Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve Swan on June 11, 2018, 01:03:44 pm
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Gerard very graciously parted with one of his points covers that does not have "Made in Japan" stamped in the cover. These unstamped covers are those which we continue to believe is the same cover fitted to the gold late pre-production Brighton bike (2110/E2110) and the blue-green (2113/E2113) bike. Pictures taken from my collection of sandcast-era literature of both of 2110 and 2113 distinctly reveal points covers without the "Made in Japan" stamping. Attached are pictures of the cover i received from Gerard; this cover came in factory Honda wrapping paper, and factory Honda plastic bag. The wrapping paper very clearly has been around the the cover for a long time, at least long enough to take the shape of the cover. The plastic bag is clearly sandcast-era and not fresh.
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Steve ;) Can you share all the photos of this cover without the "Made in Japan" because I have found only one photo in a French magazine that leaves no doubt...
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Looks to be a 10 hole clutch cover of sorts on that bike
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Looks to be a 10 hole clutch cover of sorts on that bike
Kp, this is the picture of the pre-production 2110 "BRIGHTON BIKE"
The clutch cover with only 7 holes...
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WOW, Gerard!!
You are opening Aladins cave?
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My friend from France, you never cease to amaze us. I hope the readers of this site appreciate how much you bring to the sandcast forum
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Steve ;) Can you share all the photos of this cover without the "Made in Japan" because I have found only one photo in a French magazine that leaves no doubt...
Gerard, give me some time and keep reminding me, and i will go through all my magazines and brochures (around 50 in all) and find the pics of late p-p bikes with the unstamped points cover.
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Early German diecast in a 12.000km road test.
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Early German diecast in a 12.000km road test.
Uli, very interesting pic of early die cast which appears NOT to have stamped "MIJ" points cover...?
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Steve ;) Can you share all the photos of this cover without the "Made in Japan" because I have found only one photo in a French magazine that leaves no doubt...
ok. Gerard, i seem to think i have pics better/different than this, will keep searching. perhaps the picture i post is same as yours in French magazine... pictures i post, appears with some certainty, 2110 does not have a "MIJ" stamped points cover.
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fwiw, another pic of 2110. you will note in the color picture of mechanic, is the same man in the black & white picture shown on the April 1969 MOTORCYCLE SPORT magazine. Chris R might have some interesting comments on this man.
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hmm. actually, i think the pics i posted are the only pics i have of 2110's points cover. i have some period pics of 2113, but none are good enough to conclude with any certainty that the cover on 2113 has an unstamped "MIJ" points cover. i will keep looking.
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Steve ;) Can you share all the photos of this cover without the "Made in Japan" because I have found only one photo in a French magazine that leaves no doubt...
Gerard, just for the fun of it, could you post a picture of the entire page of that magazine and if the cover shows 2110, then could you post a full picture of cover? Thank you!
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fwiw, here is picture of clutch coder from 2113, "7-hole." oops. looks like i just posted same pic as Gerard posted earlier.... my apologies!
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and, fwiw, pic of 2110 during time of Brighton show
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fwiw, here is a slightly enlarged picture of 2110 as pictured in April 1969 British magazine "Motorcycle Sport." and a close up of the points and clutch covers. Does anyone believe stamping "MIJ" is present on any pictures i have posted?
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fwiw, here is picture of clutch coder from 2113, "7-hole." oops. looks like i just posted same pic as Gerard posted earlier.... my apologies!
My friend from Colorado, you never cease to amaze us. I hope the readers of this site appreciate how much you bring to the sandcast forum ;)
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Early German diecast in a 12.000km road test.
Uli, very interesting pic of early die cast which appears NOT to have stamped "MIJ" points cover...?
Yes.
But that’s confusing, isn’t it?
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Looks like we all have a photo of that cover. You have to forgive me as I'm getting old and forgetful. Here's a photo of the restored 2113 showing the points cover in question. If you deconstruct this photo using photoshop, you will probably see a made in japan imprint on the cover but given this could have been changed, it could not be considered proof of anything as far as 2113 is concerned
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Looks like we all have a photo of that cover. You have to forgive me as I'm getting old and forgetful. Here's a photo of the restored 2113 showing the points cover in question. If you deconstruct this photo using photoshop, you will probably see a made in japan imprint on the cover but given this could have been changed, it could not be considered proof of anything as far as 2113 is concerned
Vic told me 2113 was missing it's points cover when he bought the bike from Kevin Dodge, and he fitted a nos "MIJ" cover. and all the pics Kevin Dodge sent me in 2006 when he discovered 2113, none of those pics show a points cover. so, it is probably safe to say the points cover that came with 2113 from the factory was lost.
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Early German diecast in a 12.000km road test.
Uli, very interesting pic of early die cast which appears NOT to have stamped "MIJ" points cover...?
Yes.
But that’s confusing, isn’t it?
Thanks for saying that Uli, i was so busy looking for pics of points covers on late p-p bikes. Yes, indeed confusing!
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6frjv75muacf0a/Proto%20Start%20%281%29.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6frjv75muacf0a/Proto%20Start%20%281%29.MOV?dl=0)
does this link open when you click on it?
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Early parts book 4-1969 shows cover without, later K0-K2 book with MIJ
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6frjv75muacf0a/Proto%20Start%20%281%29.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6frjv75muacf0a/Proto%20Start%20%281%29.MOV?dl=0)
does this link open when you click on it?
Yes, I see a vid.
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6frjv75muacf0a/Proto%20Start%20%281%29.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6frjv75muacf0a/Proto%20Start%20%281%29.MOV?dl=0)
does this link open when you click on it?
Yes, I see a vid.
cool. it's 2113.
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Early parts book 4-1969 shows cover without, later K0-K2 book with MIJ
Uli, thanks for posting that, i can't remember if it's been posted before and it is a little alarming for me to know that i've seen these pages in the different parts books and don't remember what i have seen... age 66 i guess....... Anyway, thanks again Uli for posting these pages from the parts books.
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I had already posted it to defend my arguments at the time of the new topic "Point cover no stamped" Made in Japan "on the first series Sandcasts?" But it's nice that Uli mentioned it again... ;)
Thanks you all for help in finding the truth...
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,908.0.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,908.0.html)
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2110 was also missing its original points cover when "found" back in the 1980's. Hopefully the new owner will try to get it "right"; time will tell!
Chris R.
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I had already posted it to defend my arguments at the time of the new topic "Point cover no stamped" Made in Japan "on the first series Sandcasts?" But it's nice that Uli mentioned it again... ;)
Thanks you all for help in finding the truth...
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,908.0.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,908.0.html)
Gerard, all i can say is "YOU ROCK!" Thank you for sharing these wild wonderful findings with us, i am glad you are loyal to SOOC.
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Steve, Here are the pictures from the March 1969 review of the unmarked cover MIJ...
You will notice on the third picture that the alternator cover is slightly rubbed below...
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Hello Gerard, What a wonderful magazine! Thank you for posting What is the name of the magazine, the month and the year? Or, a a volume number and issue number ? i want to search on ebay for this magazine! i love literature.
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What do you think of this photo of 2110 ??? ??? I do not see MIJ on the points cover....
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No made in Japan on this cover either ;D
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Honda-CB750-SOHC-Points-Cover/232479842039?hash=item3620e0def7:g:LMkAAOSw791ZsKuW (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Honda-CB750-SOHC-Points-Cover/232479842039?hash=item3620e0def7:g:LMkAAOSw791ZsKuW)
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Can anyone believe this Ronnie is trying to sell not just this piece of junk, but 3 others just like it ::)
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What do you think of this photo of 2110 ??? ??? I do not see MIJ on the points cover....
i agree with your observation, Gerard.
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No made in Japan on this cover either ;D
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Honda-CB750-SOHC-Points-Cover/232479842039?hash=item3620e0def7:g:LMkAAOSw791ZsKuW (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Honda-CB750-SOHC-Points-Cover/232479842039?hash=item3620e0def7:g:LMkAAOSw791ZsKuW)
yeah, right! it got scratched off....... partially..........
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Steve, to answer your request :) here is the French magazine from which are extracted the photos with the blue background... but it is very difficult to find, the cover of mine is in a sorry state...
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Steve, to answer your request :) here is the French magazine from which are extracted the photos with the blue background... but it is very difficult to find, the cover of mine is in a sorry state...
Thank you Gerard, maybe i can find one some day!!!!!!!!!
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well Gerard, this one is, i believe, issue #11, and if i am reading your magazine is #9.....? May? Mai? 1969. there has to be one available, i'll take a look on French ebay and see what happens........
https://www.ebay.com/itm/17-Revue-Les-Motards-n-11-BMW-R69S-MUNCH-Agostini-Salo-moto-USINE-1969/323273112228?hash=item4b44943aa4:g:PDwAAOSwYhdbCIHZ (https://www.ebay.com/itm/17-Revue-Les-Motards-n-11-BMW-R69S-MUNCH-Agostini-Salo-moto-USINE-1969/323273112228?hash=item4b44943aa4:g:PDwAAOSwYhdbCIHZ)
i just visited ebay France, and got issue #7, it has 4 pages on CB750 and 6 pages on Mammuth - https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LES-MOTARDS-N-7-MUNCH-MAMMUT-TTS-HONDA-CB-750-FOUR-TERROT-350-HD-APPIETTO-1969/372322227064?hash=item56b0225378:g:uVgAAOSwHnFVgUi8 (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LES-MOTARDS-N-7-MUNCH-MAMMUT-TTS-HONDA-CB-750-FOUR-TERROT-350-HD-APPIETTO-1969/372322227064?hash=item56b0225378:g:uVgAAOSwHnFVgUi8)
should be interesting, as it has a write up on the Munch Mammuth -and- the Honda Four!
i have put issue #9 in my search, i am sure i will find one, may take time!
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Yes, the n°7 I have it and it is interesting, but it's the prototype not the pre-production.
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Yes, the n°7 I have it and it is interesting, but it's the prototype not the pre-production.
Je collectionne tout ce qui a été réalisé en sandcast.
Avez-vous tous ces magazines Motard?
Je viens de découvrir un nouveau traducteur. Si facile!
# 7 a une histoire sur la première guerre mondiale?
Maintenant je voudrais pouvoir lire le français!
Mais vous devez répondre en anglais, s'il vous plaît!
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Je viens de découvrir un nouveau traducteur. Si facile!
You could not find out before ? ;D ;D :D
Here are some french magazines with tests of the CB750
All the magazines date from 1969 and they are safe values :
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTOCYCLISME-Numero-1-Fevrier-1969/163079600530?hash=item25f84d3992:g:HSoAAOSwurZZJCq~ (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTOCYCLISME-Numero-1-Fevrier-1969/163079600530?hash=item25f84d3992:g:HSoAAOSwurZZJCq~)
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTOCYCLISME-1969-N-7-HONDA-CB-450-750-GUZZI-RECORDS-TT-CHAMOIS-MAICO/252785189312?hash=item3adb2be1c0:g:MJQAAOSwr~lYr~wG (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTOCYCLISME-1969-N-7-HONDA-CB-450-750-GUZZI-RECORDS-TT-CHAMOIS-MAICO/252785189312?hash=item3adb2be1c0:g:MJQAAOSwr~lYr~wG)
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Moto-Cyclisme-N-10-Annee-1-15-novembre-1969-Special-Honda-750/163079600546?hash=item25f84d39a2:g:TV4AAOSwLsBZUYOw (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Moto-Cyclisme-N-10-Annee-1-15-novembre-1969-Special-Honda-750/163079600546?hash=item25f84d39a2:g:TV4AAOSwLsBZUYOw)
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTO-REVUE-1942-HONDA-CB-750-Four-MOTOBECANE-D75-BENELLI-650-DRESDA-TRITON-1969/132656098981?hash=item1ee2eb6ea5:g:VoIAAOSwiDpa-JD0 (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTO-REVUE-1942-HONDA-CB-750-Four-MOTOBECANE-D75-BENELLI-650-DRESDA-TRITON-1969/132656098981?hash=item1ee2eb6ea5:g:VoIAAOSwiDpa-JD0)
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTO-REVUE-1924-HONDA-CB-750-Four-KAWASAKI-350-A7-SAAB-LITO-Rickman-Metisse-1969/362346993537?hash=item545d905781:g:tggAAOSwNhpa81Ko (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTO-REVUE-1924-HONDA-CB-750-Four-KAWASAKI-350-A7-SAAB-LITO-Rickman-Metisse-1969/362346993537?hash=item545d905781:g:tggAAOSwNhpa81Ko)
Here is a magazine with the CB750 No. 61 which won the 24 hours of endurance of the Bol D'or in September 69 :
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTO-REVUE-1947-BOL-d-OR-1969-HONDA-CB-750-Four-GUZZI-V7-KAWASAKI-250-1969/132656128497?hash=item1ee2ebe1f1:g:vJoAAOSwNxda81bp (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MOTO-REVUE-1947-BOL-d-OR-1969-HONDA-CB-750-Four-GUZZI-V7-KAWASAKI-250-1969/132656128497?hash=item1ee2ebe1f1:g:vJoAAOSwNxda81bp)
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Gerard, thank you for the referrals! i have purchased one and will look the others over more carefully when i have time!
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Gerard, i just bought this magazine. Are you familiar with this magazine? the bike is a LH horn with a thin lip alternator cover. and a special headlight lens.
Gerard, je viens d'acheter ce magazine. Connaissez-vous ce magazine? le vélo est un klaxon gauche avec un couvercle d'alternateur à lèvre mince. et une lentille de phare spéciale.
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Yes, I have it but 9 pages, the best of all is this one with its 30 pages
on the 750... This seller also has the n°1 Motorcyclisme if you want to save shipping costs...
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Moto-Cyclisme-N-10-Annee-1-15-novembre-1969-Special-Honda-750/163079600546?hash=item25f84d39a2:g:TV4AAOSwLsBZUYOw (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Moto-Cyclisme-N-10-Annee-1-15-novembre-1969-Special-Honda-750/163079600546?hash=item25f84d39a2:g:TV4AAOSwLsBZUYOw)
And it is in this one that they speak of the typically French master cylinder with the porthole for the level of brake fluid abandoned because of the leaks...
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Yes, I have it but 9 pages, the best of all is this one with its 30 pages
on the 750... This seller also has the n°1 Motorcyclisme if you want to save shipping costs...
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Moto-Cyclisme-N-10-Annee-1-15-novembre-1969-Special-Honda-750/163079600546?hash=item25f84d39a2:g:TV4AAOSwLsBZUYOw (https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Moto-Cyclisme-N-10-Annee-1-15-novembre-1969-Special-Honda-750/163079600546?hash=item25f84d39a2:g:TV4AAOSwLsBZUYOw)
And it is in this one that they speak of the typically French master cylinder with the porthole for the level of brake fluid abandoned because of the leaks...
Gerard, this is very interesting and amazing factory information (that i know you have shared before) but is always good to see gain, it seems some of these interesting things are a bit shocking to the senses, because they are so far apart from our ideas of what we think we know about these early CB750's, so it takes a bit of time (at least for me) to fully drink in the meaning or significance or what have you of the information we are seeing. i wonder if the reservoir with sight glass was mentioned in non-French Service Bulletins? i have every service bulletin for the American market, and no mention of this unusual and special reservoir... Was this reservoir only for French market? or for the European market? Many questions with only our suppositions..... or our guesses.... Have you ever seen one of these reservoirs with sight glass?
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The magazine was bought... is it you Steve?
Without much possibility of being wrong, I would say that it was designed by Honda only for the French market... And luckily that one of my friends Patrick in France (aureliaB20 on the forum) discovered by chance this famous fact sheet because otherwise we could never have explained it...
I have never seen one, because in my opinion they never crossed the door of the storage shed of the importer "Honda France".
If you want, I can have you translate word for word the text of the Service bulletin n° 37 in English...
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The magazine was bought... is it you Steve?
Without much possibility of being wrong, I would say that it was designed by Honda only for the French market... And luckily that one of my friends Patrick in France (aureliaB20 on the forum) discovered by chance this famous fact sheet because otherwise we could never have explained it...
I have never seen one, because in my opinion they never crossed the door of the storage shed of the importer "Honda France".
If you want, I can have you translate word for word the text of the Service bulletin n° 37 in English...
Hello Gerard, yes i purchased ! Thank you for your generous offer to translate the Service Bulletin, before i say YES! i am wondering if France received other Service Bulletins that are different than USA?
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The man with the white coat and mustache on the 1969 Motorcycle Mechanics magazine cover and also on the cover of the 1969 Motorcycle Sport was Arthur Carter. He was Honda UK's Service Manager then. The holy grail for me would be a video clip from the BBC TV programme from early 1969 called 'Wheelbase', which featured one of the two p.p bikes and had Lord Denbigh as a guest (He was of course the 1st owner of the gold bike). From my 'research' the bike was, I believe, ridden and presented on the programme by Alf Briggs, who ran Honda UK's Service Dept in Nottingham UK and the two p.p.carbs I have, I have since found came from Alf's estate, when he passed away in his 90's.
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I made a comparison photo between the points cover p-p and the points cover later of the 1970s and the 2000s.... We can already notice a slightly larger diameter, and a greater depth or height because the 1970 covers pass underneath... The color of the anti-vibratory material is also different from the 69.
I replaced the cork gasket with a new gasket because it was broken, and I had to paste it in several times to be able to shoot because the diameter was too small...
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Early German diecast in a 12.000km road test.
Uli ;) It's not a Diecast engine but a Sandcast engine...
The casting spur on a Sandcast engine is always placed or it is surrounded in green, while on a diecast engine the casting spur is at the spot indicated by the red arrow...
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Good eye, Gerard. I will search for that issue and post more pics of that 12.000km test
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With pleasure my German friend... :)