Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => French Sandcasts => Topic started by: 4pots1969 on January 15, 2014, 07:02:46 am
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Here are some numbers of engine Sandcast only listed in France after the official period Sandcast E-1007414 and baptized on this forum "French Sandcasts" They are in series 1014000 and 1017000...
All the engines Sandcast listed below has the clutch covers of the engines Diecast after E-1007414 with 10 holes but with only 9 holes, this anomaly is visible on the last two photos.
The explanation in that is I consider simple, they did not have a cluth cover with 9 holes in the stock...
The demand was very important and they opted for this fast solution because it was necessary to produce and to sell.
This Sandcasts 14000/17000 has were sold in France approximately for the period of March has April 1970.
A photo is joined for every number of engine...
E-1014138/VIN-1014046 ?? (Very strong suspicions that the 1st engine of origin was an engine Sandcast..)
E-1014143/VIN-1014060
E-1014149/VIN-1014014
E-1014170/VIN-1017109 (no matching numbers)
E-1015552
E-1017116/VIN-1016877
E-1017118/VIN-1041129 (no matching numbers)
E-1017135/ no frame
E-1017144/VIN-1003541 (no matching numbers)
E-1017164/VIN-1015880
E-1017180/VIN- ??
E-1017193/VIN-1016884
E-1017196/VIN-1016877
E-1017199/VIN-1016882
E-1017417/VIN-1017272
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VERY, VERY, VERY COOL !!!! MERCI ! THANKS FOR SHARING THESE ! Are these vins the total known to exist ?
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Yes, All this is very real and on their wheels has the exception of Sandcast E-1017135.
I added the numbers VIN.
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If possible it would be very nice to see any available pictures to go with the vin/serial numbers of these "French" sand cast bikes.
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From the way the numbers are grouped, there appears to be two "batches" of these later sandcasts. temporary problems with supply of die cast cases I wonder?
Cheers - Chris R.
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Obviously, we will never know for sure but I would guess these were on the shelf, unnumbered, when the die cast cases became available and were pushed aside. Another possibility would be they were rejected for some reason, sent back to be fixed, and were used when they came back from the foundry or machine shop.
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A thought is maybe they were actually spare parts cases set aside for the replacement parts stock and when the diecasts became the normal supply for replacement cases (which the evidence suggests is what actually occurred) then these were slotted back into the production environment rather than trashed. At VIN17XXX demand would have been at a high and Honda management made a decision to use what they had.
Obviously we will probably never know so anything we write here is speculation.
One thing is for sure and that is these sandcast engine cases exist and were produced by Honda. I did read some BS comment somewhere that the French Sandcasts are fakes or don't count or whatever which I reject totally. They do exist and we have to accept that fact in this group. To think otherwise is just burying ones head in the "SAND" ;D :-*
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Yes, we can suppose two where three possibilities, but how to explain this cover clutch which I am going to call "9/10" which has my opinion does not make very serious for the look... We do not have handlebars anymore from now on, but do not be worried because we are going to put a broom!!
Only for it, one can exclude returns of workshop.
It is very difficult to have informations on these Sandcasts.
I think sincerely that there were some also in other countries, but regrettably they were not listed..
Here is a photo of Sandcast E-1014149 and if you look in detail, she also has this famous cover "9/10".
She has her front fender mud before with double cuts and his exhaust muffler " HM CB750 " gets the same music which bewitched that the "HM300"...
And the best it is because she traveled only 2300 kms or approximately 200 miles for you because she was stored and almost forgotten during 40 long years...
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Here is the second photo
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agreed. the clutch cover is on of the coolest parts on the bike. sort of a "pre-production" die cast part.
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Wow! I saw one of those on eBay a while back and did not buy it because I thought it was a fake. My BAD.
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Over the years I've see a few of these for sale. One was in the UK and I was a bidder but got tossed at the end. I agree it was a piss poor effort by Honda as far as finish goes. I would have thought they could have tidied that part up much better. I suppose cost considerations came int play. There are other examples of less than ideal fixes by the big motorcycle factory over the years
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14149 is a beautiful machine. all original ?
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Yes, she is completely of origin, except tires and the paint which was redone, and she is only 200 miles..
It is I which is made photos because it is Sandcast of a friend.
Gerard
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Another French Sandcasts E-1017196 here are the pictures..
The list goes slowly but surely!!
E-1014138/VIN-1014046 ?? (Very strong suspicions that the 1st engine of origin was an sandcast..)
E-1014143/VIN-1014060
E-1014149/VIN-1014014
E-1014170/VIN-1017109 (no matching numbers)
E-1017118/VIN-1041129 (no matching numbers)
E-1017135/ no frame
E-1017196/VIN-1016877
E-1017199/VIN-1016882
E-1017417/VIN-1017272
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truely amazing gerard, how do you find these machines
pete
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Another French sandcast : 16877 - E17196
A nice bike with some details that are not K0, for sale now in France, asking price 19 500 €, that seems to me a little high !
edit : corrected engine number, thanks 4pots1969, my mistake !
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Another French sandcast : 16877 - E17116
A nice bike with some details that are not K0, for sale now in France, asking price 19 500 €, that seems to me a little high !
How many CB750 K0 (sand/diecast) had been sold 1969/1970 in France .... 200?
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K0 French sales :
543 in 1969
1250 in 1970
total : 1793
Worldwide sales : near 53 000
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Another French sandcast : 16877 - E17116
A nice bike with some details that are not K0, for sale now in France, asking price 19 500 €, that seems to me a little high !
The guy is wrong in his ad "Leboncoin" , it is not yet E-1017116 but E-1017196... Already listed.
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K0 French sales :
543 in 1969
1250 in 1970
total : 1793
Worldwide sales : near 53 000
Yes, 543 Sandcast in 1969 and 1250 K0 Diecast in 1970 for France excluding Sandcast after 7414... I think we should not be far from the 700 !!
I do not know the number of Sandcast for Japan? Who know?
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K0 French sales :
543 in 1969
1250 in 1970
total : 1793
Worldwide sales : near 53 000
Oh, thats quite a lot.
Germany 1969/1970: 503 CB750 but including K1 (!)
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Another French Sandcasts E-1017196 here are the pictures..
The list goes slowly but surely!!
E-1014138/VIN-1014046 ?? (Very strong suspicions that the 1st engine of origin was an sandcast..)
E-1014143/VIN-1014060
E-1014149/VIN-1014014
E-1014170/VIN-1017109 (no matching numbers)
E-1017118/VIN-1041129 (no matching numbers)
E-1017135/ no frame
E-1017196/VIN-1016877
E-1017199/VIN-1016882
E-1017417/VIN-1017272
Gerard, PHENOMENAL !!!! Have you been able to discover any information about the origin of these machines ?
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Another French Sandcasts E-1017196 here are the pictures..
The list goes slowly but surely!!
E-1014138/VIN-1014046 ?? (Very strong suspicions that the 1st engine of origin was an sandcast..)
E-1014143/VIN-1014060
E-1014149/VIN-1014014
E-1014170/VIN-1017109 (no matching numbers)
E-1017118/VIN-1041129 (no matching numbers)
E-1017135/ no frame
E-1017196/VIN-1016877
E-1017199/VIN-1016882
E-1017417/VIN-1017272
Gerard, PHENOMENAL !!!! Have you been able to discover any information about the origin of these machines ?
The origin? the Japan!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, I do not know more ...
But for the quantity I can say without too much wrong ... what could be of the order of 100 more 300 ex more ... even though I know I'll get me the thunder on me !!
Of course we will never have the certainty because it is SANDCAST...
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Gerard, do you know where these bikes wold have come in to France in 1970 ? who was the French distributor or major dealer ?
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Gerard, do you know where these bikes wold have come in to France in 1970 ? who was the French distributor or major dealer ?
The bikes from Japan go to Havre (largest seaport customs clearance) and are then delivered to the Importer JAPAUTO-FRANCE in Paris who distributed them in turn to different Honda dealerships across France.
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Gerard, Japauto never was a Honda importer, he was only a dealer, Honda bikes were imported by Honda France and sold by a large dealership network in France.
First exclusive importer in France was "Ets Psalty" in Paris, in 1961, under the direction of "European Honda Motor Trading Gmbh" established in Hamburg (Germany). Honda France was created in Paris in 1964, Psalty lost partially his exclusivity in 1965, and totally in 1967.
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Thanks for the correction !! ;)
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D'accord avec Patrick
l'importateur a partir de 1967 a eté Honda France a Bagnolet.
Honda Japauto ( Mr Villaseca) était concesionnaire
Benjamin
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Gerard, Japauto never was a Honda importer, he was only a dealer, Honda bikes were imported by Honda France and sold by a large dealership network in France.
First exclusive importer in France was "Ets Psalty" in Paris, in 1961, under the direction of "European Honda Motor Trading Gmbh" established in Hamburg (Germany). Honda France was created in Paris in 1964, Psalty lost partially his exclusivity in 1965, and totally in 1967.
Who is oldest Honda dealer in France ?
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Salut Steve,
je PENSE que
le premier revendeur en France étais Pierre Psalty ( n'existe plus)
le plus vieux revendeur " toujour en activité " est Honda "Werther" situé a NICE cote d'Azur a commencé sont activité en exclusif avec Honda en 1963 et est toujours revendeur Honda..
:)
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Steve, Psalty was the oldest Honda dealer in France, but has ceased its activity today.
And he became Yamaha exclusive during the 80's after a falling out with Honda France ...
I think one of the oldest Honda dealer in France, always in activity, is Japauto in Paris, and Pithioud in Lyon.
edit : benjixt is right, Werther is probably the oldest Honda dealer in France, Japauto and Pithioud started with Honda in 1967 or 1968 ...
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But at first motorcycles were not imported from Japan but imported from Germany...
Here are some advertisements from magazines in the 60s...
Patrick et Benjamin, it's pretty good to participate in conversations... but it must be done all the time and not just to correct an error on my part... And this will be even more interesting !! ;)
Thanks, Gerard
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First exclusive importer in France was "Ets Psalty" in Paris, in 1961, under the direction of "European Honda Motor Trading Gmbh" established in Hamburg (Germany).
Yes Gerard, as I said bikes were imported in France by Psalty via Hamburg in Germany.
Thanks for posting these pictures, maybe you could thank the original poster of these pics, www.zseft-zundapp.com (http://www.zseft-zundapp.com) ;)
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Is it possible to talk to any of the old early dealers or their staff that may have seen or known about these French sandcasts ?
Have any 14xxx-17xxx vin sandcasts been discovered in Germany ?
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Thanks for the link Patrick...
I think they could talk about it today if they had overview in 1969 that the engines were sandcast ... But I think they are passed by without noticing...
To my knowledge no 14xxx and 17xxx would be spent by Germany ... Because if that were true the Germans would have kept them for themselves ... What I can understand !!
Legend has it that these series sandcast 14000 and 17000 were mistakenly arrived in Spain before coming to France, but this story is to be taken very cautiously because it has no real basis ...
There would also sandcast in 12xxx series after Philippe Cadier but I can not say anything because never seen anything ... Maybe he could tell us more on the subject ...
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Steve:
French CB750 were different from german sandcast, so no german bikes. French K0 were specific just for France. There were several versions of CB750 for europian countries with small differences in some parts. So there were about 6-7 sandcasts versions on the world. First sold sandcasts to public came to France in August 69.
Only very first bikes were imported to France via german port. All first Honda bikes for all EU countries were imported through Germany, untill the Benelux EU headoffice was found about beginning of 60´.
That is why, the very first EU sandcast introduction was in February 69 in Holland. Later in France and than in UK.
John
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Steve:
French CB750 were different from german sandcast, so no german bikes. French K0 were specific just for France. There were several versions of CB750 for europian countries with small differences in some parts. So there were about 6-7 sandcasts versions on the world. First sold sandcasts to public came to France in August 69.
Only very first bikes were imported to France via german port. All first Honda bikes for all EU countries were imported through Germany, untill the Benelux EU headoffice was found about beginning of 60´.
That is why, the very first EU sandcast introduction was in February 69 in Holland. Later in France and than in UK.
John
To my knowledge, German / Netherland and French KO´s had the "HMCB750" pipes.
German/Netherland KO´s had the small blinker/tail light, French KO had the big as ROW had.
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I ask not if dealers would know French bikes were sandcast......!
I ask to know if people from those day know firsthand story (who, where, when, how they arrived) of that group of vins.
Do i understand correctly.... ? ? First sandcast (6-7?) to France August 1969.... ? These sandcasts 14xxx - 17×××...?
And in North America, August 1969, the sandcast 74xx...?
7xxx August 69 North America. 14xxx August 1969, France. Do i understand correctly?
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Those were just CB750 then.
And the whole world desperately wanted them.
No idea why they took some old cases for France.
Maybe this was a way to get some extra bikes imported.
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Those were just CB750 then.
And the whole world desperately wanted them.
No idea why they took some old cases for France.
Maybe this was a way to get some extra bikes imported.
I do not think they were for France, it's just chance... They could go to Germany, England, the USA and even just stay home in Japan... The more legitimate they would arriving in England because they had not received...
The "old cases" were merely the emergency solution while Diecast output to respond to the request that has literally exploded !! They had no choice but to dip into reserves "old cases sandcast"...
It was said they had boosted production Sandcast casings in full production Diecast but for me is a crazy idea...
Casting stamps anyway dates correspond to 1969...
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Steve:
I was answering your question: "Have any 14xxx-17xxx vin sandcasts been discovered in Germany ?"
It is not possible, while bikes for France had to be just for France to pass regulation for lighting and so on. So these can´t appear in Germany or other countries, while they have different model of CB750.
Gerard:
same about that 14xxx-17xxx would be for UK. There were just officially imported bikes from frame number 10xxx and especially UK CB750s were different than bikes for another countries. So hard to be possible.
Strange there is so big spread among 14xxx and 17xxx. Hard to beleive, that Honda will make 3000 bikes with snadcast cases, or just to replace random diecast series with sandcast cases. And question is, why Honda would make any special new clutch cover9/10? It has no sence. It costs money and time.
It would be nice to see any really completely original french snadcast CB750, not restored, not modified. I think this could be only proof that Honda did it, not local importer or dealer, or customers.
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This is a very informative and educational topic and I thank our French members for the discussion. The fact that you guys know so much about what was sold and the numbers sold is way ahead of other countries outside the US. In Australia we know dip shit about those early imports. A sandcast is a sandcast regardless what the number stamped on the case says so keep the discussion going. It would be an amazing discovery to find other sandcast engines in other countries. Our good friend Tom Courtney said some years ago that such an engine was "maybe/supposed" to have been sold in Australia. KP
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Steve:
I was answering your question: "Have any 14xxx-17xxx vin sandcasts been discovered in Germany ?"
It is not possible, while bikes for France had to be just for France to pass regulation for lighting and so on. So these can´t appear in Germany or other countries, while they have different model of CB750.
Gerard:
same about that 14xxx-17xxx would be for UK. There were just officially imported bikes from frame number 10xxx and especially UK CB750s were different than bikes for another countries. So hard to be possible.
Strange there is so big spread among 14xxx and 17xxx. Hard to beleive, that Honda will make 3000 bikes with snadcast cases, or just to replace random diecast series with sandcast cases. And question is, why Honda would make any special new clutch cover9/10? It has no sence. It costs money and time.
It would be nice to see any really completely original french snadcast CB750, not restored, not modified. I think this could be only proof that Honda did it, not local importer or dealer, or customers.
John, I know your skepticism for Sandcast after 7414 ....
And I completely respect your opinion ... because no one was prepared to see out of nowhere Sandcast in series 14 and 17... This is the icing on the cake for certain where the grain of sand in the gears for others...
But think that they were made by a dealer and they are not 100% orignale Honda factory does not seem reasonable...
For reference : The sandcast E-1014149 with 1,500 miles is 98% original except for the paint candy, 2 tires and 4 mounting bolts for a front engine housings protects had been mounted by the first owner and the 4 bolts were lost...
On the last picture is fitted with a flat handlebars like Kawa of the time in France, it changes but I think it suits him rather well ...
I took these pictures myself and the advertising for Coke is involuntary!! ;)
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Gerard, ditto what KP said. Thank you for such great posts and pictures. to write the good stuff you write, using a translator, takes persistence, perseverance, and TRUE passion for motorcycles.
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Thank you very much KP & Steve for the nice comments!! ::) ::)
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If we join all those engine numbers for the 14000 and 17000 we have a total of 32 machines that follow for the 14000 and 299 machines that follow for the 17000 series for a total of 331 machines !!
It is quite possible that all the numbers follow in casings Sandcast ... But just a hypothesis ...
E-1014138/VIN-1014046 ??
E-1014143/VIN-1014060
E-1014149/VIN-1014014
E-1014170/VIN-1017109
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E-1017118/VIN-1041129
E-1017135/ -----------
E-1017196/VIN-1016877
E-1017199/VIN-1016882
E-1017417/VIN-1017272
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Steve Swan asks for talks with contemporary staff or dealer.
Dealer is long gone. At the time I had no idea what happened would be history in the future!
But he who rode my SC for check up by authorities is still around.
We are a group who meet every wednesday evening to exchange "lie stories"
But what happened then was apparently just every day honda work!
At least one more of the 5 that came was licensed here in København.
I met it once in the day but never since.
And friend has no recollection of anything but my specific bike.
It's just we were friends then as we are today 47 years later.
He indeed it was he to come and set me up with computer years ago.
Erling.
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Hi Gerard,
thanks for images, I missed these on the beginning.
I would understand, if Honda will use sandcast cases which were left in Honda stock. But I´m still wondering while Honda will produce another clutch case 9/10.
Your theory of 300 bikes produced in begiining of 14xxx and beginning of 17xxx seems to be most reasonable.
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Hi Gerard,
thanks for images, I missed these on the beginning.
I would understand, if Honda will use sandcast cases which were left in Honda stock. But I´m still wondering while Honda will produce another clutch case 9/10.
Your theory of 300 bikes produced in begiining of 14xxx and beginning of 17xxx seems to be most reasonable.
Hi John,
Why you say "seems to be most reasonable"??
Nobody ever talked about precise amount for "Sandcast French" period after it seems to me ... Anyway not me ...
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Another French Sandcasts E-1017196 here are the pictures..
The list goes slowly but surely!!
E-1014138/VIN-1014046 ?? (Very strong suspicions that the 1st engine of origin was an sandcast..)
E-1014143/VIN-1014060
E-1014149/VIN-1014014
E-1014170/VIN-1017109 (no matching numbers)
E-1017118/VIN-1041129 (no matching numbers)
E-1017135/ no frame
E-1017196/VIN-1016877
E-1017199/VIN-1016882
E-1017417/VIN-1017272
i'm looking at your list again, very interesting.
do you know or have you met any of the owners of these vins ?
if i understand correctly, you have not seen any of these machines ?
are these machines all in France ?
would it be possible for you to make contact with any of the owners to see if these machines have wrinkle tanks and 41xxx is made of sandcast cases ?
Gerard, are the 41,129 cases in frame 17118 sandcast ?
the reason i am asking, it would be wonderful if you could see wrinkle tanks on a the 17xxx and 16xxx vins of better yet wrinkle taks on all the vins
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Steve, E-1017118 and #1041129 are my numbers from my "bike"
I bought this frame # 1041129 E-17118 with the engine that was with
The guy who sold me told me it was not the original engine, but that I told him I already knew...
So that I end up with a sandcast engine with a frame that does not match the original.
And I know it's not ideal...but it is better than the opposite in my opinion...
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Gerard, is it possible for you to see some of these other French sandcasts ?
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Gerard, is it possible for you to see some of these other French sandcasts ?
Steve,
Unfortunately, I have nothing more about the French Sandcasts because most of the time such information and such pictures were recovered with great difficulty due to the reluctance of some owners to participate ... I do not understand? Maybe the mistrust?...
For E-14149 I took these photos because I had to buy him following an announcement but the owner was very nervous and very indecisive and he gave up the sale, I can understand ...
I will post as soon as I have more information.
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Gerard, good luck, i hope you can see some of them someday. i believe we will learn some interesting and valuable information from these machines.
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I was with my friend Franck in 2013 when he bought such a 750, sandcast engine #1 017 417, and I can say that the tank was not wrinkled !
I don't remind the VIN number of that bike, but it seems to me that it was not 1 017 272 as listed above, I can ask him a picture and others pictures if you are interested by some details :)
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Thanks, Patrick ! very interesting !
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Some pics of this bike I already had in my PC :
(http://imageshack.us/a/img543/8163/cb750k017xxx01.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/1867/oYRZYA.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img809/9553/cb750k017xxx03.jpg)
That CB750 was sold new in Lyon (France) by Pithioud, and customized by its owner with Melber rims and oil thermometer.
What pictures of details did you want Steve ?
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Wow! Some really interesting details on this bike. Single cut front guard, cream coloured horn, twin disc set, small kick rubber, larger master cylinder for the twin disc setup, paragraph pipes
We would love to see the Frame stamps if possible Thanks for sharing
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Patrick, thank you for sharing pictures.
Yes, many parts are not original as the KP remark.
Even the exhaust apparently... The molding K1 on the tank could also mean that it is not its original gas tank but hey that's just an assumption because we certainly will ever know ...
As against what is very interesting is that we have a confirmation of clutch cover 9/10, specific to these French Sandcasts... I was not able to post the cover photo at the time because the former owner had not sent me ... So it's all very consistent and that's a good thing...
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My advice about these French Sandcasts is that Honda had big problems with diecast production delay following the incredible success of the CB750, and so decided to produce some sandcast engines. Decision to sell these bikes only in one country is understandable as it's easier to inform the after-sale services of one country. Why Honda has chosen France for these bikes will remain a mistery !
But I think that all other parts of these bikes were the same that the diecast machines produced at this time, as single cut front guard, unwrinkled tanks and so on.
KP : cream coloured horn were specific to the French market, all Hondas of the era had the same horn in France !
I contact my friend and sak him for pictures of VIN number and details :)
I'll post them here in low-res, it would be possible to send them by email in hi-res if interested.
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Yes, this is a very good analysis of your part of a single country for the information of Honda dealers in these very very late Sandcast.
They arrived in France in my opinion is because random demand...
But Honda France has it been informed by Honda Japan?? Very sincerely I have very big doubts, because I do not think that Honda wanted anyone to know, and it happens to the ears of his rival Kawasaki...
For a manufacturer like Honda this kind of procedure is strongly discouraged and even prohibited and Honda should be in a very very big shit for production to take the risk of putting in the circuit of Sandcast engines during production Diecast... And this is explained by the clutch cover 9/10 of fantasy worthy of amateurism...
They said : it will pass without anyone noticing, and indeed this is what happened, some dealers have noted but it was not beyond the threshold of the door...
The pellet sometimes it pays !! Just my opinion...
I will like you are right in your analysis because it would mean that Honda must Sandcast listed these bikes to transmit in France in Dealer and that may still exist somewhere a list of all these numbers frame and engine ... One can always dream !!
As against the fender singles 17000 series sincerely cut I do not know ... The proprétaire of E-17199 had assured me on the phone that his bike was the reservoir of wrinkles but I've never seen. .. So it is not worth much. As against the 14000 series when they arrived on French soil had double cuts and tank wrinkles, this is a certainty ....
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Excellent observations Gerard.
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I think your observations Patrick are worthy of thought I am jealous of the French getting these sandcast bikes ;) Thanks for the info on the horn Something I had never noticed but yet another variation.
Gerard your comments are also very interesting and a real possibility
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Thanks kp for your comment ! ;)
I would be very surprised if Honda Japan did not informed Honda France about these bikes !
When we see the details and precision of the parts-list edited by Honda Japan, I can't believe that Honda France had not the information as these bikes didn't appear in the parts-list ...
And Honda France probably informed the retailers by an internal note (Service Bulletins) ?
Gerard, why do you think that these bikes could be a problem for Honda France ?
Are diecast engine better than sandcast engine ?
At least I am sure that any mechanics from Honda retailers immediately saw the difference between a sandcast and a diecast, maybe some customers too :D
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Patrick, Thank you for opening this very interesting discussion ...
If Honda France had known, it would not have worried ... Because the most important for them was to sell a maximum of motorcycles ... At the time, I think these details did not matter ...
And if Honda France had been informed in March 1970 by Honda Japan of the existence of these bikes, we would have known long before the 2000s ... and I think that this important information would also have been mentioned in the book of Eric Breton published in 1999, knowing he was helped for much of its documentation by the people who worked at Honda France in 1969 and 1970 ...
It is completely impossible that these people at Honda are not aware if Honda Japan had really given this information in March 1970... What do you think?
Engines diecast better compared to engines sandcast ?? In 1970 no, but now we are aware, surely yes ...
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Really wonderful comments from both of you French gentleman. it's very nice to have your participation and at the same time !
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Really wonderful comments from both of you French gentleman. it's very nice to have your participation and at the same time !
The French touch !! :) :) :)
Many Thanks, Steve ;)
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I don't know if it's the French touch, but a very interesting discussion for sure ! :D
As you say Gérard, the aim of Honda France in 1970 was to deliver a lot of CB750's and answer to the retailers demands.
Sandcast or diecast engine was absolutely not the problem, and what is today for us a very important point was only a detail for the Honda France employees at the moment. So I am not surprised if they forgot the information very quickly and did not mention this fact to Eric Breton ...
I often dream to have the possibility to read Honda France archives from the 60's and 70's, if they are always existing. I am trying to write an article about the beginning of Honda in France, but Psalty's heirs are very hard to find, it seems he had only a daughter who probably married and used his husband's name. I have many documents and information about the difficult relationship between Honda and Psalty between 1961 and 1967, when they lost their "exclusive importer" status, but no precise idea of sales level during these years.
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as much information as you fellows can find, research, all would be very welcome. If French Honda Distributor or Dealer archives exist and you can find them, what a great information coup you will achieve !
Bob Jameson, said USA distributors, dealers, service, sales personnel and retail buyers paid no attention to "9-hole vs 10-hole clutch covers," sandcast vs diecast crank cases." what American distributors, dealers and retail public were demanding were motorcycles. Bob Hansen said the sole focus of the Honda factory officials was to DELIVER as soon as possible units to dealers in the USA.
it's difficult to not believe Honda KNEW the motorcycles they were going to send would be assembled using sandcast cases. i find it more difficult to believe distributors or importers such as Psalty would know the motorcycles were fitted with sandcast cases. What Psalty wanted was motorcycles NOW. i am sure French demand for CB750 motorcycles was very strong. Gerard and Patrick; your passion for these machines reflects this.
Honda Factory KNEW the majority of the market volume was in USA. Honda factory focus was on satisfying USA market demand FIRST. information i am aware of, albeit it 2nd hand, non-USA markets did not have the priority of receiving units over USA markets. case in point, Britain did not get CB750 units until early-mid 1970. i cannot imagine British, French and probably German outcry for importing units was less than strong.
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was there not another French fellow, "Phillipe," who had a French sandcast or knew information about the French sandcasts ? i am certain Phillipe posted here years ago..... in fact, i found his post, i have "bumped up the post he made in 2011.
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i am trying to find the VERY FIRST POST disclosing the existence of French sandcasts, but i cannot find it..... ??? ??? ??? ???
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Steve, Here is the link to the post of philcad750
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.15.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.15.html)
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.30.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.30.html)
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Steve,
Here is the link to one of your post which dates from February 2010, this is the first post on this thorny issue...
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,104.0.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,104.0.html)
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The very first post is no longer there as far as I can see/find. This all began when I was sent a photo of a bike that looked to have a sandcast engine (by who is but a distant memory). There were several photos sent by a member (I cannot remember) but were not enough to confirm the existence of such a bike. I do recall sending an email to a person in France to see if further information could be found. I do remember (I think) Chris Ruston being part of the discussion and it was thought that Chris may be able to arrange a visit to the owner if he was able. This was all pre November 2011 and I can say unequivocally there was a lot of doubt expressed at the time. The only reference we can see is the post on November 3 by philcad750 that sheds some light on this but there was a lot of discussion pre this post.
The "French Sandcast" category had not been begun at this time as there was very little info available Maybe Wayne can restore the gallery photos and original posts from the time. Maybe all this original info is retained in the archives of earlier forum postings. I think it was advanced by Phil and Gerard some time later and their efforts were instrumental in getting some serious discussion started on this topic The rest is more or less what we now have. I think Chris R can shed more light on this question Steve. My memory is not so clear that I can attest to the accuracy of all I've posted here.
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KP, thank you for the clarification ...
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The already highly dubious theory that the missing numbers on groups 14000 and 17000 could chained continuously without any interruption falls into the water with a very big FLOP !! I'm surprised has half, but it is not negative, quite the contrary...because it proves that it was done randomly at least for the 17000 series.
We are starting to see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.....
And those who want to help in the census by providing the numbers 14000 and 17000 that are missing are welcome!! It's good to read other posts but occasionally a small post on your part is good too... ;D ;D ;D ;D
E-14138 <---> E-14143 = 5 (missing)
E-14143 <---> E-14149 = 6 (missing)
E-14149 <---> E-14170 = 21 (missing)
E-17118 <---> E-17135 = 17 (missing)
E-17135 <---> E-17196 = 61 (missing)
E-17196 <---> E-17199 = 2 (missing)
E-17199 <---> E-17417 = 218 (missing)
Diecast engine registered of the serie 14000 among the missing numbers : 0
Diecast engine registered of the serie 17000 among the missing numbers : 3 E-17237 / E-17281 / E-17361
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The already highly dubious theory that the missing numbers on groups 14000 and 17000 could chained continuously without any interruption falls into the water with a very big FLOP !! I'm surprised has half, but it is not negative, quite the contrary...because it proves that it was done randomly at least for the 17000 series.
We start to see just a bit of light at the end of the tunnel...
And those who want to help in the census by providing the numbers 14000 and 17000 that are missing are welcome!! It's good to read other posts but occasionally a small post on your part is good too... ;D ;D ;D ;D
E-14138 <---> E-14143 = 5 (missing)
E-14143 <---> E-14149 = 6 (missing)
E-14149 <---> E-14170 = 21 (missing)
E-17118 <---> E-17135 = 17 (missing)
E-17135 <---> E-17196 = 61 (missing)
E-17196 <---> E-17199 = 3 (missing)
E-17199 <---> E-17417 = 218 (missing)
Diecast engine registered of the serie 14000 among the missing numbers : 0
Diecast engine registered of the serie 14000 among the missing numbers : 3 E-17237 / E-17281 / E-17361
WOW. appears these sandcast cases were fitted randomly and not consecutively. a bit more surprising than if the Evins were consecutive.
possibly this idea has been brought up before, due to the shortage of units for distribution for worldwide sales, the factory decided to use all available parts including left over sandcast cases to fill orders leaving the factory. it's hard for me to believe, a major vehicle manufacturer's assembly build practice would randomly fit cases no longer produced. BUT, here we are ! certainly appears the factory did. there is nothing wrong with a sandcast case vs a diecast case.
E14143 has a casting date of 9/11. To my way of thinking, a 14XXX Evin would have been assembled around late October to mid November and 17xxx Evin assembled around early December.
the French sandcasts, at least to date, are such a few number of machines, it seems kind of unlikely but not improbable a few more units assembled for export built with sandcast cases would make any significant impact to satisfy demand.
Maybe the assembly foreman told the line workers to use up the left over sandcast cases rather than destroy them. that and Honda's efforts to satisfy demand, resulted in building the French sandcasts.
what casting dates are found on other French sandcast Evins ?
the most interesting feature of the actual Evins is the jump or gap between what we recognize as the "last" 14xxx vin and the "first" 17xxx vin.
we may never know......
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Steve, you also write very good things...
The image and the text is for you....;)
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Superb ! The French touch !
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Woowww, interesting new facts about French sandcasts, so these bikes were not produced as batch of several identical machines but randomly ! :o
And Gérard, congratulations for you X-files picture, that's perfectly fit !
Private message for Gérard : happy to see your arrival on the French cb500four.com forum ! ;)
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Probably safe to assume all French sandcast cases have September or earlier casting dates.... ???
Would be interesting to know the latest casting date found on any set of sandcast cases.
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Patrick thank you for the MP,
Yes, I joined this forum because I recognized your avatar ... As I can follow your posts and this will allow me to learn about the CB Four because I saw that there was good topics...
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Another French Sandcast E-1017193 VIN-1016884 discovered in very poor condition...
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Gérard, very exciting when these are found. Any more photographs. Thanks
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Viva la France !
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Always interesting since I own frame 14100 here in Illinois. I believe it to be the third cb750 sold here, I own the first and my friend has the second, he assembled them from the crate. I never had the correct original engine however.
These three bikes are approx. 4,000 numbers each apart.
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Here are two other serial Sandcast engines numbers 1017000...
These two numbers were communicated by the member BearcatF8F2
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Hello,
A late Sandcast (E 1017196) on sale in Belgium.
https://www.2ememain.be/moto/moto/honda/honda-cb750-four-1970-k0-460726226.html (https://www.2ememain.be/moto/moto/honda/honda-cb750-four-1970-k0-460726226.html)
Kind regard
Benjamin
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Wow Wow !! super cool Benjamin ;) :) she is already registered but we did not have the picture of the motor number for proof...
Thanks
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You Can Also see that the engine case are NOT Paint ..
Like all Sandcast deliver New in 69 and 70...
;) ;)
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Here is another Sandcast E-1017180, this picture was communicated to me by Benjixt and I thank him...
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Here the bike in Belgium...
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=277518268&makeModelVariant1.makeId=11000&makeModelVariant1.modelDescription=cb%20750&maxFirstRegistrationDate=1970&maxPowerAsArray=KW&minPowerAsArray=KW&scopeId=MB
I am very interested in that CB750. What do the experts think about the condition?
Is the colour correct for that "Sandcast"?
Regards from Germany, Michael.
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Hi Michael,
Yes... it seems to be correct, but it is not perfect because there are some errors, the Candy Gold could be correct, because this bike has a registration that certainly dates from the month of April 1970 knowing that the first 750 K0's Candy Gold arrived in France during the month of February 1970 ...
And only the French Sandcast series 14000 and 17000 for some had Candy Gold colors...
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I am not experienced in these rare French sandcasts, but I see a few things that look incorrect to me:
• The tank strips (plastic at the bottom of the tank) look like the K1 version.
• The front fender should be a single-cut based on the vin number (I think). My 16xxx diecast has a single cut front fender for example. Perhaps someone can tell us exactly when they dropped the single cut fenders?
• My understanding is that Honda did not release the candy gold color until somewhere around 19xxx. Again, perhaps this is different because it is a "french sandcast"?
It is a beautiful bike though. Worth the money in my opinion!
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To answer your mail Michael, the biggest problem, compared to the photo in the book, is that it no longer has its original exhaust pipes which were HMCB750 (very rare) and there at better, we have HM300 and at worst HM341,
it has kept its clutch cover 9/10 which is good, when we know that 7414 has received the same clutch cover 9/10, which proves that the Honda factory was already short of 9-hole clutch cover in November 69, it's a little crazy ...
The protection grids of the pots are also to change, the face of the speedometer is not good, the price must be able to negotiate a little more than 20,000 € I think, but these French Sandcasts are rarities and it is important to consider in your offer...
A French proverb : It is better to have remorse than regrets !!
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Thank you guys for your replies. I hope to have the chance to visit the bike the next few weeks. Then I will have a look...
It is definitely an interesting bike...
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The very first post is no longer there as far as I can see/find. This all began when I was sent a photo of a bike that looked to have a sandcast engine (by who is but a distant memory). There were several photos sent by a member (I cannot remember) but were not enough to confirm the existence of such a bike. I do recall sending an email to a person in France to see if further information could be found. I do remember (I think) Chris Ruston being part of the discussion and it was thought that Chris may be able to arrange a visit to the owner if he was able. This was all pre November 2011 and I can say unequivocally there was a lot of doubt expressed at the time. The only reference we can see is the post on November 3 by philcad750 that sheds some light on this but there was a lot of discussion pre this post.
The "French Sandcast" category had not been begun at this time as there was very little info available Maybe Wayne can restore the gallery photos and original posts from the time. Maybe all this original info is retained in the archives of earlier forum postings. I think it was advanced by Phil and Gerard some time later and their efforts were instrumental in getting some serious discussion started on this topic The rest is more or less what we now have. I think Chris R can shed more light on this question Steve. My memory is not so clear that I can attest to the accuracy of all I've posted here.
I have never deleted any posts or threads that had valuable information, only ad related posts or spam. Our old Gallery had a vulnerability and was compromised more than once. I had to remove it or our host, StartLogic was going to disable our account as we use shared server space. I went through my archives and did find my backup...and these French Sandcast photos I backed up in 2016. I assume they were added to the gallery at an earlier date.
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The very first post is no longer there as far as I can see/find. This all began when I was sent a photo of a bike that looked to have a sandcast engine (by who is but a distant memory). There were several photos sent by a member (I cannot remember) but were not enough to confirm the existence of such a bike. I do recall sending an email to a person in France to see if further information could be found. I do remember (I think) Chris Ruston being part of the discussion and it was thought that Chris may be able to arrange a visit to the owner if he was able. This was all pre November 2011 and I can say unequivocally there was a lot of doubt expressed at the time. The only reference we can see is the post on November 3 by philcad750 that sheds some light on this but there was a lot of discussion pre this post.
The "French Sandcast" category had not been begun at this time as there was very little info available Maybe Wayne can restore the gallery photos and original posts from the time. Maybe all this original info is retained in the archives of earlier forum postings. I think it was advanced by Phil and Gerard some time later and their efforts were instrumental in getting some serious discussion started on this topic The rest is more or less what we now have. I think Chris R can shed more light on this question Steve. My memory is not so clear that I can attest to the accuracy of all I've posted here.
I have never deleted any posts or threads that had valuable information, only ad related posts or spam. Our old Gallery had a vulnerability and was compromised more than once. I had to remove it or our host, StartLogic was going to disable our account as we use shared server space. I went through my archives and did find my backup...and these French Sandcast photos I backed up in 2016. I assume they were added to the gallery at an earlier date.
Wayne, uda man! Accolades to Gerard for his ever-fascinating thread!