Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Frame and Chassis Related Elements => Topic started by: markb on October 26, 2011, 09:46:48 am
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From a previous thread it looks like at least some VINs up to 302 had one or two 11mm stem mirrors. #97 didn’t have any when I got it but it’s likely it had them too. It’s one of the last parts I need for the restoration. This has to be up there as one of the rarest sandcast parts. So I have been looking into getting a batch made.
It’s more than just a larger diameter stem. The bend is at a different spot and at a different angle. The thread is still 10mm but the nut is slightly different too. The mirror part appears to be the same and can be remounted from a 10mm stem onto an 11mm stem. The stem is the same for RH and LH, the mirror is just mounted opposite.
The hard part is the clip that the mirror mounts to. I am currently trying to find a shop to make that part. It looks like the clip was formed and then the radius and hole punched after. I know shops that can do it but they won’t bother with the limited quantity. I think I can do the rest (except plating) at my shop. I’m not looking to make money, just cover my expenses.
Part of my challenge is I don’t actually have one but I’ve been talking with Steve Swan and he has provided dimensions for me to work from. I plan on sending him a prototype to make sure it matches exactly.
At this point I have no idea on the price. The more we make the less expensive they will be. Assuming we can get them made for a (somewhat) reasonable price, who’s interested? Once I get a count that will help me determine if this is feasible.
By the way, does anyone have 11mm stems on VINs later than 302?
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Mark, I'm in for one stem no matter the cost.
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2 for me KP
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2 for me Marty K.
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Mark, I will send you my 11mm stem to copy.
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Thank you, Steve. That will be a huge help and save a lot of time and trouble.
Mark
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Mark, You can count me in for at least 4. Thanks, Keith
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Hi Mark,
I would also like to order two mirrors. Al Landry
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Including me we're up to at least 13. That's a good start. Anyone else?
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I'm in for two please,
Vince Ciotti
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I'll jump in too and take a set - but i have a much later sandcast
Rob Waddell
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I am a possible for two as well
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When i found #1221 in a time capsule sense 1985 and owned by this closed dealer in a storage trailer. This bike had 11 mm mirrors. These mirrors where used on 67-68 bigger bore on and off road bikes. One would think they were made 11mm for stength and may have been reduced to 10mm to lighten the bike. But here is one more fact is in have seen #1226 and this bike is untouched right down too the #28 carb caps and smoth oil filter housing. owned by the original owner. And he states this bike came with those mirrors like a K1. This may have been the a point when Honda was changing the mirrors over.
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Very interesting information! 8) In that case VINs up to 1221 may be correct with 11mm stems. Rob, what is your VIN? I would think it's likely that there wasn't an exact cutoff. Rather the inventory of 11mm stems eventually had 10mm stems added to it and the 11's were eventually used up. That would explain why some bikes were fitted with one of each. Just what the assemblers happened to grab.
Also if they were used on other bikes it may mean that there are more available out there than we think. The strength part makes sense but the weight savings with 10mm stems would be negligible I think. But maybe 10mm material was more common, certainly a hair cheaper and maybe would bend easier or better. Who knows why it was changed. Thanks for the input.
Up to 19 now.
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10vs11, i'd go with 11mm is what mirror mfgr had in stock. larger diameter stem would probably decrease vibration blurring, assuming the 11mm was used on twins. that's the theory behind bar end weights at least. who knows. some of this stuff is like trying to guess the number of angels that would fit on the head of a pin
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We have taken a serious step in the direction of evaluating the feasiblity of reproducing the 11mm stems. Mark received my stem today, he really likes it alot. 8) ;D 8)
Thanks, Mark, for taking on this project. Winter is good for something ! ;)
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Winter is good for something ! ;)
NOT 8)
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KPster, if you can call jungle monsoons and sea to land cyclones winter, guess it's not good for something.........
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And I thought blizzards in Minnesota were bad. ::)
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I would be interested in 2 stems for #366.
Thanks for putting in the effort.
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ciao,
i'm interested in 2 mirrors.
Riccardo
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Up to 23 now. We could use more but I think we're getting in the range where we can get a good price break. Any more?
Thanks guys,
Mark
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Since mrhonda2u is saying 1221 came with them I'm now wondering about 576? I only have one mirror and it a 10mm but rusted badly. Considering I have to buy something 11 mm stems are probably a good start! :)
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I will have a pair too, even though I have no good Hm logo mirrors to hang on them!
Chris R.
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But I think you would have an easier time finding the mirrors than 11mm stems. :)
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Hi my friends! It´s a long time since I had a look at this forum but I´ll do my best to join it more often. The only of my sandcasts where I found 11 mm stems on is my oldest with VIN CB750-1000388. This one was almost original and both stems were 11 mm. Now to the question - yes, I´d like to order two sets of them. Best regards to you all, Bo from Sweden.
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Up to 31 now. :)
Still researching. The challenge is what I call the clip and making it look like it was manufactured 40 years ago.
To try to make them as accurate as possible, I need some feedback from those of you that are lucky enough to own at least one 11mm stem. In the pic of Steve's stem below you can see the clip is not in line with the short leg of the stem. If it was in line then the stem would be universal, RH or LH, depending on how the mirror is mounted. I’ve looked at some of my 10mm stems and on one the stem is inline and another it is opposite to the picture but not as much of an angle. So it’s possible it was just sloppy fixturing. The parts book shows a different part number for right and left hand but those are assemblies and the stem may or may not be different. I’d like to find out what the other 11mm stems look like. Let’s call the one in the picture a right hand. If you have one or two will you examine them and let me know if it’s right hand, left hand or centered. If you want to send me photos, that would be great too.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07325.JPG)
There is another difference too. As you can see in the next pic, the hole for the 10mm stem clip (on the right) is close to the center of the radius. The hole for the 11mm is closer to the stem and not on the center of the radius. One of my other 10mm stems has a hole that is off center sideways. It was from that observation and the fact the there is not any mismatch in the hole that I concluded that the hole was punched after the clip was formed. So it is possible that the hole in the 11mm stem clip is off location. Of course the other possibility is that it was intended to be that way. The 11mm clip has a smaller bend radius so that there is enough clearance for the acorn nut if the hole is closer to the stem. Anyway, to make a long story not as long, I’d like some feedback on the location of the hole in the clip too. Again, pictures would be great. Any other opinions, comments and suggestions will be welcome too.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07329.JPG)
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Hi all! Mark asked if both stems are the same. They are not. Honda made the bikes very thouroughly from the beginning. On the front brake master cylinder the "stemhole" is located higher than the left hand "stemhole". To get the mirrors at the same height on both sides Honda made the right stem bent direct above the nut and the left is about 20 mm higher until it´s bent. I´ll make some photos and measure the differences and send my information to Mark. Regards, Bo.
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Hi Bo, Are you referring to the 11mm mirrors only. I've measured 6 of my 10mm mirror stems and they are the same length between the start of the thread to the centre of the radius (read bend) which is approximately 50mm (give or take a mm) The parts book shows these as different mirrors but I'm yet to work out the difference. The stems are interchangeable from what I can see as are the mirror heads but finding a difference in length eludes me. I'm certainly interested in your find
You could also achieve a height difference by changing the angle of the bend slightly.
Does anyone know if this acorn nut mirror was used on other models other than the CB750. KP
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Hi KP! Yes, I´m only referring to the 11 mm stems. To me, the 10 mm stems seems interchangeable. Until today I havent had the time to dismount my 11 mm stems and tomorrow morning I´m leaving for Germany for a couple of days. Next week I´ll get the photos of the stems compared to each other and the both stems pictured above a woodenmeter or what you call a wood stock with both mm and inches. The nuts used for 11 mm stems has bigger holes (to fit 11 mm stems) than the 10 mm stems. But, the windingthickness is the same on both models. Until next week, Bo.
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Hi KP! Yes, I´m only referring to the 11 mm stems. To me, the 10 mm stems seems interchangeable. Until today I havent had the time to dismount my 11 mm stems and tomorrow morning I´m leaving for Germany for a couple of days. Next week I´ll get the photos of the stems compared to each other and the both stems pictured above a woodenmeter or what you call a wood stock with both mm and inches. The nuts used for 11 mm stems has bigger holes (to fit 11 mm stems) than the 10 mm stems. But, the windingthickness is the same on both models. Until next week, Bo.
Hi Bo, That's a great. Further amazing information from you for us to include in our stock of collected data. Here is a picture of a bike presently on eBay and if we study the photograph I believe one can make out the difference you refer to. I look forward to you further data.
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I've studied the picture too and I can see the the base (nut) of the mirror is higher on the master cylinder side than it is on the other side but I really can't tell if the bend radius, bend angle or bend position is any different. Compensating for this height difference would be easily accomplished by tilting the mirror slightly. We need to check a pair of stems side by side to really determine if they are different.
For what it's worth, I found something interesting in one of my parts books. I can't find a date on it but it is labeled "Honda Parts Catalog CB750-K2. So it does have sandcast part numbers in it. It shows the CB750 LH & RH mirrors to be the same part number, 88110-300-000. Then it changes to two different part numbers for the K1's. I realize there is no way of knowing if it were 10 or 11mm stems. And it may just be a typo. But I'm very interested to see pictures of a set of 11mm mirrors.
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I have to confess I find this sort of stuff more fascinating than anything
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....But I'm very interested to see pictures of a set of 11mm mirrors.
Here ya go. Factory mirrors from 244. Right and Left have identical lengths, bends, threads, and nuts. Shafts measure about .05mm over 11mm due to chrome plating I think.
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Excellent! Thanks for the pics. That simplifies things a lot. Does anyone else have any pics/info that supports this find or not?
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I learnt something with the speedo/tacho debate and the French sandcast information, and that was never write off any information/theories/comments etc in relation to the Sandcasts.
Bo has asked me to upload his pictures of the 11mm mirrors and they will follow in the next post.
Amazing and thanks Bo :o
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(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/Mir_1%7E2.jpg)(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/Mir_6%7E0.jpg)(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/Mir_4%7E0.jpg)(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/Mir_3%7E0.jpg)(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/Mir_5%7E0.jpg)(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/Mir_8%7E0.jpg)
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Amazing! Obviously Honda was shipping every variety they could get their hands on. All 4 of my 11mm's are identical.
I just bought a parts manual printed April 69 but have not received it yet. Does anybody know if this was the first printing? Was there a provisional version prior to that?
Am anxious to see what they listed for part numbers at that point.
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KP, thanks for posting the pics. Interesting indeed. In the third pic which shows a closeup of the stems with the nuts it almost appears that the right one (in the picture) is a smaller stem (maybe 10mm?). Maybe it's just an optical illusion. Can we get a micrometer or caliper measurement of the diameter of both stems? The right one also has a shorter (16mm) nut which is what I have found on 10mm stems. Steve's 11mm mirror has an 18mm nut.
Thanks guys.
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The stem and nut on pictured on RH side *appear* 10mm.
The pictures (without measurements) can only give *appearance* features.
The pictures clearly show differences *appearing* between these stems and nuts.
We need a micrometer or caliper measurement of the diameter of the RH "taller" "longer" stem (shown lying mirror side down.) We need measurements of the i.d. of that nut on that stem. (Best to have measurements of both stems and nuts.)
Without measurements, WE DON'T KNOW.
Until we have stem and nut diameter measurements, I'm not convinced both are 11 stems and nuts.
If both nuts are 11mm, then both nuts should thread all the way to the end of both the stems threads. The top end of a 10mm nut will foul where the threads end on an 11mm stem. Hence, cannot be threaded all the way.
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Hi friends!
Since I don´t know how to attach pictures to this homepage I asked Kerry to help me. Now I´m able to put some text to the pictures. Both stems are 11 mm thick. Ihope you are convinced with my word, if not, I don´t understand the meaning of telling things I find out by myself. As you can see the right one is bent lower than the left one. The only reason for this as I can understand is to get same height of both mirrors. About the nuts: Both nuts at my bike are the higher 18 mm model and also with a wider hole to fit the stem. The only reason to use a picture of both models was to show the differense between nut for 11 mm and nut for 10 mm. The 10 mm nut is lower and it´s height is 15,5 mm. The nut for 10 mm has also a thinner hole to fit the 10 mm stem.
If I´m able to buy new produced 11 mm stems and nuts I´m still interested in 2 complete sets the way my pictured ones look since my #388 looked to be original at most points.
Kind Regards, Bo
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Bo, thank you very much for sharing your findings. Evidence of RH & LH 11mm stems being different. I can no longer argue all 11mm stems are the same.
The reason i asked for measuring diameters is because Mark's taking the time, effort and expense to produce the stems. It only makes sense for him to produce the stems to correct specs, based on as much as we can possibly learn, before actual production begins.
Would be no fun if he produced the stems, only to find out there was another specification he was not aware of, because he did not have all the specs, resulting in inaccurate reproductions.
My asking for stem diameter measurements was not for doubting you, but to make certain we are all in agreement with what we have discovered so far.
I've been proven wrong enough times on these sandcast details, that i always want as much info as possible to arrive at the most accurate possible conclusion. Or perhaps i should say, what i thought to be "true," turned out was not true, because more evidence has been found. As KP put it, when we heard "rumors" a few years back of French sandcast vins being much greater than 7414 and when we saw the evidence these 14xxx sandcasts existed, he realized we cannot continue to believe we are correct, just because we think what we know is the only "right" information that exists.
It's difficult sharing this info via the internet, i tried doing this last year with Mark when he was asking for dimensions on my 11mm stem. As our conversation about theses stems evolved, it seemed only logical for me to send my stem to Mark, so he could see it in the flesh, for first hand observation.
KP has taken some exhaustive measurements of the large megapixel pictures you sent him, which further supports both your stems being 11mm.
And, I notice, the long (RH) stem has the "step" where the threads end and the smooth stem begins. This step is most definitely consistent with the 11mm stem.
Again, thank you for sharing this info, there is so much to learn. Without our sharing what we discover, we would not know these differences.
For me, this is the purpose of our website, to share and to learn.
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Keith, i'm not aware of any parts book before the 69.4 printing..... yet.
The 69.4 and the 69.7 books call for a RH pn 88110-300-000 and a LH pn 88120-300-000. I thought i'd posted this earlier, if i did, i don't see it. I do recall sharing this info with Mark, in our personal email. There had been some back and forth conversation, between more than Mark and i, the mirror it's self was mounted to be used for one side or the other, hence different pn's. Other than that, at that time, we did not know of any other differences.
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Bo, I want to thank you again for taking the time to remove the mirrors from your bike and take the pictures of the 11mm stems.
The significant differences seen between these RH and LH 11mm stems is, to me, one of the most amazing, surprising and charmingly distinctive characteristics of these early bikes.
After i wrote the above, i thought i would look at the artist's sketch of the mirror in the 69.4 parts book. While we'll all probably agree an artist's sketch may not be an accurate way to assess what an actual part might look like, the lower part of the LH stem is longer than the RH stem.
Bo's measurements show the RH stem has it's bend 40mm from the threaded base and and the LH stem has it's bend at 50mm from the base. The clips appear positioned dead center to stem.
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Bo, Steve, KP, Keith,
Thank you all for your input. Bo, like Steve says, we're not doubting your word, we're just trying to make sure we understand the differences so we can get it right (as right as we can anyway). I'm trying to sort out all of this info. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
We've got two examples of the stems being the same from Keith and one example of the stems being different from Bo. I think we would all agree that this inconsistancy is consistant with this sandcast stuff. For the sake of discussion let's call Bo's left mirror the long leg stem (50mm) and the right mirror the short leg stem (40mm).
Steve, I believe you told me that yours was a right hand and it measures approximately 50mm.
So to summarize, it appears that bend location is the only difference. If we made them either way they could be considered correct. That said I don't think it would be that difficult to make some of each as each person desires so it shouldn't be an issue either way. I have one more (for now) question. Is the overall (straight) length the same on the short and long leg versions?
Now if I can just find a source for the clips. ::)
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Mark, i think you've just about covered the bases.
Sounds like the only piece of info you're needing is to make sure the length of the stem above the bend is same between "short" and "long" stems.
KP mentioned the 397 Canadian bike on ebay *appears* to have a long and a short stem. It does appear to me also, there could be a difference between the stems seen on this 397 bike.
Unfortunately, there is only one somewhat decent picture, which certainly could suggest long and short stems.
There is another picture, but it's less revealing than the other.
On another note, i would like to put in for 2 LH "long" stems and one "short" stem.
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Fellas, You heard the man. He needs a source to make the top clips .............. top priority and I know a lot of you have contacts you don't know you have that can do this stuff. Cutting the pattern won't be a problem but forming and punching will. The punch die will not be an issue though as this will be a custom cut to size ...... but it all costs. I'll check my end but I live in the boonies and not much sheet metal activity here
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Thanks for the help! I may have sounded more desparate than I really am. I have a quote from one shop (a little high in my opinion) and I'm waiting for quotes from 3 others (one is trying to make up a sample). So things are just going slower than I would like. However, if you know of a possible source I'd certainly check it out.
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Hi Mark, Steve, KP and all others interested in the 11 mm-case! Thanks for explaining your doubt, now it´s easier for me to understand your hesitation about new experiences.
Mark! If you´ll send me your adress to my e-mail bojje@snapphanetruck.se I´ll send you my both 11 mm stems so you can do your own measuring. Kind Regards, Bo
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Hi Mark, Steve, KP and all others interested in the 11 mm-case! Thanks for explaining your doubt, now it´s easier for me to understand your hesitation about new experiences.
Mark! If you´ll send me your adress to my e-mail bojje@snapphanetruck.se I´ll send you my both 11 mm stems so you can do your own measuring. Kind Regards, Bo
That is very generous Bo KP
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You're right KP, it is a very, very generous offer. Bo, I would never have asked but since you offered I will take you up on it. I will be very careful with them and return them as soon as I can get them measured up. Steve and I both think it would be a good idea to compare to his. Many thanks to you again. Email sent.
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Time for a quick update. After taking many pictures and documenting the measurements, I have sent Bo and Steve’s stems back. Fortunately they all arrived safely. It was very helpful to compare them. As you recall, Bo had two stems, one with a short leg and one with a long leg. The long leg one was exactly the same as Steve’s. Steve is pretty sure his is a right hand and from Bo’s pictures we can see his is a left hand.
I also compared Bo’s two stems. They were the same except for the length of the leg and the thread. Here’s a pic.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Stems6.JPG)
It certainly makes sense that the right mirror could be shorter and would be the logical one to be shorter because of the height of the master cylinder. It’s also possible that the short leg one had been repaired by the previous owner. The long leg has a distinct shoulder on the thread and appears to have been cut with a single-point tool on a lathe. The short leg thread doesn’t have the shoulder and looks like it might have been cut with a die. So we know of examples of the mirrors being the same and Bo’s example of them being different. I am providing this information so you will all know as much as I do and will leave it to each of you to form your own opinion and decide how you want them. It won’t be a problem making some with short legs and some without.
Many thanks again to Bo and Steve. These stems are valuable and like I said, to send them halfway across the country much less halfway across the world is a very generous offer.
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Great job Mark and and also very generous of you to go out of your way to do this for the group. KP
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Mark:
Thanks for the follow up on the 11mm mirror stems. Under taking this difficult project is/was greatly appreciated and needed to ensure the correctness of our sandcast restorations. Thanks Steve and Bo for providing the examples needed to make this happen in a timely fashion. Good work Mark keep us in the loop as things progress. Marty K.
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Hi Mark and you other friends.
It´s wonderful with honest people like you Mark. I know some people wonders if I´m peculiar while I´m sending my both original 11 mm stems half around the world without any guarantees I´ll get them back again. However, I did the right thing, to trust in you Mark and I´m happy for it.
I agree with Mark, it looks as one of my stems has been shortened. If someone finds another short stem we perhaps might change our minds. I´m very impressed of how thouroughly you´ve done your examination of Steves and mine stems. I´d like to thank you very much for your job.
As I´ve earlier ordered two short and two long stems I think it would be better if I change to two short stems and four long stems. Then
I´m able to use the correct kind if we will be sure in the future.
Once again, Thanks a lot Mark from Bo
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Hi Bo, thanks for trusting me!
A quick update. I had a shop that said they would make me some sample clips. That didn't work out. Not sure if they ever even tried to make them but after bugging them a couple of times they finally told me they weren't interested in doing them. So I've got another shop making a few samples. They should be done by next week. I really want to make sure they look good before doing a whole batch.
Mark
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After three tries I finally have some clips that I’m happy (enough) with. They’re not perfect but they’re pretty good. Part of the reason is they’re not as rough on the edges as the original stamped clips. But they never will be original anyway and they will have 11mm stems. The double D holes line up great.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08114.JPG)
They do spring open some but when they are clamped around the stem and brazed they should be a pretty good match.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08116.JPG)
Now that I have clips made I’m going to order the material for the stems. The 11mm stock is quite expensive. It looks like I can buy 7/16” stock and have it centerless ground to 11mm and polished for about half the price. I think I’ll get a sample done to check out the finish. I’ve already ordered the 14mm hex stock for the nuts. I was thinking of trying to machine them myself but I found a shop that I think can do them inexpensively enough. I’ve already found someone who will do the bending and I think I have someone who will do the brazing. So although it’s taking much longer than I anticipated, things are starting to come along.
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Excellent work, Mark!
Test a small piece of the centerless ground 7/16. I know they will be plated but the underlying surface usually shows through. There will be a difference in the ground finish and the rolled mill finish.
Keith
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Mark
I would be interested in one set, possibly two!
John
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I'm interested.
But are they correct for my vin 737, 1081 and 1256?
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Test a small piece of the centerless ground 7/16.
Good idea. The 7/16 stock is .438" and 11mm is .433" so about .005" would be removed. I'm hoping that is enough to produce a good finish. The original stems look like they were made from TGP (turned, ground & polished) stock, not CFS. There's another reason to use the inch stock. I can only get the metric TGP stock in 1045 and I can get the inch stock in 1018 (more bendable).
I'm interested.
But are they correct for my vin 737, 1081 and 1256?
From previous discussion on this thread they were found on 1221. We can only guess on the exact cutoff and it may be that there were VINs before 1221 that didn't come with 11mm stems. I guess my real answer is I don't know.
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Talking about the finish brings up another question. The original stems were typical Honda finish. In otherwords there was not much, if any, additional polishing beyond the required fabrication. There were still machining marks visible on the nuts and grinding marks on the stems. My plan is to replicate the finishes as close to the original as possble. That said, I know some of you prefer a little more "bling" than that. Would anyone want unplated stems and nuts so you could finish them to your liking? I think I can get the plating done for less than $10 per stem and nut. I've got some chrome stuff at this particular plater right now and should find out in the next week or two how he does. Of course if a lot of your prefer unplated, that might increase the cost of the plating slightly for those that want plated. I'm working on finding someone that can do the brazing and once I do I should be able to give you a pretty good estimate of the costs.
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I'd like my stem and nut plated... ;D prefer as original finish as possible so it matches my orig.11mm stem/nut.
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I'd like my stem and nut plated... ;D prefer as original finish as possible so it matches my orig.11mm stem/nut.
I agree with Steve.
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Three ;D
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Me four.
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Five
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I think I’ll call that unanimous.
I have the round stock back from the grinder. It looks good. I also dropped off a piece at the bending shop to do a test bend to double-check the bend allowance so I can determine the exact required straight length. There are formulas for that but even the shop said it would be a good idea to test one. Once I determine the straight length we can start machining the stems. I had to by a 14mm hex collet for machining the nuts (no one in town had one).
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08267.JPG)
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Thanks, Mark for the update !
I appreciate the time you're taking and the expense you're going to, to reproduce these stems.
A part appearing so simple is not so simple to re-produce !
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I I had to by a 14mm hex collet for machining the nuts (no one in town had one).
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08267.JPG)
If you Gringos used metric rather than imperial then the town would have been full of 14mm hex collets ::) Oh! Mark, what is a hex collet :-[ ;) ;D
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A collet is used on a lathe to hold the bar stock for turning. It screws into a collet holder that has a lever on it to open or close the collet to clamp onto the material. It does the same as a chuck but faster and won’t mark up the surface of the bar as much. They come in round, square, hex and other shapes.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/3550596-21.jpg)
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I got my sample with the test bend back. Looks like I need to increase my cut length by .08” (2mm) to allow for the bend.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08354.JPG)
An unexpected problem is the tooling mark. The bender says it will polish out. The photo makes it look way worse than it is. I looked at a stock 10mm stem and it looks like it probably had the same mark. When I pick up my chrome plating (hopefully it will be done soon) I’ll have him look at it.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08358.JPG)
When you look at it from the side you can see there is no noticeable distortion. Once I determine it can be polished out I will get the stems cut and threaded.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08360.JPG)
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Mark, the bend looks great. Excellent job ! Do you recall if there was a bend mark on my stem ? If you want me to look for a bend mark on my stem, let me know. steve
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I don't recall seeing a mark on your stem and as a matter of fact I was going to ask you to check it out. Like I said, I looked at a 10mm stem and if I look real close it appears that it has the same mark but almost invisible. I tried to take a picture but it really doesn't show it well. I talked to my chrome guy yesterday and he says my parts should be done by the end of next week. We'll see, it has already been a week or two after he said it would be done. But that's typical I guess. Anyway he said he would see if it will polish out OK when I pick up my parts. I might get impatient and bring it to him sooner.
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Hello Mark,
Can you please put me down for two stems, if it is not too late? You are doing a great job!
Joe K.
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Hey Joe,
Gotcha down, Mark
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Great, thank you, Mark.
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You guys are going to think I’m totally nuts. I’ve been working on trying to find someone to do the brazing. I assumed that each stem would be individually fixtured to locate the clip and then brazed with a torch. It could be done that way but it will be much, much cheaper to clamp the clip on with a nut and bolt and put them in an oven and braze them all at the same time. The brazing compound is just a paste that’s smeared on before assembling. Anyway, I clamped one onto a piece of 11mm rod and wasn’t happy with what I saw. The outermost ends of the clip hit first and there is a gap near the rod. Also the radius near the rod should be tighter so the nut doesn’t dig into it. I thought about going back to the sheet metal guy and see if he could rework them but sometimes those guys just don’t get it. It’s a pretty subtle thing. Plus I couldn’t talk to him until Monday so I figured I would tackle making a tool to fix them. Here’s what I came up with.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08388.JPG)
Here’s a view where you can see the clip.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08387.JPG)
Part of the problem was keeping the double D hole lined up. I added the pin you see in this view.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08389.JPG)
I used the hydraulic press in our shop to do the work.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08392.JPG)
Here’s a side view before….
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08390.JPG)
….and after.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08391.JPG)
Here’s a picture of the clips before (on the left) and after (on the right) reforming. You can see that the radii are tighter and the end of the clip flare out on the right one to allow the clip to pinch tightly near the rod.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08386.JPG)
This shows the clips pinched together (left before, right after). You can see where there is a gap on the left one.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08393.JPG)
I only did a few to check out the process so I hope to finish them next weekend. I think it will make a much better product. Hopefully by next week the stems and nuts will get turned. I’ve got a minor detail there to figure out too. After measuring the bent sample I came up with a different straight length than the bender recommended. So I need to double check that before we starting cutting stems.
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Hi Mark, the corrected clip looks fantastic. Great tool making work !
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Your a bloody genius :o
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Thanks, but it's not brain science, uh I mean rocket surgery, uh, you know what I mean... :D
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Yes, you really are dong a good job with this design. Good job!
Joe K.
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The nuts are machined and I had some sample stems made. I found a different bender and want to triple check them to make sure the length comes out OK before doing them all. The new guy bends around a mandrel, the other guy bent around a pin so I should get less deformation on the inside of the bend.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08592.JPG)
I think the nuts turned out pretty good. I made a few extra in case those of you that are fortunate to have a real 11mm mirror stems, needs a nut.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08593.JPG)
The stems look good too. I think the signature thread relief/step looks great.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08594.JPG)
The plan now is to get the samples bent and if they look good, finish machining the stems. Then bending, brazing and chrome plating. Hmmm, that doesn’t sound so bad.
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Looking darn good Mark!
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Yes. Looks good, Mark.
Joe K.
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Bravo !!!!
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magnifique :o. KP
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Did you make the originals for Honda? Those are looking really good. Keith
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Phenomenal attention to detail. These WILL be worth waiting for. Please keep me o the list for a set.
Chris R.
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Chris, you are definately on the list. Thanks for the compliments guys.
All the stems have been threaded now and they’re out for bending. As usual they’re saying 2-3 weeks. Everything takes 2-3 weeks (at least). Anyway, at least they’re getting there. Once they’re back from bending the next step is brazing. I want to be ready so I made up a tool to fixture them. Here’s a shot without the stem.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08653.JPG)
Here’s the stem and clip held it place.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08654.JPG)
It does a nice job of clamping the clip.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08657.JPG)
I’m not real sure that brazing them in the vertical position is going to be the best so I made it so it can be positioned horizontally too.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08659.JPG)
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Fine mechanic!!!
My deep compliments!
For me 2 set.
Riccardo
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Very impressive fixture!! Put me down for a pair!
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The bending is done.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08735.JPG)
Next is the brazing. I've done some experimenting with doing it myself. No so good. I was hoping to be able to keep the cost down some by doing it but the quality just isn't there. I hope to get the parts to the welder (not my aluminum welder) by Monday.
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Hi Mark, i can't imagine anyone here who plans to purchase your stems will be overly concerned about the price. I'd think all of us will be happy to hold them in our hot little hands, no matter what the final figure is.
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I got the brazed stems back from the welder. After sanding the ends I had about 30% that did not have enough fill to make a flat surface. They will have to be reworked.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08807.JPG)
In the meantime I’m going to get a few chromed to make sure they turn out OK. If they look good and when the rework is done I will have the balance chromed. Depending on how all that goes it looks like I’m probably looking at a finished price of approximately $100 per stem.
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Mark, great progress !
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Looks like they are going to turn out great Mark! Reasonably priced as well. Another fine part to put in my "holding" bins. :)
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I finally have a finished product! Before you get too excited though, I only had 10 samples done. I’m glad I did. In my opinion only 7 out of the 10 were acceptable plus I don’t like the way the nuts turned out. I think they need more polishing. Anyway, I’m sending a pair of them to Steve Swan for inspection and evaluation. If he’s OK with them then I will send the balance out for chrome and eliminate the flaws that were on the test batch.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08828.JPG)
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Brill Mark
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Mark. They look great in the pictures as I'm sure they will when one gets to hold them in his little paws. :) Nice work!!!
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I called Mark after receiving the pair of reproduced stems and nuts from him. Much time and effort on Mark's part went into controlling multiple factors to bring these parts to their high level of quality. They are, in sum total of one word, EXCELLENT.
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Yabba Dabba Mark - Good outcome sounds like KP
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Fantastic! I can't wait to see them! Kudos to you Mark for your fine efforts!
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After getting the Swan Seal of Approval, I sent the balance of the stems out for chrome plating. Unfortunately the plater says a couple more weeks. ::) Oh well, it's getting close now. When I get them back I contact everyone.
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And, of course, I want to say, THANK YOU, Mark !
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Looking super , Mark. Can't wait to get mine.
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I forgot to mention that the cost will be $95 USD each ($190 a pair) which includes the nuts plus the shipping costs. I was hoping for less but everything considered I don't think that's too bad. I would prefer payment by Paypal. Like I said, once I get them back from plating I'll contact everyone to double check quantities and calculate the shipping. Thank you all for your patience. I never thought it would take this long. I just posted in my #97 restoration thread that I'm going to stop telling everyone that "there's no rush". Once they hear that it automatically goes on the back burner. Of course that's not the only reason it took so long but I tried to get them as good as could be.
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Me too! Just give the word!!!!!!
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I believe I've contacted everyone who expressed interest in stems. If you haven't heard from me please let me know.
I was hoping to actually ship something this week. I picked up stems from the plater but he only did half of them because he said he is so busy. Even that would have been OK but he didn't do the nuts, so it still doesn't do much good. Aaarg! >:( Now he says he will finish everything by next week. As soon as I have parts in hand I will send out Paypal invoices. I feel like I'm starting to sound like the guys that I'm dealing with. ::) I apologize for another delay.
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They are beautiful; very much worth the small wait.
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Mark. No need to apologize. I'm sure everyone appreciates your fine work. I know for me, they will be a great addition to 576. :)
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As most of you probably already know, the stems are done. I had a small problem with some of them where the nuts wouldn't go past the shoulder. On those stems there was a slight bulge right where the thread relief is. With the plating thickness there is just enough to make it tight. It seems that it can never go perfect. I can rework and replate them and they will be fine. But the good news is I made of few extras and have enough to satisfy everyones requests. I've already shipped some out so some of you will be getting them soon. If you are not happy with them, you can return them and I will refund your payment. I think I contacted everyone but if I haven't please let me know. I had one question about the stems. They are not a complete mirror assembly, they are just the 11mm stem and nut. Thank you all for your patience.
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Can't wait to see them Mark! Thank you again for all of your hard work and doing this for our Members. Now, the search is on for a decent set of mirrors for 576 to hang on these stems! :)
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Now, the search is on for a decent set of mirrors for 576 to hang on these stems! :)
I know Yamiya has mirrors (on 10mm stems that would swap out) but I'm not sure if they have the correct Honda logo.
Apparently more than one person thought mirrors were included. I apologize for any confusion and if that's what you thought you were getting I will gladly let you return your stems and refund your money.
Another minor detail. For some reason (maybe because I paid online) the postage I actually paid was less than what I looked up online and quoted. It amounts to about a $1 in most cases. Any discrepancy in the shipping cost was unintentional.
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What? No Mirrors? Just kidding.
Thanks Mark. You efforts are very much appreciated. Don't sweat the postage on my part.
Thanks again,
Keith
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Hi Mark
Thanks for the email earlier. You're a star my friend. KP
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Everyone whose paid has their stems on the way. I'm leaving town in minutes ;) and won't be back until August 7 so any additional shipments will have to wait until then. :( Sorry.
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Now, the search is on for a decent set of mirrors for 576 to hang on these stems! :)
I know Yamiya has mirrors (on 10mm stems that would swap out) but I'm not sure if they have the correct Honda logo.
Apparently more than one person thought mirrors were included. I apologize for any confusion and if that's what you thought you were getting I will gladly let you return your stems and refund your money.
Another minor detail. For some reason (maybe because I paid online) the postage I actually paid was less than what I looked up online and quoted. It amounts to about a $1 in most cases. Any discrepancy in the shipping cost was unintentional.
Mark. I knew it was only stems. My comment was more along the lines of, now I'll need to find a nice set of mirrors worthy of hanging on what I'm sure will be perfect stems. Thank you again for your hard work. :)
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Mark. I knew it was only stems. My comment was more along the lines of, now I'll need to find a nice set of mirrors worthy of hanging on what I'm sure will be perfect stems. Thank you again for your hard work. :)
I know you knew Wayne. And everything worked out fine. The main reason I posted it was to make sure everyone was aware of it. I wasn't upset about it and it really wasn't a big deal. :)
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Mark, Just got mine. They are BEAUTIFUL! You really did an outstanding job. I greatly appreciate all your efforts. Thanks again, Keith
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Mark, awesome job on the stems!!!! Well worth the price, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi,
The stems arrived 2 days ago. Thanks for making this happen.
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Hello Mark,
I received my stems today and I think you did a really good job. Thank you for making me a pair!
Joe K.
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Mark
Received my stems today! They are beautiful!! Thank you for your fine workmanship!
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Thanks for all the kind words guys. What's next?
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KP is working on oil lines, isn't he?
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KP is working on oil lines, isn't he?
They will be a welcome addition to my parts bins as well if he is! :)
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Mark, these are superb pieces of kit. Truly a first class effort and a big thanks
As for oil lines, yes I must progress this project.
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KP, I was hoping I could push a button. ;) Keith
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What's next?
I was thinking of looking at reproducing the tach and speedo cables with short knurled nuts used up to 2157. I believe there is at least one company that makes custom cables. If the nuts (and ends if required) could be machined and supplied to them they should be able to make them. I'm not even going to think about this right now but unless someone is already pursuing it and if there is any interest I'll start a new thread about them this fall.
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Gauges cables?
Great idea!
Please go and update us, dont less time, we are avid & ansious sandcast bikers.
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Mark, great idea! Count me in!!!
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Mark ,
great if you can get a batch of "short knurled nuts " cables made .
I need a set for my VIN1161 .
Congratulation with VIN97 post , fantastic story , very useful information .
Geir
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Hi Mark! Thanks a lot for your fantastic job with the 11 mm stems. This was the only missing thing for my 100% restore of my #180/302. Since I´m always too busy to do jobs like yours I´m very happy there are some people who does them. Please, keep on doing things like these in future, we really need people like you. Bo from Sweden.