Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Parts Q&A's and Feedback. => Topic started by: chrisnoel on February 17, 2010, 01:32:53 pm
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Hello all.
What part #'s should I be looking for to get spoke sets for my rear rim?
Are the spokes for the rolled edge rims the same length ast the spokes for regular rims?
Thier is a parts place in the netherlands that has spoke sets that are reproductions. I think theier name is CMSNL or something like that. Are the spokes they sell acurate?
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Chris !
Appears you did not make notice of the answers to your question on the other thread YOU opened about this very SAME topic ?
Are you familiarizing yourself with the information contained in the SOOC website ?
The website "cmnsl" you have asked about twice, now, IS (and has been) in "LINKS."
Do you have a HONDA Parts Manual ? If not, I suggest you obtain one. It is a very helpful reference. There may even be a member who would graciously make a xerox copy for you, if you ask
To answer your question about spoke p.n.'s - Referring to my HONDA Parts Manual, print date 7.69; (only the round bead rim was available then)
There are TWO different p.n.'s used for the front wheel & TWO different p.n.'s used for the rear wheel.
In other words, each wheel requires TWO different spokes; an "inner" and an "outer" spoke.
Per 7.69 Parts Manual -
"Spoke A, front (Daido) 44606-300-003"
"Spoke B, front (Daido) 44607-300-003"
"Spoke A, rear (Daido) 42606-300-003"
"Spoke B, rear (Daido) 42607-300-003"
These p.n.'s were available from HONDA last year.
Checking two other HONDA Parts Manuals, (CB750 - K1) & (CB750 - K4). BOTH these manuals call for the same p.n. as the HONDA Parts Manual with a 7.69 print date.
My CB750 1004363 has round lip rim on rear and square lip on front (correct setup). Looking at my sales receipt from Buchanan's their p.n. for rear spokes are KHON711SS. Front spokes - KHON517SS. Stainless steel spokes are a tiny bit more shiny than clear zinc. So, for a perfect 'original' restoration - would not be correct and would appear only very slightly over-restored to only the discriminating eye. Clear zinc dulls time; looses it's brighness. Another plus to stainless spokes - they will not loosen nearly as easily.
Hope this clarifies sufficiently your questions.
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Thanks. I thought my post didn't make it into the site because I posted the earlier one at school and by the time I got home a few hours later it was not on the site. Now both of them are.
Anyways. I think I will be going with the zinc spokes.
Which ones have the longer end on the hub side? I would assume the longer ended spokes would face inward.
Are the longer ended spokes the A spokes?
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There are two differences between the two spokes - the angle AND the length of the neck - one neck is 90 degrees and the other neck angle is less acute. The 90 degree angle neck is longer than the less acute angle neck. The HEAD of the 90 degree angle spoke faces to the INSIDE of the hub. The head of the less acute angle spoke faces to the OUTSIDE. When you lace up either wheel, the spokes cannot be fitted to the rim any other way - unless the rim is forced to fit the laced hub.
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Thanks.
I've laced plenty of bike rims, and a few dirt bike rims, but never a street bike.
I didn't even notice the spokes were not the same till I had a pile of them from two different rims. Till now I thought that one rim must have had the long ended spokes and the other the short. I didn't know which ones had come out of my rolled edge rim.
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I laced a set of SS spokes from Buchanans on a sandcast. The construction is much better and much nicer in certain ways. But not exactly correct original but hard to knock. Their nipples were not yellow zinc, they only sold nickel plated or chrome. So I had them send a batch in plain steel then I had them sent out for yellow zinc plating. Buchanan's SS spokes come either plain or polished. I got the plain SS. Every single spoke head comes with an ugly "B" molded on them, so I ground-off every single "B" from 80 spokes. Then the hubs had to be prepped; vapor-blasting then clear-coated w/ Eastwood spray. The original rims had to be chromed. $275 each (ouch :o ) and 4 months later. Then I laced a set of wheels for the 1st time; and I'm a slow-learner. 1 nipple somehow got lost in all this. Buchanans has about 10 different sizes of nipples, and none yellow zinc plated. More delays and expense. Then new tires and tubes. And bearings. It took about 3 years, $1000+, about 150 hours of fussing to finally getting this all done. Within a week of completion, the bike is sold and gone. Glad I have a pic of them, I hardly had time to enjoy them. And, boy, oh boy, did they look GREAT!!! WHEELS MAKE A CAR OR MOTORCYCLE! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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I Just bought a set... Well I'm working on the deal anyway. I bought ten, and He is going to sell me 30 more once we work out the details.
My rim is going in the mail tomorow.... The guy got my money order today. I hope it's not too rusty. I did only pay $110.00 with postage for it though. + he's throwing in the coils.
He sent me a better photo than the one in the auction and it looked like it shouldn't have any heavy pitting.
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I started restoring my spokes. I have already ordered a new set of NOS spokes but I just realized that restoring my old ones is not going to be hard.
I took the old spokes I had from my original rim and a rim I got from the junk yard and picked out 40 of the least ugly ones. I dipped them in vinegar this morning and was quite surprized. I thought at best I would find some pitting that would make them useless, but they are cleaning up pretty nice. What looked like rusy metal was acually just oxidized zink. Several hours in some vinegar and a few rubs with some 0000 steel wool and I have nice looking bare spokes. Some of them still have zinc on them that will need to be stripped before plating. A few of them cleaned up with no damage to the old zinc. It would probably be best to have them all stripped even if they look totaly bare.
I think I'll have them nickel plated, and have the nuts yellowed. Then I'll decide weather to keep the restored or sell them and keep the NOS.
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Chris, you'll be sorry if you nickle plate those spokes.
1. Nickle begins tarnishing almost immediately and turns ugly fast. I know this from my days of restoring bikes out of the 20's, 30's. Nickle was used before the chrome plating process was invented. Nickle is an inferior finish that tarnishes quickly when in contact, even with in a protected environment.
2. Spokes on the CB750 were "clear" aka "white" zinc plated.
3. The nipples were "yellow" zinc plated.
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Is thier a better finish than zink? I want them to look acurat. Maybee I should go back to zink hey?
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White (clear) zinc correct for fussy resto, but SS doesn't corrode, stronger and looks really nice unpolished. If anybody knocks use of SS spokes because its not-correct, he's a classic example of "sour grapes" and can't see the forrest because of the trees.
Whatever you do, don't polish stock spokes, they look good for a while then start to rust. For instant gratification, you can touch-up a rusty spoke or 2 w/ silver or aluminum paint and a Q-tip. Sounds kinda Mickey Mouse but its quicker, cheaper and less work than re-lacing. Gives more time for riding, too.
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Chris -
IF YOU WANT THE SPOKES TO LOOK "ACCURATE", HAVE THEM WHITE ZINC PLATED.
THIS WAS AND IS THE CORRECT & ORIGINAL FINISH - YOU CAN'T GET THEM TO LOOK ANY MORE ACCURATE THAN THE ORIGINAL FINISH.
Specialty Plating in Denver does excellent work.
Nickle plate is the coating put on after copper, before final coat of chrome is put on. Chrome is actually a clear layer, that gives nickle it's deep lustre.
New nickle plate is as bright as chrome, but starts turning yellow, then brown ("tarnishes") in a matter of months.
WHY DO YOU WANT TO NICKLE PLATE THE SPOKES WHEN IT IS NOT THE CORRECT FINISH ?
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It was just a thought. You had my mind changed the first time you said nickle wouldn't work. I didn't know if some sort of dull chrome would hold up better than the zink but have the same look. I'll give specialty a call. Depending on the expense of having them zink plated they may not even be worth restoring.
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White zinc plate is inexpensive - it is a single layer. Is a single process. Zinc it's self is not as expensive.
Chrome is a "three layer" process - copper, nickle, chrome. These three materials are more expensive than zinc. And, require handling three times.
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Hi Fellas, Try this link for a third alternative.
http://www.eplate.com.au/
Not sure if Caswell's have this kit, which is supposedly capable of giving dull or chrome like finish, but the articles on the subject are interesting to say the least. KP ;)
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GEES! For a mere $500.00 or so I can mess my stuff up reel good myself. I think I'll just let the profesionals have a whack at it. Probably cost me less, and the wife wont wonder what the heck I'm doing with all those chemicals.
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My zinc-plater charges by the lot; not for individual pieces like chroming. So I gather ALL my screws, nuts, bolts, washers, fasteners, brake rods, springs, brake torque arms, EVERYTHING in 1 pile then give it to them in a bucket. $75 for a lot. During frame-offs you do this TWICE, as you ALWAYS find or forget another bit that needs it. When the parts come back (usually 1 week) playing w/ all these perfectly shiny new looking parts is a wonderful thing. Its the difference between a nice resto and a show-winning concours restoration. ;)
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Are the #8's and other parts zink plated as well? I suppose that would explain the color of my rear brake linkage.
How do I get in contact with this Mr Zink-plater.
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All #8 bolts, nuts, screws and washers white zinc. Some nuts and bolts are chrome (ie: upper triple tree). Look in yellow pages for metal refinishing, plating, chrome etc for local. My plater is Nassau Suffolk Chromiun Plating (NY).
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Chris -
Get on the phone & dial 303.555.1212 -or- 1.411 and ask the operator for Denver Colorado - Specialty Plating.
Actually - here is their number - 303.733.4470. Ask to speak with Joyce or Neil. Tell them Steve Swan referred you. They do excellent work - i have sent them tiny parts such as choke shaft lock washers & nuts. They have NEVER lost a single piece. Just baggie the small stuff up and include job instructions with your phone number & address AFTER you have talked with Joyce or Neil.
Except for a few bolts & steering crown nut/washer on the upper triple clamp, the swing arm shaft & nut & a few other odds & ends, ALL fastners & ancillary pieces on the CB750 are zinc plated.
Andy is absolutely correct - send everything to the plater in one lot.
Having only some parts with new zinc and ohters wiht old dull zinc will yield a disappointing overall finish.
Detail makes the bike. If you don't do the job "right" now, then you will wind up dis-assembling the bike later.
You should be able to get everything zinc coated for around $150, including the spokes & yellow zinc on th nipples.
I always send down everything i have. Last batch was more than two bikes worth & cost $200. This order did not include spokes or nipples.
Yellow zinc is pricey - 80 nipples is $50, so if you're only doing 40, should be $25
Do you have Wyatt's book - "The Original CB750" ?
It is about as good a reference as you can get for a standard to reference what is correct on a "sandcast." My opinion - no sandcast owner should be without a copy. It is LOADED with color pictures of a sandcast.
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Chris, One of the first things I do after taking video and PICs of the bike to be restored is seperate all the parts by finish. Chrome ,Black, Cad, nickle, paint, etc... Things like cad and zinc are cheap to finish by the pound. Just try not to forget any parts. I tried using the Caswell kits with varying results. I've never tried the zinc plating kit. The battery must be fresh and you can only do one item at a time. For cad I found it easier to paint to match then plate for the few items I forget to send in bulk. I agree with Steve about the nickle plating. It is expensive and pretty much not used on bikes after the 30s. It was the finish of choice in the first 20 or 30 years of the 1900s. Steve is right on the money that you should get every reference you can, Books ,parts lists and original shop manuals are invaluable. Before I ever spend a dime on parts I buy the books first. If you are on a severe restoration budget you tend to not want to waste the money on books. This is so wrong. The books might not have all the right answers but they get you to ask the right questions. Experts will get impatient with you if you don't at least get some general knowledge that is easily available. I'm very new to the Honda world but am lucky to have people like Andy (736) that have helped me through the learning curve. Eli
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Chris, we'll try to answer as much questions as we can. The old cliche' "there's no substitute for experiance" holds true here. Try to find another sandcast or K0 locally, keep your nose to the ground and dig, they are out there available for a song usually from uninitiated owners/relatives that want that dirty bike out of the garage. Eventually, YOU will be giving the answers because you now know what to look for and have learned (as we all do) from mistakes ("that rear rim has a funny edge, lets throw it out"). And try not to over-restore an old bike, that patina of nicks, scratches, and corrosion is its acquired character. I'd say 80% of sandcasts on the road today are restored, and 80% of those are OVER-RESTORED or incorrect. Go to a bike show- the perfectly shiny eyeball popping restorations wow the spectators; the infrequent ratty unrestored rust-heaps ALWAYS get the undivided attention of the showbike entrants! ;)
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Thanks for all the replies.
I have checked at the book stores for reference on CB750's. I found a nice Z1 book but nothing on the CB750. I;ll look on amazon for Wyatt's book.
I have been cleaning up my bolts and other parts by polishing them. I have not been overdoing it... Just cleaning them up. Now that I know that I can just send them all out for zink plating that is what I will do.
If getting the nipples done costs $50.00 I think I wont even waist my time on the spokes or nipples. I just paid $75.00 for an NOS set of spokes + nipples.
I could have gotten a repro zink set for $55.00 but I never asked if the nipples were yellow.
Are the spokes I cleaned worh anything? I don't see the point anymore in having them done, but would someone else want to go through that expense?
Modified.....
I looked for wyatt's book. It is out of print, and noboby has it.
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sell your spokes and nipples on ebay, don't chuck 'em.
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Chris,
There is always a copy by Wyatt turning up on Ebay.
I bought my copy at Barnes & Noble about three years ago. It showed out of print (copyright 1998), but they were still able to obtain the book from the publisher. I went to the order & information desk at Barnes & Noble to make my request.
There are a couple other books that are good references also, that can be used adjunctively to Wyatt. Each book has info or pictures the other book does not have.
These books are:
"Honda CB750" by Mick Duckworth (2003)
"Honda CB750 - The Complete Story" by Mark Haycock (2000)
There are a couple other books besides these three.
I like Wyatt best because it is LOADED with color pictures of a Candy Tone Blue Green machine.
Duckworth is as nicely finshed as Wyatt, but Wyatt & Haycock outline much more the various changes within & between VINs.
Hang in there, you'll find a copy by Wyatt.
Certainly, as time goes by they will be more difficult to find, as the print date becomes more obscure, demand is less and the range of readership appeal is not broad like "best sellers."
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I have already been scouring this area for Japanese collector bikes So far I have turned up my sandcast, a spare sandcast motor, and proably next week I'll have a Black Bomber.
If I had found the bomber and not the sandcast I would have been happy as a clam to restore it. Since I have a sandcast though I will just be parting out the bomber to fund my sandcast.