Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kp on September 18, 2016, 08:06:17 pm
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Those of you that own/have owned/just know about,t the Z1 Kawasaki will be all to familiar with the extensive use of date coding on numerous parts. The importance of these codes to the Z1 restorer/collector/owner cannot be understated and has a significant impact on values. The types of codes vary from the simple year month code, the Showa date method (http://www.i18nguy.com/l10n/emperor-date.html (http://www.i18nguy.com/l10n/emperor-date.html)) and another obscure variation such as a day/month time period was also in use.
Within "our" group there is not a lot of information around date codes on sandcasts, their usage or the importance of having parts correspond to date of production line manufacture. We tend to relate certain parts to blocks of VIN/Frame numbers such as early bikes VIN's have certain part differences to later bike VIN's. Surprisingly, there are numerous date stamped parts on our sandcast bikes some of which are easily understood whilst many parts have less than clear date codes but they are date codes nonetheless. Some of the information provided during Mark's restoration was groundbreaking IMHO so we should add to those findings
I'm thinking that many stamped codes are not very well understood within our group and think maybe it's time we turned our attention to understanding and interpreting these codes. I can think of two examples of stamped codes which are certainly not understood by myself. The codes on Shocks and the disc code are the two I refer to. The Z1 codes on the shocks are a simple month/year code whilst their disc code is a Showa code (7=72, 8=73 etc)
This is my contribution to some discussion. There is one clear example of date coding that causes me a lot of confusion and is the dating used on side covers. My own view is that side cover date codes were not used on original production line fitment BUT I could just as easily be wrong in this view. Nevertheless, a side cover dated 3 70 would not be correct for a 1969 sandcast if it can be shown that date coded side covers were fitted during production.
So can I PLEASE ask for contribution to this topic. We sort of know about fuel tank dating as well as engine case dates but there is a lot more we hopefully can get info on so all contribution will add to our knowledge base. I would hope we can obtain some definitive answers/information.
Again I would ask for contributions to this discussion
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Good stuff, KP ! I edited my reply a bit.
Perhaps a reasonable starting point would be to list every part known to have a date code. And a list of parts who's codes don't appear obvious as date codes so perhaps we can figure out their relevance as time passes by.
i can look to see what is visible on 232. Unfortunately, it's been together since 2005, so being able to visualize some of the codes won't be possible. i remember seeing various stampings on various parts when i had 232 apart, regretfully I did not write them down, back then we did not know as much as we do now. Wow, that was almost 12 years ago....
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Stamped figures on 232 disc = Q 42 B
232's shocks were replaced whilst retaining original "7 spring" springs.
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i have a spare set of very clean original "7 spring" DeCarbon shocks stamped markings "4 H" followed by a Japanese character. these markings are on the outer aspect of the inside clevis of shock.
2157 has the very same stampings as per above. i deem 2157 chassis as a reliable example of a relatively unmolested Fvin.
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I'm thinking, like kawasaki the shocks are mixed dates. 4=69 and H=August. Has anyone got some codes of their original fitted shocks?
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I'm thinking, like kawasaki the shocks are mixed dates. 4=69 and H=August. Has anyone got some codes of their original fitted shocks?
Kerry, I doubt that "4" = 1969 on Kawasaki parts.
E.g. on a Kawasaki Z1 clutch lever holder you may find "4H" giving August 1974, or on a Tagasago Z1 rear rim "3E" saying May 1973.
(of course, there was no Z1 in 1969)
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That's the mark for the date of the shock absorbers? (Mark #97)
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i have a spare set of very clean original "7 spring" DeCarbon shocks stamped markings "4 H" followed by a Japanese character. these markings are on the outer aspect of the inside clevis of shock.
2157 has the very same stampings as per above. i deem 2157 chassis as a reliable example of a relatively unmolested Fvin.
Steve, It is possible to have a photo of shoks stamped markings?
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That japanese character on K0 shocks looks like a Katana sword symbol.
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I'm thinking, like kawasaki the shocks are mixed dates. 4=69 and H=August. Has anyone got some codes of their original fitted shocks?
I doubt that "4" = 1969 on Kawasaki parts.
E.g. on a Kawasaki Z1 clutch lever holder you may find "4H" giving August 1974, on Tagasago Z1 rear rim "3E" saying May 1973.
(of course, there was no Z1 in 1969)
I'm not referring to 4H being a Kawasaki part, rather I'm referring to Steve's shocks where he stated his CB750 shocks are marked 4 H. I suspect a 4 would be 69, the H could easily be July rather than August. As for Kawasaki Z1's. I do know about Z1 markings I own 2 x 1972 models (VIN 94 and VIN 743) and a 1973 model (VIN 9493) You are correct that 4 for Kawasaki can = 74 but can also equal 1969 for Kawasaki as H1's also are coded. In most cases with Honda I have found 4 is a Showa code and = 1969. Kawasaki Disc is Showa where 7 = 1972 and 8 =1973, The Kawasaki discs also have an Alpha code so the Honda shock referred to by Steve maybe also have a Showa year code and an alpha code. This is why the thread was commenced so we can more analyse what members can report.
Edit:I refer to 4 = 1969 or 7 = 1972 In many cases where a Showa code is used the first digit id dropped so 44 becomes 4 and 47 becomes 7 Sorry for any confusion Later codes are often seen as a double numeral after 49 i.e. 50 rather than 0
There is one issue with the Alpha codes used by Kawasaki. These alpha codes do not always follow the pattern of alpha A,B,C,D,E etc corresponding to the month cycle of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc Generally they do but not in all circumstances.
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In relation to the shock photo posted, generally the shock codes on 69 bikes is metal stamped and appears on the inner side of the bottom mount ie.: closest to the wheel. The shock letters/numbers in the photo look to be dot etch printed rather than stamped and is shown on the outer face of the bottom mount
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Kerry,
on my SC (# 1983 build date May 1969) the showa shocks are coded 4H (plus that "katana" symbol) as well.
I am pretty sure that those are the genuine shocks the bike came with so August would be too late.
I will have a look on the shocks of my diecast, still with the genuine showas, if they have 4H as well.
If this is this case, I would say 4H stands "four Honda" ;) ;)
OT:
Kerry, do you have an idea who made the Z1 shocks?
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i have a spare set of very clean original "7 spring" DeCarbon shocks stamped markings "4 H" followed by a Japanese character. these markings are on the outer aspect of the inside clevis of shock.
2157 has the very same stampings as per above. i deem 2157 chassis as a reliable example of a relatively unmolested Fvin.
Steve, It is possible to have a photo of shoks stamped markings?
Gerard, i'll get pic in next few days.
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Kerry,
on my SC (# 1983 build date May 1969) the showa shocks are coded 4H (plus that "katana" symbol) as well.
I am pretty sure that those are the genuine shocks the bike came with so August would be too late.
I will have a look on the shocks of my diecast, still with the genuine showas, if they have 4H as well.
If this is this case, I would say 4H stands "four Honda" ;) ;)
OT:
Kerry, do you have an idea who made the Z1 shocks?
Uli, if "H" stands for "Honda," then shall we expect ALL shocks fitted to Honda have "H" stamped on them ?
Do Kawasaki shocks have "K" stamped on them ? And Bridgestone shocks have "B.S." stamped on them ?
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I'm thinking, like kawasaki the shocks are mixed dates. 4=69 and H=August. Has anyone got some codes of their original fitted shocks?
Kerry, I doubt that "4" = 1969 on Kawasaki parts.
E.g. on a Kawasaki Z1 clutch lever holder you may find "4H" giving August 1974, or on a Tagasago Z1 rear rim "3E" saying May 1973.
(of course, there was no Z1 in 1969)
Uli, What do you believe the "4" stands for ?
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Uli - i believe your vin is currently all apart, correct ?
If so, then now would be a perfect time to make a list of every part you find stamped with numbers, letters or characters. And photograph these stamps on each part.
You would be doing a huge service to SOOC !
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"four Honda" .....That was a joke.
But.
If my diecast and my sandcast and yours have 4H on the showa shocks, what would that tell?
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Uli - the reason i ask you to make a list of stampings found on all the parts of your vin: then we canb use your vin as the basis of comparison to all other stampings we find on our vins.
to know what we talk about what we think, consistency must be established. if we have the stampings on each part on your bike, then we can compare and contrast stampings we find on parts of other parts from other vins.
if we do not begin identifying every stamped number, letter and character found on parts we have nothing to contrast or compare so we can establish a pattern of consistency.
Uli - i am sure you understand the importance of this and why we need you to find and photograph every stamping on all of your parts. You can make a very important contribution.
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"four Honda" .....That was a joke.
But.
If my diecast and my sandcast and yours have 4H on the showa shocks, what would that tell?
"IF".... ifs and buts were candies and nuts, wishes would be fishes and pigs would fly.
"IF" = "We don't know."
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Sandcast # 1983
Brake rotor: 5 14
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Sandcast # 1983
rear brake panel: 5 27
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Sandcast # 1983
Oil tank: 5 16
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i'll photo what i can off of 2157 and 232.
232's disc is stamped "Q 42 B" i have no reason to doubt the disc is original to 232 coming off the assembly line, the 232 chassis was very complete and unmolested when i took ownership.
Thanks Uli, if you have more, please keep the pics coming.
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Sandcast # 1983
rear shock: 4H plus character
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Uli, thank you very much for the pictures...;)
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I can't remember who makes the Z1 shock I'll try and do some research
I like the 4 H (Honda 4) reference ;D Seems that H is not a month code then
Have a look at my attached photos of some K0 shockies They have the 4 and what I initially thought was an "S" but could also be a "J"
Also note the 2 very different symbols on each shock Now these are pairs so the different symbols are different on each single pair Why is the $million ????
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Uli, Those are great photos contributions to this thread. One can presume that your bike has a collection of May 1969 dated parts. Anyone else have good records like these.
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i'll photo what i can off of 2157 and 232.
232's disc is stamped "Q 42 B" i have no reason to doubt the disc is original to 232 coming off the assembly line, the 232 chassis was very complete and unmolested when i took ownership.
Thanks Uli, if you have more, please keep the pics coming.
This is the item that has always had me intrigued. The Q and the B is of particular interest The 42 could be February 1969 maybe
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Uli, super contributions. now we have stamped characters to compare to what else is posted to establishes differences and consistency. THANK YOU !
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we really need someone who can interpret Japanese characters !
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here are pics of disc on 2157 and 232. it is night time here, so my lighting is poor.
the "Q" code is on 232 disc. the full code is Q 42 B. the "Q" looks like an "O" but it clearly has a hash mark in the 5 o'clock position of what looks like an "O"
the "N" code is on 2157 disc. the full code is N - 1651. you will note there appears an "x" under each "1"
my apologies for not more pics. 232 is a bit "buried." when i have a bit more time, in near future, i'll push 2157 into sunlight and look for more codes.
i should have documented all the stamped codes on both bikes when i had them apart, but, i did not.......... my bad :-X
so ! what do we speculate the date stamped on the disc of 2157 ?
and what date do we speculate stamped on disc of 232 ?
would be nice to hear from Sam Roberts and Chris Rushton. for that matter Keith Byers and Marty Kitner where ever they are hiding out !
another part with code stampings is the gas tank.
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i'll photo what i can off of 2157 and 232.
232's disc is stamped "Q 42 B" i have no reason to doubt the disc is original to 232 coming off the assembly line, the 232 chassis was very complete and unmolested when i took ownership.
Thanks Uli, if you have more, please keep the pics coming.
This is the item that has always had me intrigued. The Q and the B is of particular interest The 42 could be February 1969 maybe
if we use the Showan calendar dating system, the "4" certainly could represent a 9 and the 2 the 2nd month.
fwiw, "Q" is the 17th letter of the English alphabet. "O" is the 15th letter. "N" is the 14th letter.
in the not too distant future, 2157 will need a rear tire change, i can then look at the stamp on the brake backing plate.
for your entertainment, here are pics of 232 and 2157 when i took delivery of each bike.
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i cannot remember........ this is a bit off subject, did we ever do a month to month analysis list of where we believe vin breaks occurred for approximately each month ?
looking at the vin directory, we can sort of make an ASSUMPTION of vin numbers manufactured each month, beginning March through September....
crank case casting dates were one of the very first date codes we started talking about well over a decade ago........
E342 is the 1st case we have recorded with a code 4/6, frame 302.
E338 through E407 we have 3 date codes, 4/5, 6 & 7, frames 302, 374, 388.
E602 - E748 we have 2 date codes, both 4/15, frames 530 & 576.
onward from E748 through 7414, we have a few more date codes, not a whole lot more considering the approximately 500 vins we have on record. SAD, REALLY, in my not so humble opinion.
i guess the reason i am bringing this up, one could expect to see similar date stampings on the various chassis parts of these Fvin/Evin pairs. However, crank case date codes ONLY SOMEWHAT correlate to the manufacture date, that is, the date the Evin was paired with a Fvin on the assembly line. we DO know some of the crank case date codes are quite disparate from significantly higher numbered Fvins, so any assumptions we would make about what distinctions of any certain part found on any particular vin is a guess at best.
has anyone found what one could assume could be date code stampings on frames ? (i can't remember if we discussed this or found any...)
Again, thank you Uli, for taking pics of your stamped codes and posting them ;D ;D ;D ;D
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One could conclude that the numbers 1 have been crossed out with an X leaving 65
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I thought Chris Noel found frame date codes
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One could conclude that the numbers 1 have been crossed out with an X leaving 65
June 5th ?
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I thought Chris Noel found frame date codes
i cannot remember. seems someone mentioned frame date codes at some point in time. i cannot remember.
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Here tis
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,53.msg241.html#msg241 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,53.msg241.html#msg241)
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Here tis
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,53.msg241.html#msg241 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,53.msg241.html#msg241)
very interesting..... anyone else note stampings on their frames such as Chris documents ?
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it's not a chassis part, but..... here tis.....
a "24" ink stamped on the early "criss-cross" cam cover.
April 2 ? or February 4 ? i would say the date stamp is April 2.
Is it a valid assumption the factory was manufacturing production parts BEFORE the #1 Fvin rolled off the assembly line ?
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Code on VIN28 disc
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I'm starting to think the numbers are month day codes given the sequence emerging.
I still have no clue about the alpha stampings
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i just checked gas tank on 2157, stamped "4 . 6 4" so.... using Showan 1969 year. 6th day of 4th month? or 4th day of 6th month?
i cannot visualize any stamped marks on the 19 liter of 232.....
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Code on VIN28 disc
so.... KP, your Fvin 28 disc is "3-3" = March 3rd ?
my Fvin 232 is "42" = April 2nd ?
mine has a Q and a B with no dash in between the 4 and the 2.
yours has a R and a R with a dash in between the 3 and the 3.
i find it interesting that you have a dash between numbers and i do not. imho, that is an inconsistency between stampings and within stamping practice. these two inconsistencies lead me to believe 2 different people stamped these 2 different discs.
based on the findings of the preceding stamps. i would suggest the numerals are dates. i would suggest the alphabet letters identify the person who inspected and passed off the discs so they could be used on the assembly line. those discs HAD to be inspected for trueness, after being precision ground.
and Fvin 2157 disc date is June 5..... and my gas tank is June 4. and, Uli's numbers are all within a close date range. perhaps we are finding some consistency.......???
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One could conclude that the numbers 1 have been crossed out with an X leaving 65
yes, that makes sense, as we have seen this "x stamping practice" on a couple Evins a few years ago.
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I'm starting to think the numbers are month day codes given the sequence emerging.
I still have no clue about the alpha stampings
ok, month then date codes..... so MIGHT mean the disc on 232 was inspected and passed off on February 4 ? BEFORE 33 or March 3rd on your disc ?
we need to hear from Mark and Bo !
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ignore me. i'm tired and growing senile. "42" is April 2. it's 12:15 am now. i'm signing off before i blather any more. g'nite !
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Uli, Those are great photos contributions to this thread. One can presume that your bike has a collection of May 1969 dated parts. Anyone else have good records like these.
Yes, upper case is 5 21 and lower case is 5 - 22.
I will take better photos when engine is back ftom welding.
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I can't remember who makes the Z1 shock I'll try and do some research
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That would be great.
On Z1 shocks, there are "ordinary" dates. So I assume they did not come from showa.
Sorry again for OT.
With courtesy of Achim from the Kawasaki-Z- Classiker.Forum.de
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Sandcast # 1983
rear hub: 6 5
is it May, 6 or June, 5 ?
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Probably should not ad here as I do not know about pictures!
But frame 1676 do have rear dampers stamped 4H though right half of "H" is missing , on both.
Easy to find as it has had Konis on for the past 45 years.
The samurai sword looks look more like a tilted 4 in the shape of this one as the cross beam looks moved to the left!
Upper crank case says 5-19 lower 5-20. On E vin 1638.
Oiltank 5 2 3
Petrol 4.6 2
Rear hub is in the Seeley frame can't see for now.
Erling.
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P.S. Forgot about the disc brake:13 or T3 as the top might be hidden by the thing between the two nuts!
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I thought Chris Noel found frame date codes
i cannot remember. seems someone mentioned frame date codes at some point in time. i cannot remember.
This is a recovered frame for organ bank but the number has been removed by the previous owner ...The guy who sold me assured me that the engine had broken in the housing chain sprocket was Sandcast ...
So do not know the number, it's just to make you see the symbol.
Here is the picture of the symbol which is a little strange ...
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we need to hear from Mark and Bo !
I been watching this thread with great interest. The bikes have been a low priority lately. I hope to get back into it in a month. And #97 is still out in California. After that I will see what I can add to the discussion. It looks like it could last a while.
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we really need someone who can interpret Japanese characters !
I found this table KATAKANA, is apparently the letter or symbol means nu ???
They are generally used to transcribe in the Japanese language of foreign words, particularly English words...
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Sandcast # 1983
rear hub: 6 5
is it May, 6 or June, 5 ?
i'm awake again and in the land of the living. you guys "across the pond" have been doing some work !!!!
KP believes month, followed by day. so one would think June 5 on your hub. disc on 2157 also June 5. disc on 232 April 2. the "24" on my cam cover would be February 2. i don't think it's unreasonable to suggest the factory was manufacturing parts for production bikes before March 15, when vin#1 was finished. finding a 2 digit date on a part would tell us where the date is stamped, in relation to the month.
Gerard, fantastic, you found a list of symbols !!!! interesting on the character "nu." i tried putting it in the bing translator and nothing. English meaning = "nu." found this in Wikipedia Nu (kana), the Japanese characters ぬ and ヌ
HA !!!! i found this weblink ! http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI8406701/ (http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI8406701/) " {Nu} is associated with change or process, in the absence of the speaker's emotion, and seems to indicate perfect of result. "
Uli, does your tank have a stamp on it ? So far, your crankcases have the earliest date followed by your frame parts.
Gerard, interesting character on the frame steering head.
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we need to hear from Mark and Bo !
I been watching this thread with great interest. The bikes have been a low priority lately. I hope to get back into it in a month. And #97 is still out in California. After that I will see what I can add to the discussion. It looks like it could last a while.
Mark, when does 97 come back home ? (on another note, the Supersport runs like a Swiss watch. could not save that gorgeous tank, i got 30/31 pin holes sealed....... there's always one :-[)
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Uli, does your tank have a stamp on it ?
So far, your crankcases have the earliest date followed by your frame parts.
- I´m afraid the fuel tank is not the one the bike had when new. I will have a look when it comes back from Meno
- No, oil tank and brake rotor have earlier dates.
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Probably should not ad here as I do not know about pictures!
But frame 1676 do have rear dampers stamped 4H though right half of "H" is missing , on both.
Easy to find as it has had Konis on for the past 45 years.
The samurai sword looks look more like a tilted 4 in the shape of this one as the cross beam looks moved to the left!
Upper crank case says 5-19 lower 5-20. On E vin 1638.
Oiltank 5 2 3
Petrol 4.6 2
Rear hub is in the Seeley frame can't see for now.
Erling.
Interesting!
So we have two sc near below # 2.000 with crancases made within 3 days 8n May and both have "4H" shocks when we would expect "4E" if that stands for a date.
I cant believe they waited 2-3 month for the shocks.
And this is what I found on my otjer pair. They come from an early 9.000 range diecast.
Seems to be "4N".
But there is no "N" month.
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Uli, does your tank have a stamp on it ? So far, your crankcases have the earliest date followed by your frame parts.
Fuel tank says: 4 B 20
If "4" stands for 1969, that would be very early.
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Uli, does your tank have a stamp on it ? So far, your crankcases have the earliest date followed by your frame parts.
Fuel tank says: 4 B 20
If "4" stands for 1969, that would be very early.
in some cases, i believe the alphabet letters are a conundrum for us. Certainly, the "4" would suggest 1969. and the "20" a day of the month.
But, the "B" has me wondering. "B" = 2 = February ?
February 20, 1969 could be one interpretation of the code stamp. (Too bad the letter is a B and not a Z or Q or M or something higher than an I......
if February 20, 1969, then to my way of logic, i would expect the tank to be a 19 liter.
imho, if "B" = February and tank is not 19 liter, feel free to challenge my opinion there is no way the factory would be making a 17 liter tank that early in production. The factory had yet to learn the throttle cables fouled on the 19 liter tank. CB750-1000001 was finished being assembled March 1969.
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Interesting... The only way to know is to see a picture below of the gas tank....
Uli you know what you have to do !! ;)
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...sure.
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..I´m afraid no 19lt tank...
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So there are wrinkle tanks with letters/numbers and numbers-only
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,779.0.html (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,779.0.html)
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Disappointing ... it's not a 19 liters.
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Not disappointing at all (would be wrong on my # 1983) but not what we hoped to see to explain the "B".
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Uli, your tank is the early version of the 17 liter; "double wrinkle" and raised area for the short neck fuel tap. relatively uncommon part.
perhaps over time we can begin to establish some consistency with the codes on "sandcast" tanks.
the first thing i would make note of, is the position of the "." (dot.) by that i mean, are there always the same number of characters in front of -or- behind the dot ? are letters always before the dot or only after the dot ? ......or both ?
are there tanks with numbers only and no letters ?
can we identify a tank with a double digit suggesting a 2 digit day of the month ? tanks used on sandcast bikes "should" all have single digits (of a single letter) denoting the month....
using as one example the tank on 2157, it would seem a safe assumption the "4" denotes 1969 when applying the Showan calendar dating system. the "4" is followed by a dot, followed by a "6" and a "4" again making an assumption the "6" = June and "4" = day 4 of June. Does this mean, at least on tanks, the numeric sequence is always year, month and date ?
is the code an inspector mark after being tested for leaks......? would all agree, we can assume there was more than one person inspecting tanks..... did some inspectors use numbers and some inspectors use alphabet letters ? Would the factory allow this variation in stamping practice......? (seems the factory would not allow inconsistency in inspector code practice, but how would we ever know..... ??? )
why would there be a alphabet letter used instead of all numbers ? is the alphabet letter "always' in the "month position?" if so, then the alphabet letter would be "A" through "I" (and tanks manufactured -after- September would be lettered "J" and higher..... ??? )
what would stampings look like in the case of a 2 digit date, for example, 4 . 6 10....... ?
Anyway, what a great thread with great participation. Great thread started by KP ! these codes and the distinctions seen in same parts of various parts has always intrigued/excited me.
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...sure.
so, in regards to my previous post, we have a "4" a "B" a dot and a "20" (two stamps before and two stamps after the dot)
Does this date translate to February 20, 1969 ? i honestly don't see how that is possible, given CB750-1000001 rolled of assembly line March 15, 1969. But......... what do i know, except i know that i don't know ! 19 liter tanks were used on approximately the first less than 500 vins. Uli's vin is significantly (more than 3 times higher than 500)
HOW COULD THE FACTORY BE PRODUCING 17 LITER TANKS ON FEBRUARY 20, WHICH WOULD BE APPROXIMATELY 25 DAYS -BEFORE-
CB750-1000001 CAME OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE MARCH 15 ??? ??? ??? ???
if the factory KNEW throttle cables would foul the underside of the 19 liter tank, why would the factory fit 19 liter tanks and not 17 liter tanks, thereby placing the factory at risk potential liability when 19 liter tanks fouled the throttle cables and 17 liter cables did not...... ??? ??? ??? ??? using this logic, i cannot believe the code on Uli's early 17 liter tank denotes February 20, 1969. (2 early 17 liter tanks i recently sold, both had June dates. )
this code stampings very much fall in to the category of "sandcast fever" crazy making :o :o :o :o
i imagine we'll hear soon from KP and hopefully............ OTHERS ;D ;D ;D ;D
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i imagine we'll hear soon from KP and hopefully............ OTHERS ;D ;D ;D ;D
I have not ever seen alpha codes on any wrinkle tank until I saw a tank for sale a month or so back by a seller in ???Norway/Denmark??? which had a B code. Now I see another tank with an Alpha stamp "B" Uli. you mentioned that your sandcast did not have the original tank. Did you by any chance buy that tank on eBay If not then there are 2 tanks in Europe with a B stamped on the underside Interesting :o
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Here is a photo of the tank that was listed on eBay by a seller in Norway (I think Norway) It's the top photo red tank. The bracket on this tank is the same as the bracket on the tank Uli has. Note that the edge above the date stamps is flat. Both flat bracket tanks in the photos (Uli and Norway tanks) have the B stamp. All my Sandcast tanks have a "cut out" along this edge See photo 2 for two of my sandcast tanks. Photo 3 is a tank owned by another member which also has the cut out
Very interesting ???
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Here is a photo of the RH side shock off VIN 28. I might suggest that we have C, H, N so far. We need to get some more shock codes and corresponding frame numbers to make anything from this
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Uli, i have made a mistake. Looking at your tank again, it appears the later version 17 liter. it's kind of hard to tell in pictures, appears there are wrinkles on the sides, but a closer look, there are no no wrinkles on the side. My apologies for creating misunderstanding.
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I found the listing of that wrinkle tank which has the B code The date is 4 B * 21 and Uli's is 4 B * 20 so different tanks So we now have 2 wrinkle tanks with a B stamp These are later tanks to sandcast wrinkle tanks IMHO. Remember that wrinkle tanks were used well into 5 digit frame numbers
Also listing was from Netherlands
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-K0-sandcast-genuine-wrinkle-tank-1969-with-original-cap-/122093346036?vxp=mtr&nma=true&si=bjpvAo3dKxJwkKOZGTc6wKi7xYs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-K0-sandcast-genuine-wrinkle-tank-1969-with-original-cap-/122093346036?vxp=mtr&nma=true&si=bjpvAo3dKxJwkKOZGTc6wKi7xYs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
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So "4B" can't be February 1969.
As "H" can't be August 1969 and "N" can't be a month anyway.
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Uli, i have made a mistake. Looking at your tank again, it appears the later version 17 liter. it's kind of hard to tell in pictures, appears there are wrinkles on the sides, but a closer look, there are no no wrinkles on the side. My apologies for creating misunderstanding.
Can you see better on this pic?
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So "4B" can't be February 1969.
As "H" can't be August 1969 and "N" can't be a month anyway.
I suspect you are correct as far as the shocks and tanks are concerned. It's probably a good time to discuss why there are these dates and codes. My own thoughts are that the production of parts, either by the company itself or its sub-contractors, needs to be tracked so that any problem that emerges can be identified as either a design flaw, a production problem or a material issue (bad batch of electrical wire, poor quality steel etc) The company or sub-contractor suppliers may have their own method which we may never decode. Ford and GM had been date coding for decades pre 1970. We need more info on dates and codes from other members. Please
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So "4B" can't be February 1969.
As "H" can't be August 1969 and "N" can't be a month anyway.
I suspect you are correct as far as the shocks and tanks are concerned. It's probably a good time to discuss why there are these dates and codes. My own thoughts are that the production of parts, either by the company itself or its sub-contractors, needs to be tracked so that any problem that emerges can be identified as either a design flaw, a production problem or a material issue (bad batch of electrical wire, poor quality steel etc) The company or sub-contractor suppliers may have their own method which we may never decode. Ford and GM had been date coding for decades pre 1970.
We need more info on dates and codes from other members. Please.
i have contacted Keith and Marty, hopefully they will correspond and share what they know.
KP, please pardon me for enlarging and bolding the last sentence of your previous post which i quoted.
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Steve, can you please look on the pic above and tell me which version of tank it is?
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Steve, can you please look on the pic above and tell me which version of tank it is?
Uli, can you provide a picture of the entire pad the fuel tap screws in to ? Thanks !
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i have contacted Keith and Marty, hopefully they will correspond and share what they know.
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Steve, just sent you a PM. Keith
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we need to hear from Mark and Bo !
I been watching this thread with great interest. The bikes have been a low priority lately. I hope to get back into it in a month. And #97 is still out in California. After that I will see what I can add to the discussion. It looks like it could last a while.
Mark, when does 97 come back home ? (on another note, the Supersport runs like a Swiss watch. could not save that gorgeous tank, i got 30/31 pin holes sealed....... there's always one :-[)
It will be there until January. Too bad about that tank.
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KP what codes are you looking for? Marty K.
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KP what codes are you looking for? Marty K.
Marty, ultimately, we are hoping to identify every part on a sandcast that has a date code. KP started the thread and it was our good fortune Uli's bike is apart in the middle of a restoration to see the codes on his parts. KP has some loose parts, but what we need is a larger sample of parts with date codes so we can contrast and compare similarities and differences not only within and between date codes but also the distinctions we see within and between these parts. Ideally, what we would like is date codes from what is believed to be factory original Fvin/Evin pairs so we can have dates on parts connected to Fvin/Evin dates, in order to establish a bit of an idea what part one could expect to see on a particular bike with a "matched" vin dates.
as it stands, we now (and have been for a long long time) referring to parts as "early," "mid," or "late" production run based on the distinctions we've noted within and between various parts directly related -ONLY- to the the part being attached to a particular frame vin. Having a better understanding of these date codes will help us understand what distinctions we might expect to see on a particular date coded part.
so, that is why i prevailed upon you for your help so we can enlarge our sample.
examples of parts we have found codes on are front brake disc, gas tank, rear brake backing plate, rear shock, rear wheel hub. There may be more parts with codes on them. we also know various engine parts have date codes on them as well, cam cover, sump pan, crank cases, mission cover, head and very likely more as well.
i think we are focused more on identifying as many date coded chassis parts as we can and what those codes are so we can have a range of codes to examine and discuss while looking for consistency and discrepancy.
hope this all makes sense and if you've any more questions, please let us know.
Marty, we really appreciate your help and look forward to what you discover.
Please anyone, feel free to add to the rationale on the value of learning more about these date codes.
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Hi all,
I pulled the wrinkle tanks of my bikes and had a closer look at the date stamps .
- 4/3 , type 2 tank off Ebay
- 4/9 , type 3 tank off Ebay
- 4 1.01 , type 3 tank off Ebay
- 4 B /24 , type 3 tank , came with VIN 5120 , German sandcast
- 4 C /11 , type 3 tank , came off VIN 187XX , German diecast , 12/69-1/70
- 4 .815 , type 3 tank off Ebay
My theory is that the date stamps are all correct , but for the stamped bracket only .I.e , the brackets where made up early and date stamped( by a subcontractor?) .
When Honda started to weld together the tanks , the date stamped brackets were fitted more or less randomly .
If anyone has a type 2 tank ( wrinkles in the sides of the "U" , more pronounced tap mount ) with a date stamp later than 4/9 , it should prove this theory . I think 4=1969 , C=March .
Greetings from Norway
Geir