Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve Swan on April 18, 2016, 06:21:45 pm
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over the course of time we've had a fair amount of discussion on vin font.
this is just an thought, but it seems like a reasonable idea to identify, define and classify characteristics of fonts. that is, identify, define and classify the distinctive characteristics of the font for each numeral, 0 through 9. ditto C and B fonts. ditto the - font.
taking a step further, determine for possible variations in actual font(s.)
would be fun to post an enlarged picture of each letter and each numeral, examine each one and document the distinctions of each.
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This would be a great thread to persue given the interest shown over VIN and Engine font characters over the years. One comment I would like to share relating to frame VINs
Original stamping of the frame caused the displacement of metal both sideways and up. In essence the metal is squeezed by the act of stamping. This caused the letters and numbers to have a raised edge. Depending on the depth this is easily identified on original unmolested frames. Sanding and sandblasting of the frame tends to smooth out these features and when the act of sandblasting and sanding becomes vigorous the shape of the font can become a little less obvious, although the font shape doesn't alter. Repaint a frame then has the added problem of paint filling the space left by the stamp
One only needs to look at an original unmolested frame ID and a restored ID to see what I am referring to
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who is capable of taking nice large distinct pictures of each letter and each numeral so we can post them here ? then we can discuss the font of each numeral and each letter. only 10 numerals and 2 letters ;D ;D ;D ;D
clearly, we'd want to have the best examples possible so we could use them as a baseline for comparison to all other font. would also be interesting to see if or what variations of font we find. as well as if we could believe there are different fonts used. (Indian and Harley Davidson, over the years, used different fonts for their vins.)
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3 letters 😎
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Engine number fonts are the cleanest and I've not seen any variations to the stamps. it would be good to have some frame stampings as well so we can identify the various misalignment and non square hit impressions. I had a photo folder full of Honda stampings but lost the when I had a computer melt down I still have a few around so I'll try and post some.
Marty has a large collection of frames, engines and bikes so he might be able to assist
Over to the membership here
I believe they used the same font over the production life of the 750 I'm sure my CBX has the same font as well as did my 1100R. My RC30 had a machined stamped number but I cannot remember if it was the same font. Sadly I sold this bike
I'll look at my others when I get home
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3 letters 😎
ooooops 8) u b rite..... ;D
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yes, if someone like Marty or Keith for that matter can take pictures of their vins, that would be nice. or perhaps Duane. i know between the 3 of these guys, they have to have some somewhat bare frames and engines out of frame to take some good pictures of 10 numerals and 3 letters of alphabet.
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Steve give me a few days (7) i'll list pictures of all the frame and engine vins i have for the font project. Marty k.
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Beautiful, Marty ! just an idea, maybe send them to KP so he can photo shop the vins' each individual letter and numeral and enlarge them. is suppose he could download them off the forum for that matter. am sure he'll see this and respond or else i'll email him and tell him to keep an eye open. Thanks, Marty !
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Ok i will kick things off,
here is mine
pete
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10004/Capture_2.JPG)
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I'm not an expert photographer so I need to state this up front. However. can I make some suggestions to the sorts of photographs that will serve the purpose. The selection of the subject is important. Good clean clear frame and engine numbers is vital. Try and avoid photographs where the subject numbers are not clean and free from paint, oil, dirt etc. Where possible try and have good natural light. Above all, take the photograph square on to the subject. If you have a tripod or acces to one then use it as you will be surprised how good your photographs become, especially the closer shots.
Pete can I use your photograph as an example. The subject is perfect, the lighting is good, the numbers are free from any marks etc, colouring is excellent, but the picture is not ideal. The photographs we're needing should be taken square on so the first letter of the VIN and the last number are equidistance from the camera lens. Maybe the CB750 can be one shot and the actual frame/engine number the other.
Pete, as I said the subject is perfect so could I ask you to take several shots and email them to me as our Board limit is 2 Mb per photo. Maybe take some shots from different distances. If the resolution is high they will expand and crop easily. If you have a tripod, great
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Hi KP, i took a few shots of my numbers when i cleaned the frame ready for painting , the frame is now painted and the numbers are flooded with paint so this is the best i have, below is my engine number, you are welcome to use both
pete
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10004/setember_10th_till_22__2012_Alanya_holiday_photos_023.JPG)
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THATSABEAUTY ;D ;D ;D ;D
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it would also be nice to have pictures of weak stamps, partially incomplete stamps.
i'll see if i can get a good straight on shot of F2157 in good light, frame has original paint. i'll try to get one of E2241, but engine's in frame.....
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That's a good shot Pete. Thanks
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Looks like mine are raised and they were done with the casting ??
It is not uninteresting...
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If you look at the top stroke on the E and the top stroke of the 5 you will see they have a gap (not joined) to the downward stroke. This is cler evidence this is a genuine Honda stamping, but then all the fonts on these cases are Honda originals. K ;D
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these are the best vin pictures to date i recall seeing, makes it very easy to see distinctions.
prior to these pictures and looking at my vins, i've always noticed, other than the 1, the rest of the numeral fonts are "split" or depending on picture quality appear split.
pretty much every vin we see here are not exactly in line.
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Looks like mine are raised and they were done with the casting ??
But I can confirm that they are hollow.
It is not uninteresting... Is it good for you?
very interesting optical illusion. if i take my eyes away from picture and then look at it the stamps are recessed, but then turn to "raised."
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Good photo Gerard, Do you see the oddity with the 8
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Good photo Gerard, Do you see the oddity with the 8
I do not like that one critique my 8 Kp... ;D ;D ;)
Yes I noticed there was to be a dirt under 8 when buffering ....
I found this drawing posted on another site by Aurelia B20 done well
and this gives a good idea of the font used by Honda...
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Good photo Gerard, Do you see the oddity with the 8
i noticed that too, sort of appears to be a little break at 4 o'clock on the upper part of 8. is that part of font ?
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I do not see anything strange around 8... Just a fault in the matrix that has stamped the 8 ... And if we start to look with a magnifying glass, there will not be a lot of winner on arrival....
Do not confuse everything to not lose you and mislead you !!
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do all 8's look like that ?
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Absolutely... Never seen 8 different of it. And if someone has a different model from 8 then I want to see, because I'm very interested... :o :o
Considering that several workers took turns in 3/8 day with tools that were their own ... It is what explains these changes in the marking of numbers not really aesthetic, but never doubt for me...
I did some research and I found pictures of 8 with perhaps the same defects..??
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here are 2 of My 3 sandcast bikes, also with casting date:
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Here's a picture of my RC30 frame number You will see that the individual font letters are exactly the same. This is an 87 model so we have the same fonts used for 18 years
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This photo is not a bike I own I downloaded the photo from eBay years ago because it showed the fonts very clearly.
If you enlarge this photo and specifically look at the 0 in the CB750 stamp you can see the crater effect where the stamp has compressed the metal inward, sideways and up at the edges just as if it is a mini meteor crater. Neat yes!
I also added a cropped image but did lose some quality in the process
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One more observation, look at the triangular depression (outline) on the Engine Number on the 7 in the photo and the rectangular depression on outline on both of the 1 fonts.
I own a Diecast with the exact outlines. These numbers have really deep strikes, and let you see the shape of the die tooling used for the numbers
I found it interesting.
DW
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One more observation, look at the triangular depression (outline) on the Engine Number on the 7 in the photo and the rectangular depression on outline on both of the 1 fonts.
I own a Diecast with the exact outlines. These numbers have really deep strikes, and let you see the shape of the die tooling used for the numbers
I found it interesting.
DW
I also notice that the E and - are both in the same matrix...
I think Honda used this font for all its production because I had two small coupe Honda S800 (fantastic!!) and the numbers of police were identical to the chassis and engine ...