hole, hole added later...or did mine simply miss the process? Another unanswered question in the world of the beloved sandcast. :)
I'm feeling a little stupid here since in a earlier post I indicated that all my tach cables had the hole. I just checked and the tach cable from #97 does not have a hole. :o ??? So you're not crazy Wayne. I see that Steve's #232 tach cable had a hole. Maybe we can assume from this that some of the early tach cables did not have holes and obviously some of them did. I'm guessing that getting a fitting for the tach cable without the hole will be a problem and that using one with a hole will be correct enough. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Mark, "stupid" is being a tad harsh. ;) Details are so easily overlooked on these bikes. Go easy on yourself! ;) Being that my early tach cable is a "no hole" and in excellent shape other than some paint on it I'm going to try and restore the zinc on the fittings and I assume nut? Now, I wonder if my original speedo cable was a "no hole"? Does this fall into the category of another "distinction"? Looks like they may be random unless we can prove otherwise with a vin breakpoint. Steve's 232 has kind of thrown a wrench into that theory, unless the cable was replaced for whatever reason when short nut cables were available through Honda parts dept.
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I checked the cables on the gauges and they fit great. I just wanted to make sure the threads in the nuts matched. For anyone who wants to know the thread is M12 x 1.0 (different than the M12 x 1.25 threads elsewhere on the bike).
Riccardo (and those interested in getting a set of these) I talked to Joe and they do not document the custom cables. You will have to send your cables and ask for cables to match as close as possible to yours (and they will be different as indicated in my previously posted pics). If you only have cables with standard length nuts you will have to request using the shorter nut. Joe said there is only one so that shouldn't be a problem.
I'm still planning on trying to manufacture some correct nuts. If I supply nuts and my old cables Joe said he could make them up. If you're interested in using correct nuts and are willing to wait that is another option. However, at this point I'm not sure how soon that will happen or how much it will cost. I have to get one off the old cable and measure it up and check around for manufacturing. Then I would have to decide if I would just supply nuts and let everyone else pursue their own option or get a batch of cables made.
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Wayne,
I believe you will find that the nut itself is not zinc plated, actually being made from some aluminum alloy material, much the same as the "sandcast" drive body on the back of the clocks theirselves. The nuts therefore tend to clean up pretty well, just the zinc fitting on the end of the cable itself to deal with.
Cheers - Chris R.
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Good observation! I just put a magnet on my originals and they are definately not steel. A file shows that they are too soft to be stainless. The MP nuts are not steel either. It sure is good to have more than one set of eyes looking at these details. :)
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Just to add another angle to this subject...
#302 came to me with its original short nut tacho cable, but later long nut replacement speedo cable. Both cables were in good condition, so the tacho one was simply cleaned and re-used. the speedo cable nut was shortened (still on the cable) and then re-used. Pictures below for comparison. Obviously the modified speedo cable does not have the slight taper, but good enough for me. To shorten the speedo cable nut, a small hose clip was fastened around it to provide an edge to cut surplus material from the nut lower edge, then moved little to provide an edge to file / polish away the "splines" to create a nut close in appearance to the tacho cable one. Fortunately there was enough surplus material on the nut to enable shorteneing and still be able to attach to the speedo drive. It was easier to do than I feared, just care an patience - oh, and I did prcatice on an old scrap cable first!
Cheers - Chris R
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Chris,
That's another good option. Especially knowing now that they're not made of steel.
Mark
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Yes, agreed. Chris and i batted this one around on personal email.
Based on Chris's experience, I also used my lathe to turn down a long nut to short nut length.
I used a piece of PVC tubing to keep the cable from flailing about in the lathe.
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Just to add another angle to this subject...
#302 came to me with its original short nut tacho cable, but later long nut replacement speedo cable. Both cables were in good condition, so the tacho one was simply cleaned and re-used. the speedo cable nut was shortened (still on the cable) and then re-used. Pictures below for comparison. Obviously the modified speedo cable does not have the slight taper, but good enough for me. To shorten the speedo cable nut, a small hose clip was fastened around it to provide an edge to cut surplus material from the nut lower edge, then moved little to provide an edge to file / polish away the "splines" to create a nut close in appearance to the tacho cable one. Fortunately there was enough surplus material on the nut to enable shorteneing and still be able to attach to the speedo drive. It was easier to do than I feared, just care an patience - oh, and I did prcatice on an old scrap cable first!
Cheers - Chris R
GREAT IDEA!
I'll try.
Thanks.
Riccardo