Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Gauges - Levers and Cables => Topic started by: 1941wld on July 19, 2010, 04:24:56 pm
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I see a lot of tach and speedos on eBay for sale. Please tell me the difference between the aluminum instrument bodies. When did the diecast instrument first appear on the scene?
This must be a CB750 versus CB750 K0 stuff.
I want all who read this forum to understand this difference and be more knowledgeable. eBay vendors think all are the same and I don't think they are.
Thanks for spreading the information.
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I'm talking about the aluminum drive body screwed to the bottom of the instrument.
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I asked Vic W. and he confirmed there was a change in the cable drive gear housing from sandcast to die cast in late 1969. So when I'm looking at gauge for sale I can now tell if it is correct for my application.
Anyone out there has a picture of a die cast cable drive gear housing to compare?
Thanks, Conrad
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Just got an email for the man selling the speedo and tach on eBay. item #280536608894. He as confirmed that his are die cast. So these never came on a sandcast. Mystery solved! It's hard to keep up with all this information. Thanks to all you guys on this forum for recording this information.
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My diecast VIN 11970 came with sandcast drives so they were on all bikes up to at least that VIN. Vic is probably correct in that anything made in 1969 most probably had sandcast drives KP
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After reading this topic, I investigated my 9 K0 gauges and discovered that two of them have the sand cast drive/cable connection, one miles speedo and one tacho.
How rare are these?
This is a sandcast next to a diecast:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TR3ZzFchy8I/AAAAAAAADsg/DYWF7J4OV8I/s912/IMG_0363.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TR3ZzjHTubI/AAAAAAAADsk/_mmlea92m8I/s912/IMG_0364.JPG)
The tacho and speedo:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TR3Z1Co_IZI/AAAAAAAADs0/YjzAifASi1Y/s912/IMG_0370.JPG)
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Thanks for posting these additional pics.
A few years back, i put pictures in "Production Models" in the website with these 2 different sandcast drive bodies.
as well, i ??? think ??? there might be a thread on this topic elsewhere in this BB.......
As i understand it, the earlier type has a machined right angle and the later type drive has the champfered edge.
The champfered edge type drive body was used beginning somewhat early vin "K0's."
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I received a message from another member (I don't know if he wants to mention his name) and he said this, very useful info:
I suppose you are informed that the first sandcast had a sandcasted gear without bevel. Later (about #2000 and up to K0 around #12000) had a second kind of sandcasted gear with bevel. Later K0 had a diecasted gear and this gear was also used on K1 with another kind of housing/cover.
I also found a picture of the first one, until 2000:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TR81nkmAEQI/AAAAAAAADtY/TyIJjNqhBJI/sandcast%20body%20first%20series.jpg)
This one is supplied from 2000 until 12000:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TR3Z1Co_IZI/AAAAAAAADs0/YjzAifASi1Y/s912/IMG_0370.JPG)
And this one from 12000 and later:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TR3Zz_IOyMI/AAAAAAAADso/LJXQsHAg-fk/s912/IMG_0365.JPG)
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Hi all, happy new years!
Regarding the sandcast drive change from square shoulder to bevel edged shoulder, my #1853 has the later bevel edged shoulder. So they would have started being used pre-2000 VIN.
I know Mark B bought #1553 recently which gave us a 300VIN range for the 2 hole recessed and non-recessed airbox. Mark, if you see this can you pls confirm you speedo drive too?
Regards, steven.
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Steve,
Here's some pics of the gauges that were on 1553. I'm still learning about the differences here so I'm not sure what I've got yet. Hopefully you experts can enlighten me. They're not faded too badly but the speedo shows over 27,000 miles. The chrome on the bottom covers was badly pitted so maybe these are originals. Here's the speedo:
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05270.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05266.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05267.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05268.JPG)
And the tach.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05271.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05262.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05265.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05269.JPG)
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for posting pics. The area we are looking at is just below the machined thread on the sandcast drive housing. Notice the bevel edge directly below? On early models this bevel didn't exist. It was a square shoulder. Steve Swans post in another thread shows comparison pics quite clearly.
I see #1420 on eBay at the moment. I wonder what those drives are...
Regards, Steven.
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I received some pictures from Bo-Göran who is also restoring K0 gauges and he sent me this picture, that shows exactly the differences between the first and second sandcast series. The gauge of Mark's bike is clearly a of the second series.
The inner gear of the second sandcast and third diecast seems more equal and exchangeable. The wheels of the 2nd sandcast ODO are of aluminium and of the diecast plastic.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TSLOtV4qozI/AAAAAAAADu4/isGbezsf6Lc/s912/differences%20sandcast%20drives.JPG)
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Hmmm............
I'm probably missing something blatantly obvious in the above picture, but I don't remember ever seeing a gauge frame as shown on the LH side on any sandcast (or "K0.") I've had quite a few of these gauges and drives apart..........
The RH frame is the type of frame i am accustomed to seeing on sandcasts (and "K0's.")
The LH gauge's frame appears stamped steel......... ???
IF frame is stamped steel (not cast) aluminum, then the frame and gauge is later than K1.
I do reserve the right to be wrong, but i don't think i am......... (but, would not be the first time :o)
Unless, there is just something obvious i am simply overlooking or i do not understand what is written, the frame on the LH side looks like frames i have seen on K2-onward gauges...... ;D
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I agree with Steeve.
Never seen the left gear with conic screws.
The same for the counter frame, w/o alloy plate to install on the cup frame.
I can wrong, but.............????!!!!!
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I agree with Steve. Whilst anything is possible I prefer to go with what we already know unless we can identify what bike these instruments shown in the last picture can be identified. The instruments off Mark's 1553 are clearly bevel type sandcast and add a little more to pinning down type to which VIN.
I've added some pictures to add clarity for the information of members
Hope this helps fellas KP
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_1.jpg)
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_2.jpg)
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_3.jpg)
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_4.jpg)
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does someone have a gauge without bevel and put some pictures here? It would be helpful to determine the right drive housing for the early sandcasts.
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There are already several pictures of the early sandcast housings and I have just uploaded a post which identifies both types.
Here is the picture of an early type sandcast gauge housing
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_2.jpg)
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Here is a pictorial of the later die-cast gauge housing which are easily identified by the acute angle of the casting just in front (or just behind) ;) of the thread for the cable ferule. Several pictures from different angles. KP
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_5.jpg)
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_6.jpg)
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_7.jpg)
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There are already several pictures of the early sandcast housings and I have just uploaded a post which identifies both types.
Here is the picture of an early type sandcast gauge housing
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/GAGUE_2.jpg)
I posted this picture earlier ;)
I meant, if someone post a picture without the chrome cover, we can see the complete drive housing
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I don't know why I didn't think of it until now but I'll dig out my gauges for 97 and post pics of them.
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I don't know why I didn't think of it until now but I'll dig out my gauges for 97 and post pics of them.
Sounds great, Mark.
And there will be much more surprises, I think. It is unbelievable how many differences there are with the CB750 and there are only a few people who do care about it. But it is exactly what makes an oldtimer interesting. And expensive :D
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Here's my gauges from #97. Doesn't look like there's too many surprises here. At least (if I understand correctly) they appear to be the earlier, correct for this VIN ones. Thanks for the education.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05297.JPG)
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05298.JPG)
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WOW Mark,
another confirmed discovery.
Also the cup/frame is different, it's nerved in the base, around the gear location.
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Thank you Mark,
When I compare this one:
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05298.JPG)
With this picture:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Iwudks3e4io/TSLOtV4qozI/AAAAAAAADu4/isGbezsf6Lc/s912/differences%20sandcast%20drives.JPG)
Then is Bo right that the left drive housing is a very early one.
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Mark, That is a really a good bit of info. If the gearbox is as Bo has identified that makes 3 very different early drives. When you clean these up can we get a another picture. The speedo backplate as identified by Riccardo is interesting also. This restoration project of 97 really is amazing KP
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Now,
it's necessary to update the trhead of 89 MODEL DIFFERENCES.
These go to 90!!!!!
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Now,
it's necessary to update the trhead of 89 MODEL DIFFERENCES.
These go to 90!!!!!
Let's not move with too much haste. We have no information on the gearbox pictured by Lecram. Bo I would ask that you join in with this thread and give us some additional information on the gearbox as pictured as there is no history to go on or detail as to which bike this is from. Let's see some clearer photographs of Mark's instruments as we do know they are off VIN97
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Yes,
we go with solid feet on earth.
Marcel, please retrieve more pics from BO, of complete gauge after and before unassembled, if possible also the vin of this (early??) bike.
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Hi all.
Sounds like we have started something up. Tomorrow I´ll make pictures of the gauges of my restored #388, #609 and hope it will bring some help. Next week I´ll recieve #849 and then I´ll check how the gauges on that one looks. If they are of the first peculiar kind I´ll make photos of them during the whole restore.
In a month I´ll recieve #421 and there might be something interesting to.
Bo
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For what it's worth here are the original gauges from 576, cobwebs and all!
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/gauges_internal.jpg)
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I seem to recall someone telling me or reading somewhere (possibly from ChrisR) that in later years, replacement K0 spare, genuine Honda part replacement, instruments were fitted with different internals to the originals shipped with actual bikes throughout its life. May just have dreamt this however ::)
Cheers
Ash
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Ash, you remember well,
in the last months was on ebay some NOS gauges for K0, Honda replacement last production but with central gear like K2.
One of those was sold by Vic World and one by Sandguss.
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Hi all!
Today I´ve made photos of all 4 kinds of gauges. They are posted with my comments to Marcel and there has also been sent a copy to KP. I´m not familiar with attaching photos to my comments so I decided to ask KP to show it on this side in perfect english so everyone understand what I mean. If you all spread this out I really hope we´ll find attached photos to all gauges on ebay showing the gear too. Then it´s much easier to find what we are looking for but I also expect the prices on early models to raise.
Thanks to all who have participated in this discussion, Bo from Sweden
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Bo did a very great job to us all. I will post his pictures and comments here. It shows exactly the differences between the gauges.
Thank you very much, Bo! Well done.
His comments:
1. First kind, sandcasted, used #1- at least #388, has a special metalbase and a the first kind of gear. There might be other differences but I´m not going to disassemble my gauges at this time to figure out. You can´t use later bases and gears together with these parts.
2. Second kind, sandcasted, used at #389? - #1500? Second kind of metalbase and a second kind of gear. You can exchange all later gears with this kind of gauges. I mean, if someone finds a brand new K0 gauge with a diecastgear, it´s possible to exchange gears and get a NOS gauge with the second kind of gear.
3. Third kind, sandcasted, used from around #1500 – high #11000. Third kind of gear and the same metalbase as second kind. Exchangeable with second kind as mentioned above.
4. Fourth kind, diecasted, used at high 11000 and the rest of K0 models. Since most of this kind was produced there might be some brand new of these stored somewhere out there. Exchangeable with the second kind as mentioned above.
The pictures speak for themselves:
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::) ::) ::) That's really good information and certainly a significant distinction Bo. Thanks for sharing this information. KP
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Thanks BO!!
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Thank you Bo, for the GREAT pictures and description !!!!
WOW ! It's always so wonderful to uncover and learn these new details......... ;D
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Hi guys,
The photos of Bo's #609 and Waynes #576 might show the approx. Cross over point between the late shouldered non-bevelled sandcast drive and the bevelled edge sandcast drive. Waynes bike has the bevelled edge type and bo's, the shouldered type, even tho they are off a slightly later bike.
Let's not forget the speedo/tacho faces in this discussion too. I have photos of a sandcast drive speedo/tacho faces. The back of them is not the plain white version I have seen on later KO gauges.
I'll post pics if this dreaded rain ever stops! Maybe Bo has noticed these as well and would care to comment.
Regards,
Steven.
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OK. This has been a good thread and some differences have been noted with the sandcast clock gearboxes. I thought I would check my clocks off VIN11970 to see what they would reveal I've found another gearbox difference which I've not seen before. These clocks are the original clocks off VIN11970 and the bike was unmolested from new. You will note that this pair of clocks sport different gearbox castings. I have identified the differences with the casting.
Now he's my thought and they are just that.
Bo's early clocks are certainly unique and we can assume these were only fitted to early bikes. You will note with the other clocks pictured that some have a sort of bevel casting just at the point where the threaded area for the cable knurled knob attaches (see Bo's VIN 5119 and Wayne's VIN 576), yet others simply have a casting without this bevel (Note my clocks and Bo's VIN 609).
Seems to me that these instruments, and which gearbox they have fitted is a random event and not related to early sandcast bikes (at least after VIN388) versus the later production bikes up to VIN11970. The molds boxes and dies used to fill with the casting sand needed to cast these gearboxes would have been many and I suggest, also varied, thus we see the subtle differences between castings. The acute bevel type seem to be on early VIN and later VIN bikes so I wouldn't like to say what should come with what.
Anyway, I posted this for those who find the subject of interest 8) KP
(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/IMG_0103a.jpg)(http://cb750k0only.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/IMG_0107.JPG)
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It is very interesting, Kerry. I didn't notice it before. The sandcast gauges I have do have the gear as shown on the left gauge on the right picture. I am curious until what VIN they have been mounted.
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Hi, a my friend is owner of a diecast 11/69 with VIN about 14000 and he have the gauges with the sandcast gears, late type.
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On Ebay, a set of unrestored sandcast gauge has been listed and 1 day and 5 hours before end the price raised to $795! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160537655604 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160537655604)
I have sold a restored diecast tacho for $458 on Ebay, so I am curious what people will pay for a restored sandcast. I currently have three sandcast gauges to restore.
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On Ebay, a set of unrestored sandcast gauge has been listed and 1 day and 5 hours before end the price raised to $795! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160537655604 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160537655604)
I have sold a restored diecast tacho for $458 on Ebay, so I am curious what people will pay for a restored sandcast. I currently have three sandcast gauges to restore.
These are being sold for $1500!!! :o
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Hi Guys, while doing a listing for a sandcast gauge (pls see for sale section if you are interested), I came across the promised 'rear of face plate' photos from another gauge I had as spares.
The speedo and tacho face plates had paint on the rear which seemed to act as a light mask. I was wondering if any other members have noticed this.
Regards,
Steven.
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i have opened several sandcast and K0 gauges and they all have face plates with a light blue/green backside, the color of the plastic plate.
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i have opened several sandcast and K0 gauges and they all have face plates with a light blue/green backside, the color of the plastic plate.
I've the same experience, some faces are with the rear side in ice blue(early) and others are with the rear sid in green and white (late models and diecast expecially).
All the early models (sandcast gear) are the grommets in black on the lights diffusers, the late model (diecast) have white grommetts.
The black grommet are very resistant in the years but the white grommets are highly crackable in the years.
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These face plates are from sandcast gauges- off an early sandcast bike. I have never seen any like this on all the other diecast gauges I have done in the past. The jewel hoods were black also. So I guess another sandcast production anomaly?
Regards Steven
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Thanks for the info guys this is very interesting, Yes the Early gauges had black hoods then the white hoods that fall to bits and then later the K1 gauges went back to the black but longer hoods, also i believe the numbers on the odometer wheels vary is size and font from the early sandcast to the later K0, Regards Tom
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Thanks for the info guys this is very interesting, Yes the Early gauges had black hoods then the white hoods that fall to bits and then later the K1 gauges went back to the black but longer hoods, also i believe the numbers on the odometer wheels vary is size and font from the early sandcast to the later K0, Regards Tom
The couter's digits have different size in the year.
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I thought I would share this with you. Have a look at the speedo and tachometer drive on this bike. Assuming that the instruments are original to this bike, these are the straight/flat edge type sandcast gearbox drives. KP
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180655580221#ht_1949wt_922 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180655580221#ht_1949wt_922)
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KP,
I can see by the rubber boot on the master cyliner that he does not have the correct brake hose on it. Looks like the ones you are selling with the short straight fitting on the hose. See how the boot is bent down straight instead of swing out at an angle like the original ones.
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Yes. I don't think this guy and his restoration are top end. His triple tree painting is terrible so I suspect the rest of the bike is similar. I think the bike is relatively original though, well it was until he got his hands on it.
Interesting he has used the SOOC website and the reference to his bike being listed in the directory as somehow being endorsement of the bike and his restoration. The directory merely records the VIN and Engine numbers and really not any form of endorsement. I'm not sure what his reference is there for other than to maybe somehow give legitimacy to the listing. Personally I think the price is too high b
ut then if someone is willing to accept the drivel as written, he may just get his price. ;D
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It easy to spend 7 to 8k on a restoration for a 1969 or 70 sandcast or K0.
When you are finished, you will have two bikes that have the same horse power (67 hp) and feel the same on the road.
The great thing about the K0 is if you have to lay it down or hit car and total the bike you only lose $9,500 or $10,000 bike, but if you do the same to your sandcast you might lose up to $41,000.
So for me, I love my sandcast. it's a great bike, but more so an investment.
As for my daily rider, that will be my K0.
This man selling his K0 was hoping for $15,000.00 in the beginning , now he is down to $10,000. With very little work, this bike could be a perfect K0 and I feel it is well worth the 10k for someone who does not do their own work. When you have to pay someone to work on your bike, it becomes a very expensive hobby.
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In addition to the discussion about the differences in drive bodies, I found another difference between early and later diecast drive bodies. The earliest has a more beveled neck, just under the thread. The later drive bodies, which are also applied to K1 and K2 gauges are more straight.
See this picture:
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Hi, a my friend is owner of a diecast 11/69 with VIN about 14000 and he have the gauges with the sandcast gears, late type.
Thanks for that info, I have 14,100 with diecast gearboxes. I also have one type 4 as shown here, sandcast gearbox with the bevel, oddly it came off of a K1 gauge.