Honda CB750 Sandcast
Web Site and Bulletin Board Changes => Web Site Changes => Topic started by: Wayne on January 04, 2015, 03:30:06 pm
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OK, a new year and time to get moving on the site changes. I decided to go with a more simplistic look that is easy on the eyes and easier to read. Most of us are getting to the age where the vision isn't what it used to be. ;)
Here's a link to the new look. I'm working backwards, these pages are as they will be presented. Once all pages are complete I'll add the new home page to the directory and we will be "live" with a new look. I'm open to adding additional information, images etc. so browse the pages as they are added and let me know. Until I replace the homepage with the new style, the original site will remain intact. I will offer a zipped copy of the old site minus for BB and gallery for those who may want it.
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/machine_types.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/machine_types.html)
You may have noticed I am trying to sell a few ad spots to offset the costs of running the site. If you know of anyone looking for exposure pass them my email: sandcast750@gmail.com
Also I have added a PayPal Donation button at the top of the board. You can show your appreciation for the SOOC and support future development by giving it a click. Every bit helps.
Have a Happy New Year and may all your sandcast dreams come true!
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Looks good Wayne , thanks for your time and effort
pete
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Wayne,
My congratulations on your excellent work done with great taste!!
Gerard
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Thanks guys. I'm moving fast on the changes now. Pages are being updated and added quickly. Any input is appreciated. I want us on the new format ASAP.
I already see the main menu could use a bit more space between the links. I'll make that change. I'm going to leave the gallery as is for now.
I'll add the existing technical information / distinctions in the new format. The big job is adding all of the distinctions with images after that. That will be a work in progress after we change over as it doesn't exist now anyway.
Of course if you think there's a better picture/image than what I used for any page we can make that change easily. :)
Any donation to offset hosting and domain costs helps. Thanks. PayPal Donate button is at the top of the board. :)
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OK, onto the big one, the Technical section. What I'm doing here is by parts manual section, listing "distinctions" with any part number changes, description where necessary and detailed images. I'll put a line through each distinction as it's completed. You can see the index at this link. Any menu items underlined and in burnt orange have content for your review. Any suggestions/feedback is appreciated.
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html)
1. 12 mm nuts, fork clamp, 1-2157 (14 mm, 2158-onward )
2. short neck brake hose fittings, 1-2157 (long neck, 2158-onward)
43. upper brake hose steel neck fitting straight,1-2157 (late production has bend) Is this not the same as #2?
44. no rubber boot on upper brake hose to master cylinder, 1-2721 Does this mean units between 2157 thru 2721 had the later line with bend but without rubber boot?
3. No hose guide metal plate for bottom hose at junction box 1 - to 3950
4. 20.4mm wide nose on upper triple clamp, 1-3433 (22.4 mm 3434-onward)
5. no leveling ring on master cylinder reservoir, 1-2435 Is the 26mm high mirror boss vs the late 31mm high an separate distinction?
6. no “off-on-off” marking on kill switch body, 1-673)
7. pointerless kill knob (1-441)
8. LH mount horn (1-3949)
9. grey body horn with grey wire sheath
10. some grey body horns noted to have black wire sheath
11. knurled Allen screw heads, brake caliper, 1-1256 (smooth, 1257-onward)
12. 66 mm choke arm up to vin 1120 (52 mm late production)
13. horizontal brass vented carburetor bodies, 1-302, late carb bodies have cast 90 degree "L" type vent
14. short neck fuel tap, 1-1937 (long neck, 1938-onward)
15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325) (410)
16. 10 hole seat pan w/ 6 mm threaded hole so far to to VIN 1081. (late production 17 hole)
17. upper triple clamp nose less acute angle, 1-3433
18. 16 t. counter shaft sprocket, E1-E3527
19. all early “8” chassis/engine bolts
20. thin lip alternator cover, E1-E2134 Two types. Smooth HONDA background and rough HONDA background
21. “Lotus Root” exhaust, 1-4148, no “HM300” stampings, no brake pedal relief (ditto late production)
A. long, cylindrical steel removable sound diffuser with no external fiber covering and not interchangeable with late production exhaust.
B. 5 mm welded seam (late production 7mm seam)
C. mufflers have no internal baffles, only a plate with a hole for which the long cylindrical baffle slips in to for support
D. 6 mm hex head removable screw fixes baffle to muffler body, this screw is not welded to baffle as in late type exhaust
E. bolt mount hole diameter 55 mm (late production 58 mm)
22. no vertical crimp markings on oil line (smooth) ferrules
23. smooth rubber fabric oil lines, E1-E338 (late production webbed fabric)
24. swing arm (rear fork) date stamped, left underside bushing area
25. oil tank date stamped, inside top rear mounting bracket
26. “8” bolts fixing rear sprocket to carrier up to 232 (302 has plain head bolts)
27. no diagonal brace on center stand, 1-1120
28. round, fin-less, non-webbed oil filter cover, E1-E4148
29. 14 mm hex head, oil filter bolt to E4148, 12mm beginning 4149
30. driver portion of seat less thick, horizontal surface
31. passenger portion of seat angled
32. 2-hole air box bracket, 1-4006
33. no relief on upper air box cover, We have no information that "no relief" features on upper covers between VINs 674 to 1553
34. 2-hole air box brackets 30 mm, 1-4006 (24 mm 4007-onward)
35. pillion rest/muffler bolts 146 mm, 1-1221 (148 mm, 1222-onward)
36. upper crankcase vin pad 11 mm wide (late production 19 mm)
37. no casting dates on early crankcases (E1-not known after E254)
38. no casting divots at crankcase base of #4 cylinder hole
39. exhaust pipe clamps, “fat” fins, 1-2435
A. #1/#4 clamps, no relief on back side of fins (not interchangeable with #2/#3)
B. #2/#3 clamps, relief milled on back side of fins (not interchangeable with #1/#4)
40. “8” bolts fix master cylinder clamp to master cylinder up to 2157 (late production plain head, chrome)
41. early lower frame steering head has steering damper gusseting, noted on frames up to vin 1588
42. caliper backing plate more deeply finned
43. upper brake hose steel neck fitting straight,1-2157 (late production has bend)
44. no rubber boot on upper brake hose to master cylinder, 1-2721
45. sand cast cam chain tensioner body, E1-E1106
46. 10 mm rotor bolt (E1-E1080) (12 mm, E1081-onward)
47. acorn hex head bolt, starter cover
48. narrow counter shaft, E1-E3527
49. 8x80 left rear crankcase bolt, E1-E219
50. No guide lugs as cast part on junction box for top brake hose (up to VIN 1927 identified)
51. no rubber cushions for air box mount bracket & air box upper body (until 4006)
52. short knurled ring nuts on speedometer/tachometer cables, 1-2157
53. wiring harness 32100-300-040, 1-3479 (32100-30-050, 3480-onward)
54. no wire clip fixed to horn to guide tachometer cable (1-3950)
55. left side horn mounting bracket, 1-3950
56. frame has LH horn mount, 1-3950
57. crank shaft has 10 mm threaded hole for rotor fixing bolt, E1-E1080 (12 mm, 1081-onward)
58. webbed fabric oil line, smooth ferrule, 303-2435
59. chrome hex head brake line bolts, 1-2720 (zinc plated 2721-onward
60. 5 mm flanges on exhaust spigots, 1-665 (6 mm, 666-onward)
61. date stamped lower triple clamp
62. round captive 6mm nuts on battery box, fixing regulator to battery box (late production, square nuts)
63. small side cover grommets 1-1120 (“240” middle part number)
64. exhaust spigot flanges, radius on each long diagonal side, (E100 has 4 radius type.) (E342 has 2 radius type and 2 thin 5mm straight type.)
65. RH oil gallery plug, solid, 1-1106 (bored hole, 1107-onward)
66. rear M6 cylinder head/cylinder fixing bolt “special” type, same as four underneath cam carriers, 1-1106 (“normal” 8 head bolt, 1107-onward)
67. no locating rib on speedo/tach rubbers, 1-3433 (locating rib, 3434 -onward)
68. sandcast cam carriers, oil pump, clutch center spider, gearshaft bearing housing, E1-E338
69. no holes in ends of rear wheel cush rubbers, 1-302 (late type have holes)
70. no garter springs on valve stem guide seals, 1-338
71. piston oil control rings have helper springs, E1-E338
72. front oil gallery plug smaller diameter than later plug
73. adhesive aluminum vin tag, RH steering head, no manufacture month/year
74. riveted on aluminum vin tag, RH steering head, containing month/year of manufacture, beginning 9/69 (Sept. last month of sandcast manufacture)
75. red plug key, per HONDA factory brochure (?? on first few production bikes??)
76. around E600/E700 began having “mixed oil lines, i.e., smooth and webbed fabric, both line types still using smooth ferrule
77. around E338, lower case date stamped, upper case no date stamp
78. weld seams on frame gussets lower than late production weld seams (late production has higher weld seams)
79. lower connections, oil line to engine, smaller, less "beefy"
80. round hole in speedo/tach mounting rings, 1-302 (303-onward oblong hole)
81. 11 mm mirror stems, 1-302. Threaded to unthreaded portion of post has an actual step, appearing machine turned. Mirror stem at clamp end smooth. (Later mirror stems 10 mm without machine turned step and a circle outline visible at clamp end.)
82. Later LH horn mount frames have no gusseting for steering damper, first noted on frame 1023
83. Early clutch cover have thin lip in “10th hole” area, later covers have thick lip. Thin lip known up to 1106, thick lip after 1107
84. Relief on upper case of airbox, 673 recorded as the highest VIN without relief. If you have a higher VIN let us know
85. Profile of relief of frame down tubes in front top air box area less acute, relief has rounded hand hammered appearance on early frames, 1-302. Later frames this relief appears as result of a machine stamped operation, flattened acute “V” in appearance.
86. Cast bosses with untapped 6mm holes of upper crankcase in the primary chain "tunnel" area for what appears to have been intended to fix a guide for upper primary chain, approximately the first 200 crank cases.
87. Neutral switch has no chamfer to accommodate pushing through O-ring, replacement switch has chamfer
88. Smooth background of HONDA logo on alternator cover, up to around E835, wrinkled background after approx.E835, both covers thin lip type.
89. Bearing, countershaft outer drive, 1-5306, plain outer race. 5307-onward, outer circumference of race grooved to accomodate retaining ring.
90. radius on welded seam of oil tank, front upper RH corner. (up to 302)
91. 17 mm hex/acorn head nuts fixing upper shock absorber to frame (on random vins up to 248)
92. Backing plate, rear brake, inside: four ribs around the center (axel) hole with (later type) and without (early type) the round bosses. Straight or plain ribs (early) vs. ribs with round bosses (late.) Suspect round bosses were for mold ejecting pins. Early type plain ribs create 4 distinct 'holes'. Later type does not have 4 distinct 'holes' as seen in early type. Later type has 4 distinct round bosses; as noted prior, likely for mold ejecting pins.
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This one is incorrect:
15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325)
Sandcast e436 has a 19l tank.
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This one is incorrect:
15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325)
Sandcast e436 has a 19l tank.
Anyone want to chime in before I add the fuel tank distinctions and VIN breakpoints to the page?
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html)
I really need members to follow this thread and assist where possible with information and pictures if required. This is the last area to complete on the site overhaul. Thanks!
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Just show proof, here is 410/e436:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5609/15287666799_687df0a5db_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/phVhJ4)
Other than the tires, grips and the fuel tab, i believe the bike to be original
Here is a pic of the underside of the tank (on the left with a 17L for comparison on the right):
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15287653729_f6a5684ce8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/phVdQH)
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the way i read #44, short neck brake line used until 2721 AND no rubber boot was fitted.
it's been so long since i made that entry......
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This one is incorrect:
15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325)
Sandcast e436 has a 19l tank.
This is not about being "incorrect".... It's about what we continue to learn.
Vins 1-325 having 19 L tanks; that's all we knew as having been reported at the time i made that entry, sometime around 2007.....
Really great to see people are reporting in their findings, and we've found a wrinkle tank as high as frame 410.
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And AGAIN. Thank you Wayne for taking over this project and bringing the website to a new higher and better level !!!!
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Thank you gents. It is suggested here that there was a mid-run "2-dimple" tank. Does anyone have a picture of one or point me to it?
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm)
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Thank you gents. It is suggested here that there was a mid-run "2-dimple" tank. Does anyone have a picture of one or point me to it?
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm)
it may have been KP who made mention of this tank.
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also: let me say, Wayne.... a lot of info/pics you are resurrecting from the website were loaded in the very late date days of 2004 and throughout 2005. SOOC was built as a place to collect in one place info for the rest of the on line planet to see. We had yet much to learn and then knew little. people who contributed then haven't been for some time. there was a frenzy of sorts to learn as much as we could and share what we learned. KP and i emailed each other DAILY for nearly 2 years sharing info, comparing our findings. from when i bought 4363 in 2001, i reached out to anyone and everyone i could find who owned or knew anything about sandcasts.
The whole impetus for forming SOOC 2004 was: by that time i had finished restoration on 4363 and had met a number of guys in my search of learning more. a number of them had mid and early 3 digit bikes. i quickly became aware their early digit bikes were significantly different fomr 4363. My always wondering decades prior why the blue-green bike in the early Honda ads looked so different than 4363....? Why did so many of the 750's pictured in early magazines look so different from other 750's pictured in later magazines... ?? and in this pursuit of information, learning the earlier vins had numerous differences remarkable from later vins. Now we know that blue-green bike CB750-2114 was not a production bike... That there were numerous factory test mules. and at least 6 different other types of 750's; early/late "prototype," early/late pre-prod and early/late prod.
All this was before i knew 232 existed, yet knowing these differences existed certainly fueled my passion to learn more. Also, was the annoying fact some who i talked to were clearly keeping what they knew as secret as possible or giving misinformation either out of ignorance or deliberately.
Some of what is in the website may need further verification or substantiation. i would never say it's a accurate or correct. It's what we had learned at the time. sources for some of that info have been lost or no longer participate. Another reason i started the website, there was, depending on who you talked to a wealth of consistent and conflicting information. As we progressed, some of the consistent info we learned was incorrect and some of the inconsistent info became consistent as we learned more. We've had many discoveries in the 10 years since SOOC was formed December 24, 2004.
today, you can read info about sandcasts on the internet and ebay you would not read 10 years ago. much of what you read on the internet today has come from what people have read on the SOOC site. Many terms describing features unique to the sandcast have come from this website and become common terminology. The ebay auction for vin 776 exemplifies the fact. Doubtfully, without the SOOC, there would not be as much mania over owning an earlier vin than a later vin as there is today. that an early vin evaluates today for more than a late vin. or the fact a 441 mile late prod.vin sold for around $40k and 2114 sold for $140K. About all we knew then of differences were lotus root exhaust and left hand vs right hand horn mounts. The term "French sandcasts" were more myth not fact. Today, we know several exist.
Around 2005, our discovering there was a long choke arm in contrast to a short was a BIG deal. The AMA having SOOC be the VMD Vintage club was a big deal and there we learned from Vic, there were 10 mm and 11 mm mirror stems.
Some select few knew for years and even decades prior to SOOC's being formed the uniqueness of the various sandcast 750 Honda machines. But, this info was not common knowledge. Probably forming SOOC, all that we've learned and put on the internet, in some ways has it's pro's and con's.
it's safe to say, SOOC has brought much, if not nearly all we've learned to date... together. in one place.
So, again.... Thank you Wayne for taking this project to it's next level.
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I applaud Wayne and Steve on their input and contribution.
There are 3 wrinkle tank types that I'm aware of. The 19 litre without dimples (well none to speak of) and two (2) 17 litre tanks that have 4 dimples. For those who are unfamiliar with the term dimple we are simply referring to the indentations in the tank directly above the carb slide/cable adjusters when the tank is fitted. Identification of the mid run 17 litre is not an easy task especially from a photo. Chris Rushton may be better able to describe the differences than I but I will attempt it as follows
The 19 litre tank had a unique (to it) petcock which, when mounted stood much lower than the later petcock. Whilst I have no facts to back up why it was changed, I presume it was done as the early type was so close to the bottom edge of the tank it was very difficult to operate. The later petcock is around 1/4"+++ (6 to 10mm) taller than the early type. Physically the 2 petcocks are externally different in the main body The bowl and actuation lever are the same or very similar.
Well we know that the 19 litre tank was replaced (we now know at least after VIN 410) with the 17 litre tank, however, the early petcock wasn't replaced and continued to be fitted to machines up to/around VIN 2000 (give or take 200 VINs either way). This mid run 17 litre tank had a very distinctive petcock mounting pad which stands a little higher and is quiet different to the late run 17 litre tank. The 17 litre in the photograph provided by Ujeni could well be a mid run 17 litre but as I said previously; very very hard to tell from a photograph.
I have to state that the person who told me about these mid run tanks was Andy Morris and I believe the photos of the 19 and 17 litre tanks posted on the website many years ago by Andy I believe are a 19 litre and a mid run 17 litre.
If you have a 17 litre tank with an early petcock then chances are you have amid run 17 litre tank. What I would do to see the underside of that early VIN bike currently being auctioned on eBay
Oh! While I'm posting I totally agree with the comments made by Steve re Ujeni and his post. I have said this previously, we list the various VINs where part changes occur as a "guide only" Members have been asked to report their findings as and when they are found so we can change the VIN cut offs as required. The information is not "wrong" at the time rather it is "what we know". Can I also say that the contributions made by the restorers during their works, especially Mark and Steve has contributed immensely to our knowledge base. If only I knew years ago what we know now I would have a store of early parts that would be to die for :o
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KP, can you tell mid run 17 or not from the underside view picture of the tank on the 7xx bike on ebay ? or, too difficult to discern from only visualizing a picture.... ?
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OK I downloaded a free app to edit the photo (not a bad app either) I won't go into further dialogue as the photo and tags say what needs to be identified. Chris are there any further features I've missed
Steve, I bet there are a lot of later VIN restorations out there that have these mid run tanks and the owners probably don't even know it
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Thanks KP. Great info. Would the installed petcock height look any different than the 2 we have currently identified?
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html)
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Based on what KP has identified this appears to be a mid run tank to me. ???
I have also requested some better detailed images of the 7xx tank from the owner, Scott.
BTW Mark B, this is from 576. We have conformed re Steve's findings on 2157, 576 would appear to be a mid run tank. :)
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Wayne, the "Technical and Distinctions" section on the new site looks fantastic. You're doing a mighty fine job of putting those pictures with the vin break points and part numbers. It's what we always hoped to see !!!! It may be noteworthy of indicating parts such as the smooth oil lines, early short neck fuel taps, master cylinders without fill lines, 11 mm mirror stems (amongst others) do not have part numbers. That is, Honda did not differentiate the later parts by assigning them parts numbers to distinguish/differentiate them from the early parts. The part numbers for early and late production parts remained the same.
Also, i would like to say to any site lurking sandcast owners and all sandcast members.... Especially those who have their bikes apart. PLEASE send Wayne your pictures distinguishing early parts from late parts.
Wayne is engaged in some mighty tedious and time intensive work.
Now is the time to submit pictures with the vin of the pictured part.
I'm sure Wayne is probably getting tired of me, but we are lucky to have him taking the site to this new level.
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5. no leveling ring on master cylinder reservoir 1-2435 Is the 26mm high mirror boss vs the late 31mm high an separate distinction?
Wayne, i would say this is two distinguishing characteristics on the same part. That part being the early master cylinder has no leveling ring and a 31 mm boss.
Later m.cyls have 26 mm boss and a leveling ring.
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Based on what KP has identified this appears to be a mid run tank to me. ???
I have also requested some better detailed images of the 7xx tank from the owner, Scott.
Wayne, i checked (felt with my hand) the area where fuel tap fits to tank on 2157's tank. The tank does not have this distinctively raised area. And the tap is not the early type. So, 2157 has the later type tank as per above KP's notes.
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Thanks Steve. I am going to be looking for lots of images as I go through the list. Some I can find, some I can't so yes, please follow this thread and contribute where you can.
Speaking of, can someone lay a nice sandcast head with a diecast head as KP has done here and do a larger, clear, clear high resolution image for me. I'll add the information as KP did.
email to sandcast750@gmail.com
Steve I'll correct the oil line area re part numbers. I knew there were no part number changes. I get a bit weary staring into the tables, cutting, pasting, formatting and searching. ;) Please, if anyone sees anything that's not right, can be improved or whatever, bring it to my attention.
This is what I need a new picture of. Don't add the text etc. I'll do that. Even if anyone has a nice clean sandcast head ready that would be great. Ditto for diecast. I can always put the two images together.
Thanks!
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Based on what KP has identified this appears to be a mid run tank to me. ???
I have also requested some better detailed images of the 7xx tank from the owner, Scott.
Wayne, i checked (felt with my hand) the area where fuel tap fits to tank on 2157's tank. The tank does not have this distinctively raised area. And the tap is not the early type. So, 2157 has the later type tank as per above KP's notes.
That's great information Steve! I have enough now to put it together. Guess what Mark....that image I posted of the petcock pad is from 576. You have a mid run tank. Don't let KP steal that from you! ;)
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Thanks Steve. I am going to be looking for lots of images as I go through the list. Some I can find, some I can't so yes, please follow this thread and contribute where you can.
Speaking of, can someone lay a nice sandcast head with a diecast head as KP has done here and do a larger, clear, clear high resolution image for me. I'll add the information as KP did.
email to sandcast750@gmail.com
Steve I'll correct the oil line area re part numbers. I knew there were no part number changes. I get a bit weary staring into the tables, cutting, pasting, formatting and searching. ;) Please, if anyone sees anything that's not right, can be improved or whatever, bring it to my attention.
This is what I need a new picture of. Don't add the text etc. I'll do that. Even if anyone has a nice clean sandcast head ready that would be great. Ditto for diecast. I can always put the two images together.
Thanks!
Wayne i will help when i have info to contribute. I'm encouraging others to help out too. GREAT WORK.
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Thanks KP. Great info. Would the installed petcock height look any different than the 2 we have currently identified?
Hi Wayne I'm not sure as I don't know what tanks these are fitted to But the top photo looks correct for a 19 litre/mid-run 17 litre You can clearly see the differences in height
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Based on what KP has identified this appears to be a mid run tank to me. ???
I have also requested some better detailed images of the 7xx tank from the owner, Scott.
BTW Mark B, this is from 576. We have conformed re Steve's findings on 2157, 576 would appear to be a mid run tank. :)
Yep Wayne A great shot of a mid-run tank petcock pad
The Yamiya copy wrinkle tank is based on the mid-run 17 litre as the pad is well defined
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Guess what Mark....that image I posted of the petcock pad is from 576. You have a mid run tank. Don't let KP steal that from you! ;)
Thanks for the heads-up. ;) Nice work on the site.
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I have a good image of a 19L and a "mid 17L" and what I believe is the later "flat petcock pad" 17L KP described. Once you folks confirm I'm correct on the blue tank as being a late 17L I'll get them added to the technical section.
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At the bottom of this page on the current site it states:
"28" Cap with 6mm brass adjuster - These caps were recalled by honda due to sticking
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Tanks (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Tanks)
Should it not say:
"28" Cap with 5mm brass adjuster - These caps were recalled by honda due to sticking
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Wayne, the three tanks cover the wrinkle family. What may be a suggestion is to post a Yamiya tank so confusion does not occur. This is going to be a problem in years to come in that Yamiya parts will be passed of as original. In fact it has already happened in other parts of the world
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With the yamiya wrinkle tanks, they must be good to be able to pass off as Honda, i have a copy candy ruby red tank non wrinkle, it is every bit as good as honda to my eyes ,
pete
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Gerard is right. Yamiya is still not 100% copy of Honda. But also as KP had said, some sellers are taking Yamiya parts as originals. This could make a risk at some purchaces, if you don´t see the bike personaly. I think that 80% of buyers are not able to recognized reproduction parts.
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Thank you for your input and confirmation that I have the Honda wrinkle tank family covered. I'm a bit reluctant about adding Yamiya or any other aftermarket parts to the site for comparison sake. If it becomes a topic in the bulletin board that's one thing but to add them into the technical area of our site is another. Where do we stop? Tanks, switches, fasteners and so on?
I think it's best to keep the technical area of the site pure, with part numbers, vin break points and images of the original Honda parts as we know them. That's just my humble opinion.
Just on another note, it never ceases to amaze me how many running production changes were made on these machines and for what reasons. We know why the 19L tank was changed. They bring out the second design (mid run) with carb reliefs yet use an almost identical mounting pad footprint for the petcock. Then the long petcock comes along and they change the mounting pad footprint on the tank. Why not just use the longer petcock on the mid run tank? Why the need to make yet a 3rd stamping change? Maybe they found the longer petcock extended down too far and didn't look right on the mid run tank? Is there even a difference in the gap with one installed?
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Gerard
You didn't have to remove your post. I was only suggesting I didn't think it was best to put aftermarket parts here:
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html)
I'm fine with discussing and making comparisons on the bulletin board. :)
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Wayne: I would also like to see only original parts. Sometimes as you said these are enough.
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At the bottom of this page on the current site it states:
"28" Cap with 6mm brass adjuster - These caps were recalled by honda due to sticking
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Tanks (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Tanks)
Should it not say:
"28" Cap with 5mm brass adjuster - These caps were recalled by honda due to sticking
yes, 5 mm adjuster
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Thank you for your input and confirmation that I have the Honda wrinkle tank family covered. I'm a bit reluctant about adding Yamiya or any other aftermarket parts to the site for comparison sake. If it becomes a topic in the bulletin board that's one thing but to add them into the technical area of our site is another. Where do we stop? Tanks, switches, fasteners and so on?
I think it's best to keep the technical area of the site pure, with part numbers, vin break points and images of the original Honda parts as we know them. That's just my humble opinion.
Just on another note, it never ceases to amaze me how many running production changes were made on these machines and for what reasons. We know why the 19L tank was changed. They bring out the second design (mid run) with carb reliefs yet use an almost identical mounting pad footprint for the petcock. Then the long petcock comes along and they change the mounting pad footprint on the tank. Why not just use the longer petcock on the mid run tank? Why the need to make yet a 3rd stamping change? Maybe they found the longer petcock extended down too far and didn't look right on the mid run tank? Is there even a difference in the gap with one installed?
so after finishing this post, i realized it's a long one, so i ask those interested to please read through the whole darn thing.
i've never seen a yamiya body set. from what i'm reading, sounds like they're excellent copies, but distinguishable from original. unfortunately, I can't seem to find Gerard's post (it sounds like there is/was a post by Gerard that elicited Wayne's response.)
Certainly, if Yamiya parts have distinguishing characteristics from original parts, i do believe we need to know the differences from repro and original parts. So, it would be nice to have a way to keep record of these differences. Assuming there are differences between repro parts and original parts and no one knows it, then it makes all the later vins more liable to suspicion these machines are not built from original parts. The scenarios are numerous. Deceitful sellers. Pissed off purchasers. Possible, but unlikely significant devaluation of certain vin range values.
anyway.... SOOC's duty is to record all the characteristics of these machines as they came from the factory. It sounds like it's probably our duty to include reproduction parts. However, i agree with Wayne, to keep the technical site "pure." That is, reference to Honda oem parts only. And Honda oem parts is another issue, because parts manufactured in 1969 do not always look like parts manufactured in 1977 or 1983 or 1997, etc, etc. This creates another issue for the restorer as well as Wayne. if the restorer wants to make his restoration exactly original, then does he install a Honda oem part made in 1977 or 1997 that does not look exactly like the 1969 manufacture part ? How does Wayne obtain, much less identify differences in appearance between a 1969 built part and a 1977 built part ?
On the other hand..... Gerard has a good point, even though unfortunately i can't seem to find what he wrote. I assume Gerard's point is that because there are more and more repro parts available, we need to record and catalog these parts for comparison to Honda oem parts. Thinking out loud. Perhaps we need a category on the bulletin board where people can write in their findings, post pictures, differentiating Honda oem from repro parts. Then, as the list grows, we could consider adding a new section in the website as to repro parts. and perhaps also include differences between early production oem Honda parts and later production oem Honda parts.
As it stands, i appreciate and support Gerard's passion for preservation of correctness. And i very much empathize with what Wayne is going through, taking this massive project on. I know for a fact he has sat for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours in front of his computer monitor studying, organizing and reorganizing all the data he is faced with. Really an overwhelming job, even for someone with Wayne's prowess at the keyboard. That's only one reason why i turned over the website to someone who knows how to use a computer.
What everyone enjoys reading in this forum is obvious. Not the work of one enthusiast. NOR IS THE CONTENTS OF THE WEBSITE THE WORK OF ONE ENTHUSIAST. it's real easy to be an armchair team captain and say how things should be. It's another thing to be sitting in Wayne's chair.
So...... please, please, please, please..... if sandcast 750's truly are your heartfelt passion, please, please, please contribute what you know. as i've said numerous times in the past, this website is only as good as what is contributed. I'm sure Wayne would have no problem making a forum category for people to write in their findings on repro parts. That way, with a forum category, we could keep all our findings in one place. and as the list grows, decide what may need to be done with the list.
Right now, Wayne's got a big enough job doing what he is doing. I know, because i once sat in his chair. So, give Wayne your support. He needs more pictures of parts than are currently in the old website. Write in and send pictures of what you have. post pictures. We're friends here. We're fellow enthusiasts here. Someday, with life's good grace, we may meet face to face, shake hands and clap each other on the back.
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Wayne, as far as wondering why the differences, for example, in the gas tank bottom pans..... no one has the answer. we can only surmise. i wold guess it has to do with what wasn't working. both from both machine and production operations standpoints, for example, carb cables fouling tank, so the tank pan needed more room. from production standpoint, maybe a stamping die did not release as cleanly so changes were made in the die. and a third consideration was the guys who designed the tanks and the guys who designed the stamping dies. and the communication that went on or didn't happen between design and manufacturing. Lots we'll probably never know. We restorers think about thngs that was no consideration for the factory.
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Thank you everyone for your input and contribution thus far. I had a small setback, my new computer let me down and it took a day or so to get the problems resolved. Windows 8.1 is kind of like Windows ME. It should never have been released! ;)
Anyway, some of you have emailed some great pic's and information. Thank you! Here's and example of exactly the kind of stuff I'll be looking for as we work through the technical section and distinctions. Gerard has provided images with descriptions, but as well the untouched images so I can format, add the descriptions etc. as I see fit. Thank you Gerard. He has also provided some French Literature for the library.
Chris Noel has provided some good carb detail images and I have received pic's etc. from others as well. :)
Again, thank you. You guys are the subject matter experts. I'm just trying to compile all this information in a format that makes sense, even to the laymen so everyone can learn from our site.
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More on gas tanks!!
Been out in the sheds today looking at my various wrinkle tanks, and believe there is a FOURTH factory variant as compared to the three identified above...
19 litre with short petcock
17 litre with short petcock, as shown above (came on #1120). Parts lists suggest a tank change at 1001938 for which there is also a service bulletin describing the change in height of the "pad" on which the petcock is mounted. On this first variant of the 17 litre tank, the "pad" is pretty well level with the bottom welded seam / edge of the tank (no trims fitted). It seems possible (to me) that the short petcock could also have been changed at the same time as the tank change. Need owner observations of bikes with VIN after 1120, up to at least 1938 or even later to support this.
17 litre with reduced height "pad" for petcock, and long petcock, as pictured above (I believe one of these to be on #8135, from memory - it's full of gas and on the bike which is at the back of the shed so can't look underneath, only see the wrinkles through the filler neck.
The pictures above show the above tanks all to have side wrinkles in the tunnel as well as the ones visible through the neck.
I have a further wrinkle tank which does NOT have the side wrinkles in the tunnel, and is generally more rounded in the way the underside was pressed. Origins of this tank are unknown, except that it is definitely original, not a Yamiya repro. When I can find the camera lead, I'll post a picture. The pad on which the petcok sits is pretty well level with the bottom of the tank, therefore maybe 3/4 mm higher than the bottom welded seam.
Cheers - Chris R.
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I had a bit of spare time today and after reading the post by Chris I thought I would have a look at my tanks and take some good shots of mid-run and late-run tanks. I won't go into the details but on one of the photos you should note that the rear tunnel wrinkles are further forward than the late-run tank There are other subtle differences between these pressings but for all intents; the petcock pad is the key difference
Chris, last picture is a late-run side which shows no wrinkles, whereas my mid-run has clearly defined wrinkles. That's a good catch you've identified.
Anyway here are the pictures and Wayne, feel free to use what you wish
The mid-run tank is to the right in picture 1 and to the left in pictures 2,3 & 6
KP
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More
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Last one. Chris here is the no wrinkle side
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All these small insignificant details in 1969 are today very very interesting!!
There should be several manufacturers in subcontracts for the manufacture of the wrinkle gas tank?? ???
Who can give other explanations?
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All these small insignificant details in 1969 are today very very interesting!!
There should be several manufacturers in subcontracts for the manufacture of the wrinkle gas tank?? ???
Who can give other explanations?
Perhaps the Japanese.
My personal assumption, in the case of 17L tank differences, the bottom pans of the tanks were a result of tooling changes.
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Yes Steve, it's a good assumption...
But why have they not made the effort to delete these not very pretty wrinkles when you open the fuel tank when they did new matrices?
You would think that they were necessary and even planned by the Honda factory engineers to reduce and absorb the deformation of the sheet metal during stamping??
A problem solved maybe after by a different sheet thickness?
Mark, shells without wrinkles have different weights who are wrinkled?
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KP. Thank you for taking the time to provide some additional great pictures and details. I'll sift through it hopefully today and hopefully closeout the fuel tank area and then we can move on to the Fuel Tank Caps. I don't know if we have learned any more since the info was written on the current web page: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm)
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I have cropped a couple of your images KP and got them pointing in the same direction for comparison purposes. Let me know if I missed anything that should be noted. I'll also do am image noting the absence of wrinkles in the side of the late tank.
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And lastly the tunnel comparison between a "mid run" and late production tank. I'll update the web page as soon as I have a green light on that last 2 posts, images. :)
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My view would be that the late (fourth type) wrinkle tank is likely to be from a die-cast VIN, a result of the tooling being refined as production progressed.
Given the rate at which a power press can turn out pressings such as this, there would only ever have needed to be one tool in use at any one time. As the tooling wore and was re-furbed or replaced, it most likely evolved to produce smoother (better) pressings, which would in turn reduce the force required by the press, and the subsequent rate of wear of the tooling.
Once upon a time , it was easy - flip the filler cap and check for wrinkles. Now we are faced with four possible versions of the wrinkle tank + the Yamiya version. The restorers dilema!
Chris R.
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My view would be that the late (fourth type) wrinkle tank is likely to be from a die-cast VIN, a result of the tooling being refined as production progressed.
Given the rate at which a power press can turn out pressings such as this, there would only ever have needed to be one tool in use at any one time. As the tooling wore and was re-furbed or replaced, it most likely evolved to produce smoother (better) pressings, which would in turn reduce the force required by the press, and the subsequent rate of wear of the tooling.
Once upon a time , it was easy - flip the filler cap and check for wrinkles. Now we are faced with four possible versions of the wrinkle tank + the Yamiya version. The restorers dilema!
Chris R.
So my dilemma. Do I add the 4th version to our web page? IMHO the Technical and distinction's area of our site is to identify and distinguish between parts that were used in the various production range of the "sandcast" CB750. I'll use the same argument here as I did with the Yamiya tank earlier in this thread. Where do we stop in putting up different tanks, or tank that didn't come on a sandcast machine? Let the debate begin on version 4. :)
Having said that, the information is valuable for phase 2 down the road. The dedicated K0 part of the site. ;)
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Now we are faced with four possible versions of the wrinkle tank + the Yamiya version. The restorers dilema!
Chris R.
Just a digression...
Must be added to version Yamiya yet another version of copy for the Wrinkle Gas Tank :o perhaps more "dangerous" than the version from Yamiya...
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Yes Steve, it's a good assumption...
But why have they not made the effort to delete these not very pretty wrinkles when you open the fuel tank when they did new matrices?
You would think that they were necessary and even planned by the Honda factory engineers to reduce and absorb the deformation of the sheet metal during stamping??
A problem solved maybe after by a different sheet thickness?
Mark, shells without wrinkles have different weights who are wrinkled?
I doubt non-visible wrinkles were important to mass unit production. Proper fitting tank was important. Your, point on gauge of sheet metal used is a possible reason the wrinkles changed or disappeared.
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My argument to include version 4 of the wrinkle tank would be to ensure that those that pursue 100% perfection know there is a wrinkle tank version which is not correct for sandcast machines.
I acquired this tank at a very favourable price with the intention of putting it on #5298 (which in my 24 years or ownership has never had a wrinkle tank), not realising it to be incorrect to this VIN. That said, I am pleased to have it and will fit it to #5298 which is a long term rider, and will from now on at least pass the filler cap inspection test!
Cheers - Chris
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I have a question
Why didn't the earlier Honda including the CB450 tanks have wrinkles ???
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They took them out of the dryer right way. ::) ;) Oh wait, is this a trick question?
Sorry KP, that's a helluva good question.
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They took them out of the dryer right way. ::) ;) Oh wait, is this a trick question?
Sorry KP, that's a helluva good question.
Hey Mark, I like your thinking ;D
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Actually, the 1965-67 Honda CB450 K0, AKA the Black Bomber had wrinkles in the back of the tank.
I own five and know them well.
Duane
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Oops, bad picture, let me try this again.
Hope this one loads correctly.
DW
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Thanks for that Duane. I was referring more to the 69 CB450 tank. I had an early NOS one some years back and it certainly didn't have wrinkles. But then I've asked the question to get the exact feedback you have just provided. It is interesting to note that the tanks from later years weighed less
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I would like to move along with the stuff that currently exists on our site as far as contents and images. There we be a lot of "distinctions" to add at a later date. :)
Next up is the fuel tank caps currently shown on this page of the site: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Fuel (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Fuel)
Gerard has sent along yet another iteration of a cap underside. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? KP, since writing the area on fuel caps has there been any revelations or further findings? For the purpose of the site we want to clearly show caps that came from "nineteener", mid run and late production tanks I would think...IF we can identify them.
Gerard sent the cap on the right in the black area.
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I have no idea which cap came off what but none came off an early 19 or mid run 17 Those tanks may have the same but I have no idea on it I will check my 19 litre and see what it has
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I have no idea which cap came off what but none came off an early 19 or mid run 17 Those tanks may have the same but I have no idea on it I will check my 19 litre and see what it has
That will be interesting to see what cap you have, KP. I'll compare your findings to the cap that came on my nineteener. See if they are the same.
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I know Mark has a cap from a mid run. I only took a pic of the top, not the underside when I disassembled it.
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Guys
Here are 2 shots of the cap on my 19 litre. The cap is similar but certainly different to the middle cap in the picture with 3 caps shown So to me we now have a 5th cap.
Be interested to see what Steve has and also the mid run from Mark.
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Wayne,
I found this color photos of the "Late prototype"
I have not seen him in the topic "Machines Types"...
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Very nice. The picture originated from somewhere and was given to someone and eventually makes it to the internet. We'd know alot more if we could just learn a little. Fascinating.
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I've seen that picture somewhere before on another site. I think there was also some pictures of the factories etc. on the same site. I had it bookmarked for future reference on my old computer but it crashed. Gerard can you tell us where you got it?
Just as a side note: I'm getting quite a bit of email with pictures, references etc. If I don't get back to you right away please, don't be offended. It's tedious work to go through the existing site and get the current information in the new format. Once done, we will expand on that with new information and images. :)
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Just as a side note: I'm getting quite a bit of email with pictures, references etc. If I don't get back to you right away please, don't be offended. It's tedious work to go through the existing site and get the current information in the new format. Once done, we will expand on that with new information and images. :)
[/quote]
Wayne, do not worry, I understand very well that this is not easy.. ;)
Several years I have this picture in my computer, but honestly I don't know where I found it, but it seems to me that it was on a french site, I tried from the found but I promise you nothing..
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The left side picture can be found in a book published by Haynes in the UK, "Honda CB750" by Mick Duckworth. It appears to be credited to Bob Hansen, presumably sent to him by the factory in 1968 during prototype development.
The right side shot I have never seen before, but is presumably from the same set of pictures. I wonder if there were others.....
Cheers - Chris R.
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Rear of the seat do look different on the right hand side photo!
Erling.
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Not the same time photos were taken and maybe different bikes. Tyres are different, plus reflector missing on fork ears, horn, tank cap and maybe some other items Bit hard to see in the pics but I think the exhaust shields maybe missing
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Yes, two slightly different Prototype.. Where then, the same proto with the evolution? Not impossible...
But that became these little raw diamonds? They foolishly dismantle?
Why do we never have the necessary hindsight to avoid it?.. Damn and shit!! >:(
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Attached is a good quality picture of a prototype, with many of the features of first picture, notice the side cover. I have not seen this variation of the 750 side cover before. Carburetors seem the same as other type as other two pictures.
DW
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Great stuff! I'll have to weed through this stuff at a later date once the new format is "live" and we can certainly enhance / compliment the content currently on the site.
OK, I have moved any content from the existing site, over to the new format for Frame Group F9, Fuel tank and Petcock. Please review what we had here:
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm)
And the new format for Group F9, Fuel tank and Petcock.
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html)
Let me know if you find any errors or if I'm telling lies. I kinda make sh*t up as I go! ;)
If we are good to go with Group F9 I would like to move to F11, Air Cleaner Case - Element.
I don't think we discovered anything new on air boxes. 2 - hole no reliefs. 2 - hole with reliefs and the later 3 hole with reliefs. I'm going to try and find some pictures that aren't already marked up to work with. If anyone has any of these air boxes off and painted up pretty, some pictures of the top half, straight down from both outside and inside would be great! email: sandcast750@gmail.com
Thanks!
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Wayne, you are dy-no-mite ;D ;D ;D ;D
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This first picture, I think that it is very definitely the Prototype Blue of pre-production being assembled that the "Big Boss" has sold on Ebay..??
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Bob Jameson used those pictures in his 2009 VMD presentation.
Bob stated the first picture is the assembly of the first production CB750-1000001. The men around the machine are the engineers responsible for the development of the CB750. The are not factory workers. The evidence this is a production machine: the black plastic sub-fender extends all the way back to rear upper frame loop that the seat rests on. The late pre-prod steel fender extended all the way to and was attached with behind battery box with two bolts.
The second picture is the banked test track of Saitama. The riders could run the machine wide open at top speed around the entire track. Bob said it was a "frightening experience."
Interesting aside: the Blue-Green late pre-prod bike CB750-2113, had no provision for tray for tool kit. As seen in pictures below, one can also see how rear fender attaches to frame, unlike production bike shown in pictures. Those two pictures of 2113 are credited to Vic World.
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Steve really has the eyes of a hawk! 👍👍👍👍👍
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Yes, you have Eagle eyes of Mercantour!!
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Wayne, you are dy-no-mite ;D ;D ;D ;D
lol Thanks Steve. I'm just trying really hard to stay occupied this winter. I have 2 projects in the garage I should be working on but I'm not up to it from a health standpoint. I'm determined to get the site transitioned over.... before spring! :o
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OK, onto air boxes. This is the description of air boxes currently on our site. I'll wordsmith it and trim down the verbiage a bit.
SANDCAST AIRCLEANERS
For those that didn’t know, there are in fact three types of “Sandcast” air cleaner box which I have simply referred
to as the 2 hole and the 3 hole air cleaner box. This is simply stated; early sandcast air boxes are held on to the frame by a bracket
which attaches to the air box top by 2 fixing points, whereas the later type has 3 fixing points. The 2 hole air box also has 2 variations
(identified by Chris Rushton). The variation is that very early 2 hole air boxes have no frame indents and this is easily seen in the
red air box (bottom) picture. No one can say with authority at what VIN these changes were made.
In relation to the 3 hole fixing arrangement, this modification was carried over into later production years and remained on all future
SOHC CB 750 models. Yeah, yeah I hear the more knowledgeable say. But how many of us know that there are other significant
differences between the three air boxes. Yes indeedie
Unless you have had them side by side or possess an early and later type, you’ve probably thought that the bracket was
the only difference. Here are pictures of all air box types (tops only) which show the differences. I haven’t been able
to identify any differences with the bottom halves. Another difference is the brackets themselves. The 2 hole is not a cut
down 3 hole bracket, rather, there are subtle differences in the overall dimensions of each type. With a bit of work you could alter a 3
hole to match a 2 hole if you are stuck for an original. There may have been other variations with these early type air cleaner boxes
(as Chris discovered), but this is what we know to date. If you have discovered other differences please add to this contribution. Cheers KP
The way I see it we have 3 air cleaner designs.
Early Production 2 - Hole - No relief's
Mid Production 2 - Hole - With relief's
Late Production 3 - Hole - With relief's
As well KP has identified a difference in the stays (brackets) which I will add to the page as items 3 and 4 under F-11
I could use some fresh pictures to work with if anyone has any of these air boxes off a bike. Taken as shown here, from top side and underside, straight down would be perfect. I need pic's of al 3 iterations.
If there's more we have leaned let me know and I'll add the information.
The second picture is what I would call a "Mid Production - 2 - Hole - With Relief's" Correct me if my way of thinking is warped. ;)
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I put together descriptions of the air box features. Have a look and let me know if I missed anything or if changes should be made.
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html)
Still looking for pic's of air boxes as shown above. All 3 iterations inside and top side.
sandcast750@gmail.com
Thanks!
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As much as I hated to, I used an early production repop 2 hole box for illustrative purposes on the page. If anyone emails me originals I'll change them.
I need to find pic's of the mid run 2 hole case with indents and a late 3 hole, top and inside for illustrative purposes. Anyone? Have a look at the page to get an idea of the angles I'm after. Thanks.
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html)
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Completed the section with content we have on the exiting site under this page:
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Airbox (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm#Airbox)
In the new format the Air case section looks like this:
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html)
Frame Group F11 - Air Cleaner - Case - Element
2 - CASE, COMP - air cleaner
Have a look at let me know if I made any errors, if there are any problems, view problems etc.
Next I want to move onto the Carb's as that content exists on our current site. I have lots of good images but i'm going to need help with the script. I'll post what I have soon.
Thank you to those contributing to this changeover.
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Wayne, as usual, you are doing fantastic work. I believe it is best for me to defer to KP, Chris and Mark on the airbox topic. they have all seen these or some of these original airboxes. i have not. i live vicariously through SOOC.
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Thanks Steve. Like I said I just took information the way I interpreted it and put it in the new format. I'll have a look at the distinctions list to see if vin breakpoints are there for the various cover designs. Errors can be changed easily if brought to my attention.
On to the carbs. Not much verbiage on the existing site. Anyone wanna take a shot at a quick summary / overview of carbs for the sandcast? I'll wordsmith it, add images etc.
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I have an original 2-hole, no recess airbox. Unfortunately it is out for painting right now. When I get it back I can supply photos if you like. BTW it came off 1553.
Mark
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Hi Wayne, going into "Production Models" on the website, under "Carburetor I-II (Keihin)" and "Carburetor III-IV (Keihin)" there is brake hose information....... !? About the only thing i can say about that is, years ago, i loaded all the info i knew into the Engine Group and Chris loaded all the information he knew in the Frame group.
I do see in "Tech/Restoration Support" i have pics of my 232's carbs as seen in fuel system. Not alot of info there. unfortunately, my carbs are not able to in my hand for inspection because they are on the bike. 232's carbs would be the same as any other early type carbs on earlier vins.
The one distinguishing feature is the brass with tubes pressed in and parallel with the float bowl joint surface.
Looking in "Distinctions" in DB, #12, states 66 mm choke arm up through vin 1120, then 52 mm thereafter. One of the problems as i was compiling this Distinctions list was that, while i had 232's parts in my hand, 4363 was already an assembled machine. So i was not inclined ot dismantle 4363 to examine and compare parts for differences. That's where Vic has truly become the "expert" because he has seen so many of these different range vins separately and together at the same time. That's why i have relied on the observations of the members of SOOC to write in what they find, so we can all benefit through shared observations.
So, if other members have observations they can share between differences in parts, that's helpful. and very much needed.
And in Mark's meticulous documentation on #97, i am assuming there are some differences distinctions as well as other member's builds that have not made it into the 88 Distinctions list which is now probably well over 100 distinctions.
Wayne, you've taken on a monumental job producing stellar results. Bo should be proud his row of machines will grace SOOC's introductory web page. i was visiting with Vic the other evening, he sends his highest compliments to what you are doing as well as his regrets he can't be involved. He truly supports the club, but on the other hand, he is kept very busy with work.
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Hi Wayne, going into "Production Models" on the website, under "Carburetor I-II (Keihin)" and "Carburetor III-IV (Keihin)" there is brake hose information....... !?
I noticed that as well quite some time ago. Oh well..onward and upward. :)
Chris Noel was kind enough to send me pic's of a couple of carb bodies. I'll probably use these as the first slides to identify a correct carb for a "sandcast" bike.
First image is a correct sandcast body.
Second a later "2 Hump" non sandcast body.
Other things to document are the differences in choke arm length (have pic's already) , the bras tubes as Steve identified, 5mm cables, 28 Carb tops(have pic's). What am I missing?
And Mark, thank you. I'll take you up on the newly painted early 2 hole air box cover.
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I'm curious to know date, when we were given the non 28 carb tops?
VIN for introducing on production models? Die cast I think.
I have a piece of paper with F-VIN machine written and hand stamped E-VIN.
Could it be from package for that occasion?
Erling.
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I'm curious to know date, when we were given the non 28 carb tops?
VIN for introducing on production models? Die cast I think.
I have a piece of paper with F-VIN machine written and hand stamped E-VIN.
Could it be from package for that occasion?
Erling.
Honda Service bulletin #15, 3/16/70, Frame 1 through frame 17342 were to have been replaced with replacement throttle valve and cable kit.
if i recall correctly, a 17xxx bike would have come out sometime late December 69 or sometime January 1970.
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I noticed I had made a couple of errors on the pre-production machines page. Also, I made updates such as the recent sale of 2113. Please have a look and see if you notice any errors or omissions and we'll move on. We are VERY close to changing over to the new format! :)
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/late_pre_production.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/late_pre_production.html)
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Wayne, super job. was kind of fun reading through the stuff i wrote 2004, not even knowing of 2113's existence for another 2 years and then surmising early pre-prod series were designated 1xxx.... We've learned more since. Damn. i was 52 then ! Everything remains accurate as i know it. Chris may have some comments on the 2110 vin.
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2110 has now been with the same UK owner for 30 years, and remains part restored. I am fortunate to know the owner, and see the bike reasonably often. Unfortunately, what more I know of it is not mine to share.
I do still have its original master cylinder, rigid steel brake pipe and the splitter which had been removed from 2110 in 1969, and do still hope one day to be able to re-unite it with the bike.
Great work Wayne, thanks.
Chris R.
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Thanks Chris. Hopefully in the future we can see and learn more about this bike.
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Wayne,
You are doing an awesome job with all these website changes.
Great work!
Duane
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I want to add a couple of more pictures. Can anyone clarify what category these bikes should fall into to? On our old site they are both on the "Early Pre-Production" page.
The caption below the white bike says it's "an early and unpainted prototype machine. Saitama 1969. Spring had not come so far in Japan some snow still remained"
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com//images/142-4218_IMG.JPG)
It looks more like an early unpainted Pre-Production machine to me. ???
The second bike which is also on our "Early Pre-Production" page appears to be more a prototype. Different exhaust etc. I'm guessing Early Prototype.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com//images/grey1a.jpg)
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There's been alot of discussion about the macines in these 2 photos. Talking with Bob Jameson at the 2009 40th, conclusion swas both machines were test mules, both at different times and stages of development. The black bike earlier era, the white bike, later and moreobviously similar to the late pre-prod bikes. Bob said there were numerous test mules at different stages of development and testing.
The white bike gives more clues as to development stage than black bike.
White bike appears similar if not same as late pre-prod.
Black bike is blacked out to confuse snoopy press. What one can visualize on black bike appears like early pre-prod....??
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i'm looking more closely at this white bike....... VERY INTERESTING. obviously white parts including ignition switch bracket.... suggestive of a factory test mule. even the tank badges are white.
this white bike could be an interim version between the late pre-prod and early production machines......
the reason i say that is that long choke arm made of round stock; that is early production distinction. late pre-prod bikes like 2113 had a stamped choke arm made from stamped flat stock.
However..... this white bike has a steel pipe leading from master cylinder like late pre-prod bike 2113. the alternator cover appears like 2113. seat appears flat like 2113.
But... the white bike clearly appears to be a mix of late pre-prod and early prod parts........ therefore, it is neither a late pre-prod nor an early production bike. strengthens my opinion this is a factory test mule.
What both black and white bikes have in common is the brown object on seat..... and they are blacked out or whited out....
wonder what the guy stooped over is looking at so intently ?
good stuff.
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Noticed many of the same things Steve, as well as later side covers and badging on the white bike. Good call on the choke arm. I was looking for anything to show that it wasn't just a white late pre - production.
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Noticed the exhaust heat shield on the white bike are cadmium plated with no black paint so they look silver like the other early test mule photos.
DW
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Blacked out bike has very interesting looking exhaust.
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Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who is contributing to improving our web site and also for the donations. We're getting there and we have lots of great new photo's and information we will be adding to the site once we are on the new format.
Hopefully I'll shake this little virus over the next few days and we can go back at moving information over into the new format. We're close! :)
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Here is a picture of the mule on the right side.
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Gerard, fantastic picture. I see "Motorcyclist" on picture. "Motorcyclist" is an American magazine, actually there were two magazines named motorcyclist. Is this cover of magazine ? If so, what month and year ?
AND..... this may not be the same machine as the other white machine. This machine has a rubber upper brake hose; not steel brake line.
the only other possibility would be the steel line was replaced with a rubber hose and other parts.........
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Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who is contributing to improving our web site and also for the donations. We're getting there and we have lots of great new photo's and information we will be adding to the site once we are on the new format.
Hopefully I'll shake this little virus over the next few days and we can go back at moving information over into the new format. We're close! :)
Wayne, super job. Simply super.
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Look at those beautiful fat exhaust clamps on the white mule!
DW
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Great picture. I sure would like to have a root around on those shelves!
Cheers - Chris r.
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Another interesting bike Cam cover is a real treat
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Gerard, fantastic picture. I see "Motorcyclist" on picture. "Motorcyclist" is an American magazine, actually there were two magazines named motorcyclist. Is this cover of magazine ? If so, what month and year ?
AND..... this may not be the same machine as the other white machine. This machine has a rubber upper brake hose; not steel brake line.
the only other possibility would be the steel line was replaced with a rubber hose and other parts.........
Hi
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/blogs/making-honda-cb750-king-motorcycles?image=1 (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/blogs/making-honda-cb750-king-motorcycles?image=1)
best regard
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A few images from a French magazine...
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I've been a bit quiet as of late however I am working fairly diligently at getting the technical information moved into the new format. Anything orange and underlined is an active link. Feel free to browse. Thank you to those still sending information and images. We'll get to it all eventually. The main goal right now is to get the existing content into the new format.
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html)
Thank you as well to those of you who have donated. It's very much appreciated.
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OK! All of the information currently on our old web site from the "Production Models" button has been moved over into the new format. I have also incorporated some of the images from the "Technical/Restoration Support button into these pages. Please have a look and let me know if you see any errors. It was a lot of eye blurring copying and re-formatting. :/
The plan for this area is to augment it with more images detailing the changes and "distinctions" as already shown on some of the pages such as the Air Cleaner - Case - Element page.
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html (http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_11.html)
Here's the main menu page for what will now be knows as the Technical - Restoration - Parts and "Distinctions" area.
Have a look around and let's make sure we clean up errors as we go.
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html)
Ongoing this section will be a work in progress adding details, images etc.
Thank you again for your interest in making our site the best that it can be.
Thank you as well to those of you who have donated. It's very much appreciated
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Hi Wayne!
Please tell me how to report Changes in the VIN-directory.
I´ve sold two of my sandcasts and would like to change owner of these bikes.
Out of that I´ve also bought Another sandcast to put into the directory.
Tanks in advance, Bo from Sweden.