Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => Member's Bikes => Topic started by: 42barab on May 20, 2018, 07:17:56 pm
-
Just took possession of fr 2659 with engine 2839. Pics attached. Bike and engine were fully restored with NOS parts in 2004, and the previous owner put about 750 miles on it.
One question concerns the center stand. In the up position, the foot leverage bar just misses the end of the rubber bumper stop, hitting the lower muffler just in front of the rubber bumper, which seems loose, maybe needs replacing (see attached pic). Exhausts seem to be properly attached at the cylinder and the mounting points, and nothing is loose on the stand. It's as if the bumper is in the wrong position, or the stand is incorrect. Seller claims NOS was used to replace everything that needed it, including all four exhausts with HM300 stamps. Any feedback is welcome.
-
Update: Upon closer inspection, with the bike on the center stand, the rear tire sits about 1/2" above the floor. (The rear tire on my 1973 sits about 2" above the floor.). Shorter stand? This could explain why the stand doesn't contact the rubber bumper on the exhaust pipe. There are a couple of eBay stands that appear to be correct and only need cleaning, derusting, and painting. They're not from a Sandcast but should fit the bike properly.
-
Update: Upon closer inspection, with the bike on the center stand, the rear tire sits about 1/2" above the floor. (The rear tire on my 1973 sits about 2" above the floor.). Shorter stand? This could explain why the stand doesn't contact the rubber bumper on the exhaust pipe. There are a couple of eBay stands that appear to be correct and only need cleaning, derusting, and painting. They're not from a Sandcast but should fit the bike properly.
probably stand legs are spread. if you remove stand should be easy to visualize or evaluate with a straight edge. i do not know if there are differences between later 'sandcast' stands and later cb750 stands, but i would not be surprised if there are, e.g., different cuts of stand feet, cuts of gussets connecting legs, welds, etc, etc. by "later" 'sandcast' stand i mean somewhere between vins 1100 - 1200, the strut was added.
-
Steve,
Thank you for your feedback. Since I'm 2659, then mine is later. I agree that early 750 stands may have had some differences. The stand feet measure 6-1/2" between the feet; the 73 stand measures 7-3/8". The 73 does have the extra strut welded on the outside of the left foot; the sandcast does not. And all the "drawings" of a CB750 stand, from 69 to 76, on parts houses websites (e.g. Partzilla, CMS, Yamiya), and pictures on EBay, all depict the stand with the strut.
I agree that early 750 stands may have had some differences, but in this case the suspect stand in the attached pic shows a horizontal cross member, which looks a lot like a CB500/550 stand. Smaller rear tire, lighter bike, narrower foot width - I think that's the issue. I should have thought of this first. Thank you again for your input. I'll see how an eBay stand works out.
J
-
Steve,
Thank you for your feedback. Since I'm 2659, then mine is later. I agree that early 750 stands may have had some differences. The stand feet measure 6-1/2" between the feet; the 73 stand measures 7-3/8". The 73 does have the extra strut welded on the outside of the left foot; the sandcast does not. And all the "drawings" of a CB750 stand, from 69 to 76, on parts houses websites (e.g. Partzilla, CMS, Yamiya), and pictures on EBay, all depict the stand with the strut.
I agree that early 750 stands may have had some differences, but in this case the suspect stand in the attached pic shows a horizontal cross member, which looks a lot like a CB500/550 stand. Smaller rear tire, lighter bike, narrower foot width - I think that's the issue. I should have thought of this first. Thank you again for your input. I'll see how an eBay stand works out.
J
J, nice reply and good study of diff.stands, interesting the 73 stand is wider spread between feet than stand on your sandcast, but then you made another observation perhaps vital to what stand is on your sandcast. If Chris R. sees your thread, he is very knowledgeable pretty much about all sohc 4's, he likely can contribute the info you seek.
-
A picture of the stand itself would be helpful. I am pretty sure that 500/4 and 750 F2 mainstands can be fitted to the K series 750's, but without a picture can not comment further.
Chris R.
-
A picture of the stand itself would be helpful. I am pretty sure that 500/4 and 750 F2 mainstands can be fitted to the K series 750's, but without a picture can not comment further.
Chris R.
J! i suggest you follow Chris's lead.
-
tried to send twice, file too big, retook, pic attached.
-
def.not a cb750 stand. good job posting pic, after you've done it once, it's eze peezee
-
To Steve or Cris R.
Attached is a pic of a CB550 main stand from the CMS website. Would you agree that's what I have?
-
To Steve or Cris R.
Attached is a pic of a CB550 main stand from the CMS website. Would you agree that's what I have?
i would put more stock in what Chris will say, about all i can say is it sure looks like it.
-
Thanks, Steve. I'll wait for Chris' reply. J
-
It does indeed look to be a CB500 / CB550 stand. So, looks like you just need to find a good CB750 stand, and problem solved.
Cheers - Chris
-
Thank you both for your interest and your feedback.
-
the other thing i would add, you mention your bike has nos HM300 exhaust. HM300's were not fitted to any sandcast from the factory. the value of HM300's have gone through the roof. worth as much to the right buyer as lotus roots Yamiya sells. your vin came with lotus roots from the factory.
-
Steve, Thanks for the tip. It is disappointing to learn about the mufflers and the center stand, but at this point, I'm trying to figure out what I have, so your information is helpful. For future reference, where would I look to research this type of muffler information?
If I understand correctly, my stamped NOS HM300's are valued about the same as Yamiya repro Lotus Roots? And for the sake of the bike's overall value, should I be looking for lotus roots to replace the HM300's? I'm thinking I might try to make as much correct as possible. Thanks. J
-
J, you still have a mighty damn fine looking LH horn vin, so don't get too blue. the quickest place to look is in "88 Distinctions" on forum, (now probably about 120 distinctions) and the other place is on the website, "Production models" area lots and lots of info there. don't feel too badly about those two items being incorrect on your bike, as the stand is easily remediable and the HM's are valuable, going by what people are asking for them on ebay. i don't know if Yamiya is still selling lotus roots, i seem to recall they were a few moths back. probably be a good idea to compare the info on the forum and the site and compare to what you have on your bike. and if you will, post some good close up pics of various parts of bike on your thread here. i was just looking at pics of your bike again, and the rear shocks are not the "7-spring" type. the seat appears to be a very lovely original, at least from what i can tell in pics know that what you are finding on your bike should be of no surprise and is what comes with a 49 year old motorcycle which can have gone through many lives or changes.
-
Thanks, Steve. Yes, I like the total package very much, and I knew it would be a "labor of love". Based on the seller's description, I was hoping for more originality. By "seven spring" you mean the number of exposed coils?
Regarding the mufflers, I think I've read here that the LR's were different from the HM300's because they had less internal restriction, a different baffle, and no brake pedal indent. But I haven't yet come across why they were called LR's?
I can post more pics and I'll read the areas you suggested. Thanks
-
Thanks, Steve. Yes, I like the total package very much, and I knew it would be a "labor of love". Based on the seller's description, I was hoping for more originality. By "seven spring" you mean the number of exposed coils?
Regarding the mufflers, I think I've read here that the LR's were different from the HM300's because they had less internal restriction, a different baffle, and no brake pedal indent. But I haven't yet come across why they were called LR's?
I can post more pics and I'll read the areas you suggested. Thanks
Yes, 7 exposed springs.
the term lotus root is non-american. years ago, i uploaded pics of original lotus root baffles and mufflers, took detailed measurements of mufflers, etc, stc, these pics are all in the website; this was very shortly before yamiya reproduced the lr exhaust because i remember stewing over the fact i only had 3 lr's and the 4th was a "no.no" exhaust, this was during the time i was trying to make 232 correct. i would encourage anyone who has more than a passing or greedy interest in things sandcast to explore the website, there is a TON of info in the website many people don't bother to explore, because they are interested in a quick answer, or a quick sale, e.g., https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=cb750%20k0%20sandcast%20and%20diecast (https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=cb750%20k0%20sandcast%20and%20diecast) as far as i know, Yamiya coined the term when they produced and made available the lr's during 2006. at that time, i asked the folks at yamiya, "why lr?" they said the removable baffle is shaped like a lotus root. the lotus flower is a highly sacred symbol, any quick google search will give you info - https://www.lotusflowermeaning.net/ (https://www.lotusflowermeaning.net/)
the lr exhaust have no internal baffling except one plate to hold the baffle in place, and no stamping, i.e, "HM300". the second version of the exhaust fitted to sandcast is what the Japanese refer to as the "no.no" exhaust, the muff's have internal baffling as well as the removable baffle which is different from lr baffle, asd for that matter, the lr muff's are different from the "no.no" muff's. common knowledge for anyone having more than passing interest in sandcast CB750's, knows lr's were fitted to vin's E1-E3149. "no.no" exhaust were fitted to vin's E3150-E7414, and have no stamping, i.e., no HM300.
A question for our good friend Gerard of France - What type of exhaust are fitted to the "French Sandcast" bikes?
-
A question for our good friend Gerard of France - What type of exhaust are fitted to the "French Sandcast" bikes?
To answer your question Steve,
The French Sandcast and K0 had HMCB750 exhausts and the location of the marking was in the same place as on the HM300 and their sound was powerful and deep...;)
-
A question for our good friend Gerard of France - What type of exhaust are fitted to the "French Sandcast" bikes?
To answer your question Steve,
The French Sandcast and K0 had HM CB750 exhausts and the location of the marking was in the same place as on the HM300 and their sound was powerful and deep...;)
Gerard, "HMCB750" were European exhaust? And, stamped "HMCB750" ? Is Phillipe still around?
-
Gerard, "HMCB750" were European exhaust? And, stamped "HMCB750" ? Is Phillipe still around?
Yes, they also equipped the CB750 K1 in France...
What Philippe are you talking about ??? philcad750 ?
-
i believe there used to be a fellow named Phillipe who lived in France who had a French sandcast.
-
Here is the link... http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.0.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.0.html)
-
J,
I am not sure that the tachometer is correct on your bike, very hard to tell from the photo, but looks to have diecast tachometer.
Can you send a better photo of the tachometer side view where the cable connects, so we can verify?
Best,
Duane
-
Duane, Attached is tachometer side, face, and frontal view. Other pics as well. As I read through the "88" Model Distinctions, I'll add more detail pics. Your feedback is appreciated.
-
And these
-
And...
-
And this. More to follow.
-
J,
I know you might not want to hear this, but the tachometer is a diecast version, the speedometer looks to be a late diecast with straight housing.
The brake master cylinder cap is from a 1971 or newer CB and not correct for your Sandcast.
Best,
Duane
-
Agree with Duane. The speedo is one of the reproduced Honda types, the drive of which was used on the Z1 Kawasaki. For your info, a number of the bolt heads have the belted egg style logo seen on later non-sandcast machines. Correct heads have the #8. The bolts on the master cylinder clamp are from a Kawasaki Z1 which have a 7 on the bolt head face.
Please don't take this as being critical of your bike. I, as do many members of this forum, give feedback to new members for assistance in making their machines as close to original as possible.
In regards to the tacho drive, post a wanted ad on the forum to see if someone has a correct sandcast drive they may wish to sell.
For your info, here's a link to a tachometer that has the later drive as used on the Z1 Kawasaki
KP
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Honda-CB750-Sandcast-Tachometer-Gauge-CB-750-Tach-CB750K/362335026051?hash=item545cd9bb83:g:qbcAAOSwlV9a80ax (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Honda-CB750-Sandcast-Tachometer-Gauge-CB-750-Tach-CB750K/362335026051?hash=item545cd9bb83:g:qbcAAOSwlV9a80ax)
PS The indicator (blinker) lens is the superseded type which was fitted to machines after 1972 in the USA. You can find the earlier type for sale by eBay sellers outside the US for a few dollars each. Honda made over 40 million Honda cubs and the early type lens was fitted from around 1975 so they are plentiful. :)
-
J,
KP has the eagle eyes and is so very knowledgeable on all things Sandcast. The Corvette society certifies it's correct cars with a Bloomberg Gold Status, my wish is to have my Sandcast bikes certified KP Gold by KP, he sees many details others miss.
If my bike pass his judgements, I know they are factory correct for the VIN range.
Like KP stated, hope you don't take this feedback as being critical, we are just trying to help ensure you have a correct bike.
Best,
Duane
-
I tend to be too sensitive sometimes, but I do appreciate your feedback. I see it as constructive criticism, intended to teach and improve, not tear down. It does sting a bit, but I have to act like a grownup. I think it's great that you share your knowledge. I welcome feedback like this to know what I have and what I need to do. The bike was billed as being restored with NOS, but I don't think the word "correct" was in the listing. Silly me.......I made some mental assumptions.
BTW, I am impressed by the depth and breadth of your knowledge, and I hope to learn from it as we go. I see it as a good thing, definitely helpful and appreciated. J
-
So if I understand correctly, I need a brake pedal (just bought it), turn signal lenses, and bolts. When you say speedo "drive" and tach "drive" you are referring to the complete gauges, or some component of the units? I looked at the link to the tachometer, but I'm not sure what I should be focusing on. J
-
One other thing (for now): by eBay sellers are you referring to companies like Yamiya and CMS? Or just search eBay by part number? And If I buy a parts catalog like those on eBay now, does it need to have a print date of 1969 or would later versions (like 70 or 71) cover the earlier bike's? J
-
Duane is way to generous. Many of the fellows on this site, including Duane, know plenty of stuff. I just like studying the detail. You don't need a pedal as the one you have is correct for your bike. Try and get a parts manual around 69 although you need to have a good read of the site as there is a PDF version of a parts manual on the site somewhere I thought.
The actual drives are the alloy part that the cable end attaches to These are held in the gauge housing by 3 phillips head grub screws. Simple enough to swap out if you get a correct drive
-
Sorry, but I'm a bit unclear about what's what. I should look for both a speedo and a tach drive? The speedo gauge is a reproduction of a diecast, and the tach is genuine Honda but for a diecast? So if the gauges and their drives aren't Sandcast correct, why replace just the drives? Do the Kaw drives yield incorrect gauge readings? Why not look for complete correct units? J
-
Original gauges fitted to sandcast bikes had removable drive units, which were their selves sandcast. Drive cable entry into the drive unit is offset to the right of the centre line of the gauge.
Speedo fitted is a later (Honda supplied) replacement with cable entry central to the gauge. The drive assembly on these late replacements does not remove from the gauge, hence complete gauge would need to be replaced with one with offset cable entry into a sandcast drive unit.
Tacho fitted has a die cast drive unit whereas original was sandcast, so either need a complete gauge with sandcast drive, or just a sandcast drive unit to swap (you can remove the die cast unit from the gauge).
Hope the above helps clear things up.
Chris R.
-
J,
This site is a wealth of information on all things Sandcast, you might have to dig a while but the site contains tons of information.
I am attaching a picture of two gauges for your reference. The right gauge is a Sandcast gauge and the left one is a diecast gauge, so you can see the cast surface on the drive gear.
It is possible to swap out just the gauge bases, but finding Sandcast drive gears even with the entire gauges included might take some searching.
Hope this helps you see and understand the difference.
EBay sellers are just the goods found for sale when searching EBay, beware as many sellers call items "Sandcast" that are in no way Sandcast items, research and know what you are purchasing.
Best,
Duane
-
Thanks for the pics and the clarification of the differences between a Sandcast and die cast drive. I think I get it. In the picture, the diecast drive also has two screws instead of four, and a "ledge" just below the threads. It looks like the screws fasten a cover over a worm gear drive. Is this something that needs to be lubricated?
-
Sorry for any confusion, but both drives have fours screws, the two screws are missing from the diecast gauge. The chrome cover is held on by these two screws.
DW
-
A question for our good friend Gerard of France - What type of exhaust are fitted to the "French Sandcast" bikes?
To answer your question Steve,
The French Sandcast and K0 had HM CB750 exhausts and the location of the marking was in the same place as on the HM300 and their sound was powerful and deep...;)
Gerard, "HMCB750" were European exhaust? And, stamped "HMCB750" ? Is Phillipe still around?
"HMCB750" only in France, Germany and Netherland on sandcast, K0 and K1
With unique diffuser. Neither those of HM300 not HM341 will fit.
(I think I snapped one of the very last sets the other day)
Italy, UK etc. "HM300" as ROW
-
Just came across this eBay listing for a Sandcast tachometer. Wondering if it's the real thing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Honda-CB750-K0-Sandcast-Tachometer-Gauge-CB-750-Tach-CB750K-/302732672471?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIM.MBE%2526ao%253D2%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D63d483db01af4c6eab72d195827cb847%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D7%2526rkt%253D16%2526sd%253D173345163965%2526itm%253D302732672471&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460&redirect=mobile (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Honda-CB750-K0-Sandcast-Tachometer-Gauge-CB-750-Tach-CB750K-/302732672471?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIM.MBE%2526ao%253D2%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D63d483db01af4c6eab72d195827cb847%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D7%2526rkt%253D16%2526sd%253D173345163965%2526itm%253D302732672471&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460&redirect=mobile)
-
link leads to a wrinkle tank.
-
Last night it linked to tach. Just now from my watch list, I tried to look at the item and it opened the wrinkle tank.
-
That wrinkle tank is not worth $40 let alone $400
-
I think that's a new ebay feature - it automatically links you to a 'similar' item to the original one you were looking at. You have to click on the 'listing' link to go to the actual item. Im not a fan of the new feature....
-
John,
I had already posted that same link in a previous post pointing out it was the later Z1 style (ie Not to be confused with a real sandcast instrument)
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,2041.msg14780.html#msg14780 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,2041.msg14780.html#msg14780)
-
kp I thought it was a different listing. But it sold right after I posted my question about it. Maybe should have PM'd the question. Thank you for your feedback. J
-
Hello Uli,
Can you give me a picture of the HMCB750 baffles on the exhaust side?
Thanks ;)
-
Come ça?
-
Yes Uli... Perfect, Thanks
-
You guys need to take those baffles down to the rivers Seine and Rhine and bid them a Bon Voyage ;D Using those baffles will suffocate your engine and the rider
-
On 2659, discovered a very slow brake fluid leak dripping from the bottom of the lever hinge bolt. Can't get a grip on the snap ring with the snap ring pliers because the plunger is in the way. Some videos say to take pressure off the ring by depressing the plunger, and pry the ring out with a pick, but that didn't work. If I could find a way to hold the plunger down, I might be able to get a proper grip on the snap ring. Need some ideas.
Also, attached pics show the bike's master cylinder on the right and one I picked up at a swap meet on the left. The bike's has markings inside and on the bottom, a very shiny finish inside, and seems to have a painted finish, which smudges and comes off easily with brake fluid or carb cleaner. The metal under the paint appears gray, while I think the left pic shows an anodized finish. I'm wondering if either is sandcast-correct? What is the correct finish?
-
Made some progress today. With a vice, a pick, and a chopstick managed to pry the snap ring out. The question of correctness still remains. On to cleaning.
-
Another question about the master cylinder assembly, or more specifically, the brake lever. I have a 69 parts book that shows a lever adjustment screw (45518-300-003) with a locknut (94002-08000-0S) on the underside of the lever bracket. Both Yamiya and Partzilla show a no-adjustment lever stop (sans PN or description), and an inset box with the adjuster design. Yamiya lists a "Lever System Tuning Set" that includes the lever stop and some bolts. The option diagrams show a "tongued washer (45525-300-000) and Partzilla notes "Use from SN 1027687". The lever stop design is on my bike. Was the lever adjuster an option or part of an evolving design? And which would be correct for 2659?
-
Here are pics from the Yamiya and the Partzilla sites.
-
Answers one of your questions
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,52.0.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,52.0.html)
The lever adjustment screw and lock nut is common to Master Cylinders (MC) of all K0 bikes
The MC on the right (poorly painted) should be black anodised as are all the K0 MCs
K0 MC have no casting numbers/letters on the outer housing so that one is not K0
The mirror stem receiver of the K0 MC is shorter in height to the K1 onwards
Most questions have answers throughout the forum posts and on the website
I would recommend you take the time to read Marks's 97 restoration story. This nearly 50 page restoration story is, IMHO, a pocket guide to most of the nuances found on a sandcast motorcycle even if it relates to an early frame number
There is also the SOOC website which still has much relevant information. A good photo of the shorter height mirror receiver awaits ;D
-
OK. Will do. Thanks
-
I think the adjustment screw can be bought. Does it thread into a MC perch that originally had just a stop, or did Honda produce a perch just for the adjustment screw design.
Also, I think I need to smooth the MC's cylinder bore a bit, just to be sure. I bought a 1/2" flexible honing brush (small balls wrapped around a wire core) with a grit of 320. If this is too abrasive, what size hone and what grit should be used? Thanks
-
Question about the steering Lock: Tried to use the steering lock and discovered that 2659 came with a plastic steering lock cover, but no steering lock. I had bought a spare ignition key from a fellow in PA, who later sold me a NOS steering lock with keys. Tried to install that with a key inserted and turned so that the locking pin was in line. The tumbler wouldn't go in. Looked at my 1973 to compare, but it has a different set up. See attached pics. What is the correct way to install the steering lock? As seen in the pics, was the Sandcast steering lock housing on the frame different from that on later bikes?
-
The steering lock, if I recall, is held in place by the black plastic cover when not engaged. To install, slide the lock up and engage it locked. This will hold the lock in place so you can fit the black plastic cover
Yes the K0 is different to later models They have an additional round ring fitted to foil theft so the story goes.
-
KP
I appreciate your feedback. After applying a little cleaning, filing, and bending to the lock receptacle, the procedure you described worked like a charm. Thanks
John
-
As an update, I've acquired a two-hole airbox and a speedometer, both taken off another Sandcast. The airbox has been poorly repainted in silver and has two fractures; the speedo needs serious TLC. I'm starting a new post to get some feedback for moving ahead.