Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => Member's Bikes => Topic started by: Tango911 on July 09, 2014, 12:02:41 am
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I picked up this bike last week from the 2nd owner who had torn the bike down to restore. Not sure he had ever restored a bike before as he did not baggie or label anything. He purchased about $3,000.00 worth of new honda parts still in their respective bags and a couple aftermarket parts (not sure how many are correct for this bike). From the info I have, this bike seems to have been purchased new by a member here (Kleis), or maybe he's not a member but is listed in the vin directory. I have no clue what I will do with this bike until I take a full inventory and find out whats missing. From what i have heard the engine failed early on and Honda replaced it with a factory non vinned sandcast engine. Most of the high dollar parts seem to be there but there are some questions.
1. The pipes are none stamped but one is different then the other three. Someone mentioned on facebook that the three are Lotus root???
2. The tank although it looks like its a wrinkle has been cut open from the bottom and re welded. Doesnt seem like a good thing
3. Does the non vin engine lessen the value of the bike?
4. The engine is locked up but the transmission shifts through all the gears well. I would imagine after 89k it needs re built.
Thats for starters guys, Ill let you look at the pictures and see what you have to say. Thanks again for adding me to the group!!
Pictures: http://s15.photobucket.com/user/Tango911/slideshow/SANDCAST (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/Tango911/slideshow/SANDCAST)
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A non number sand cast engine has it not got a casting date on it?
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Hi Steve, Thanks for the picture summary. You have your work cut out but that's a good base for a restoration. Yep, the unstamped cases will lessen the value but by what amount is a guess. A fully restored early VIN bike will pull in excess of $30k all day and every day so the question really is academic when we talk of these amounts. The positive is the unstamped cases are sandcast as opposed to the later diecast. These are my thoughts and others may have further comment. KP
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Are Honda number stamp fonts unique, someone might have the correct stamps then you could make them perfect
Pete
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Once I'm moved into my new shop I will get more detailed into each part starting with the big pieces and working my way down.
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Not sure stamping numbers on an un-numbered set is the way to go. They are obviously replacement cases and may have some later differences than the very early cases that would be correct for your sandcast. They will have date codes on the back that will date them to when they were produced and verify that the top and bottom are a matched set. Placing numbers on them that are earlier than the production date would really raise a red flag.
Not that I've never thought of doing something like this. I just realize that once it's done you can't un do it.
The value of an un-stamped set of sandcast cases is a bit less than ones with a vin on them. The value of your sandcast is considerably higher though as you are in the three digit vin club.
One of your baffles is definitely later/non lotus root. Compare the height of the external seams on the mufflers and internal supporting to verify that one of the mufflers is in fact non lotus root as well. I'd wager it is but I'd also check.
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good thoughts, i wont be stamping the engine. i thinks its rare and cool just like it is. Ill check the pipes, hopefully they are all lotus and i just need the baffle. Thanks for the input!
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Are Honda number stamp fonts unique, someone might have the correct stamps then you could make them perfect
Pete
Yes I think the fonts are unique to Honda Pete like the 'droopy pear'.. as Vic World calls it, '9' character. I have deliberated long and hard as to whether I should stamp the original engine No. into my unstamped K0 diecast cases, even looked at close no. replacement stamped ones but the cases I am pretty sure have been with my bike from very early on and really are part of it's UK history. I wouldn't really like a seller to sell me a bike with non original number cases without declaring they had been changed. Changing cases to the 'correct number range' seems to be cheating a bit to me. I know it adds to value but I am in it as a hobby to keep me sane, not the money.
BTW anyone know how you can date identify replacement cases?
Cheers .. AshD
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Ash my K0 cases were cast and date coded on the 26/9/69 not sure if all cases are date stamped or not
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10004/normal_005%7E1.JPG)
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got a pic of what it looked like before it was torn down. How bout them dirt bike bars lol
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Tango911/SANDCAST/CB7504-10008_zps32d5a194.jpg)
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finally finished my shop, several customers ahead of the Sandcast but hope to start it soon. Ill have tons of questions. One being whats the opinion of paint vs powder coating for the frame and other black parts. Normally on a cb750 build I powder coat all the black parts, polish and clean all the aluminum and paint the skins. I guess really what im asking is, Does powder coating the sandcast hurt the value?
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No powder coating, it will lower the value. My suggestion is to use correct paint, anodizing, zinc and chrome for your bike. Incorrect finishes are a no-no.
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90% gloss is recommended.
Marcello
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thanks for the advice. I finally finished my new shop and Im all moved in. I have a few projects to finish up as well as a few customer bikes to work on. Then ill be working on the Sandcast. Stay tuned :)
Steve
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/Tango911/Tango911005/theshop_zps662d0db1.jpg)
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i have a bucket of new parts still in the bag i have to go through that the PO bought for the bike. I would imagine most are not sandcast. Is there an easy way to compare the numbers?
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Steve, I replied to your email. Keith
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Thanks for the email and phone call. I appreciate the advice and info. Looks like this three digit will be getting restored starting early to late summer.
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If you are parting this bike out you will certainly make more than selling as a whole Just a shame to see these bikes being sold off for parts but then the collectors/restorers need to get their parts from some source and that is generally from people parting out early bikes. We have seen early bikes being parted out in recent times and the bidding is certainly brisk with parts selling for better than average money
KP
PS Yep, I know many won't agree with what I've posted but no point in howling me down, it's just a view that needs to be explored
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KP, Couldn't agree with you more on getting some needed parts, but do you really think a 3 digit SC would bring more in parts than say that recent example on eBay that apparently just sold for $23,100.00? Maybe on a good day, $3500 for an original motor, $2500 for an original frame, got a long way to go to make it up on the beads and trinkets. I just bought that last 4 digit basket case, complete bike, for $4500.00. Not howling, just asking.
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Hi Keith
I agree with you entirely about a 3 digit and do know you don't howl ;D As I posted earlier, a restored 3 digit is worth good money, however, my thoughts were based more on the question posted about restore vrs part it out. Looking at 658, it is a bike in need of a lot of parts, has a non-original set of cases etc etc, so it would seem to me it would be a labour of love and money to get it to the high standard (and high $$ level). In any case, the non stamped engine will always be a problem. I'm really not sure what it would sell for "as is" but think it should realise around $15k+++ parted out. Maybe I'm over-estimating the parts value though.
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KP, Couldn't agree with you more on getting some needed parts, but do you really think a 3 digit SC would bring more in parts than say that recent example on eBay that apparently just sold for $23,100.00? Maybe on a good day, $3500 for an original motor, $2500 for an original frame, got a long way to go to make it up on the beads and trinkets. I just bought that last 4 digit basket case, complete bike, for $4500.00. Not howling, just asking.
Keith, i paid $4.5k for E254 around 2006. i think both you and KP are right.
that 3 digit (7xx?) that just sold on ebay is not the same bike dollar-wise as a 3 digit under the 300 - 400 vin range. other than a very few parts and one less zero, vins 100-300 are precious little different from any 2 digit.
a few digits beyond vin 400, vins are nearly the same as any of the 4 digit bikes up thru vin 4148. i believe the early 3 digits have their own price range, separate from later 3 digit units. just like lh horn vinss are viewed generally more desirable than rh horn vins.
depending on who's bidding to win a part to complete whatever vin they need parts for, i think it's entirely possible parted out is worth more than together, especially if the parts are coming off a "scab." and, depending on the variables affecting making up a fickle day on ebay.
i can't imagine attempting in today's climate restoring a sandcast with nos and staying away from repro parts. some nos parts have become nla, especially nos gauges. if one's using repro parts, prob can keep price down significantly compared to finding/buying nos.
that 7xx ebay bike was no scab and brought close to what it's worth, imho. parted out, it's hard to imagine the bike bringing as much or more then the $23.1k figure. and it's hard to imagine doing a nos or original parts restoration much under $23.1k, much less a restoration with a few key repro parts for under $23.1k. so, maybe that 7xx bike would be worth more dead than alive.
so many variables affecting values; parts bikes, basket cases, complete bikes, running vs rolling, vin ranges, original vs repro, integrity of restoration, buyer being saavy of correctness, etc.
personally, i hate to see any bike parted out, but i've parted out bikes myself. agreed, if bikes were not parted out, it would be an even stiffer course for making our restorations right. and i've restored more than one bike starting with a parts book and literally a handful of parts. and in some cases paid dearly for what parts i needed when i found them. 232 needed a 19 L tank. i bid to win and win i did.... paid $2.6k for that nineteener.... paid $1.2k for an 11 hole like nos seat. Paid $1.1k for a set of nos gauges. all this was nearly 10 years ago. Seen a total of 3 ninteeners on ebay since 2000. seen only 1 original 11 hole seat since 2000. when's the last time we saw a set of nos gauges on ebay ? My how time flies !!!!!
in order to test the "worth more dead than alive theory," i think Mark should part out vin 97 on ebay giving reference in his auction to the authenticity of his parts as seen in his restoration thread........ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I agree bikes do need to be parted out, otherwise what chance would i stand building my sandcast pictured below, and as for repro parts , i hazzard as guess that 90% of members here who have restored a sandcast or early K0 have used repro parts, for example if you had to replace a sandcast seat, you would probably wait till the end of your life and never see a nos one, if you found a secondhand one there is no way the foam is going to be good, you have to do whatever necessary to restore bikes, so people parting out bikes early or late vin are providing a much needed service, i have to say it does break my heart when i do see a good bike parted out , but needs must and all that
pete
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10004/__57.JPG)
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in order to test the "worth more dead than alive theory," i think Mark should part out vin 97 on ebay giving reference in his auction to the authenticity of his parts as seen in his restoration thread........ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
There have been days I've thought about it. ::)
As far as parting out I'm not opposed to it (except when I didn't get them ;) ). I've gotten some parts that I wouldn't have gotten any other way. I agree it would be a shame to part out a complete, correct specimen but even then there may be several more bikes that are brought back to life. After the work I have into putting 97 together I probably won't be taking it apart but I think I could make more money parting it out than selling it complete, if my goal was to make money. ;D
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All valid points and KP you are correct in your speculation of value regarding the unstamped cases even though they are Sandcast replacements. I guess I made my assessment in this case after talking to Steve and learning what he would like to realize for this bike. KP may be correct. He might get close by parting it out since he does have an original set of Lotus roots. Mark is also correct if the goal is just to make money. I am most certainly biased and just normally think restoration if there's a pretty good starting point and it's a titled frame, especially a 3 digit version.
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Parting out sounds like a way to get the value out of the bike, but it rarely works out that way.
What happens is that you end up selling the valuable stuff right away, then you get stuck with the rest of the bike for a very long time, and rarely sell all the parts.
I have been following the fate of two eBay sellers that are selling parted out sandcasts, they shall remain anonymous.
Seller one list every single part, even small screw sets, at very high prices. I follow his auctions, and he almost never sells anything.
Seller two who we all know lists just the big stuff and sells about half of it at low prices. He always bid on his own items. I have bought a half dozen items from him. Each item I am the only bidder on the item, then at the very last minute a mysterious bidder out bids me. I call his shop, and with my tongue in my cheek , I ask him if he has another one he will sell for the price of the winner. I have bought several items this way.
I have also noticed seller two will list the same item in numerous auctions at the same time. He has screwed up and has used the same pictures in different auctions, he has at least three alias I know of.
I don't really have a problem with his practices, he is just trying to get the most he can get, he is searching for the market value on stuff that is hard to price.
But if you watch ebay carefully they list the same stuff time and time again, most of it rarely sells in a true fashion. They bid on their own stuff to make it look like it sells.
I personally don't believe you can sell all the parts or even most of the parts of a complete bike in a period of time less than a long one.
I am very active in a local chapters of two national clubs, VJMC and AMCA. I have know MANY members who thought they could part of a rare bike and make some money over the market value of the complete bike. It usually ends with them offering the partially disassembled bike free to anyone who will get it out of their garage by the weekend !
Don't get me wrong, you can part out Bikes, but rarely do you sell all the parts, usually the cosmetic stuff that can be made to look new will go in a reasonable amount of time, the wear items that can't be reconditioned will linger long enough that you will have noticeable change in the color of your hair !
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I'm sort of half way with you on this. The facts are that many items on a sandcast are worth the same as if it belonged to a K1. The rare items will always sell and for big bucks whereas the rest is just scrap value. If I was to part out a mid run 3 digit VIN bike with all the bits this is how it would go. I have based my estimates giving moderate values based on OK parts without damage
Starting from the front wheel and moving back
double cut fender $300
disc calliper $150
front wheel $80
brake hoses $300
forks $150
top triple clamp $300
bottom triple clamp $50
junction for brake hoses $150
headlight shell #1 marking $150
fork ears $100
speedo and tacho cables $300
instruments $600
LH switch $30
RH switch (early) $300
master cylinder $350
early master cylinder cap $400 +++
mirrors $200
mid run tank $800
early petcock $350
early seat $2000 +++
head, cylinders, internals etc $500
thin lip alternator cover $500 +++
early 9 hole clutch cover $500 (late maybe $250)
early oil hoses $500
early oil tank $250
early carbs $1000 (with 28 caps add $1000)
early 2 hole air box $800 (mid $500)
air box brackets $200
early intake air box rubbers $100+++
cam cover $200
spigots for exhaust $150
clamps for exhaust $350
early brake pedal $300 +++
early side cover badges $250
side covers $200
wiring harness $200
engine case (assume small pad) $3500
sandcast frame $2000 ++++
shocks $100
early stand $200
rear wheel $600
engine fastener set $200
all other bolts #8 $200
rear fender $200
Other stuff such as swing arm , seat clamp, indicators, etc etc etc say $500
I've certainly missed stuff here
Hey I'm at $20,000 and over and I believe I'm being conservative
Add a set of genuine LR exhausts in good order then add $5000
Can I add that of the 2 early bikes parted out in the last 2 years by the sellers I think are being flagged, I placed a watch on every part they had for sale.(I also bought a fair swag of the items concerned) and in both cases these parts realised over $16,000 for both sellers and they didn't have some of the parts I listed. No early seat and only 1 had a tank and carbs
The truth is these machines will reap the sellers good rewards for average parts
The reality is that one of these sellers lists everything as being sandcast and a lot of his junk doesn't sell. But believe me, if it's a rare part off an early bike it will sell first time every time and for big $$$
Hope this helps
KP
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Some great info there guys, much appreciated! Should I mock the bike up to see what all is missing. I know most if not all the high dollar parts are here.
?
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KP, you show about fifty parts with prices.
Assuming all the parts are reusable, you have to box and package, and ebay costs (small but they add up) and pay for shipping.
Then add in a value to all the time you spend cleanings, photographing, listing the parts, packaging, etc.
I agree it can be done, but it is probably for someone who has an easy daily schedule, with extra time on their schedule.
I recently started an experiment with used parts. I have restored two old pieces, a brake rod from a sand cast, and a chain guard from a dirt bike. I refinished both and listed them on ebay. I am trying to see if ready to go parts are easier to sell. So far no offers, but I will see how it goes.
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I only listed those parts worth $$ to show what a bike is worth broken up. Sure, there is much more but if you want to list everything it would only add maybe $1k more. I forgot the chain guard, horn, recessed switch and steering lock.
It sure isn't an easy job doing it as you point out, but time is an opportunity cost to the seller. Postage is a cost to the buyer not the seller. If one wants to take the time to do it; it can pay off in the long run. If the owner doesn't want to go to the trouble then sell it whole, I'm not advocating either way. I certainly would not value 658 as a buyer at more than $10 to $12k. It may realise more as a whole but I would be surprised if it did although eBay is fickle marketplace
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What's your take on the recent Sandcast that sold on ebay for $23,000.
Was that a high price or market value ?
How about the impact of original condition relative to price ??
I went to the Las Vegas Auction two weeks ago, didn't see any Sandcasts for sale. But the other CB 750's went for high prices in my opinion.
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Im leaning on parting this bike out. I know i wont be able to take the time thats needed on this piece. I have a good idea what parts will/should go for but the non vinned locked engine, im just not sure. It is a sandcast factory replacement, Im wondering if it will bring more by parting it out instead of selling as one.
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Most of my SC parts are sold now. I will post in parts for sale in the correct section.
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I thought i would update the status of this bike. After much thought i decided to part this 658 out. The profit of this bike goes right back into my shop that was built last year. Since April i have repaird 50 bikes and love my new part time job fixing buying selling and restoring these old vintage japanese bikes.
I want to thank everyone for their input and advice. I bought this bike for $1800.00 including a motorcycle lift. This was a find of a lifetime for me! At the time i was ignorant about sandcast and thought i just had an early CB750 worth about 5k or so. He did have info about sandcast bikes in the folder he gave me so im not sure how he didnt know the worth. If he would only have done some research. Once i got home, after researching the info for a couple hours and then of course counting the clutch bolts, i realized that i might just have something of more worth than I thought, even though the bike was a total basket case. I plan on doing something nice for the PO soon since i profited so well.
Results: I sold this bike in two parts lots
1. the frame, engine, swing arm, gauges, oil tank ,wheels (all but the tank, LR pipes, Seat and Forks) went to a nice gentleman in the UK for $8000.00
2. The tank, LR pipes, Seat and Forks was traded for three bikes worth about $7000.00 all titled and running and very nice.
Both people are very much into SC and I feel these parts are in very good hands.