Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: sandydogg on June 22, 2013, 07:33:35 pm
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Hi all,
Today I put my donor K0 engine for sale on ebay. Within hours someone emailed me saying the numbers do not look right. I compared it to my sand cast engine number, as it is the easiest reference I have at hand... and it does indeed look to be a different font. The zero's do not look right. The "B" sure looks the same on both my sand cast engine and the die cast engine.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-CB750-K0-DIE-CAST-ENGINE-9360-RUNS-GOOD-NEAR-SAND-CAST-NUMBERS-69-70-/181163099111?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2e2983e7#ht_2455wt_1286 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-CB750-K0-DIE-CAST-ENGINE-9360-RUNS-GOOD-NEAR-SAND-CAST-NUMBERS-69-70-/181163099111?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2e2983e7#ht_2455wt_1286)
Above all, I am an honest seller on ebay, if someone could voice their opinion I would very much appreciate it. Perhaps a warranty engine case replacement? The stamp by a local dealer on a set of factory unstamped cases?
If so, does it greatly affect the value, in your honest opinion? I realize I may have to reduce the price... but is it a huge deal to have a restamped case? it would be very good to have some expert opinions, and I will certainly revise my listing accordingly.
Thanks in advance!!
Regards, John
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Honestly, I think they are factory stamped numbers. Your price may be a little high especially considering the fin damage on the head. Sure it can be repaired but it will take some effort to get it right. Sandcast motors usually sell in the $2500-4000 range depending on the engine number. I won the bid on 2 different SC's engines on eBay for under $3000 each. Will you be selling the matching frame? If yes, do you have a title for it? I might be interested in a package deal. PM me if interested. Keith
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Hmmm thanks Keith...
Yes I always start on the high side... to my often surprise it usually sells full price. I hate listing something that sells in 30 seconds... tells me I listed too low. I have a surprising amount of money into this die cast donor bike, I am actually shocked to see what early K0's are fetching on the open market.
Yes I showed the fin damage in great detail and can send hi res pics to any interested party.
I do have the frame, indeed. I still have to tear down #1767... I have a welder lined up, this guy is into mc's as a hobby... builds top fuel frames in his spare time... and has been recommended as the "top guy in the area" for frame work. #1767 has been choppered and made rigid. I have a untitled early K0 frame that will have the rear section grafted onto the sand cast front unmodified section... I will be happy to sell the frame once my welder uses it to compare to the project. I figure since I already have it I should let him use it as a reference point, if needed.
I will pm you, thanks for your interest as well as input.
Regards, John
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font does look like honda font.... but does have an unusual appearance, in that font does not have a crisp sharply defined outline nor is the font "straight" as one would expect a steel stamp to make it'swell defined mark.... the font is "wavy," almost as if something distorted the clean crisp lines a stamp would make.... battery acid.... ? exposed to the outside elements..... ?
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Thanks for the input, Steve... I certainly don't know enough about sand casts or K0's to be even an entry level "expert"... I have probably spent as much time peering at the numbers and scratching my head as I have cleaning the motor with WD40 and a toothbrush. The font indeed does appear "correct" and "different" all at the same time. There are some striking similarities and some striking differences. The more I try and learn about these oldies, the more it seems to elude me. The entire bike was indeed exposed to "something" but I am not sure I will ever know what "it" was. It was titled last in San Jose, CA... how long it spent there I have no idea... the entire bike had more weathering than I would have expected from a Cali bike... possibly salt in the air? San Jose is not directly on the ocean, but again how long it was there I do not know. Maybe some of the California guys can chime in and tell me how the salt water atmosphere affects the bike's finishes. The frame had rust in unusual places, like under the tank and in many hidden nooks. Not heavy rust, just light to medium surface stuff, but I am not used to seeing rust in hidden nooks like that. The whole bike puzzles me... no sun fading, so obviously not exposed to open air... rust in odd places... just weird! Crap I have spent who knows how many hours studying the details of these bikes... and still feel like newbie that just walked in the door! These bikes are making me nuts!! And I actually know quite a bit about Japanese bikes!! Aaaargh! ???
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Hi John
I think the numbers are incorrect font. This is based on the picture of the numbers If the picture is not a true reflection of the actual then I may be wrong but if the picture is accurate then the numbers are not correct font :-\
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I just had another look and can confidently say that the numbers are an after production effort. The 9 is not a Honda font. I regret to be the bearer of this bad news
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KP, I just took a closer look and you may be correct. To me, the numbers 5 and 3 have the most suspicious font. Honda 5's have a long upright with a tight circle at the bottom. 9360 has a 5 with a short upright and a large circle at the bottom. The center of Honda's 3's point up where the center of this 3 points down. Also, it appears that the 9360 may be slightly larger than the other letters/numbers. As said previously, they are "washed out" or heated or something, but many of the "breaks" in the stamps are there which I would think is kind of hard to do. I have attached pictures of 5961, 8135, and 9360 for comparison. Keith
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decades of exposure to salt air atmosphere would affect the clarity of the stampings.
but there is something else going on with these stampings, the numbers just don't look right, even if their clarity were diminished from exposure to what ever.
kp and keith are on to something.
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The vin letters and numbers are not factory Honda stampings. Every one of the stampings, carvings, etchings, etc: has a flaw, curves not tight/close enough, straight lines not sharp enough, curves, angles alignment incorrect. Definitely and after the factory marking. The vin looks to may have been etched or carved on to the vin pad. Replacement cases, with previously damaged case vin number etched or carved onto new replacement cases. Nice try but no win. Marty K.
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The numbers and letters were carved not stamped.
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for some reason, this computer i am at (not at home) the resolution of the 3 pics is really HIGH and appears clearly Marcello's observation is correct, the figures are carved.
on the other two vins, can actually see the indent of stamping die. on the vin in question, one can see raised and lowered areas in the bottom of the digit's markings, suggesting the numbers are, indeed, carved, etched, or etc, but certainly does appear not stamped. the figures are so irregular, they cannot have been made with a stamp, at least a stamp of high quality.
i am going to suggest, the cases were unstamped replacements and the Evin from the original engine was placed oin this unstamped set of cases.
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The numbers and letters were carved not stamped.
I think you nailed it!
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These cases could be replacement cases and someone copied the number off the original case to this one. The question I have is how close is the frame number to the case number?
This will lower the value of this engine.
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Thanks all, for the replies.
The MAN has spoken... Vic World emailed me over the weekend. It is his opinion that the cases were warranty type replacements, stamped by the local dealer performing the (likely) warranty work. Mr. World is of the opinion that the stamp was then heated with a torch (for whatever reason??).
I have no doubt that Mr. World is correct... I believe that he is about as "expert" as they get! ::) He seems like a very nice guy, by the way. My first time chatting with him.
I shall revise the ebay listing later, will likely part this motor out soon.
I appreciate all the responses... very much so.
Cheers, John
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These cases could be replacement cases and someone copied the number off the original case to this one. The question I have is how close is the frame number to the case number?
This will lower the value of this engine.
Very close... frame 9394 with engine 9360. I can say with 99.9% certainty that the number was stamped/etched/carved long ago... I could tell the motor had not been removed from the frame (or the bike even partially torn down) in decades.
I agree as well that the value is lower. :P
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If nothing else... I am honest ;D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181163099111?item=181163099111&viewitem=&vxp=mtr#ht_2505wt_1286 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/181163099111?item=181163099111&viewitem=&vxp=mtr#ht_2505wt_1286)
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I don't think they are carved or etched they look stamped to me look at the raised displaced metal around each stamp its easily seen you don't get this with engraving carving or etching, just sayin TC