Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Parts Q&A's and Feedback. => Topic started by: vince ciotti on May 11, 2010, 08:00:54 am
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Need a set of tires for my Sandcast, VIN #378. Hate to put modern-looking tires on it. Anyone find tires any that look like the originals: ribbed front and flat back?
Thanks!
Vince Ciotti
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Vince
Did the originals look like mine? It's a NITTO SAFTEY NT-7S 350-19 4 Ply rating Nylon.
Avon Speedmasters look pretty close I think.
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I have used:
Dunlop 325Hx19 (54H) GOLD SEAL F11
Dunlop 400H x 18 (64H) GOLD SEAL K87 MKII-M
:-\
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Vince
Yamiya. Nuff said
KP
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Sorry for posting on an old thread.
I'm looking at getting a set of Dunlop F-11/K-87 from Yamiya for #97. Except for the Dunlop brand the front tire doesn't look much like original ribbed look. This is probably the cheapest option except for the outrageous shipping and happens to be what Vic World uses on his restorations.
Also looking at the Bridgestone Accolade AC03/AC04. The front is more more of a ribbed look but I don't like the rear so much. I don't understand the size description. Does anyone know if they fit? More expensive than the Dunlops but available domestically I think.
The Continental RB2/K112 in my opinion look the most like original but the most expensive and I think I would like to stay with either the Dunlop or Bridgestone brand. Both are listed in the parts book but was there one or the other that was fitted to the early sandcasts?
I also like the looks of that Avon front tire but I didn't see a rear one that I like. I don't think I want to mix and match brands.
I guess my question in all this is what tires can I put on #97 that will be generally considered acceptable? Any opinions? I am ready to buy soon.
Mark
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So, i just rec'd from Yamiya the F11/K87 combo week b4 last. http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=dunlop (http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=dunlop)
Entire rear tread pattern is about as close to correct original appearance as one could dream for. Front zig/zag pattern is awful, imHo. and for average daily riding, fwiw, these Dunlop tires are worthless, they are a 1700 mile tire at best. i've got 1400 miles on the K87 on 2157 and it has about 1/8" center tread remaining. the front has also appreciably worn, more than one would expect a ft.tire to wear in 1400 miles.
Below are new Bridgestone Accolade 02/03 ft/rr tire combo i just took off 232 last week. i bought these around 2006. The front rib is not accurate but FAR better than the F11. The rear pattern is good on the sides and awful down the center. The front has the new sizing on the wall of tire. The sizing on rear tire is the old decimal. But, they are Bridgestones....
100/90-19 = 3.25-3.50x19. So you know what size you are purchasing, use a tire size conversion table - http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-tires/tire-data.htm (http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-tires/tire-data.htm)
imHo, the Accolade 02/03 tires are as decent looking as the F11/K87 tires and both the right size for a restoration. the Accolade rear tread pattern is as much a downer as the front tread pattern on the F11. the little diagonal rain grooves on the Accolade front are only mildly detracting.
early parts book calls for Bridgestone tires. i know the experts say Dunlops were also fitted.
when it comes to restoring, i guess we don't live in a perfect world, at least when it comes to tires..... so, it boils down to restorer's preference.
as nice as you are making 97, Mark, i'd scout ebay morning, noon and night for an acceptable original set. A K1 i'm restoring still has the original front BS and it's pretty much gone with nearly 6k miles on the clock.
my understanding, the Accolades are no longer being mfgr'd....? the Accolade front i have is model 02; rear is model 03. If you can still get Accolades, Mark, do let me know. sounds like they must be since you reference Accolade models AC03 (ft?) and AC04 (rr?) so i am guessing the AC 03/04 have superceded the 02/03 series.
going on http://www.bridgestone.com/products/motorcycle_tires/products/accolade/ (http://www.bridgestone.com/products/motorcycle_tires/products/accolade/) one can see the diffs between tires. My 2006 purchased Accolades clearly have tire model of 02 and 03 on the tire; no "AC" on tire. i note the BS website show an AC03 which looks like my 02 and AC02 appears to be like my 03 tire.
That AC03/AC04 combination looks about the best i've seen..... Appears neither are exact in original tread pattern but as a pair, both are closer than the other tire pairs.
And agreed, Continental's on a CB750, #97 would be jibber-jabbering auf Deutsch.
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I remember that at the time in 1969 all bikers said that the tires mounted on the CB750 were real soaps!
So why do you absolutely put these tires?
And that's why I opted for the Dunlop TT100 GP which will give him a little sporty look while retaining the spirit of the 1969/1970.
The look of this tire is very beautiful on the Honda CB750...
Gerard
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Agreed, Gerald ! Those TT100's were the best tire in their day. i rode a lot of miles on TT100's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT100_%28motorcycle_tyre%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT100_%28motorcycle_tyre%29)
Knowing Mark, i'm guessing he could not live with TT100's on his bike.... ;D ???
It would make 97 look too much like my 1974 Commando :o
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Steve, your Norton Commando is superb and the TT100 tire him doing very well... Super Look!!
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as nice as you are making 97, Mark, i'd scout ebay morning, noon and night for an acceptable original set.
I have looked some. Even if some could be found that look OK I can't imagine they would be rideable.
Steve, thanks for the thoughtful post. It sound like we're on the same page. I guess it's going to come down to the BS or Dunlop.
Knowing Mark, i'm guessing he could not live with TT100's on his bike.... ;D ???
You're right Steve. Good tires but too far out of place for me. :)
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yeah, between the D's and the B's, i went with the D's. But, i had not seen the AC03/04, despite my looking... yet, none of these tires are perfect. 2015, that'd be too much to ask.
i will say though... the AC03/04 combination looks about best to my eye. Better tread pattern overall than the Dunlops, imHo. but there's probably the new sizing markings on the B's. That K87 is about as perfect as one can get. but, that F11 is pretty blinding.
let us know what direction you choose.
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Ho !!! that AC04 appears to come only in one size...... ??? 130/80x18 = 5.00/5.10x18
the AC02 does come in 4.00x18.
a reasonable combination could be an AC03 front and an AC02 rear... appears would be pretty mcuh same as my 2006 Accolades, 02/03....
i don't know if Accolades are even available any longer. if i understood correctly, when i was inquiring to availability, my parts source told me Accolades are nla.
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Yikes! I saw both the ACO3 and ACO4 listed on the Yamiya site and assumed that were suitable replacements. However if you check out this link you will find that they say the tire is "thick" and you have to remove the chain guard. :o ::)
http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=246_251_184_90&products_id=957 (http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=246_251_184_90&products_id=957)
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There are some AC03 tires available on ebay. The AC02 doesn't appear to be available anywhere. For looks the AC03 would look good on the front and the Dunlop K87 would look OK on the back but then you have the mixed brands. Would that be a no-no?
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to my way of thinking, mixing tire brands would be a no-no because the factory would not have sent out a machine with mixed brands.
all things discussed and considered, imHo, the F11/K87 combination, is the closest thing available to original. i'm feeling good having sprung the bucks for them on 232. And, Vic uses them.
The Dunlop TT100's were available in 1969 and are today still a damn good tire. However, i believe the TT100 comes no smaller than a 4.10 size. And, the TT100 did not come from the Honda factory. Other than that, the TT100's available today are really really excellent copies of the original TT100 tire.
if you ride 97 any distance, i promise you'll be dismayed to watch the rear literally wear before your eyes. They ARE a 1700 mile tire. if a person put 2k miles on them, you'd be down to or close to the cords. But then, Chris would like to lead you to believe we were riding 2157 MotoGP style with victory lap burnouts..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Steve, your Norton Commando is superb and the TT100 tire him doing very well... Super Look!!
Thanks, very kind !
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So I went home last night still thinking about tires and decided to check what I have. Two big surprises. I first checked what was on the early diecast. Bridgestone AC03 on the front and AC04 on the rear. What the…I thought the 04 was too “thick”. I checked the clearance to the chain guard and it is close but there is clearance. I put these on over six years ago and before getting into the sandcasts so I’m not sure what I was thinking when I chose them. However, looking at the AC04 it is too wide to look “correct”.
Second surprise. I’ve got rolling frame 1990. I checked the tires on it and unfortunately there is a 16” wheel and tire on the rear. But I was shocked at what I found on the front. I couldn’t find the name Bridgestone on it but it does have the letters BS. Here’s a look at the tread.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Tire_tread.jpg)
Here’s the size. That’s correct.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Tire_size.jpg)
And the model is a SUPER SPEED 21. Anyone ever hear of it?
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Tire_name.jpg)
So is this a correct, vintage tire? I think it would clean up pretty good. I think the pictures actually make it look worse than it is. Realistically what are the chances of finding a vintage rear tire? It makes sense that there would be more fronts around because they didn’t’ wear out as fast. Does anyone on the board have one they would sell me?
Another thought, Steve would you be interested in selling your 02?
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Mark, that BS tire looks like the right correct original one. Let me take a look at the K1 in my shop, it's a super clean, 6k mileage. with original front. I'll see what it say on it.
Sorry, I'm using these Accolades on 2157, as the Dunlops are about gone.
These rear Accolades have to still be out there, new and in good used condition, at salvage yards, i have seen used ones on ebay.
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I've done some research and it appears that the BS Super Speed 21's are correct tires. (I think there is an early Dunlop too that could be correct). Checking around I actually have a couple of leads on some sets of used ones. One of the guys says he has three or four sets but I haven't seen them or even pictures yet. But here's the crazy part. He says why don't I just buy new ones. He claims that new ones can still be bought in Japan for about $400 each. The problem is that can't be ordered and shipped. They would have to be purchased by someone (living?) in Japan and they would have to ship them (legal?). Can anyone here confirm this? If so is there anyone on the board in Japan that could buy me a set and ship them? Unless one of these used sets is super nice I would be tempted to buy them.
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Some additional info:
The 69.4 parts manual specifically calls out a K87 Dunlop for the rear. I don't know if it had the same tread as the K-87's currently available.
I found a reference that said the Dunlops used on the early CB-750's were an F-6 on the front and a K-87 Mark II on the rear.
The same source says the Bridgestones were a Super Speed 21F2 on the front and a Super Speed 21R2 on the rear.
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Ah ! ;D i see that..... now! ;D BS or Dunlop. helps to thoroughly read literature. now if i could just remember what i read.... :o :o
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markb: I have info the first bikes had Dunlop F3, later sandcasts had F6.
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So are you saying only Dunlops on the early bikes? I'm assuming the F-3 and F-6 were front tires?
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My front wheel stands with original tyre on.
Dunlop Gold Seal G-233.
Made in Japan.
Frame Vin 1676.
Erling.
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The plot thickens. I kinda remember Gold Seals back in the day. So it sounds like there were probably several options for stock tires. Can anyone say for certain that both Bridgestones and Dunlops were fitted to sandcasts? Does anyone have photos of some of these tires? I'd like to know if the treads of both brands were similar. After seeing pics of the BS Super Speeds they sure match what I remember they looked like. Here's a pic of the rear.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/BS_Super_Speed_Tread.JPG)
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As soon as i get a chance, i will look through my library of magazines and brochures and see if there are any good pictures of tires. will get back in next week, no more than 2.
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Mark,
Not sure if this will help, but my 10/70 K1 has the original tires on it. Dunlop Gold Seal K87 on the back and Gold Seal F6 on the front.
I compared them with the K87/F11 combo that Yamiya sells (which I put on both of my Sandcasts). Very very close. The F11 is a bit less "stripy" if you will than the F6. Otherwise, they are great. In my opinion, the K87/F11 combo is worthy of your superb bike.
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It all helps. I've learned a lot in the last couple weeks about these old tires. I'm still trying to track down a (better than) decent set of BS Super Speeds. If all else fails I'll do the Dunlop K87/F11 option with no reservations.
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if we don't already, it would be nice to have pictures of all 4 these tires. tread design and nomenclature on sidewall.
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On our site is a late pre-production picture of a Bridgestone Superspeed tire, so Honda have to equip Sandcasts with both Bridgestone and Dunlop tires.
Best,
DW
http://cb750sandcastonly.com//images/latepreproduction02.jpg (http://cb750sandcastonly.com//images/latepreproduction02.jpg)
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Clearly a Bridgestone on 2113 prototype Sandy.
DW
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Also green Las Vegas bike had Bridgestone tires. But production bikes had Dunlop F3 and K87. I will search in my library, but in one of first US magazine test there was written F3 and K87.
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hmmm. parts book calls for BS. the pre-production display bikes have BS tires. So far, it seems production bikes had Dunlops fitted. ????
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1969 Cycle World article, here is a picture from the rear of the test bike.
Best,
DW
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Aug.69 CYCLE records Dunlop, F3 and K87.
MOTORCYLE WORLD, MARCH 1970, documents road test on machine with engine CB750E-1000024; Dunlop F3 and K87 fitted MOTORCYCLE WORLD notes they had to wait for a 750 machine to tests, because the larger circulation magazines got the machine before they did. Color pictures were taken for the MC WORLD article, leaves on trees were turning, so it must have been late Autumn when MCW got #24 to test. and MCW commented the tire was pretty much worn with 5200 miles on the machine. of interest, the article also mentions "chain break and punch a hole in the cases of the Honda Four." The article goes on to say, Honda reps said the fix was applied to the very earliest machines; fitting a tooth larger front sprocket.
So, this quick look through all my American magazines, all pictures appear to show same Dunlop tires which all appear to show same tread Dunlop tread design. i will look through my Factory brochures for mention of tire brands, but that'll be a few days.
i am suggesting the possibility production machines (USA) were fitted with Dunlops and not Bridgestone. Although the parts book calls for either brand, i seem to remember English Dunlop was a tire brand commonly available imported tire to US, whereas not in the case of BS. And, the BS tire was a Japanese tire, i'm not sure how readily available to retail in 1969.
it sounds like the 4 pre-prod units came with BS tires....???? Perhaps BS is what the factory had available at the time to fit to these hand built non-assembly line produced machines ???? But, Dunlop was the tire choice for production assembly. (and fwit, this was the time when relationship between Honda and Bridgestone was acrimonious, Honda telling BS to quit making motorcycles or we'll stop putting BS tires on our motorcycles?) Who knows to be fact..... But these were some of the factors making up the production climate around that time that could affect decisions. ANYBODY KNOW MORE ABOUT THE BRIDGESTONE/HONDA RELATIONSHIP, WHEN THIS HAPPENED, WHAT THE FACTORS WERE ?
Anyway, what one sees in the parts book or in literature does not always translate to what the bike ACTUALLY comes with. So, perhaps, Dunlops were fitted to production lines, but the book called for either brand. The book called and literature called for a number of things not seen on prod.bikes, example that comes to mind is early literature called for 4 colors and we know early bikes came in 2 only.
looks like falls back to the more early examples we can find with what appear to be original tires, is what we can use to theorize correct tire.
F3, F6, F11, these different numbers, i imagine, designate improvements in tire carcass and compound and maybe tread design. Thoughts anyone ?
My 4779, my ride to California, my rear tire was over half worn when i went to dealership in California May 1970. i distinctly remember him telling me to take it ease so i could get back to Nebraska on the remaining tire. Which, i did. There was no center tread when i got home. I remember waiting for a tire to come in, it was at least a couple weeks. That tire came from Olson Brothers Honda Triumph.
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As I remember it the 125 Bridgestone racer was build to test their own tyres on but outperformed the tyres so a foreign brand had to be fitted!
As for 4 colours on original models might one be the grey on E vin 111 I distinct remember seeing on Nürburgring May 1970?
Erling.
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Have a set of Dunlop Goal Seal.
Came on a CB750 in 1970 to Germany, been changed to European wheels and stored since then.
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i have sent a pm of interest in the set of tires.
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If Mr Swan doesn't buy them can i put my hand up
Thanks
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Probably way too late but my hand's up too.
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Thank you for the PN's and E-mails.
Actually, I just wanted to show the old profile of those tires for comparison and didn't intend to sell.
If so, I have no idea what would be a reasonable price. Living in Germany I assume that shipping would be quite expensive to USA. How to ship tyres?
Next week I will pick up another low mileage German KO, diecast of corse, registered 03/1970. Will have to do an overhaul and maybe then will give her those tyres.
If not the set will go to somebody here.
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The poor... Sgt.Pinback by kindness he makes you see his beautiful tires 1969 and you want all poking him...
This is not nice!! >:( :D :D ;)
I try to have a little humor, because here in France a Paris since yesterday, it's very sad...
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Yes. What happened in Paris is very sad.
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My Sand Cast front wheel stands with original tyre on.
Dunlop Gold Seal F3.
Was only on for the first couple of month.
Then the Münch 250 mm drum brake from my BMW came on.
Though only 18 inch rim it did not handle any different!
Just touching more frequently the exhaust pipes underneath!
One thing is: there are double mutters on the air valve stem!
Is this common?
Matter of fact, never really spoke to a fellow Sand cast owner.
5 landed here simultaneously. Met 2 of them then just briefly!
Erling.
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Cant make this info 100% right, but F3 tire was used on about first 2000 Sandcasts. Later sandcasts had F6.
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I can confirm that when I got 1853 that it had an F3 front/K87 rear on it.
Steven.