Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Parts Q&A's and Feedback. => Topic started by: chrisnoel on February 17, 2010, 02:00:53 pm
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I saw an oil filter cover sale on E-bay. The claim was that all sandcasts came with a no fins filter cover that was recalled and replaced during dealer service calls. I was thinking that my finned filter cover was original because my sandcast is not an early one.
He also claimed that his cover was previously an early finned cover with no internal reinforcing, but he had machined off the fins to make it look identicle to a no fins cover. Is this possible?
The two motors I have have differnt size bolts for the filter cover. Is the 14mm original? Or is the 17mm one original.
Thanks. Chris.
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Chris,
The owner of the cover you are referring to is a fellow member "736cc". If you are interested in his cover, I suggest you contact him.
General knowledge seems to indicate fin-less covers were phased out somewhere in the VIN range of 25xx to 35xx.
I know for a fact the fin-less cover was used beyond VIN 35xx. I distinctly remember my 4779, which I purchased new, Sept. 1969, having a fin-less cover. I remember the fin-less cover on that bike for two reasons. 1. I remember that cover being HOT to handle during oil changes. 2. My college buddy, Norm Mathis, bought a brand new Ruby Red K1, May 1971. I remember he & I, comparing the two bikes, side by side. I can remember three things about his machine, how I wished my bike was red, how much more I liked his side covers AND how cool I thought his oil filter cover with fins looked, compared to my 'smooth' cover. I ALSO remember how my 4779, could whup up on Norms machine, every time we had rolling start drags. No matter whether he or I was riding each others bikes, 4779 would ALWAYS beat him by 1/2 to 3/4 bike lengths. I suspect the reason for this was 4779 had nearly 20k miles and his bike was still quite new. Heh, heh. Norm, where are ye now ? ;D
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Ok. Well my frame # is 5640. If any body knows of the finless cover coming on any later #'S let me know. One of my finned covers has a broken fin and would be a good cadidate for making a forgerie.
I would not like it to have a machined look. Rather I would like to make it appear original. I have some metal smithing skills, and could easily emboss a sand cast finish on it. I have already embossed away some ss#s that were scratched into my motor. I would first need to know if simply removing the fins is all that would need to be done.
How about the bolt. One of mine is 14mm. and the other is 17mm. Were they both used? Or is only one original?
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Hi Chris, 14MM would be correct I believe. They switched to 12mm to stop overtightening and cracking of the filter cover. I think that change was part of the dealer fix when they replaced the smoothe covers. I'm not familiar with the 17mm bolt. By emboss do you mean bead blast it?
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embossing is normally a pattern that is rolled onto a flat piece of metal with anything that will fit between the metal and another piece of backing metal while it is sent through the rollers. If I wanted to make a flat piece of metal look sand cast I could just put a piece of sand paper on it and roll it right in.
When I embossed off the ss#'s from my engine I simply used some 80 grit sand paper and tapped it with a hammer untill the engravings were blended away.
Were the finless covers sand cast as well? I don't think tapping the entire surface of the cover would get me very far, but I could find a way to emboss the whole surface if need be I'm sure.
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Post by Frampton "Guest"
Just curious...why would you emboss off the serial numbers of the motor??????
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The orig smoothies were sandcast, painted silver and are presently extremely rare. Try turning a finned cover on a lathe, sandblast it, then paint it dull aluminun. Top it off w/ a 14mm bolt. Since you're going to all the trouble to make it look right, you should machine an early type w/o strengthening internal ribs. Otherwise, every time you change the oil filter, you will see the ribs and be bummed-out for not having your bike being as correct as possible. :(
And to give it just the right patina, use the cover on your daily-rider CB750 so it gets kinda grungy.
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I never altered the engine #. A previous owner had engraved a social security # in a few places on the engine case and head. The method I used to blend out the engraving worked very well.
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Both my covers are the early type non reinforced fin type covers. One has a broken fin so that is the one I have begun to hack up. I like to use my hand tools, so I have already cut the fins off by hand with my 4" coping saw. Next I am smothing it down then wet sanding it. Then its off to the sandblaster.
Steve. I here that our K0's have a hotter cam than later years. Might be why you were abble to lay down the law when racing your friend.
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Chris. May I make a suggestion. No matter how adept a fellow you are you will never work this to the finish a lathe will accomplish. Please, take this filter cover to a machine shop and have a professional spin it for you. Have it wet bead blasted rather than dry as this produces a more realistic cast finish. You will be much happier with the result and I will sleep better knowing you did that KP :'(
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I've made a few things out of metal. Cutting stuff off and making it look like it was never there is part of just about every project that I have done. I have two of the fins gone to the point that they may as well have never been there. These were the outside fins, and the most dificult. Its all down hill from here.
The side wall of this cover is taipered. I don't think a machine will preserve that taiper as much as I can by doing it by hand. I also dont want to take off that flat lip under the bolt.
My assotment off files don't like the aluminum so I have to clean them often to avoid gouging.
thanks for the wet bead blasing Idea. That does sound better than just letting the local blasting shop have a crack at it.
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Chris, if that finned cover gives you any problems, just use a bigger hammer. ::)
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That is my plan if I mess it up.
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Well I have removed the fins. I did have to chock it up in an arbor that fit my drill. Once I had the fins cut and filed down enough I spun it and sanded/trued it with 230 paper in a rubber block. It still has 4 little remnant indents that show it is a die cast cover. I will have to fill them with metal filler after I get it blasted and before I paint it.
I'm still glad I didn't machine lathe it. I don't think it is balanced enough to avoid removing too much material from one side with a lathe. My drill arbor fit perfectly and the thing stll was not balanced when I spun it. + had I let someone lathe it they might have kept going till even those indents were gone. Then they would have messed up the taipered angle of the side wall.
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Chris, I've done a dozen (12) or more filter covers with a lathe and have had absolutely no problems. The finish is superb and 2nd to none. I'm glad yours has turned out OK KP :)
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Posted by Bob "Guest"
I have an additional question i'd like to throw into the mix. I have an oil filter cover that looks identical to the non finned type in shape, except that it has fins on it. They are shallow compared to the later type and do not completley surround the out side. It does have the two tabs on it to keep from rotating when tightened. There is no indication the fins have been turned down for appearances sake. And there aren't any reinforcment ribs inside. Aftermarket?
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Don't really know Bob. Maybee it is not a CB750 cover. It might fit the same and cover the same size filter but it could be from another model. Turn off the fins and blast it. What have you got to loose.
Do early sandcast motors that never came with a fin type filter have the two little nubs that keep the fin type filters from rotating when tightened?
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Bob's oddball cover sounds like its from another Honda, too bad a pic can't be posted here.
The smooth covers don't have locating nubs; they're much easier to install, too. Spin it on.
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The round oil filter housing with the low profile fins and allignment tabs is from a Honda CX 500 or CX 650 also a silver wing has the same housing.
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Posted by cnoel "Guest"
I'm refering to the engine case itself. Mine has two little tabs to keep the oil filter in place. Do earlier sandcasts have these tabs?
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Chris of all my motors with both lower and higher vin numbers than yours. They all have the little tabs where the oil filter housing would lock into place.
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Anyone have any experience with the smooth oil filter cover available from Yamiya?
Mark
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Yes, i purchased one many months ago.
Yamiya sell the oil filter cover in the status as it comes off from casting.
Really it's turner only in 2 points, in the housing of the o-ring gasket and in the housing of the bolt, on the top face where the bolt go in.
It's necessary:
a)turner the oil cover in the superior part to do the same angle of the diagonal circle;
b)brush and polish it to have an oil cover like the original.
At the end, it's nice.
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There are a number of variations of oil bowl from other models which will fit a CB750, and have I believe the locating pip for the crankcase lugs. Early Goldwing and CX500 come to mind, and I believe had some external / shallow fins. Sandcast crankcases of course have the two locating lugs, yet the early round bowl had no corresponding piece.
There does seem to be some debate about the correct round bowl finish, with reference being made to trying to achieve the cast finish by blasting, use of silver paint, etc, and I seem to recall the Yamiya repros to come with a "dull" finish.
Picture of original bowl from #302 attached. Clearly not externally sandcast, nor painted. When found, the bikes had less than 10,000 miles showing, had been un-used for 30 years and was VERY original. The "patina" (read crazed clearcoat) was the same on the oil bowl as on the various clearcoated engine covers, but with a touch of gravel rash off the front tyre.
For me the only correct finish (for #302 at least) was the same as on the other clearcoated engine covers.
I also seem to recall that some of the factory literature shows a bright, polished finish to the bowl.
Perhaps like other parts, different finishes came with different batches of parts?
A couple of repros I have made from damaged finned bowls have been done on a lathe. Only trick is to get it to spin true (I made a mounting hub up) so that you machine an even amount of all areas. other than that its straight forward to do (if of course you can access a machine shop!)
Cheers all.
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And this time with the picture, I hope!
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Oil filter cover with ribs inside and the fins inside turned off just sold for $150.00 on FleaBay. Gee's, if people are willing to pay that much for incorrect forgeries I should use duct tape to make a recessed lip on an ignition and see what I get for it.
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I saw that as well and thought, that just isn't right! Oh well, to each his own I guess. Recessed ignition switches are now fetching over 400.00!
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Oil filter cover with ribs inside and the fins inside turned off just sold for $150.00 on FleaBay. Gee's, if people are willing to pay that much for incorrect forgeries I should use duct tape to make a recessed lip on an ignition and see what I get for it.
Just curious, how do you know it's a forgery? Didn't the later smoth oil covers have ribs inside?
Mark
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Ditto what KP said
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Ditto what KP said
In other words, one should just make their own?
Mark
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Some of the finned covers do not have internal ribbing, so they are the best candidate for modificaton. The fins can be easily removed, i have a modified cover waiting to go on the unstamped engine for 2157.
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Oil filter cover with ribs inside and the fins inside turned off just sold for $150.00 on FleaBay. Gee's, if people are willing to pay that much for incorrect forgeries I should use duct tape to make a recessed lip on an ignition and see what I get for it.
Just curious, how do you know it's a forgery? Didn't the later smoth oil covers have ribs inside?
Mark
Some of the finned covers do not have internal ribbing, so they are the best candidate for modificaton. The fins can be easily removed, i have a modified cover waiting to go on the unstamped engine for 2157.
Ahh, some finned covers had no ribs but the smooth covers never had ribs. Steve, I just read your post in the scammers section so I get it now. Thanks for the education guys.
Mark
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Hi all, I thought I might add a little more to this thread.
I spoke to the previous owner of one of my late (7109) sandcasts. He was also the original owner purchasing it new, Jan 70.
He stated that the oil filter cover he purchased the bike with was not a round, but rather a finned version. Looks like the dealership replaced the part when the service bulletin was issued, or possibly, they were replaced at the factory itself.
I have noted that Steve Swan stated the service bulletin recalling the round oil filter covers was issued Jan 1970. But it stated the 010 part number, finned, internally ribbed, number 2 cast on it. So somewhere before that the finned, internally ribbed versions were being produced and supplied to either dealers or fitted in factory.
The same service bulletin also mentions 12mm bolts issued to replace the 14mm bolts to hold the filter covers on.
So it looks like Honda must have done a run of finned, no internal rib covers before issuing the service bulletin. These may have been used at the factory or in dealerships prior to the SB being issued. I say this because 5528 came with a finned, unreinforced cover, with 14mm bolt. It also had #28 caps indicating it may not have been subject to factory recall. Or if it was, it was prior to the SB as it did not have the 12mm bolt.
1853 has the same cover, but a 12mm bolt. The carb caps were the later type, hence it went through factory recall of these items, but the dealership was supplied with finned, unreinforced covers.
I can't check 7109 as it is with a pal in the USA. But I'm curious to know if it has a 12 or 14 bolt from when it came from the dealership new.
A few members have later sandcasts with finned, unreinforced covers. If they could fill us in with what size bolts, it might give an insight into when these finned unreinforced covers were used from and to.
Keith has also stated assembling early K0s in dealerships and noting the round cover, confirming the SB range to 9000 numbered K0s.
This then means a conflict- if the first 9000 bikes came with a round OF cover, 14mm bolt, then were some dealers replacing the cover without changing out the 14mm bolt? Or were they being fitted from factory, some with the finned unreinforced cover, some with round OF covers, using 14mm bolts? Or were dealers already changing the oil filter covers pre-SB, prior to 12mm bolts being circulated?
Confused as ever... ;)
Steven
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Back in the day, all listed parts were not always available. We frequently got backorder notices and had to wait for certain parts. Honda probably had the first batches of everything manufactured per their bill of materials quantities until they had historical sales data available to order otherwise. The Parts Department Managers did not always order parts on a one for one or whatever the quantity per assembly was basis. For example, when the SB came out with the new part numbers, some shop might order 20 bolts and 10 filter cups. So a 12mm bolt might not have been available at some dealerships for the recall and the old bolt was re-used. You had to get the Customer's bike back on the road and that's the way it was - probably still is.
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Hi Keith,
Thanks for the input.
So were all the sandcasts/early k0s you were preparing for sale - they were coming from factory with round oil filter cases? Then if sold post Jan 1970 SB, these were swapped out prior to sale?
This would mean that anyone with a finned unreinforced cover, 14mm bolt, would have Originally had a round oil filter case on their bike, but swapped with replacement cover by the dealership prior to sale. Same said for any sandcast bike with 12mm bolt, and later finned reinforced cover.
Thanks, Steven.
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Steven, I don't really remember when I saw the first finned covers from the factory. I never saw any bikes updated per SB's prior to sale. The bikes were in big demand and selling as fast as we could get them. Parts for the SB's were not always available to all dealers when the SB's were issued. It was sometimes weeks or months before we could actually get the recall parts. It seemed like the bigger, older dealers in California always got them first. They were often allocated based on actual bike orders from the Dealer to Honda. The very first delivery of 750's was based on the Dealer's previous year's sales. The shop where I worked at the time was a new Honda Dealer and got 1 SC 750 where some other shops around Houston got 2-3 in their first shipments. After the first couple of shipments, you could order as many as you could afford to buy within some reason I guess. There were many models available and selling at the time so your ability to bankroll your showroom came into play. Kinda like a lot of businesses, turning your inventory is the goal. It was not until the K1's came out that we had any 750's sit on the showroom floor for more than a day or two. $1500 was serious money back then (still is) and as soon as a Buyer got his bank loan approved, he was riding. Keith
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Hello ,
interesting thread . I have VIN5120/E5306 , a German sandcast . It came with a finned cover with no internal ribs and a 14mm oil bolt .
So this lines up with Steven`s observation on VIN5528 .
Maybe the 14mm bolt was not superseeded with the finless cover ?
A curiosity : E5306 was supposed to be the last engine without a set ring for the main bearing on transmission input shaft . I checked this when rebuilding the engine , it for sure had the set ring . So Honda literature is not 100% accurate and it`s probably difficult to get a 100% accurate conclusion .A lot have happened in 43 years....
Greetings from Norway
Geir
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Thanks for the input Keith and Geir.
The sandcast engine on ebay at the moment #4252 looks to have a 14mm bolt (pictured), with a finned cover. I noted this also on another very original bike no. 5548.
Maybe Keith is right. The SB was issued, without enough supply of the 12mm bolts. Unfinned Oil filter covers were replaced but the 14mm bolts were not. Or the techs got lazy ;) But it seems like it happened a fair bit to be a few random one-offs.
The recent seller of the oil filter covers has a K0 up for sale in the 12000 range which he claims is original. It has a round oil filter cover, however #28 carb caps are not on there (factory recalled as the bike is pre-17000). The rest of the bike looks original:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=251137545832&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=251137545832&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)
Would love to hear more from owners who bought the bikes new and which month as to which oil filter cover it came with.
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Wednesday August 20 1969. Got a Honda CB 750 1001676 5/19 E1638. Round oilfilter house 14m bolt. Sunday after in Sweden met 2 other Hondas. They had finned filtre houses! Engine 23xx. Do not remember when I got finned one, and it is black, have just looked to check for the 14mm bolt. But the round one reached an age, where it had at least 3 cracks from the center hole. Don't know where it has gone. Normally I have kept things. Even the massive rubber cusions from inside the rearwheel, and 28 . carbtops. Original engine has not been in use for the past 35 years eather' as a diecast second hand one was acquired for 8xx cc enlargment. And the original should be as was for my old age run about on the first CB 750 to be licensed in Denmark. Wife denies i'm so far jet. And like someone else in this forum says: I'm not qualifyed to do restauration work like described here in the forum. I'm the owner and was the user untill years ago, but it is more fun to ride the fireblade. Diecast Engine 19216 has 12mm bolthead and grey finned house. If they are reinforced or not I've no idea.
Youers Erling.
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Hi Erling, thanks for your comments. Very interesting observation. I emailed Vic World for his comments, and they are as follows. Vics experience supports Erling's report and provides support to the finned unreinforced filter observations a few members have had where using a 14mm bolt, could have come that way from factory. There are also three reported finishes on the exterior which I have seen in various photos, and Vic has confirmed. So I hope this sheds light on this elusive part ;)
Hi Steve,
Yes, well first, and most importantly, it is a misnomer to think that all sandcast bikes had them.
In fact, they only came from the factory on bikes up to about #1860 and change (yes, I am sure that someone had frame # 3900 "from the start" for example, and he swears that it came on his bike from new!)...but that was simply an instance where a round cover fell onto his bike some 40 years ago somehow.
(Do you remember everything you did day to day 40 years ago?!...I sure don't)
But..still they argue it. Those are the number of bikes (from the Factory).
So, that said, yes, Chris's finish sounds accurate compared to most that I have seen.
I also have one or two that are painted (engine case grey paint) from the Factory..
Have also seen rough cast finishes on the outside as well, with no paint (don't know if those were cleared or not)
So there obviously were all 3.
Hope this helps, and nice to hear from you!
Thanks,
Vic
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Here are some pics I have collected of the Round Oil Filter Covers showing their finishes, just to put them all in the one spot. To give credit and thanks to their respective owners for the information and photos:
Vic World (Satin Polished fitted to engine)
Mark B (Satin Polished with porosity)
John (sandydogg) (Painted, not Satin polished Finish)
Chris R (Satin Polished, original condition, on bike)
The final one I dont know where I got but I believe it to be original. It has the as cast appearance on the outside, with no polishing.
It should be noted that to the best of my knowledge, all filters have the same internal 'as cast' appearance.
Regards,
Steven.
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Well Steven, I am compelled to respond. Firstly I agree that the claim that all round oil filter housings are as smooth as a baby's bum is questionable at best and think the photographic evidence clearly shows that there are variants. I have a cast filter housing that is NOT smooth and shiny on the external surface and was claimed by the owner to be original. I have kept it all these years believing I was scammed but have convinced myself that it could be a genuine item.
However, and I am sorry to to say this, I totally disagree with Vic on this subjet. I have too many photos of later sandcast bikes and owners comments to accept that the smooth oil filter housing was discontinued at VIN under 2000. Let me tell you that the smooth oil filter housing was still being fitted to sandcast bikes up to VIN 4500 and beyond. Fact and no if's or but's on this subject as far as I'm concerned. Further, all sandcasts fitted with finned covers were fitted with no rib oil filter housings and this ribless cover was carried on into the dicast production but I cannot attest to this. Whilst I didn't buy a new sandcast to confirm my comments, there are several on here that had bikes from new so I welcome their comment or contribution on this debate.
Never say anything with a sandcast is absolute, just look at the things found on Marks bike. No hole rear hubs is a good example as is the inner casting of the cam cover.
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KP, you're entitled to disagree- my email wasn't stating anyone was correct or not. We are all trying to add more info in to knuckle down a range.
I re-read Steve Swans comments on the service bulletin which our mutual friend Bob has. The frame range given seems incorrect doesn't it? 1783-9954. The later parts bulletin then refers to the VIN range starting from #1.
I'm not saying Honda documentation got it right, but let's look at it this way - Honda were referring to an oil filter 000 part number to be replaced with 010. This is the finned, ribbed cover.
There is nothing in that service bulletin, I believe, referring to a round oil filter cover. It could be interpreted that their manufacture records show 000, the finned unribbed version, was in use from 1783, used to 9954. This would coincide with the observation you have made regarding finned unreinforced covers used until K0s. Then Honda might have corrected this realising their error, with the parts bulletin starting at #1.
As original as it is, 1853 could very well have come with a finned unreinforced oil filter cover for all I know. It has wear on it from road blast suggesting it was there from the start. I can't date a part purely by road blast wear though which is why I'm pushing this thread.
Steve S also confirmed his bike came with one from new, and I don't doubt that. Nothing to say that the service bulletin VIN range isnt correct but they ran out of the finned versions in the production line and used some stock of unfinned covers to get them out. Or workshops replaced them during servicing, or an owner replaced his cracked finned cover with a round one because that's what his wrecker had.
The best we can do is listen to first hand accounts and whittle it down from there. I also seem to remember you swearing that engine cases were never painted at one point but the more input we got by raising the subject, we realized that they were.
Honda also doesn't help with the variances in production changes, with no change in part no's either. I have a NOS early diecast chain sprocket cover with the same part no as Bobs NOS sandcast finish chain sprocket cover. Mark has a million more such instances documented too so we are aware there is nothing 'concrete' here.
Cheers,
Steven
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Steve Swans post on the Sevice Bulletin FYI:
Honda Service Bulletin CB750 #13, dated 1/26/70 discusses "a modified oil fliter case and center bolt have been developed to prevent oil filter case damage." The S.B. goes on to say, "the modified case has 8 ribs radiating from the center of the bolt boss inside the case......, being fixed with a 12mm width bolt instead of a 14mm bolt, to prevent over tightening." This 1/26/70 S.B. goes on to say the application is "for all CB750 units within the range Frame # 1783-9554." The case pn is 15411-300-010. The S.B. also notes this cover can be identified with the numeral "2" stamped on top portion between center.
Parts Bulletin:
The Honda Parts Bulletin, #CB750-13, dated April 24, 1970, notes this finned cover WITH reinforcement ribbing to fit all engine vins beginning at #1, pn 15411-300-010 -and- to replace pn 15411-300-000.
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We can at least assume that the finned ribbed version was being used by factory from 9954. Anything prior was round, or finned, unreinforced ;)
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Hi Steven ,
I had a closer look at my finned , unreinforced covers .
1st cover off VIN5120/E5306 : 14mm bolt ,painted silver by myself .
2nd cover , off Ebay : 14mm bolt , silver paint
3rd cover , off Ebay : 12mm bolt , silver paint
None of these covers has a casting number on either side of the 12 o`clock locating rib .( easy identifying point without removing cover from engine )
I also have 2 off covers with "2" cast in , as shown as the replcement cover from Honda in Service Bulletin #13 . Bolt changed from 14mm to 12mm together with "#2" cover.
This "#2" cover is also shown on p.17 in the #97 restoration.
Strange : the mating locating ribs to fix the oilfilter cover are present on my VIN1161/E1306 engine case ( not on #97 ,see p.17 ) . So it means engine #1306 was already prepared for the ribbed cover .(I have a Yamiya cover fitted )
I think you are right in assuming that all later sandcast`s was fitted with the ribbed , unreinforced cover (no cast number ) , silver painted , and 14mm bolt .
Amazing how much archeology that can be applied to an oil filter cover...
All the best
Geir
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This "#2" cover is also shown on p.17 in the #97 restoration.
I looked by I couldn't find the #2. Is it on the one that Chris shows or mine? Where is the location?
Thanks,
Mark
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Hi Mark ,
it`s shown in the first picture in the post "Reply #242 , Feb. 19.2011 " , page 17 .
You can see the "2" cast into the right of the locating fin on the oil filter cover .
This is exactly as shown in the Service Bulletin #13 , 1/26/70 . Also , I have 2 of these covers (finned , internally ribbed, "2" cast )
Many thanks for sharing the #97 story , outstanding presentation .
Best Regards
Geir
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Service bulletin number 13 refers to engine numbers 1783 to 9554 as being the range for which the internally reinforced finned bowl was to be applied.
WHY 1783?
If you look inside an original round bowl, it is cast in such a way that there is no sharp corner inside the bolt boss which would be susceptible to cracking in the same way as the first finned type was (in fact there is a nice cast radius, which provides effective crack resistance). For this reason, there was no need to replace original round bowls with later type re-inforced finned bowls. Therefore you could deduce that engine 1782 was the last factory built engine likely to have been fitted with a round bowl, based on this particular service bulletin.
UK parts list number number 4 however identifies a change from the first "000" bowl to the "010" bowl from engine number 4149 (also a change of the filter bolt at the same number) - Honda literature is always accurate of course!. Owner observations also suggest engines later than 1783 to have had round bowls - I'm sure they all have perfect memories where detail and events of over 40 years ago (which would maybe not have been of such interest then as now) are concerned!!!!?
I'rm with Steven regarding making judgements regarding fact on this subject, as there is contradictory information. We all have to make our own minds up, taking account of the available facts and observations - and the more people that contribute, the better for all.
Only three pieces of information I can offer - #302 (E338) came with a round bowl / 14mm bolt. #5298 (E5192) came with a fiinned, unreinforced and internally CRACKED bowl, #86xx (E8550) also came with a finned and unreinforced bowl. I BELIEVE all three to have been original, but can't know that for fact as I was not the original owner of any of them.
That's my two pennorth!
Cheers - Chris R
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KP, you're entitled to disagree- my email wasn't stating anyone was correct or not. We are all trying to add more info in to knuckle down a range.
I also seem to remember you swearing that engine cases were never painted at one point but the more input we got by raising the subject, we realized that they were.
Steven, Hmmmmm! I don't ever recall "swearing" that engine cases were not painted. Maybe you can direct me to that post. I do recall starting a post asking the question but wasn't aware I posted a comment "swearing" they were not painted or are they your words Steven ::) Mind you, I'm happy to take it on the chin if I'm shown I did make that statement. And if some future evidence emerges that confirms the round filter was ceased in the 1700 range then I'm really in credibility trouble.
Also, my post wasn't saying you were incorrect, rather I was conveying that I don't agree with the email content you posted from Vic. I hope he was happy for you to post his comments as I certainly wouldn't want my private email correspondence posted for all to see especially when some disagree with the content.
I might also clarify that I stated "Fact and no ifs' and buts as far as I'm concerned". Before members begin to lecture about how one uses the word "fact" my suggestion is to read the complete sentence rather than a few words. I've said this before, it is difficult to convey in words what would otherwise be conveyed in verbal conversation. I have accepted that round filter covers were part of the kit on sandcasts engines, at least over 4500 so for me I am accepting this as fact. If others believe otherwise then that's their right.
As for Honda service bulletins ?????? Seems yet again they leave us with questions.
I will close by posing this question.
Do we all agree that the literature states sandcast engines were fitted up to VIN 7414.
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Hey KP, 'swearing' Ill admit are my words as I couldnt remember your exact words at the time:
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=138.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=138.0)
My dealings with Sandcasts is limited to 3 engines and whilst I've always believed the cases weren't painted...
Not about sticking to you KP, just an example (which Im sure we could all give) based on limited experience at the time, which we have all had moments of. Conflicting information is actually what I am after so we can challenge the current thought and establish a 'norm' based on practice rather than literature.
I introduced my email to Vic asking for his experience to help the wider sandcast forum community so I did consider it acceptable to post his comments to help us all.
Your last point is a bit of a loaded question - yes literature states that, but I believe there is evidence here of a later engine number having sandcast cases. This is just another example of literature and practice differing, presumably to get another bike 'out the door and to the hungry customers'. Just like Aus and Jap K0's having a later VIN than literature states. I have no doubt this same irregularity applies to the oil filter mystery too.
I agree with Chris R's statements regarding the round oil filter housing not being targeted for replacement as it may have been considered a non-defective part. I dont think honda were aiming to replace every part which was considered non-defective with newer versions of the part as Marks bike would not be as original as it was. Just that in so many cases with production bikes, the practice and literature differ.
The service bulletins dont pull numbers out of the air - I have no doubt that they are based on records of some sort at the time (i.e. Honda may have produced X amount of round oil filters, fitted them religiously to Y number of bikes, kept z number of parts as spares which filtered on to the production line as new parts production couldnt keep up with demand, and Honda based service bulletin and parts bulletin on either of these figures, not on actual practice where there could have been a mix of parts used). When parts were superseded to later parts, it was quite common for Honda to modify part manuals to say that the part, even if different, still applies to all prior bikes.
There are basically too many variables to this equation - there is a 'practiced norm' and there are the 'exceptions'. But just because someone says I saw a round filter on VIN 12000 the other day (which I did) doesnt mean it was the norm, and that all bikes up to that number used them even if it was original to the bike. It could be the case that even up to 4500, they were still used but as an exception rather than the norm.
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Been resisting posting; I've allowed your remarks to get the better of me......... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Dad bought 4779 new; September 30, 1969. Later on, I remember me doing one oil change in particualr on that bike; dropping the cover into the drain pan because it was hot and slippery; unsuccessfully trying to pick the damn round, hot, slippery thing out of the drain pan. I can still see the cover in the pan. The date was late September 1970, the place was the Union College parking lot, beside the Prescott Hall men's dorm. The men's dean was making me put my motorcycle into storage for the Winter, because i was a Freshman and Freshman men were not allowed to drive vehicles until they successfully passed their Freshman year. So i was getting ready to put my precious Honda 750 into storage, changing oil and giving it a very thorough cleaning after riding the bike all summer including the trip i made to California earlier in May (as well as gravel roads for trips home.) When i was preparing to change the oil, Ted Hansen had just parked his pea green panhead Harley and came over to watch me. When i dropped the cover in the drain pan, Ted had a small laugh at my expense. A few days earlier, i had just bought a Snap On impact driver (which i still have) I paid $32 for that driver. To give the bike a thorough cleaning, i had removed the exhaust and used the driver to remove the exhaust flanges, after i had changed the oil. I remember noting oil leakage at the head joint and burned oil around the flanges, which i wanted to clean before it got completely baked on the fins, especially since the bike was ging into storage. I remember a few days before this oil change, as i was getting ready (dragging my feet) to put the bike into storage, i discovered the flanges were held on by screws i could not remove with a common screw driver and telling the dean i needed a few more days before i could get my 750 into storage, because i was waiting on the special tool (the Snap On impact driver.) The odo on my 750, had just turned 18,000 miles. I remember telling Ted, when he was watching me change the oil, that i was putting my 750 into storage and asked him, when i was done working on the bike, if he could give me a ride to the garage that was about a mile away from the dorm. I remember Ted following me to the garage, waiting for me while i took the battery out of the bike and my heavy heart as i rode passenger behind Ted on his Harey. When i gave the men's dean the keys to my bike, i remember thinking to myself how happy i would be when i was an upper classmen like Ted. Some memories leave indelible impressions, the privilege of that "last" oil change is one first hand experience i remember well, which is mine and is what it is.
I remember when Ed Mathis brought his new red 1971 750 to college, June 1971. I had my 750 back, i successfully completed my Freshaman year. Ed and i compared features between his brand new bike and my "old" bike. We were both serious farm boy motor heads. Amongst a number of differences i remember between the two bikes, i distinctly remember wishing 4779 had a finned oil filter cover like Ed's bike. I also remember liking Ed's steel cased gauges, because i did not like "cheap plastic." I remeber not liking his plastic side cover badges, but liking the shape of his side covers. Ed and probably spent at least two to three hours on more than one occasion, comparing our bikes. I also remember 1st gear rolling "drags" with Ed, no matter i rode my bike and he his or we traded, on a number of occasions, my bike would always beat his by half to one bike length. Most probably because my bike had, by that time, had a little under 20,000 miles and his bike was still new.
Of course i don't remember every thing. Who does. But what i do remember from my experience, is nothing i've made up, embellished... or forgot. Or, will swear to or argue. I can tell you all sorts of features, details, on more than a few of the 70+ motorcycles i have owned/ridden/rebuilt/restored in my day. Certainly, some of the motorcycles and their features, i barely remember or cannot remember at all.
The Honda 750 Four is not one of those motorcycles.
For a farm boy, who's father was a mechanical engineer, successful salesman of his inventions, of which he built the first examples with his own two hands, i was taught (and expected) to pay attention to detail.
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Steve S also confirmed his bike came with one from new, and I don't doubt that.
No doubts to your observation Steve - just saying we are short of info and we can do with more first hand accounts :D
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10-4, Ozzie mate ! Just thought i'd include the detail to my past statement 4779 had a round cover.......
Agreed, would sure be nice, if more people, with more exposure or different experiences, would share. It's hard to beat first hand experience. We all still stand to learn alot more than we already know.
Alot of what we say or think we know, cannot be proven. Our conclusions usually must be arrived at by deductive or inductive logic.
Would be nice to share that info that supports that logical reasoning.
Keith has great first hand memories, having worked for a Honda dealer during that time period.
Marty has some first hand experience also.
Definitely welcome Vic World's participation. Wish he could come on, once in a while. As an example, some of us (myself for one) had mistaken belief about crankcase surface finish. Vic was helpful in clearing that up. Our web page supports World Motorcycles.
Another topic, as i may have mentioned or alluded to sometime earlier, i worked for Olson Brother's Honda Triumph, before i left for college, June to early August, 1970. One of my jobs was removing and setting up the small bikes out of the crate and helping remove and dispose crating for the larger bikes. What i remember about 750's, we had not a one new 750 unit come in during that time.
I remember the red 'mate' to my blue-green bike coming in for a service and really really liking that red.
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Yes Steven, I thought they were your words. Maybe you should choose your words a little more wisely and avoid the need to recover. I would also suggest you show the entire sentence of my post of some years ago as your attempt to try and recover some lost ground by posting a one liner also hasn't cut it for me. Am I a little miffed. You better believe it as I always try and contribute to the debate rather than taking pot shots at an individual. I'll make no further comments on this point
As for my closing comment. It was through my persisting in following up a rumor that there was supposedly a sandcast engined CB750 located in France finally brought to light some actual photographs of the said motorcycle. This then led to some remarkable disclosures ie: that of at least 5 such examples exist. My point is that the the belief that VIN 7414 was the last bike fitted with a sandcast engine was busted with this French find. Just one exception blows the norm whichever way you look at it. Just one bike after VIN 17XX fitted with a round oil filter housing blows the accepted norm, just one late numbered crankcase with a small engine number pad blows the accepted norm that they belong to early VIN bikes. I remember some years ago I was challenged when I suggested there were several different rocker covers used on the K0 model. That information was first suggested by Andy Morris many years before but nobody thought it was correct. We now know there are at least 2 different rocker covers used on the sandcast and comprehensive information is posted on our site. Nothing is sacred as for a sandcast having this or that and I will repeat my comment that service bulletins are ??? ???
This is a closed book for me now
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Hi Mark ,
it`s shown in the first picture in the post "Reply #242 , Feb. 19.2011 " , page 17 .
You can see the "2" cast into the right of the locating fin on the oil filter cover .
This is exactly as shown in the Service Bulletin #13 , 1/26/70 . Also , I have 2 of these covers (finned , internally ribbed, "2" cast )
Many thanks for sharing the #97 story , outstanding presentation .
Best Regards
Geir
Thanks, I was confused and thought the #2 was on the smooth oil filter cover. So the #2 finned cover is the latest (last) version of the finned cover?
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I just want to say i appreciate very much and we need very much everyone's observations, this is how we get a closer idea waht these features of the sandcast were from the factory.
KP, I and Andy Morris were at this "sandcast thing" long before the website went on line Dec.2004. And, i am only saying this because long befor KP, Andy and i were thinking of things sandcast, there were other people long prior, thinking talking things sandcast. All i know, when i got reinterested in the 1969 CB750 around 2000, i started networking immediately, asking questions, wanting to learn more and as much as possible. What i quickly figured out, there were the same personalities who knew about sandcasts as knew about Indian 4's, Chief's Scouts, Excelsiors, Henderson's, Ace's, ohc Britich singles and ohc British singles and twins of various configurations. (Human nature does not change.) These examples are: 1. Guys who literally slept, lived and breathed some of these marques. Some of these guys were the most humble type, always willing to share what they knew and would sell a part they did not need at a price that gave someone else a chance to get their bike on the road. 2. Guys who slept, lived and breathed some of these marques and would share little or nothing about what they knew, sell litle at infalted prices or nothing at all. Seemed they wanted to keep what they knew secret as possible, for whatever the reason. Or they were the guys, after you heard them talk, were people one avoided or had as little to do with as possible, for whatever the reason. 3. Then, there was/is the spectrum of people in between. Kind of the same thing as those who get involved, those who stand by and those who benefit from what the involved people do. Am sure you've experienced some of what i am describing.
What i am saying is this: all we are simply trying to do is learn through discussion and debate. We got a little bit of that over the topic of 11m stems. Of their existance, more than just myself learned this detail from Vic at the 2009 meet. Seems sometimes the debate and discussion gets a little strong, perhaps heated, but that is where we hopefully can park our ego at the door in the spirit of fellowship and desire to share what we learn. I've learned little to nothing from guys who share little to nothing. What this debate tells me is we all have passion about the sandcast CB750. I for one am damn glad we share that passion. We're all here to help each other and we've learned alot from each other. I learned just when i thought i knew it all, there is another guy who thinks or actually knows more than i do. Over the years, i've reframed that as "we all know different things, let's share those things and have some fun." I also believe what is in written form can be interpreted or 'sound' differently then when the same information is given in first hand, eye to eye conversation.
So anyway........ sandcasts are alot of fun and i like them because i had one when it came new from the dealer. If i did not care about motorcycles, i would not have the same passion we all share in what we enjoy doing. Sandcasts are a small, yet enjoyable part of my life. I figure there is and will remain alot about sandcasts i never know.
So, let's all share and participate as much as we are able. That was and remains the purpose of the website, to include all, share what we know and have fun. That sure happened at the 2009 meet with everybody who attended !
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Hi Mark ,
it`s shown in the first picture in the post "Reply #242 , Feb. 19.2011 " , page 17 .
You can see the "2" cast into the right of the locating fin on the oil filter cover .
This is exactly as shown in the Service Bulletin #13 , 1/26/70 . Also , I have 2 of these covers (finned , internally ribbed, "2" cast )
Many thanks for sharing the #97 story , outstanding presentation .
Best Regards
Geir
Thanks, I was confused and thought the #2 was on the smooth oil filter cover. So the #2 finned cover is the latest (last) version of the finned cover?
Hi Mark ,
as I interpret it : the internally unreinforced covers were prone to cracking around the oilfilter bolt hole ( yes , the cover on my VIN5120/E5306 has cracks ) .
To remedy this , Honda made an internally ribbed cover with cast mark "2" , to replace covers from VIN1783 ? -9554 . It`s reasonable to assume that bikes after VIN9554 was fitted with these upgraded covers .
Later bikes has higher numbers cast in , I have "7" , "3-1" , "3-2" , probably from K2`s and up .
The #13 Bulletin states " All original center bolts should be replaced with the modified center bolt at the earliest opportunity " . For the covers : " All oil filter cases should be checked for hairline cracks around the center bolt boss when installing the new center bolt . If any cracks exist , replace the oil filter case with a modified case " .
So with no apparent cracks , the covers survived the upgrade , the 14mm bolt didn`t .
Luckily ,some bikes also escaped the upgrade completely....
Cheers
Geir
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KP, if you are still reading then we seem to have our wires crossed.
I cut your sentence short because it was more a paragraph but incuded the link if there was curiousity to the subject. However had I included it, the meaning was still what I was illustrating. At one point you would not have painted your cases 'prior' to more information coming to light. I don't see how I tried to recover - I found your original point as you asked. I wasn't saying you still stood by your original belief. Just that like many of us, we might do things differently if we had more knowledge at the time we polished this or painted that. If you still feel I'm taking a pot shot you are more than welcome to take it up with me with a PM.
My point about the 'norm' and 'exception' is that even though there might be an exception, doesn't mean it was the practice (norm) for all bikes up to that exception. Yes I agree with you - it disproves the parts bulletins or service bulletin accuracy - that's easily done - but it doesn't dictate new standards to restore to until we understand the circumstances more.
Thanks Gier for that SB info saying that 12mm bolts replaced the 14mm but unless cracked, the finned unribbed covers were to remain in place. It gives a new possibility for my bike :)
Thanks Steve S for keeping perspective on the topic.
Regards
Steven.
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Thanks, Steven ! I appreciate that. I'm trying !
But, I will admit, I still do love the drama of a good old fashioned "snot flinger" once in a while myself !
Just ask my wife; she'll tell the truth about me ! Some times I still just take myself too damn seriously.
I'm still eagerly waiting for someone, anyone to post on the "then and now" thread i started under "general discussion."
C'mon you guys. Expose yourselves for who you really are !!!!
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In the end this is how I finished my cover off:
Satin Finish, with polish marks showing
Clear coated
Porosity Still Visible where difficult to polish, and slightly to the polished surfaces.
Mine still had an area near the bolt which I believe to be a casting imperfection rather than road blast. There was no other consistent road blast on that surface so I left it after polishing. Notice similar features in the shouldered area for the oil ring groove.
Regards,
Steven
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Just a little further info on the round oil filter covers.
Two low number engines on ebay recently sparked my interest. One was a chopper with a mid 400s engine number. The other is the current mid 800's engine and matching frame parted out on ebay.
Both have had the later carb recall performed on them, however the round oil filter covers and (on at least one) the 14mm oil filter cover bolt remained. So Id say the round oil filter cover was never considered 'faulty' or targeted for factory recall.
So I'm surmising that the oil filter cover which was targeted is the early finned cover, without internal reinforcing.
Here are the pics of the chopper engine and the carbs and oil filter cover currently on ebay so the thread has a little more reference pics:
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One thing I can add is that I bought the oil filter bolt from digidave and it arrived yesterday. I can only assume this 14mm oil filter bolt was original kit with this engine. I also bought the no internal rib oil filter housing. This housing is consistent with similar housings I have acquired from mid number sandcast engines. I assume therefore that the 14mm oil filter bolt was certainly standard kit on engines up to at least 3134. In 92 distinctions this bolt is recorded to E4148 so nothing astounding there I suppose but it is interesting that some bikes had this bolt replaced whilst some didn't. Maybe a dealer thing.