Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kp on April 17, 2016, 03:54:57 am
-
I've started this thread here as I think it is more a general type discussion ---- and it's a long write and..... please note - I am but one who is submitting an idea/thought/ theory/suggestion, and in no way do I mean the following to be an absolute :o
For a long while I've been thinking about how some VIN/E combinations are close whilst others are way off. Sure, many pairings are as a result of mixing frames with engines from another set and so on. However there are many pairs that have a large spread yet don't seem to be the norm I will use the earliest such as VIN7 E90, VIN9 E98 and VIN28 E132 as examples (but there are many more) as these 3, I submit, are paired from the factory
The statement that a frame/engine combination can be up to 300 out is really a myth IMHO. I actually don't know where this claim originated from or what evidence there is to support the generally held view. No doubt there are FACTORY frame/engine combinations that this can hold true for BUT, and this is the key, why 300 and not 400 or 500. Nevertheless, there are not that many with wide variation and my belief is that the 300 or higher rule should be used with caution for all large variations. Certainly for the first 300 VIN bikes, such a variation is unlikely. As Dwayne said in another post, the number of recorded VINs in our register is not that many so making any observations is at best, just an observation. Indeed the first VIN we register (not including the aforementioned 3 in para 1) with any wide variation is VIN 179 and of the VIN's recorded up to around 1200 there are only 3 with a variation of over 300. Again not a large sample size.
I have looked right through the registry and as we get higher in the VIN numbering there seems to be some interesting variations. Between VIN 2000 and VIN 2999 there is a good number that the a 300 rule would apply even with the small number we have registered. Are they factory pairings. Assume that 50% are then a 300 rule would be reasonable for some. Some years ago I did an exercise of all the then registered VINs and found that over 50% on E numbers were lower than the VIN number. This is an anomaly we've already discussed I just raise it to refresh members memories.
The fact is that most recorded VINs (again small sample size) have an E pairing very close, with the norm being from 50 to 100 difference where a few are up to 200 with a much lesser number over this variation. Some pairings are well out of wack yet these pairings are said (owner claims state this) are original pairings. If I recall Chris R had one of these odd pairings
So the question is why such variation with some pairings. Hmmmm! That's a real dilemma but there are many such pairs that ARE original factory delivered bikes so why?
There is no recorded answer but I believe there are but 2, maybe 3, possibilities.
1: Pure random selection on the production line. High probability/possibility
2: Faulty Engine on quality control test. High possibility
3. ???
I personally think that the #2 is a real possibility and equally real probability given there would have been bikes that failed to pass quality control. Lets be realistic, Honda didn't ship such bikes knowing they had a problem, expecting the dealers to fix
Remember that this was a new engine and new engine assembly line and we do know there were issues such as porosity of the casting. So imagine: a new bike rolls off the production line and during its quality control check an oil leak, engine knock, smoking or any number of issues turns up.
Do they try and repair the engine. I think not
or
Do they take said bike remove the engine and replace it with another. This is the most probable solution but pure conjecture on my part although this currently occurs on modern production lines as I understand
Nevertheless, a fault in an engine on completion from the production line usually results in a replacement being fitted. One can ask why the engine isn't tested prior to installation. My understanding of engine manufacture is that this does not occur for several reasons. All engine assembly conditions/methodologies/trainings are completed during test production phase and the confidence interval for a good engine assembly is high earlier on and becomes very high during later assembly, and testing is better completed during Dyno/Road testing under real load conditions. A problem experienced by all auto manufactures with a new model (certainly in the late 60s 70s) is production teething. Whilst the Japanese had a good track record they were no immune
Anyway I thought this would be a good topic for discussion on a larger membership scale.
-
KP, thanks for taking time to come up with these excellent observations and theories. Engines needing rework is certainly a possibility, would explain single digit and low 2 digit frames with high 2 digit and low 3 digit engines. (that is, over time, as issues in manufacturing processes were identified, one could think it would not be unreasonable to see fewer of these disparate vin pairs.) We know for a fact the pouring of the pre-7415 cases was a slower process than the pressure die cast cases. and we know the pre-7415 cases were more prone to internal irregularities as evidenced by grind marks inside these cases, especially in the crankshaft area.
myself, if i understand correctly what you have written, i also don't ascribe to any particular number to the "Fvin/Evin spread" in sandcast production. as you say, it seems some folks may hold to the "300" theory what i have noted in the past, is *typically* the Evin is higher than the Fvin -and- as the Fvin increases the Fvin and Evin "spread" increases. Back in the day, i put quite a bit of time and thought in to studying the vin ranges as people were sending in their vins in a higher volume than these days. and back in the day, i had maybe a couple hundred vins to study, in contrast to the over 500 we have now. i remember F4363 having E4540 = 177 difference. most recently, F1865 having E1973 = 108. Both these vin sets i am certain are original. both these vin sets portray what one could describe as "conventional thought" as generally the Evin higher than Fvin and an increasing spread from 108 on a 1xxx vin set to 177 on a 4xxx vin set. and of course the wildly disparate vin sets such as 7/E90 or 28/E132 don't fit in to any neat picture of a gradually increasing difference between Fvins and Evins. perhaps in the early days of production, more engines were being assembled than were frames and chassis parts available....... ???
i guess what could be interesting is with the more or less 500 vin sets we've identified, is to find the set with the widest range and the set with the narrowest range. i don't know if it is accurate or reliable to "believe" one should expect to see the range gain an increasing spread for every 1025, 50 or 100 vins produced. and "conventional" thought would lead one to think lower vin ranges should have a narrower spread, and as the vin sets numbers get higher, the spread should widen. a quick look at 7xxx vins in the vin directory seems to pretty much blow up this theory. (and there are some vin sets, probably less than more, that are not factory paired.)
another thing that could be evalauted, in the 1st 100 vin sets, look for a pattern in the vin spread -and- identify the outliers. then in the next 400 vin sets look for a pattern in the vin spread and identify the outliers. ditto for 500 to 1000. Ditto every 500 sets up to the end of the LH horn vins. then ditto RH horn vins every 500 or 1000 frame sets. then it would be fun to identify the outliers and see what sort of "range" existed within these outliers as well as identify how many outliers exist.
as you say, we have too small a sample draw any reliable conclusion from. How many sandcasts actually exist ? we'll never know..... i would hazard to guess the total number of sandcasts that actually exist to perhaps be somewhere between double and triple the 500+ we have in the vin directory. i used to know how many actual vin pairs there were (not counting 'incomplete' sets) but i lost track.
and the other challenge, there has to be, for a number of reasons, some degree of inaccuracy to the vin information we have.
i think the bottom line, when it comes to vin ranges, one cannot arrive at any conclusion to make a hard statement to state as "fact." as far as i am concerned, the majority of this sandcast stuff is that way. in the case of identifiable distinctions, certainly i do believe there are distinctions we expect to see in certain vin ranges and distinctions we wouldn't expect to see in various vin ranges. the fun part about "things sandcast," we are always in for another surprise. as we know, there have been many !!!! ??? !!!!
-
i guess what could be interesting is with the more or less 500 vin sets we've identified, is to find the set with the widest range and the set with the narrowest range. i don't know if it is accurate or reliable to "believe" one should expect to see the range gain an increasing spread for every 1025, 50 or 100 vins produced. and "conventional" thought would lead one to think lower vin ranges should have a narrower spread, and as the vin sets numbers get higher, the spread should widen. a quick look at 7xxx vins in the vin directory seems to pretty much blow up this theory. (and there are some vin sets, probably less than more, that are not factory paired.)
another thing that could be evalauted, in the 1st 100 vin sets, look for a pattern in the vin spread -and- identify the outliers. then in the next 400 vin sets look for a pattern in the vin spread and identify the outliers. ditto for 500 to 1000. Ditto every 500 sets up to the end of the LH horn vins. then ditto RH horn vins every 500 or 1000 frame sets. then it would be fun to identify the outliers and see what sort of "range" existed within these outliers as well as identify how many outliers exist.
Duane seems to have a keen statistical mind, would be interesting to see what he could come up with his study of the vins we've collected.
-
the other thing i forgot to mention, is lower Evin than Fvin. again, this could suggest random "picking" or a correction to the cases or...... ??? ??? ???
would be interesting to see how many lower Evin/higher Fvin sets there are in comparison to opposite.
-
I'm not going to repeat what has been said above in any detail - the above comments are all valid in my view.
What we do know is that the engine / frame number pairing appears random. As to the range of differences, we could take a stab at it by analysing the 500 or so data sets in the directory to find the likely average difference and maximum. This may well support the "300 rule" as being a reasonable guideline, but of course the data is not always accurate as a consequence of engine changes which have happened, sometimes when bikes have been resurrected from parts.
My suspicion is that factory differences stem from a combination of the day to day randomness of production, and the production rate.
On day one we could expect the numbers to be close due to presumably the low number of frames and engines available at the point of assembly. This low number of units would result in a low level of random variation and therefore low difference. As time went on and production rate increased, maybe due to the pool of available frames and engines awaiting assembly being larger, the possible difference in numbers due to randomness of pairing would of increased somewhat.
Then we have those larger than typical differences we appear to see? Three early VINS have been mentioned which appear to have much later engines (7/E90, 9/E98, 28/E132). Maybe something caused these three frames to be held back a little out of the typical random build process, by which time the engine numbers typically being fitted had increased somewhat. No idea what the production rate was in the first week, but I could imagine a modest delay (a few days would of been enough) to cause this apparently large difference. As production rates increased, the same few days could of resulted in much larger differences due to the greater throughput of units. For example, I owned 1256 / E665 some years ago. Difference of 591 which always felt to be wrong (replacement motor some time early in life?) The patina of the motor and frame parts, zinc plating, alloy, etc, and 100% correct placement of every single fastener suggested it to be factory.
I guess what I am suggesting is that there was an ongoing randomness of paring, itself affected by production rate, on which would be super-imposed and increasing difference of a delayed unit as production rates increased.
Hope that carries some kind of logic!
What intrigues me is as to whether the first bike finished (pictured in a Swedish magazine I recall) on March 15 1969 was actually VIN 1 fitted with Engine 1. Wonder if they bothered?
Chris
-
i'm not able to have an owner's manual in front of me, but IF i recall correctly it seems pictured in the manual was Fvin #1 and Evin #2.......??? or maybe this is in the factory workshop manual........???
-
The foto modell in the factory workshop is VIN CB750-1000002 and CB750E-1000004
-
Very interesting discussion but the texts are very long and I have great difficulty with the translator...
All this is related to me a big total overflow problem and "panic" in the production !!
The demand was much stronger than what could produce the assembly lines .... There must be many defects on engines like Kp said...
They had too much pressure and obsession to keep the production they made a lot of defects and errors of numbering...
If you take the time to compare the production of the CB250 and CB350 1968, I am convinced that there is no abnormality of the frame/engine as for Sandcast ...
They had planned a total production of 1,000 bikes to and this is what explains the choice for sand casting and actually overwhelmed by the success they have produced more than 1,200 motorcycles per month.. This is what explains all these mistakes...
It is important not to forget that they have made a huge decision to add engines sandcast in the period Diecast knowing that the Partlist would not be good...
This bike went into production too quickly because Honda had to keep promises not to lose the face its biggest rival KAWASAKI.... For me, It all boils down to this...
-
The foto modell in the factory workshop is VIN CB750-1000002 and CB750E-1000004
Thanks for clarifying Uli ! my memory ain't what it used to be (at work last night.)
-
Very interesting discussion but the texts are very long and I have great difficulty with the translator...
All this is related to me a big total overflow problem and "panic" in the production !!
The demand was much stronger than what could produce the assembly lines .... There must be many defects on engines like Kp said...
They had too much pressure and obsession to keep the production they made a lot of defects and errors of numbering...
If you take the time to compare the production of the CB250 and CB350 1968, I am convinced that there is no abnormality of the frame/engine as for Sandcast ...
They had planned a total production of 1,000 bikes to and this is what explains the choice for sand casting and actually overwhelmed by the success they have produced more than 1,200 motorcycles per month.. Who would not have made a mistake???It is important not to forget that they have made a huge decision to add engine sandcast in the period Diecast knowing that the Partlist would not be good...
It is important not to forget that they have made a huge decision to add engines sandcast in the period Diecast knowing that the Partlist would not be good...
This bike went into production too quickly because Honda had to keep promises not to lose the face its biggest rival KAWASAKI.... For me, It all boils down to this...
Gerard, you make some great points. Where did you learn "They had planned a total production of 1,000 bikes..." ?
i have not looked at this website in years, i found it again. very interesting, doubtful the mockup exists - http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-japanese-motorcycles/kawasaki-z1-prototype.aspx (http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-japanese-motorcycles/kawasaki-z1-prototype.aspx)
-
steve: " i have not looked at this website in years, i found it again. very interesting, doubtful the mockup exists - http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-japanese-motorcycles/kawasaki-z1-prototype.aspx (http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-japanese-motorcycles/kawasaki-z1-prototype.aspx) "
Yes, if Kawasaki was little quicker, maybe the icon will be that Z750. Not sure if that is true, but I have read in some book that Kawasaki wanted to introduce the bike in beginning of 1969, but Honda was quicker - late 1968. So Kawasaki decided to stop this project and to develop and introduced something better - Z1 900........
Several months ago Kawasaki introduced Ninja H2R, which will be very difficult to overtake, even for Honda.
-
not to hijack this thread, i guess i'm a honda guy.... i remember seeing the new Z1's in 1973 on the showroom of JerryCo Motors in Lincoln, Nebraska. i remember thinking thet did not look even nearly as nice as the CB750, but by that time i had "gone british," so the 73 Tridents looked far better than the Z1 or the CB750.
-
Steve and Chris. Great comments on this topic. I'm thinking it would be great to talk to somebody who was actually on the production team at the time I doubt I'll see that happen although I will ask a Japanese friend if he can shed any light on this subject. It is very difficult to have a long conversation due to the language barrier. As Gerard said, long discussions and difficulty in translation although you did OK Gerard with the translation.
The story of Kawasaki is that they were not in a position to get the win over Honda as their project was well behind that of the CB750. Kawasaki were initially doing a 750 as this was the limit for motorcycle size in Japan but whith the CB750 release KHI made the decision to produce the 900 to try to gain an advantage over Honda. I'm not sure of the date that mock up was released but I think 69 is closer to the mark than 68 which indicates KHI were in early development at that time. I always thought rocket 3 pipe design they used was a bit much
-
"I always thought rocket 3 pipe design they used was a bit much."
looked like shit then. pure sex now.
-
I have F6457 and E7083, 626 range. I am 100% certain that this is the original motor. 1) The motorcycle arrived in Brazil 0km in early 1970 . 2) There is only this Sandcast in Brazil.
-
I have F6457 and E7083, 626 range. I am 100% certain that this is the original motor. 1) The motorcycle arrived in Brazil 0km in early 1970 . 2) There is only this Sandcast in Brazil.
Marcello, your bike has interesting history as i recall.
-
Yeah, looked shit on the Kwaker mock up but I have to confess that I loved the pipes on the Rocket 3. One thing the Brits did well with their bikes was design. That Rocket 3 was such a nice machine to look at as was the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia
-
Yeah, looked shit on the Kwaker mock up but I have to confess that I loved the pipes on the Rocket 3. One thing the Brits did well with their bikes was design. That Rocket 3 was such a nice machine to look at as was the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia
hi jacking by hi yakkin. i be settin bad example. picture of my 1974 Mk.II
-
h a nice machine to look at IS the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia
we were talking how honda beat kaw to the draw and before that we were talking about how honda was under pressure to get their bike out as they knew kaw had their own project and the pressure honda felt perhaps was one casual factor in adjustments/repairs to crankcases causing cases with vins already stamped to be held back. blame it all on Gerard..... ;D ;D just joking, Gerard ! actually we deviated off topic with some very interesting side information, nice sharing and good "conversation." i stabbed the pig with my Commando picture....... blame it on me ;D ;D (retirement must be making me silly....)
ps to Gerard, great stuff you post and truly appreciate the fact you have to use a translator. i understand all that you write. True enthusiast !
-
h a nice machine to look at IS the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia
we were talking how honda beat kaw to the draw and before that we were talking about how honda was under pressure to get their bike out as they knew kaw had their own project and the pressure honda felt perhaps was one casual factor in adjustments/repairs to crankcases causing cases with vins already stamped to be held back. blame it all on Gerard..... ;D ;D just joking, Gerard ! actually we deviated off topic with some very interesting side information, nice sharing and good "conversation." i stabbed the pig with my Commando picture....... blame it on me ;D ;D (retirement must be making me silly....)
ps to Gerard, great stuff you post and truly appreciate the fact you have to use a translator. i understand all that you write. True enthusiast !
Steve, you have much chance to understand what I write...
And I remind you that photos of British bikes are prohibited on this site!!! :D ;D ;D ;D
Thank you all for the effort you make to understand my Frenglish!! ;)
For me when I translated into English and in French after I not understand a sentence that is written in French!!
You should know that I change the French text several times to get something coherent in English...
This may seem off-topic but actually not at all... Because it is related to the questions that you ask and you will never have the answers ...
All these errors and numbering changes from the fact that Honda have completely underestimated its production for the CB750 ... The choice of sand casting is irrefutable evidence ...
I'll try to found the article where a specialist talks about a production of 1,000 bikes reserved mainly the USA ...
It was also written that 20% of cranckases emerge from the foundry faulty ...
Then surely cranckases were found mounted on motorcycles with invisible defects were detected with control of oil leakage... Always in a hurry they remove the engine and shall hand another with higher numbers... I think corroborates with what our friend Kp for numbering gaps...
All this is related only to the foundry defect and not problems related to mechanics ... Because everyone knows that Honda knows assembled correctly the engines ...
But sincerely I struggle to understand the choice of Honda for the sand-casting.. ??? ??? ???
They understood the lesson for the development of the 6 CBX 1000 for just a few engines were made in sand casting for testing ....The CB1E-2000015 engine sandcast is sold at auction for £5,125 (€6,489).....
This is a ridiculous sale price..!! Too bad I hase not the money because it would have been nice in my living room...
link:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21136/lot/205/ (https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21136/lot/205/)
-
I totally agree. Posting a photo of a British bike on this site is going too far indeed.
-
Gerard - Yes ! i know the effort of using translators, i had to order some parts for my Harley Davidson restoration using Bing. having to change the sentence several times. have done quite a bit of english to czech. so i respect the effort of your thoughtful replies. as much as i dislike computers, we could not have the fellowship of this site without them.
KP (and Gerard) - i set more 'bad' presedence :o :o :o :o :o
i think we're capable of not totally robbing a thread's subject matter, so just a little something different to liven the old forum up a bit.
-
Superb restauration!! But why do you have a John Deere tractor seat ?? ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
you have John Deere's in France ?
-
Yes ... They all John Deere here !!
-
Great discussion KP!
I am taking us back to the original thread.
I have a theory on some of the higher Sandcast Frame & Engine mismatches from bikes we know are factory correct:
In any production environment, mishaps occur, we call them non-conformances in industry today, non-conformances are pulled off the line to fix an investigate. These units usually get corrected and reintroduced back at the point they were discovered, or they are scrapped. Honda had to pull some of the Sandcasts off the line to fix or investigate issues. Is this where the blue and red dots placed on the top of some cases becomes a factor?
During the first week of production pulling Frame 7 off for a few days,especially since it was one of the first frames down the line doesn't seem odd to me.
Reviewing upper engine case casting dates it would have been maybe a week or two theoretically) before Engine 90 would have been available to place in this frame. I draw this conclusion based on the higher engine number top casting dates in the directory, since the first engines produced did not contain this information. This is all speculation.
Studying the frame vin numbers and engines numbers and looking closely at the top casting dates, I truly believe the engines numbers were stamped at the point where they were close to entering the the frame, during final assembly. Reviewing the upper case casting date shows clear evidence of this theory. Of course my thoughts are all theory as I have no true facts to fall back on, but the engine casting date do show a pattern.
I wish more members would update the Vin/Frame information with top casting dates, as I believe this would start to show a pattern of factory matched frame and engine combination and show which month's in 1969, the Sandcast Vin ranges fall between for rough comparisons and would provide the earliest starting point within the month a bike could have possibly been assembled, so we would have more data to analyze for comparisons.
Best,
DW
-
KP,
Here is what the VIN Directory shows us all in, keep in mind this is all Vin/Frame combinations we currently have listed, did not sort for non-factory paired an assembled bikes, as they are not all identified.
58% have Engine numbers higher that Frame
42% have Engine Numbers lower than the Frame Vin
Conclusion, probability is higher for an Engine number to be higher than Frame.
Best,
DW
-
Great discussion KP!
I am taking us back to the original thread.
I have a theory on some of the higher Sandcast Frame & Engine mismatches from bikes we know are factory correct:
In any production environment, mishaps occur, we call them non-conformances in industry today, non-conformances are pulled off the line to fix an investigate. These units usually get corrected and reintroduced back at the point they were discovered, or they are scrapped. Honda had to pull some of the Sandcasts off the line to fix or investigate issues. Is this where the blue and red dots placed on the top of some cases becomes a factor?
During the first week of production pulling Frame 7 off for a few days,especially since it was one of the first frames down the line doesn't seem odd to me.
Reviewing upper engine case casting dates it would have been maybe a week or two theoretically) before Engine 90 would have been available to place in this frame. I draw this conclusion based on the higher engine number top casting dates in the directory, since the first engines produced did not contain this information. This is all speculation.
Studying the frame vin numbers and engines numbers and looking closely at the top casting dates, I truly believe the engines numbers were stamped at the point where they were close to entering the the frame, during final assembly. Reviewing the upper case casting date shows clear evidence of this theory. Of course my thoughts are all theory as I have no true facts to fall back on, but the engine casting date do show a pattern.
I wish more members would update the Vin/Frame information with top casting dates, as I believe this would start to show a pattern of factory matched frame and engine combination and show which month's in 1969, the Sandcast Vin ranges fall between for rough comparisons and would provide the earliest starting point within the month a bike could have possibly been assembled, so we would have more data to analyze for comparisons.
Best,
DW
nice write up, Duane !
-
Yes that makes sense. I do know Kawasaki used engines with stamped numbers to stock their spare parts inventory. A good friend of mine who's was a US citizen (born and bred) did his trade for a large Kawasaki dealership in California. I say was because he moved to NZ and then to Aust He took out NZ citizenship. Anyway he told me there were 5 new engines shipped to the US by KHI for the spare parts inventory at Kawasaki America and all were consecutively numbered. Now believe this, he bought 2 of these engines to make a double engined drag bike. He now lives near me aged 70 and in all his boxes of Kawasaki stuff sits these 2 NOS Kawasaki 900 engines numbered in the 12XX range I can;t remember the exact numbers but they are 72 year engines with all the rare bits on them.
So I guess Honda would have done the same thing with complete engines i.e.: sent fully stamped completed engines to their parts inventory and I guess this would have been worldwide. This act in itself would support the probability that there should be higher engine numbers in the long run. Interestingly, the first 1000 VIN registrations (90) only 33 engines are below the frame VIN. If you look to the 500 to 599 frame group there are no engines in the 500 range; small sample though it is. If you look at the 800 series only 1 and if you look at 1000 group there are none. If you note that the 4000 to 4999 VIN group 43 of the 52 matched pairs have a lower engine number. Why? I am baffled. Similar situation with the 5000 series approx 35 from 55 are lower engine numbers. When we get tot he 6000 series it changes again to higher engine numbers to the VINs. Interesting stuff (well it is to me at least)
-
Yes that makes sense. I do know Kawasaki used engines with stamped numbers to stock their spare parts inventory. A good friend of mine who's was a US citizen (born and bred) did his trade for a large Kawasaki dealership in California. I say was because he moved to NZ and then to Aust He took out NZ citizenship. Anyway he told me there were 5 new engines shipped to the US by KHI for the spare parts inventory at Kawasaki America and all were consecutively numbered. Now believe this, he bought 2 of these engines to make a double engined drag bike. He now lives near me aged 70 and in all his boxes of Kawasaki stuff sits these 2 NOS Kawasaki 900 engines numbered in the 12XX range I can;t remember the exact numbers but they are 72 year engines with all the rare bits on them.
So I guess Honda would have done the same thing with complete engines i.e.: sent fully stamped completed engines to their parts inventory and I guess this would have been worldwide. This act in itself would support the probability that there should be higher engine numbers in the long run. Interestingly, the first 1000 VIN registrations (90) only 33 engines are below the frame VIN. If you look to the 500 to 599 frame group there are no engines in the 500 range; small sample though it is. If you look at the 800 series only 1 and if you look at 1000 group there are none. If you note that the 4000 to 4999 VIN group 43 of the 52 matched pairs have a lower engine number. Why? I am baffled. Similar situation with the 5000 series approx 35 from 55 are lower engine numbers. When we get tot he 6000 series it changes again to higher engine numbers to the VINs. Interesting stuff (well it is to me at least)
Facinating!
-
Yeah, looked shit on the Kwaker mock up but I have to confess that I loved the pipes on the Rocket 3. One thing the Brits did well with their bikes was design. That Rocket 3 was such a nice machine to look at as was the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia
hi jacking by hi yakkin. i be settin bad example. picture of my 1974 Mk.II
Steve.....GREAT Commando!!!!,
-
The Vin/Engine spread is an old story for many of us.
It's a drill into our brains.
In this forum we found a lot of answers to all of our doubts and questions that perhaps do not even put the designers of this bike that we love.
Yet we always return to the same question mark.
In 2008 I bought a sandcast by Chris, the 1256 / E665, a bike with a big spread.
Yet the engine was never out of that frame.
After some time Chris contacted me and told me that this was the right engine of the motorcycle.
That probably there is a matching list of Numbers that someone owns and perhaps has no interest in disclosing it.
We certainly our bikes have a unique feature, the engines can not be cloned, which in the world of collecting is done quite often and this is an irrefutable fact.
So I believe the spread is something quite natural and that occurred probably due to organizational reasons at a time when there was a growing interest in the market and that, probably, sent into a tailspin a major corporation such as Honda.
Riccardo
-
I have debated posting this information, but I really think I have uncovered a new Sandcast breakthrough or this will open up some new thoughts on how Frame and Engine Vin's were paired.
The skeptics will say this cannot happen, but bare with me with an open mind please.
To date, the current Vin Directory has four Frame and Engine Vin paired with a delta of 1. Two have 1 digit higher Engine number stamping sand two that are 1 digit lower, but nonetheless, four are paired within one number. I hear that a Sandcast exists that has matching numbers, but it is not listed in the Vin Directory.
Here comes the controversy, Steve was asking what the highest recorded Frame/Engine mismatch? Well, I purchased a Sandcast last summer with Frame 3223 and E1685 which is - 1538 from the frame. The bike has the original owner history. This Sandcast got me interested in the Vin ranges as I tried to figure out how this might happen. Being curious, I have dug deep into the Frame and Engine pairings trying to figure this bike out. Here is the interesting and intriguing part of my discovery. The top engine casting date on E1685 is June 23 (6-23).
The top casting date falls in line with the the frame Vin date, which seems to me, the Engines were stamped close to the same time it was placed in the frame, or Honda re-stamped 1685, as it clearly falls outside any normal range distribution in the Vin Directory. Here are the Sandcasts I own that are produced before and after 3223 with top casting dates before and after June 23, but still falling in the month of June.
3043/2765 - 6-13 thin lip 9 hole clutch cover
3223/1685 - 6-23 blue engine dot - original unmolested Sandcast (rare)
4089/3599 - 6-24 right hand horn
The top casting date is in line with the Frame Vin ranges, but Engine number is clearly not in normal or expected ranges. The engine of E1685 has a blue dot on the top casing. Could the dots really indicate an issue with an engine???
I am now very curious if other known original pairings contain engine dots with higher than "normal" mis-pairings. Is this the reason for the engine dots?. Ricardo or Chris, does 1256/E665 have an engine dot on it?
3223/E1685 is all original not having any restoration work and is in original factory assembled condition. This bike did have a windshield on it (removed), grips replaced, tires replaced, battery replaced, oil filter housing replaced, and chain replaced. but other than those mentioned items is a factory original bike.
We need more top casting dates to be published to get more information on this topic.
Attached is the Engine Number stamping.
Best,
Duane
-
I have debated posting this information, but I really think I have uncovered a new Sandcast breakthrough or this will open up some new thoughts on how Frame and Engine Vin's were paired.
The skeptics will say this cannot happen, but bare with me with an open mind please.
To date, the current Vin Directory has four Frame and Engine Vin paired with a delta of 1. Two have 1 digit higher Engine number stamping sand two that are 1 digit lower, but nonetheless, four are paired within one number. I hear that a Sandcast exists that has matching numbers, but it is not listed in the Vin Directory.
Here comes the controversy, Steve was asking what the highest recorded Frame/Engine mismatch? Well, I purchased a Sandcast last summer with Frame 3223 and E1685 which is - 1538 from the frame. The bike has the original owner history. This Sandcast got me interested in the Vin ranges as I tried to figure out how this might happen. Being curious, I have dug deep into the Frame and Engine pairings trying to figure this bike out. Here is the interesting and intriguing part of my discovery. The top engine casting date on E1685 is June 23 (6-23).
The top casting date falls in line with the the frame Vin date, which seems to me, the Engines were stamped close to the same time it was placed in the frame, or Honda re-stamped 1685, as it clearly falls outside any normal range distribution in the Vin Directory. Here are the Sandcasts I own that are produced before and after 3223 with top casting dates before and after June 23, but still falling in the month of June.
3043/2765 - 6-13 thin lip 9 hole clutch cover
3223/1685 - 6-23 blue engine dot - original unmolested Sandcast (rare)
4089/3599 - 6-24 right hand horn
The top casting date is in line with the Frame Vin ranges, but Engine number is clearly not in normal or expected ranges. The engine of E1685 has a blue dot on the top casing. Could the dots really indicate an issue with an engine???
I am now very curious if other known original pairings contain engine dots with higher than "normal" mis-pairings. Is this the reason for the engine dots?. Ricardo or Chris, does 1256/E665 have an engine dot on it?
3223/E1685 is all original not having any restoration work and is in original factory assembled condition. This bike did have a windshield on it (removed), grips replaced, tires replaced, battery replaced, oil filter housing replaced, and chain replaced. but other than those mentioned items is a factory original bike.
We need more top casting dates to be published to get more information on this topic.
Attached is the Engine Number stamping.
Best,
Duane
Duane, i think you may very well be on to something. Great inference and deduction. Yours is one of the reasons i requested casting dates. I hope members send them in. Interesting how early production cases do not have casting dates.
-
Very interesting thoughts.
I think that cases were stamped prior to engine assembly but post machining as they have stamped letter/numbers on the rear of each half that obviously signify pair matching after line boring/machining etc. E numbers could also be undertake post assembly also but I believe stamping would have been much easier with a bare case than a completed engine. Just a thought. Case halves do not necessarily get cast on the same day.
One thing that does intrigue me is the different engine number pads. All early pads (the ones we have records of) are the narrow type. Changes to a wider pad started occurring around E 600 or so (894 and 958 are wider pads) but there are some engines where the narrow pad is seen on cases over E1100 I can't recall the number but thought it was Chris' E1106. Marty, does E664 have a wide pad
KP
-
I tear me to understand the meaning of the text...???
But I'll try to answer what I think I understand ...
Duane, but why add a blue or red sticker on the engine? To say what? and to whom? Why use two colors to only report a problem? the red warned what? the blue warned what?
We can also assume that initially all motorcycles coming out of the assembly lines receive a blue or red sticker for any other reason?
I just try to understand ...
-
Gerald,
I think the dot might be present on engines that had an issue or might represent an issue once assembled. Frame 3223 would have been assembled in June, but all other 16xx engines have May cast dates on the top of the engine. I believe something happened in assembly with E1685. Thus the blue dot.
E1685 should theoretically have a May top casting date (around May 20th) but was clearly cast in June. If falls far outside the normal population distribution.
E10xx-E21xx all have May stamped top engine casting dates.
E22xx-36xx have June top casting dates.
I have identified 5 other Engine casting dates that fall outside the normal distribution. I plan to reach out individually to these owners to see if the top of the engine contains a blue dot as these owners may not what to be called out on db.
Let me know if you need me to structure my sentences differently for translations.
Best,
Duane
-
Gerald,
I think the dot might be present on engines that had an issue or might represent an issue once assembled. Frame 3223 would have been assembled in June, but all other 16xx engines have May cast dates on the top of the engine. I believe something happened in assembly with E1685. Thus the blue dot.
E1685 should theoretically have a May top casting date (around May 20th) but was clearly cast in June. If falls far outside the normal population distribution.
E10xx-E21xx all have May stamped top engine casting dates.
E22xx-36xx have June top casting dates.
I have identified 5 other Engine casting dates that fall outside the normal distribution. I plan to reach out individually to these owners to see if the top of the engine contains a blue dot as these owners may not what to be called out on db.
Let me know if you need me to structure my sentences differently for translations.
Best,
Duane
Let me know if you need me to structure my sentences differently for translations. Thanks for that !!
How do you explain the blue dot of the VIN 97 E-100 to our friend Mark?
And the red dots, you explain the how? Why as red dots?
Why use two colors to only report a problem???
Thanks,
Gerard (without L) ;)
-
i believe Duane is raising some very good observations. particularly with 1685 having a June casting date. and the rest of what he said. and the fact he has reached out to the 5 owners with vin/casting number outliers will be interesting what he discovers.
i believe Gerard is asking some strong questions, but difficult to truly, if ever, find an answer. and i "see" Gerard's logic. "why 2 colors to only report a problem?"
the above dialog is excellent. this is exactly how the scientific method challenges theory or how archeologists challenge what they believe about there findings. we sandcast enthusiasts ARE archeologists of a sort.
i still think Duane's study is necessary, if not solid and could lead us to support our theory or further postulate what we "think" happened at the factory. another and a more difficult approach would be to take all cases with dots and inspect the inside and outside of cases for any factory corrections, repairs. we know the factory modified and repaired cases, because we have visualized modifications and repairs that could have happened ONLY at the factory.
i wonder if Emi Oye of Yamiya knows anyone who worked at factory who knows about the dots. for us sandcast folk, those dots are called "sandcast UFO's." ??? ??? ??? ???
-
First off...my apologies for the bad spelling on the name Gerard!!!
I run a large production line for a living, and we have different ways to mark issues that happen in production to address some rework issues we tag certain problems, so this is why I was asking about the dots or Sandcast UFOs....as Steve now calls them ;D
From what I've read on the db, the dots do not correlate to the body set colors. Mark's 97/E100 is a good example of that as the original 19L tank was red, so the dots had to have another meaning during assembly.
The real enlighten and discovery moment for me, was the engine's number on 3223/E1685 being cast in June and the rest of the engines with June top casting date being much higher (E21xx-36xx).
This still leads me to believe the engines were stamped at a point when they were close to being assembled in the frames and this theory goes against prior assumptions.
Best,
Duane
-
Duane for me, you were already apologized... ;)
-
KP engine number 664 has a small vin pad as does 181. Marty K.
-
E1106 has a small VIN pad, and appears to be quite a high engine number for a small pad. The casting date is 4/23 which (based on the limited number of other casting date records) seems to be a little earlier than other similar large pad engine numbers. Maybe indeed this one was held back a while before stamping of the number. That said, it is in frame 1120, so a really close "match" in that respect?
Chris R.
-
Chris,
Any evidence that this engine had a blue or red dot placed close to the top casting date?
Thanks much,
Duane
-
I think the small vin pad on Chris' E1106 with it being a higher E number, could also possibly support the theory that the engines were stamped close to same time as the Fame Vin.
DW
-
KP engine number 664 has a small vin pad as does 181. Marty K.
The reason I asked Marty about his Engine number pad is because the casting date is June 3. This means they were 1. still using the same sand box mould blanks in June to cast 664, 2. the codes are not dates at all (unlikely) or 3. the casting date quoted in the VIN registry is incorrect. If the latter 2 are not appropriate then we have a real dilemma.
-
HELLO!! I'LL THROW AN IDEA OUT THERE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT COLOR DOTS ON THE ENGINE CASES. HOW ABOUT ONE COLOR DESIGNATING A PROBLEM WITH THAT PARTICULAR ENGINE, THE OTHER COLOR DESIGNATING THE REQUIRED REPAIRS WERE COMPLETED. COMMENTS??
-
The reason I asked Marty about his Engine number pad is because the casting date is June 3. This means they were 1. still using the same sand box mould blanks in June to cast 664, 2. the codes are not dates at all (unlikely) or 3. the casting date quoted in the VIN registry is incorrect. If the latter 2 are not appropriate then we have a real dilemma.
OK now I am sounding like a stuck record, maybe the engines were not stamped until they were tested and close to the frame assembly. This theory answers some questions on how the E numbers don't always match-up closely to the frame numbering in several instances. This is all speculation as we don't know:
1) When the engines tested fine there was a close frame/engine pairing, but in the few instances when problems occurred the engines were repaired or scrapped.
2) My guess is frames were almost always good, but engines had some problems.
3) Honda would have needed to make every engine they assemble a good engines if they stamped them right after the casting.
4) As noted, 7414 Frames had Sandcast engines (plus the know French Sandcasts).
5) I would think some issues occurred once engines were assembled, so are there big gaps in the engine numbers? Are engine numbers not sequential? I would think not, but maybe.
In most production assembly operation, the serial numbers are not placed on the final product until all components are proven to operate and meet quality standards. The Japanese had some of the highest, if not the highest quality standards in the world at this time, thanks to Deming.
We will more than likely never really know what happened on Honda's assembly line, but I am sure as more factory frame/engine pairing are known, we will gain additional insights.
DW
-
I don't think your sounding like a cracked record rather your giving logical consideration to possibilities. I'm just intrigued as to why Marty's narrow pad top case was cast in June when these cases seem to have stopped being cast in March. Maybe, and this is probably a wacko idea, the narrow pad case and the wide pad cases are incompatible. Now there's a spanner in the works. Duane, taking one of your comments on board in that an engine is trashed because of a major fault then that engine number becomes useable or wasn't initially stamped or that a new top half was machined to replace a faulty case, thus the number needed to be restamped or whatever. I am totally at loss as to why a narrow pad case was cast in June
Marty, maybe you could do some detective work and see if there any differences between narrow pad cases and wide pad cases
Does anyone else have bare cases to compare. There has to be a reason
-
I'll take a look and do some comparisons. Marty K.
-
I don't think your sounding like a cracked record rather your giving logical consideration to possibilities. I'm just intrigued as to why Marty's narrow pad top case was cast in June when these cases seem to have stopped being cast in March. Maybe, and this is probably a wacko idea, the narrow pad case and the wide pad cases are incompatible. Now there's a spanner in the works. Duane, taking one of your comments on board in that an engine is trashed because of a major fault then that engine number becomes useable or wasn't initially stamped or that a new top half was machined to replace a faulty case, thus the number needed to be restamped or whatever. I am totally at loss as to why a narrow pad case was cast in June
Marty, maybe you could do some detective work and see if there any differences between narrow pad cases and wide pad cases
Does anyone else have bare cases to compare. There has to be a reason
It is impossible to replace only the upper part of a housing engine because they are machined in pairs...
We must replace the lower and upper together..
It is possible that the guy who introduced the stamps in the mold was wrong numbers .... Or an old mold
was reused during the period of broad plates ...
The question to be asked ....
During the short period of blue and red points is that all motorcycles have received a blue or red dot?
It's not impossible, because we do not know why they were put on the engines ...
Personally, if I see a red or blue dot on my bike I take it off and maybe the guys did the same thing, set apart some for whom it did not matter..
-
Regarding the question about a coloured dot on E1106, I really can't remember. 25 YEARS now since those cases were blasted and prepped for re-build, and still not re-assembled (and no digital camera back then to make recording of detail easy)!
Scary how life passes us by.
Chris R.
-
It is impossible to replace only the upper part of a housing engine because they are machined in pairs...
We must replace the lower and upper together..
Gerard you are incorrect. It is indeed possible to mix case halves. Maybe not feasible but certainly not impossible
-
KP nice one, definitely can be done, but definitely not recommended. Marty K.
-
You guys are evaluating the situation based on the assumption that all the engines and frames were numbered consecutively. If they were batch manufacturing they may have had milestone goals. The first period, days or a month for example the goal was 200 bikes. If the frame manufacturing group hit the goal they built 200 frames numbered from 100 to 300. The next batch of frames was slated to start at 301 and run to 501. Mean while the engine manufacturing line only completed engine 100 to 275 as an example. When the next batch production started they began with vin 300 but it went into frame 276 that was waiting for an engine.
Maybe the frame and engine numbers. started with vin numbers matched to the start date of the batch regardless of where they finished the last batch ???
-
One important issue for Honda should be spare parts. In the parts lists all items are referred to frame Vin numbers, also the engine parts. In order for the customer to get the right engine parts Honda had to connect changed engine parts with fixed frame numbers. I know this is not correct every time but worth consider when E-vin are paired to frame Vins. Parts for the french sandcast will be very odd with this reasoning.
/Ken
-
It is impossible to replace only the upper part of a housing engine because they are machined in pairs...
We must replace the lower and upper together..
Gerard you are incorrect. It is indeed possible to mix case halves. Maybe not feasible but certainly not impossible
Yes, what is forbidden is not impossible... just forbidden !! I agree... ;D ;D ;D ;D