Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => Links to Auctions and Classifieds => Topic started by: Steve Swan on July 10, 2015, 10:37:24 am
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB-/331601646847?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d34ff94ff&item=331601646847 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB-/331601646847?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d34ff94ff&item=331601646847)
i have heard this story (before this ad) of engines and chassis being shipped separately to California to be assembled.... What evidence supports this story ?
Difficult to believe, considering 2 different Honda factory set up and delivery manuals show bike in factory crate with engine in chassis. and, there are pictures of Japanese workers on the assembly line fitting frames to engines.
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So, i contacted Vince about the bikes being assembled in California.
Out of curiosity, have any of you seen this mis-information on this website ?
If so..... can you reference where you saw it ?
if this mis-information can be found on this website, it needs to be gotten rid of immdiately.
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Steve, Here is the question which I put :
70 General Category / General Discussion / French Sandcast with a very low number.. on: February 01, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
Here is a picture of the only known French Sandcast is sold in France with a very low number of VIN-1000293 E-1000313.
A French legend that tells that it was part of a shipment in France of sixty thirteen Honda CB750 Sandcast
"labeled California" = Assembled in California?? Who would have information on it?
Thanks, Gerard
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Hmm. Interesting. I would suggest the crate or bill of lading labeled "California" was the destination. In other words, the bikes came from Japan to California.
I don't have any evidence to support my belief, bikes exported to North America, were brought to American Honda in California.
I won't believe any 750's were sent in parts to be assembled in California until evidence is produced to prove otherwise.
Honda sending parts or components to be assembled to motorcycles to be sent to dealers for retail sales does not make sense for a number of reasons. Liability. Quality control. Warranty.
Of course, i understand there may be exceptions. If tgere are, I'd sure like to KNOW what they were.
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If this story crossed The Atlantic Ocean to arrive up to our ears in France, it is because she was not able to be invented and has my opinion there should be an element of truth... Maybe that Vic could have informations...
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Don´t know about any bike assambled in US. All magazines I have, and also japanese books, there is written, that production start in Japan. Also in several US magazines you can read, that customers were waiting for container full of CB from Japan.
Imagination about CB assambly in California is silly, and this is not only one myth about CB750.
John
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Wonder what Bob Jameson would have to say about this "story", having been involved in CB750 devoplment through to production back in '69.
Anyone able to contact him to get a view?
Chris R.
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R.I.P.
a very lucky guy to be at the very forefront of the very first super bike
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So, i asked Vic World about his thoughts on chassis and engines sent to California for assembly. Here is his reply, cut and pasted as sent to me.
"Actually, In July of 1969 Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong took the first frame and engine with them to the moon, assembled most of it on the boring 4 day trip there, and were just left to attaching the tank emblems (on the lunar surface).
In fact, if you listen, you can hear him say "That's one small emblem for man, and one large motorcycle for mankind".
I think the above sounds more credible...doesn't it?"
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I do not like this kind of humor with this mixture of contempt... This answer looks like has of the pissing around...
It is far from giving me the smile...>:(
Gerard
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Gerard, i'm sorry you find the humor offensive. CERTAINLY not the intent.
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Steve thank you, don't be sorry you just quoted...
And where "The Single Overhead Cam Four Owners Club" has t-il found this information which are completely false?
It does not make very serious.. But at the same time they say that the clutch cover Sandcast has 10 holes and the diecast has 11 of it... Without comment!!
The sandcast engines were fitted only to the earliest 1969 models. The first thousand bikes were hand built, mostly in California, as Honda tested the market for this new model. Most of these bikes would have been registered prior to August 1969. A good resource for owners of these highly collectible early CB750′s is the Honda CB750 Sandcast Only Owners Club. You’ll find lots of good information there including details on changes to the bikes in the early years and photos and analysis of the early production bikes.
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3614 (http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3614)
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Steve, I found it quite humorous. Especially since that is just as likely a scenario as assembly in California. Never happened mainly for the reasons you described earlier.
For those who might be offended, I would suggest to take it easy - lighten up. Pretty sure I love the Sandy's as much as anyone, 20+ at last count, but it is not religion - well maybe to some. ;D ;D ;D
The first 2 digit delivered to Pasadena Honda, here in Texas, came from GN Gonzales, the Honda importer in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I know that was a factory crated bike because I personally uncrated and assembled it. Also pretty sure most of the low serials that hit Canada were imported through the Honda importer in New Jersey.
I asked myself how do these fables, with no basis in fact, germinate, propagate, and find their way into print? Unbelievable! When I read this kind of stuff in a listing, it makes me wonder how credible the balance of information might be. Pretty sure this is at least the 3rd time for this bike to be listed. Certainly hope he sells it and gets the money he's asking but that kind of misinformation dissuades me from being interested. IMHO, he would do himself and the Sandcast Community a big favor by removing that (^%$ from his listing.
*** Just read Gerard's post. The intro on this Sandcast Only Website should be changed as there is NO, zero, nada, none, evidence to support it. DID NOT HAPPEN. IMHO. ***
*** "Our" credibility is on the line ***
*** "We" would do the Sandcast Community a big favor by removing such nonsense. ***
Wayne???????????????????????
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This website IS the most objective, evidence based source of infornation on CB750 sandcast machines on the internet. There is no other website i would consider a worthy source of information on anything sandcast.
I don't feel there's anything objectionable with making fun of anything we hold close and passionately.
Over the years, I've heard so many fables about so many motorcycles by so many well intended motorcycle rider/owners. The best story i ever heard was a very sincere fellow telling me his CB750 would go over 170 mph. As well, the internet has no shortage of garbage information written by sincere people or those stroking their egos.
I agree full heartedly with Keith, very little in this everyday life is worth taking very seriously and in the big scheme of things, least of all motorcycles, much less CB750 sandcast motorcycles. Rule 62 says, "Don't take yourself so seriously."
In reference to sandcasts being assembled in California, as the old gal in the hamburger ad asked, "Where's the beef?"
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sohc4 also purports pictorial evidence of a chrome paneled, drum braked prototype CB750 built by Bob Brooks. I personally discussed on the phone this machine with Bob Brooks. Bob built this machine from production sandcast parts, production CB750 parts and production CB450 parts. Bob himself made up the sidecover badges unique to the early pre-production CB750. Bob himself told me, "It was a project i made up for the fun of it."
Yet, many believe this bike to be some factory authentic machine. In fact, it IS a make believe iteration.
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I see no evidence that they were assembled in the USA. Some pics that Vic sent me showing the sandcasts being assembled in Japan:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3936/15448665738_cc07e8e61a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/px9s6Q)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3933/15635632792_64c0147c2b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pPEGTJ)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3937/15014037794_d011a4557f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSJSmA)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3936/15632120321_a053f0cc87_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pPmGKT)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5609/15448672248_c08ecbda9a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/px9u35)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5607/15632121451_75afa149e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pPmH6n)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5613/15014041524_55b72ac735_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oSJTsU)
Seeing these photos and knowing that the engine has to go into the frame fairly early in the assembly process it seems that Honda would have been foolish to have their bikes assembled in the USA. Lets not forget that labor was far cheaper in Japan at the time.
There is no evidence that these bikes were assembled in the USA and there is first-person evidence that they were assembled prior to arriving on USA soil. I think we can fairly say that the sandcasts were assembled in Japan.
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bob brooks
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Mea culpa on the BB machine. Disc brake. Not drum.
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Nice photos Steve, I did not know the second with B.B
I do not assert and I have said never not that there was Sandcast assembled in California, and to see Sandcast on assembly lines HONDA in Japan prove absolutely nothing which denies possible assemblies in parallel for some hundred motorcycles in California, He is certain that there is something behind all this and I think that he it passed something in California in touch with the production of the beginning of the CB750 Sandcast, this "Labelled California" about which we speak since 1969 has to mean something of well préçis has my sense... What? That I do not know him... Maybe what is more it is a completely phony information...
In 1969 there were still no fables or no stories has to sleep up on Sandcast.. Then why to hawk in the USA and in France one such rumors? What interest?
Maybe that one day you will write on the subject: Shit then!! I shall never have believed that possible...
A little as " The Sandcast after the Sandcast ".. Remember yourselves... At the beginning it seemed completely impossible..... Even for Vic World he seems to me... And nevertheless..
Then rather than to reject and condemn "stupidly" this information not to try to dig to know more about it?
To have a certainty...
From my part, I am going to try to contact the author of the book of 1999 "CB750" for the thirty-year to know where from he holds this information " Labelled California "..
And especially, what that means and if it has concrete proofs of what he asserts..
There's no smoke without fire... As we say..
Gerard
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Gerard, i don't disagree with anything you've written. i'd just like to see some evidence sandcast machines were assembled elsewhere than Japan. and, we have no evidence machines were not produced in usa. As far as Wyatt )or any of the other authors) none of these author experts' books are infallible or exhaustive. Wyatt's is a lovely book! the problem i have is the lack of foot noting sources of information. to make a claim and not back it up with a source, only to cryptically say, he is "reliably informed" does nothing to persuade me to believe his statement. i'm no expert. i just know what i have seen. and i have surmised based on my experience probably more than i have seen. in order for me to believe the factory released components to be assembled in usa, i would need evidence. conventional experience supports machines were built in Japan factory.
as we all know with this sandcast stuff, anything's possible !
but..... "Where's the beef?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where%27s_the_beef%3F
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Steve, I completely agree with what you said...
It is good that you do not agree with what I wrote...If all the world agrees, there is no more of discution possible...
I want just to understand why to have invented this "Labelled California" He owes meant something even if this has nothing to do with the assembled of motorcycles in California.
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According to Honda, they did not assemble and produce motorcycles in the US until 1979. Kind of late for a Sandcast, I would say.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=200704023919 (http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=200704023919)
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Steve, I completely agree with what you said...
It is good that you do not agree with what I wrote...If all the world agrees, there is no more of discution possible...
I want just to understand why to have invented this "Labelled California" He owes meant something even if this has nothing to do with the assembly of motorcycles in California.
my understanding is the distribution center for Western US Honda was in California. Gardena, i believe.
To my way of thinking, the crates would be labelled "California" at factroy in Japan, because the destination for the crates was California.
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Yes, it could be a good explanation...
Seventy three boxes arrived in France in the beginning of September, 1969 would have come from California "labelled California" rather than directly from Japan...
Besides, we always spoke about "Labelled" and not about "Assembled", It is completely coherent...
These boxes simply passed by California to arrive to Havre in France... It pleases me well.. ::)
You see Steve, when you put in it of the willingness!!! :D :D ;)
The affair for me is classed!!
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Yes, it could be a good explanation...
Seventy three boxes arrived in France in the beginning of September, 1969 would have come from California "labelled California" rather than directly from Japan...
Besides, we always spoke about "Labelled" and not about "Assembled", It is completely coherent...
These boxes simply passed by California to arrive to Havre in France... It pleases me well.. ::)
You see Steve, when you put in it of the willingness!!! :D :D ;)
The affair for me is classed!!
One of the many things really cool about these bikes is our passion allows us to transcend language and culture to share with each other our thoughts and observations.
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;) and not forgeting the wonders of google translation.
on the subject of stories i went to look at a 1974 k2 CB750 for sale in a local scrap yard
it was in bad shape , so rather than say i was not interested i said i owned a k0 model and was looking for spares for that instead ?
he said his older brother had one of them and it was the first in wales because it had drum brakes, i laughed and said they did not have a front drum brake.he said but his brothers did(probably a CB450) .i often wondered how true this story was has he was just a kid of 16 or 17 and this was in 1984,so had nothing to verify that .we did not even have the phrase sandcast then.so imagine the rumours i could have spread if i had believed him,like i believed the story about the cb750 prototype with a 450 tank(i often wondered why honda never released it what a gorgious bike with that chrome tank
BTW this is the first time i have said this story so don't go looking for a front drum braked sandcast lol its a funny old world
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If a story is told enough times, it can become "fact". The value of site's such as this is that observations and knowledge from many sources can (hopefully) result in a considered and balanced view of correctness.
I was approached by a guy a few years back at a local pub meeting, who recognised the 750 (#5298) as being "one of the first". He did comment "shame it's lost its front drum brake". Having become weary of debates with "experts" at such meetings, I simply retorted "the drum was crap, so I upgraded to a front disc". Guess I did my bit to perpetuate the myth that the early ones had drum brakes fitted!
Chris R.