Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => French Sandcasts => Topic started by: 4pots1969 on March 21, 2014, 07:48:40 am
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More and more surprising!! :o :o :o :-[ :-\
I did not think of seeing one day this Cover Clutch "9/10" reserved
for Engines Sandcast after period gone up on an engine Diecast???
The owner is formal: this clutch cover is of origin and was never changed!!
What would be moreover the interest to change a clutch cover 10 holes for
clutch cover "9/10" on an engine planned to receive a Clutch cover 10 holes??
It would be completely absurd!! :o
The Engine number VIN-1014046/E-1014138 (March 10th 1970) corresponds has the period
when Honda drew crankcases Sandcasts from its reserves to feed assembly lines and that
explains these errors and this total confusion..
If it is very real we are in the big nonsense..
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That is amazing to see. Thanks for sharing that anomaly with this group as it really shows anything is possible on an assembly line. :o
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if i am understanding correctly..... :)
so, this is a "9 hole" transitional clutch cover fitted to die cast crank cases ? goes to show there are no "hard and fast rules" to early "k0" production.
would be very curious to know if this die cast crankcase set has 10 holes.... one would expect 10 holes in die cast crank case set.
would be an even more huge anomoly if these die cast cases had 9 holes..... ???
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A couple of things are obvious though. The engine number has been altered. The CB750E is Honda stamping but the remaining numbers have been stamped with other than Honda stamps so any real assessment is not conclusive to these cases. Could be a set of original sandcast cases were fitted and subsequently damaged. The bolts holding the side cover are not original and the case nuts look to have been the subject of tools at some time. Just some observations
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I agree 100% with KP.
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yeah.... i saw the allen screws. i did not look closely at vin font. i thought the vin pad looked like die cast... ? (has a raised ridge around pad periphery.... right ?)
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yes, the last 7 digits are clearly not honda vin font. also looks like there's been someting done to surface of the vin pad so the last 7 digits could be altered. the "CB750E" appears honda factory font; makes me think there was honda font vin, the vin pad surface was disturbed to obscure original vin and then numbers were stamped in the non-honda font. also, the cases appear perfectly smooth, strongly suggesting die cast cases. and there is a raised ridge around pad periphery.
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Yes, it is a very good analysis of the detail!! ;)
I had not noticed that numbers have the end were not of origin Honda and that they had been redone!!
The mystery clears up little... The positive point, it is because it was done well!!
Could we think that this K0 has the exit of assembly lines was in reality Sandcast after E-1007414 (French Sandcasts)??
Afterward the Crankcases Sandcast would have been broken by the chain as many Sandcasts at that time and replaced by Crankcases Diecast with the numbers redoes..
It would explain this clutch cover "9/10" on this engine Diecast but this cover had risen in fact has the origin on an engine
Sandcast after-period?? :-[ :-\
But all this is only suppositions..
When in screws, many K0 had Phillips screws changed by screws Allen..
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the proof of the pudding will be in removing the clutch cover to count the total number of threaded holes in the crank case set. i'm guessing 10 holes.
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My English is bad and I believe that I do not arrive has
to explain to me and has to make me understand..
Yes, I agree and not need to remove the clutch cover.
It is an engine Diecast thus one 10 holes.
I think that before this current engine Diecast, the one who
was the first original engine had to be an engine Sandcast and
it shall explain the clutch cover "9/10" put back on this engine Diecast..
I am going to try to go back up to the preceding owner and maybe
that he can inform me a little more about the first Engine of origin and why
this clutch cover "9/10" gone back up on the Diecast and reserved usually
for the Sandcasts after period... To follow...
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I am very satisfied :) to have opened this topic because, not having seen
the numbers redoes, and it is the proof that the engine was well changed..
My first thought was for a confusion and a haste on assembly lines.
Now I think that we can forget this hypothesis..
It is very good and rather reassuring... 8)
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That VIN and engine # seem to be in the same series as the other group of sandcast engined bikes. I wonder of the owner kept the engine cases ???
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I´m sorry, but I think that all french sandcasts are fake. It is not possible to make 3000 sandy bikes in range of 14k to17k just only for France. It is also nonsence to make special clutch cover in mass production after 7000 units were just made, and than switch back to standard cover. Sorry, but this case has no sence, and Honda was not stupid in 1970.
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Hello CBman,
No problem..Everybody has the right to give its opinion and you are free to think of what you want... 8)
I´m sorry, but I think that all french sandcasts are fake. It is not possible to make 3000 sandy bikes in range of 14k to17k just only for France??.
I think that you did not understand everything but I excuse you because my English is very bad!!
Who said where writes it?? Absolutely nobody!! In any case it is not me..
We speak only about some tens of copies in 20? 30? 50?.. And even can be even more!! But who can say it?
They would have been made in the series 14000 17000 and even 12000 (??) long after period 1007414 to assure the high demand of the beginning of year 1970, but as is used nobody really knows it on the other hand what we know, it is whom they are there and whom they are very real...
Then believe in one in it where then we nor believe not as you it is not the most important.. But it is necessary to make with, simply!!
And they were not specially made for France, not at all. They arrived in France by the purest fate and they would have been very well able to arrive in Germany where in the USA where simply to stay in Japan.. There, they would have been accepted and nobody would have had the idea to dispute these Sandcasts exceptional...
Who can dispute this engine bloc Sandcast E-1017118 over this photo?
If that it is a fake, the counterfeiter is a "Big artist" and I make him one "Standing ovation"!! ;)
Best Regards, Gérard G
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I have to agree with 4pots1969. These sandcast engines exist and could easily have been delivered to other countries.The stampings look to be absolutely genuine as do the engine cases and I think to dispute this is just not reasonable. I can understand the reluctance of some here to dispute the facts but we are a group that needs to seek whatever knowledge we can about the production of the early CB750. My good friend Tom Courtney has some comment on a later than 7414 VIN sandcast engine in Oz and I originally didn't think he was right but having seen the evidence of these French delivered bikes then I have to say there is much we still don't know and anything is possible. My "very weak" theory is that they were spare part (replacement) engine cases that were taken from the inventory and used in the regular production line given the die cast engines were in full use by this time.
Viva la France 8)
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Thank you KP for this support!! ;)
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the vin font is honda font. i suppose someone could have had honda font metal stamps made up. then, to go to the trouble of finding several blank sandcast crank cases to stamp to make several machines up........... ? and then find the distinctive 9 hole transitional covers for these several cases...... ? some of these machines are completely original in appearance with undisturbed patina. i cannot imagine anyone contemporary or in 1970 putting together a SEVERAL fake sandcasts. we have found other details showing the otherwise peerless factory to be capable of some "inconsistency." i've been wrong before, but my bet is these machines are factory original. what we need, IS someone from France who knows the story to step up and tell the story or at least what they know of the story.
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Yes, who would have had the idéa to make fakes Sandcasts in 1970?
He would have needed to be maybe called Nostradamus..
Already.. Very few people knew that Sandcast had been made and there
was enough backward movement has this time to plan it..That do not hold the road!!
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as collectors and archeologists say..... some provenance (provenir) would be hlepful to clarify/verify/substantiate the story of how French sandcasts came to exist.
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Hi evrybody,
i'm sandcast enthusiast and owner ( VIN 2749) .i'm from France and i know the existence of this "French Sandcast " i'm 32 year but my Father got a brand new cb750 in March 1970 with sandcast case . vin 10160XX. with the " famous" clutch cover 9/10 holes.
i try to know more about this strange bike but difficult!!!
this sandcast are well know by the french
i'm think exactly like KP: that cases was spare parts and used in the regular production ( for France) ( maybe because the volume of sale in France was not enormous) and Honda France wasn't a prior Customer!! Honda japan decided to fix this "old case".....
It will stay a sandcast mistery
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OK, lets look at it from another angle.
1. Many of these french sandcasts have not originaly stamped numbers on the crankcase, so these can´t be from production line.
2. My question is: How many units were made, and in what range ? We can see the range is from 14k to 17k, which no doubt can´t be real on the standard production line. OK, what is next explanation ? On second view there can be 200 units at beginning of 14k range and 400 units at beginning of 17k range. Also strange. because it has no sence why to made 200 units and another 400 units after 3000 bikes vere just made.
3. Why would Honda made also just only few houndreds units of special clutch covers, when mass production was just running ? Also no sence.
4. You mentioned gthat maybe Sandcasts cases vere used because thehre was lack of diecast. It is also nonsence, because in those days there vere produced SEVERAL houndreds of K0 per day. So it has no sence to make 200 houndreds K0 with sandcast engine.
OK, I want to be seen that I´m only critisizing, so here is my view on this matter. Don´t forget that every bike was tested on the end of production line. So if benjixt is telling their sandcast has it from new, so I think there could be problem during test run, or at dealership that needed the crankcase replacement. Honda had produced sandcast cases as spare parts, so somebody could use it also after 1970. What about the clutch , I think during repair, the mechanic weld original cover to fill the 10th tread hole.
So, OK somebody could bought the bike after 7k with sandcast cases, but I don´t believe there were produced sandcasts on production line. What about other french sandcast? Many of them are not stamped from Honda production. I think somebody want to make more valueable bike, or maybe these bikes were repaired by same dealer/distributor.
True is, taht some strange things could happen, but Honda on the beginning of 1970 was not so stupid to make mistake in mass production line, so sorry, but I don´t accept that these bikes were from mass production line.
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Hi -
I think we are not talking about the most important objective evidence in the pictures posted of the E-1017118 as the engine casting date is 8-11, which clearly depicts the date the engine was sandcast. The E number sequence doesn't match the two engine posted in our VIN directory as the two engine numbers cast on August 11th are in the 57XX-59Xx range.
I own two Sandcasts one with a 6-13 cast date and one with a 6-28 cast date both of my motors have the E1 stamped, but are missing the third casting charactor shown in the picture which is the "T".
Can someone with an engine cast at a later date than June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....?
I believe the motor shown was cast on August 11, 1969 and then had the VIN number stamped at a later date based on the evidence in the picture.
Just my thoughts,
DW
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By the way August 11, 1969 was a Monday, maybe that explains everything :D :D
Maybe they messed up the stamps.
DW ;D
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Hello,
I see one 9 : 9-11 for September 11th? Was a Thursday?
and E-1 and T they mean what?
Thanks Gérard
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some major assumptions are being made with virtually no supporting evidence.
1. the only evidence we have that these vins are Honda font is the actual font it's self.
2. the font appears same as Honda oem font. as many 750 vins as i've seen, in the flesh and in pictures, i cannot and will not argue the font is not Honda oem. based on the font, i have to assume, at the very least, 'someone' used honda font to stamp some cases.
3. it is only natural to assume the stampings were made by someone who had access to oem stamps. the questions to be asked are: A. WHO had access to these stamps and B. WHERE did these stampings occur ? C. WHEN did these stampings occur ? D. WHY were sandcast cases stamped with 14xxx through 17xxx vin range ?
4. the cases are 9 hole sandcast cases.
No one YET has provided evidence of who stamped the font or where, when or why the stamping took place. WHY these cases were used and WHO authorized the use of these case, we don't know. (assuming use of the cases was authorized.)
"benjixt" notes his father bought a "k0" complete machine w/ sandcast cases new in 1970. "benjixt" it would be nice to see some original paperwork showing chain of ownership from Honda, to dealer, to retail owner; such as a manufacturer's statement of origin and copy of original title. (and, what is your name ?!? i wrote a couple years ago asking members who post to share their names, as a courtesy to us all so we can get to know each other better !)
i can only ASSUME,
1. the sandcast cases were stamped at the factory.
2. the cases were stamped by a dealer or dealers after the cases left the factory.
3. a private party got oem stamps and stamped up several blank sandcast cases.
any of these 3 scenarios raises a number of questions.
the bottom line is WE DON'T DON'T KNOW. with no FIRST HAND INFORMATION or more objective evidence, only assumptions can be made.
"CBman" you ask good questions. are you saying not all "French sandcasts" have stamped sandcast cases ? How do you know this? some cases are blank ? You are saying "many" French sandcasts ? How many ? i thought less than 10 of these "French sandcasts" exist. i do not know. does someone know how many "French sandcasts have been identified to date ? (and "CBman" what is your name ???)
i'm not trying to offend anyone ! but i find not knowing who i am talking to annoying and discourteous to the group.
So: again. the cases were either: 1. fitted at the factory, 2. fitted at the dealer or 3. stamped by private hands.
Addressing 1, 2, & 3 above:
1. beginning at 14xxx, why use sandcast cases on the factory assembly line in this vin range? make no sense. doesn't seem like anything logical for honda to do. but we know other parts we've seen on sandcasts are the same yet different parts. we have no explanation. i won't theorize why, in vin range 14xxx through 17xxx, sandcast cases would have been used at the factory and not die cast cases. without hard conclusive evidence, i don't see any proof of 100% confidence a few sandcast cases were NOT fitted at the factory in the vin range of 14xxx -17xxx.
2. in the scenario of blank cases being fitted by the dealer (or dealers) after bikes left the factory, in the case of some defect or case damage a replacement case would have been used. and a dealer or dealers wold have oem vin stamps.
3. another observation; the alignment on all these "French sandcast" vins is perfect or nearly perfect. so it seems unlikely a dealer or a private party would have stamped these vins.
4. perfect alignment and oem font would be reasonable to suggest vins stamped at factory and not after cases left factory.
only someone who was present when these vins were stamped and these engines were fitted could give the answer. this is another reason any official or otherwise verified provenance could help shed some light on the "French sandcast mystery."
myself, i choose to believe the "French sandcasts" are authentic for the following reasons.
1. i believe the font is oem Honda.
2. some of the machines have undisturbed patina which "appears" to date back to original assembly from when machine was new.
3. "benjixt" says he knows the bike's provenance from when the bike was purchased new.
4. i can't imagine any motive in 1970 to put several of these machines together as a ruse or deception.
5. the only way i can be dissuaded from believing these machines are authentic is to prove at least #1 & #3 not true.
The "French sandcasts" are a mystery. we all have our opinions. good entertainment.
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I would like to add my thought's to this debate.We all know that Honda changed to Dye cast cases at a certain time / date simply because of costs and time involved in sandcast moulding, They could not keep up Production with the World Wide demand for the 750 which they did not really anticipate. The changes to the first bikes 0-300 and 300 -1000 and 1000-2000 and so on shows that they were in a hurried state with development / production ,hence all the confusion we have with the early Vin's. So in saying that on the day they changed production to dyecast cases there must have been a overlap in production of sand castcast cases,as to cover production while they perfected the dyecast system. This overlap could have been used later on simply to keep up production as the demand grew and use all the old stock cases .
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and i've heard distribution of cb750's to France was delayed or behind schedule...... ?
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I lived in Japan for several years in the early 70's through mid 80's while there i tried to purchase some of the Honda specialty tools to work on my Honda motorcycles. The only way i could get them was to have my Japanese friend order them through his dealership. Private parties were not allowed to purchase Honda specialty tools. One of the items i tried to buy was the dye set used to stamp the vin /serial numbers. Honda would not even let dealerships purchase them. If you look at other re-stamped replacement cases it is pretty easy to tell they are not the same as the Honda font. If i remember correctly there was a CB750 at the mid Ohio get together in 2009 that had replacement cases with the vin stamped on the lower right side of the cylinders. Marty K.
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Thanks Marty, for sharing your first hand experience attempting to purchase vin stamps.
it makes sense Honda would not release vin stamps and does reinforce the idea only the factory issued and stamped vins at the time of vehicle manufacture.
it also makes sense the factory would record these vins and keep records what countries, what distributors vins were released to. and i would imagine, distributors kept records what vins were shipped to what dealers and dealers kept records what vins were sold to what retail buyer.
factory/distributors/dealers keeping/tracking/managing vin records makes sense for a number of reasons... 1. sales, 2. warranty, 3. recall, 4. service and 5. legal
Honda (or any vehicle manufacturer) not releasing vin stamps would be be a way to not only manage/track accuracy of distribution and record activity of units, but also contain liability for legal risks such as theft, malfunction, defects. i can understand Honda would not want ANYONE other than the factory assigning or altering vins. (a few years back, an altered Evin in factory font was discovered. perhaps KP has this picture of this vin, as i know he collects pictures of vin stampings.)
the above logic would seem to lend credibility the "French sandcast" vins are factory authentic. personally, i've always assumed the factory issued these "French sandcasts" vins.
we only have ONE "French sandcast" vin in the VIN Directory. it would be really nice if we had EVERY known frame/engine "French sandcast" vin.
Can our French brothers put together as complete a record as possible of "French sandcast" frame/engine vins know to exist ???
ps - machine at 2009 meet; Steve Frampton of Canada had the 325 framed bike with a set of replacement cases also stamped with 325 on the right side of cylinders. the frame font was factory; the font on cylinders was not.
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a little off topic, but Chris R recorded in the VIN Directory, the factory altered vin i was thinking of.... "926/952 Eng# factory altered from 951"
i KNOW we had pictures of this factory altered vin and i am CERTAIN there is a discussion of this vin buried SOMEWHERE in this DB..... (i looked for the thread, but cannot find it.)
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FOUND IT !!!! factory altered vin - http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=342.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=342.0)
if you enlarge the photos, the alterations are the same. an "X" over altered number and a diamond with a cross inside under the altered number. and the 'replacement' number on top of altered number. i suggest more proof why Marty (or anyone) could not buy vin stamps from Honda.
i would need hard factual evidence to be convinced "French sandcast" vins are not factory authentic.
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Can anyone answer my question on the difference in the cast characters of the rear stampings in the picture that shows E-1017118?
Both my engines only have the two digit date and the E1 on the top case but the "T" was not on the earlier cases, so when did it start to appear?
Can someone with an engine cast at a later date than June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....?
Thanks,
Duane
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Great discussion :o
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Hello, ;)
I have the conviction that these modifications of figures made on crankcases were made by the factory Honda and that they are authentic.
As I have the conviction that this engine Sandcast after period is as well authentic, and no matter as they have aterri in France, In North Pole, where even on the Moon... To push away them would be a total nonsense!!
I think so very sincerely that if this Sandcasts was of origin Japan or the USA this post would not exist, where then not like that..
There would be certainly fewer reluctances on behalf of certain menbers...It is a real pity!! :'(
In France we say that it is a stone thrown in some quiet water..
And I am persuaded that there is others somewhere else, and the fact of lifting this "problem" on this very good forum will allow us to locate them soon because I think that stormy debate is going to return more attentive people..
Certain advanced suppositions not CBman is extravagant and they give me to smile.. :) :) But it is already that!!
I do not understand everything and I cannot regrettably answer has all the answers due to the lack of speed because I have big gaps with the English language and I regret!!
Sincere thanks has all for the interest which you carry has this very fascinating subject!! ;) ;)
Gérard.G
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Steve i also know for fact that Honda did/does track where there vin/vehicles go. While in Japan i bought a U.S. model CB750 K0 from a U.S. service man. When i went to register and plate the bike the Japanese inspector looked up the vin in their directory and said U.S. export, ok. Marty K.
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Gerard, i'm glad you contribute and i hope you continue to contribute. in my thinking, there is no reason to doubt the French sandcasts are authentic. we just don't have enough information to answer so many questions we have about how interesting these French sandcasts are. looking at another thread on the French sandcasts, i see we have several known to exist. it would be nice to have a section in the VIN Directory to list all known French sandcast Fvins and Evins.
And, Marty, thanks again for your reply. it only makes completes sense factory would keep vin records. if we had factory records, we would know the provenance of the French sandcasts.
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Sorry Guys, my name is John.
Steve, I didn´t write there are unstamped cases, but only that many engines (by my opinion) are not originaly stamped from Honda factory production. I respect you as a CB750 expert, but lets look at the VINs:
1. E-1014143 does look like Honda font, but from detail it is not. Just compere it with French Sandcast E-1017118, these fonts are different in detail.
2. E-1017199 number 9 is not Honda font. Also the surface was just grinded by someone, so hardly could be original.
3. E-1014170 I know the engine numbers were not in perfect line, but this one is really stamped very badly. Please note, that Honda at
begining of 1970 was able to stamp the engine numbers nearly perfectly (not so chaotic like on first Sandcasts), so these VINs are strange for me.
4. 4 of 8 engines have not correct frame, or were replaced.
and for 5. Still nobody has theory for special clutch cover......... Why to make special clutch cover for few units of "french sandcasts" ???
It is everybody decision if to believe or not. But for me there is too much obscurity, my sorry to owners.
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Hi John
Good arguments but I cannot agree. The 9 on all engines is same as Honda and same for both. As for lining up etc. Notice the distance between the C and B in CB. This one area where engines can and do differ I find nothing unusual there The lining up of fonts can vary and doesn't surprise me. When the diecast engines were made they had a border around the VIN pad thus making stamping numbers that much more accurate.
We can navel gaze at this all day, week, month decade but in the end one must believe or not believe (maybe a don't know is really the answer). We can't say with any certainty why this part was used or why that feature is a little different to another. I cannot put hand on heart and say the first diecast engine was 7415 or the last sandcast was 7414. I have to believe it is so but nobody has ever come up with either motor so how do we know it's correct
I choose to believe in the French Sandcasts as original Honda product. Why? I canna answer that Jimmy KP
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Asking for clarification-
The earlier sandcast engines only have the two digit date and E1 on the back of the top case but the "T" was not on the earlier cases, so why is it on these cases? When did it start to appear? Where theses cases cast at a different factory or different time period?
Was the "T" used for replacement cases sent to dealers or did it appear in normal production?
Can someone with an engine cast after June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....do other production sandcast engines have T designation charactor on their cases?
DW
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John,
I think that it is necessary to be a little bit serious to have also a minimum of common sense and logic!!
And we add well enttendu has all this a good pairs of glasses..
It is completely indispensable!!
You dispute certain details of spaces, smoothing, adaptations where of chiffres???
Why not!! Because when we want to find even very subtle differences everything is good has to take!!
Especially on a HONDA CB750 SANDCAST.. It looks like more at the beginning has of the small production which looks for its marks where which gropes rather than has of the big industrial production.. It explains all these oddities!!
I took time to annalyser this morning photos about 450 numbers Sandcasts of my Computer.
And indeed I can say to you that if the numbers for the series 14000 and 17000 Sandcast after-period are not original markings Honda.. And indeed 75 % of the numbers Sandcasts which I analyzed cannot be validated as being ORIGINAL HONDA if I take into account your criteria!!
You see a resoldered clutch cover while I I see only a clutch cover Diecast which was not pierced and consider I the difference is enormous!!
They did not make these clutch covers specially for these Sandcast, they did not simply drill tenth holes and it is of an irrefutable logic.
If you find real proofs questioning the authenticity of these Sandcasts after-period do not hesitate has to let it to me know..
Gerard
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over the years, there's been these special cl.covers on ebay usa. i'd need to see evidence the cl.covers were limited to only French sandcasts. for now, i don't believe the covers were exclusive for French. they've been seen on ebay in the usa. i think a couple members bought them to study...... KP ?
theories and opinions with evidence are necessary to arrive at a conclusion of "truth." with what little we know, i choose to believe the font is Honda oem. for me it's the only evidence that exists to date. we need more evidence to have a stronger conclusion about the French bikes.
as far as i'm concerned, without evidence, theories and opinions are not valid test of authenticity.
as it stands, other than the vin font, we have no other evidence to test the authenticity of the Franch bikes.
John, how do you KNOW the frame/engine combinations are not original ?
when i get a moment of free time, i will have to study again the vins.
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Jimmy,
on 1014143 the font looks like original, but when you look at it at detail you will find it is very thin. Honda letters are more wide.
About the 9 letter. It has not same width at curl, but Honda font I have seen has it.
Gerard, you are talking about different lining for engine numbers at Sandcast production. That is true, but only in the sandcast production. But your bikes are not sandcast production! Your bikes are late mass production on very late end of 1969 and beginning of 1970. VINs over 10k should be in line, if were marked from Honda production.
At 1969/70 Honda just knew some sandcasts had problem with broken cases. So why would Honda didn´t use them as replacement, but used them in mass production instead of diecast cases, which also required special clutch cover and gasket, and special engine number marking ? It means there should be another 3 different steps on production line. For me it has really no sence.
Steve, not matching (or missing frame) were mentioned in another topic. It means, that 50% french sandcasts do not have correct frames, which is also strange.
By the way, do these engines have only sandcast cases, or are sandcast engine ? As you know, sandcast engines has some different parts than diecast engines have. Hard to believe Honda had assambly complete sandcast engine among diecast engines. Can anyone asnwer this last question ?
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John, you're asking lots of good questions..... now, where do we get the answers...... ??? until we get more info, there will be no answers. only theories, discussions and opinions like we are seeing here.
John, i would GUESS these sandcast cases contain period parts consistent with what one would find in a 14xxx through 17xxx engine. but..... who knows ? again, we have not sufficient information to have anything but questions and opinions.
so i guess i need to go back and read what "not matching frames" and "missing frames" is about...... i'm guessing "missing frames" means there are engines only..... with no frames.
Until there is more evidence, MY OPINION is the font is Honda oem. i won't say the font's oem on every engine, but sure looks like oem font to me.
John do you believe all font is not oem ? if you believe no font oem, then i can understand why you believe the vins are fake.
if you believe at least one vin set is oem, how do you think the oem font got on the cases ?
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John
Yes, we can extrapolate on height of details which are insignificant..
And you know as me that it was not still the same worker who made the marking of these numbers
on engines and there were very certainly several sets of tools to make these markings of numbers.
It is also necessary to take into account these tools which wear out and we can even add the factor
of the conscientiousness because some people worker had to make the marking better than others.
All this put kicks has end explain all these differences. We can discuss for a long time these numbers which are
more or less done well, but they will remain nevertheless numbers fact by the factory Honda and that it is a certainty...
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Guys
Here is a very good example of number/stamping variations. Do I need say more KP
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-SANDCAST-CB750-KO-1969-CASES-2491-/141242520834?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20e2b5d502#ht_166wt_1026 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-SANDCAST-CB750-KO-1969-CASES-2491-/141242520834?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20e2b5d502#ht_166wt_1026)
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From my last post:
Asking for clarification-
The earlier sandcast engines only have the two digit date and E1 on the back of the top case but the "T" was not on the earlier cases, so why is it on these cases? When did it start to appear? Where theses cases cast at a different factory or different time period?
Was the "T" used for replacement cases sent to dealers or did it appear in normal production?
Can someone with an engine cast after June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....do other production sandcast engines have T designation charactor on their cases?
DW
This set of cases on eBay does not have the "T" stamped on them either.........
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Here are some numbers which we could also find suspect..
But nevertheless they are authentic it is certain.
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imho....... previous post of fonts are authentic honda oem.
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KP who ever stamped number CB750E-1002593 must have been out late the night before drinking Fosters. Marty K.
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i'd say they were into saki. Marty, would you agree these are still factory font ?
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Ya both wrong. The stamper was as sober as a judge, just had one eye.
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I also know the owner of the Sandcast E-1017199.
I am going to ask him to supply me with photos of stamps to compare with E-1017118.
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Steve and KP yes factory font. Marty K.
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John,
By the way, do these engines have only sandcast cases, or are sandcast engine ? As you know, sandcast engines has some different parts than diecast engines have. Hard to believe Honda had assambly complete sandcast engine among diecast engines. Can anyone asnwer this last question ?
Yes, and what are these different parts of which you want speak? I shall like to know them to answer you because you move forward always of hypotheses without ever any real precision.
Give I lists her parts which you consider different enter Sandcast E-1007414 and Diecast E-1007415? Or even E-1007515? Or another E-1007615? E-1007716?
If you dismantle them, you will notice that they are identical 99,99 %..:o
The assembly line of engines Diecast was exactly the same (at the beginning) that for engines Sandcast, the internal parts were the same and the alone crankcases engine and cluth cover were modified and not only on some hundreds..
I do not even imagine the high authority Honda to say has his workers: We pass has the production of engines Diecast then you throw the old stocks of engines Sandcast!!
Here are photos of the various parts of E-1017118 and who can say without making a mistake that they would not have been able to result from E-1007414? Or a lower number? Certainly nobody..
And you did not more answer has Steve very very good question:
John, how do you KNOW the frame/engine combinations are not original ?
If you have an original list Honda of the numbers VIN-E he would be interesting for the group to know her..
G.G
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Gerard:
ad 1: look at old parts list for sandcast and parts list for diescast K0.
ad 2: You have not true, I had just answered Steve. These informations were mentioned in other topics. It means there was another person saying it as well, not only me. Just find it yourselve.
As I said, I told you my opinion, and I asked several questions. I just don´t believe french sandcast because it has no sence and there is also not any proof. If there will be any proof, OK let show me it, I will change my decision. If you believe these bikes are real, I respect it, but also please respect my opinion. That´s all.
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John,
I respect your opinion as I have already told it you but I do not share him, just like I understand very well that you do not share mine. Have you anything of the person who shares your "theory"?
The question of the end but with a single possible answer:
These Crankcases are Sand-casting or Die-casting? :-[ :-[
I do not know how you go to make to by-pass this embarrased question? But there, I trust you ;)
Thanks, Gérard.
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Im my opinion;
All the parts are correct for an early K0 Evin number.
The valve cover cast is differente from the sandcast period.
The french sandcasts are authentic, motors were assembled by honda factory in a diecast period with sandcast cases, simple.
Marcello
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Marcello, your opinion joins mine..
You would not have photos of one valve cover sandcast without this hollow surrounded in red? Thank you.
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You would not have photos of one valve cover sandcast without this hollow surrounded in red? Thank you.
Here is the cover without the hollow.
Au revoir.
Marcello
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Yes, I remember now having already seen these tracks of frictions caused by the Holders
of Camshaft.. We do not wonder any more having seen this detail, why Valve cover was modified..
Thanks,
Gérard
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All the details of the differences are on the website under technical There are more than just that casting difference
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KP,
Maybe I am not looking in the right place, but I can't find this mentioned or pics of early cylinder jug. Are there noticeable differences in the earlier cylinder jugs on the Sandcasts through the different engine vins? Are Sandcast cylinder jugs different from the die-cast?
Thanks for any help,
DW
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Ok Don't know where they went ???
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From what I understand the cylinder jugs produced with the extra hole on the front of the cam chain roller were used on the Sandcasts and die-cast cylinder jugs, but there are no outer appearance difference until they started to die-cast the jugs sometime at the end of the K1 unit production, is that correct?
DW
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From what I understand the cylinder jugs produced with the extra hole on the front of the cam chain roller were used on the Sandcasts and die-cast cylinder jugs, but there are no outer appearance difference until they started to die-cast the jugs sometime at the end of the K1 unit production, is that correct?
DW
Correct until E26143, cylinder jugs without the extra 6x90 bolt.
Marcello
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In what numbers began the die-cast production on cylinders? ???
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In what numbers began the die-cast production on cylinders? ???
Mid K1 . My parts book don't show this transition number.
Marcello
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Here we go then
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OK thank you kp, it is full of small very interesting subtle details...
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Thanks KP! This is great information!
DW
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Here are photos of E-1017135 which sent me the owner.
He has never received from paint either..
You will notice that the Clutch cover "9/10" is still present.
Curiously, no track of this stamp with the T ??
I do not understand why it T on E-1017118 and not on E-1017135 with if can of gap between both numbers?? ???
Before receiving photos I was practically certain that he would be there.. But we can never swear to anything..