Beginning to End - Member Restorations => Restoration of Sandcast #97 => Topic started by: markb on November 01, 2010, 05:55:31 pm
Title: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 01, 2010, 05:55:31 pm
I've finally started this project after picking the bike up this past spring. I spend my summers boating and fishing and do little if any work on the bikes. I've got two other 750's that I've restored, an early diecast and sandcast #5383. I'm going to post this on this forum and the SOHC4 forum so some posts by me will be identical but the replies will probably steer it in different directions so I'm not sure how that will work out. But I figure that way I can get feedback from two different audiences. My goal is to make it as correct as possible which I realize may be next to impossible because of the rarity of some of the missing parts. There's plenty of work to do and plenty of missing parts. I'm looking for all the advice I can get and if anyone has a part that I'm missing and you can part with please contact me. I know they won't come cheap. So for my first post, here's what it looked like when I picked it up last spring. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/002.JPG)
What a great motor number (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC03953.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 01, 2010, 06:41:33 pm
Thank you, Mark, for posting your fine work. Your story of this bike will be fascinating.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 02, 2010, 07:44:36 am
First thing is to start the tear down. I hoisted the bike up and dropped the front wheel and the three exhaust pipes that were there so I could put it on my cart. I have a stand but it only puts the bike 18” off the ground and I hate kneeling and bending over. The pipes disintegrated during removal. I soaked all the nuts and bolts with a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF. I’ve used it before and seems to work great. It separates though so you have to keep shaking it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04806.JPG)
It must have been set up as a cruiser. It has old running boards and crash bars. I’ll get rid of those first. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04822.JPG)
Then I pulled the front end, fender and forks. The headlight bucket and ears were completely broken as well as the speedo. Good thing I have one of those. Looks like someone took a baseball bat to them. I think the tach is salvageable. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04813.JPG)
The tops of the fork tubes look pretty gnarly. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04828.JPG)
At least the front fender is correct and solid. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04810.JPG)
It looks better without all the junk and broken parts on it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04826.JPG)
It’s missing the kick-starter so I put one on just to see if the engine would turn over. Nope. Tried moving the shifter too. Nope. After that I drained the oil…and water. A cup of water came first then about a quart and a half of oil. Nothing in the oil tank (although it is well coated inside with a layer of oil and dirt) or oil filter housing. Ruh-roh. Not a good sign.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on November 02, 2010, 08:01:36 am
You are in a very exclusive part of sandcast territory with your 2-digit "project" - I will be fascinated to follow the progress. Looks like the frame and cases are sound, so the rest of it is just a matter of time and patience (money permitting of course!). Have fun! - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 02, 2010, 08:43:16 am
I agree, I'm glad it's not my first project. And yes the frame is unbelievable good and except for heavy oxidation the engine looks great-no broken or bent fins, etc. Feel free to jump in if you have any suggestions. I'm far from an expert but I might be close when I'm done. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 02, 2010, 02:56:52 pm
Just a bit more history before I get too much further. The license plate on the bike was 1979. The seller told me that it had been sitting and then an attempt was made to get it running again in 1986. They never succeeded because they couldn’t get the carbs right. So, I was told, it sat in a barn (don’t they all) until he obtained it. (If it was in a barn it was a leaky barn.)
Anyway, one of the first things I discovered was it had the 19 liter tank and in pretty good shape at that. The badge recesses had been filled in and unfortunately the cap and short-neck petcock were missing. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/290.jpg) By the way, does anyone have a short neck petcock they could sell me? This is a high priority for me because it is one of those really visible things.
Note the lack of dimples in the area where the carbs tops are. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/288.jpg)
I could tell from the bottom of the tank that it was originally candy red and after some debate I decided to keep it the color it was born which happened to be the same color as my later sandcast. It’s already been internally derusted and coated and repainted and looks great. Blake Conway who did my others did this one too.
My K0 was the blue/green so I put that tin on the other sandcast (so I could have one of each color) and I plan on using the red where I need too and borrow parts off the K0 so I can maybe get #97 put together while I hunt for correct parts. Eventually I’ll probably do the K0 in gold (even though the VIN is a little low for that). Can’t even think of that right now.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 02, 2010, 03:48:34 pm
Mark You can bet I'l lbe following this project closely as I work away on mine. I think if you keep your pictures on PhotoBuxket at around 700 pix wide max we won't have to scroll around here to see the whole image.
I tested one at 681 pix wide here: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=228.msg1901#msg1901
Sorry for the hijack, just want this thread as pretty as that bike will be! :)
I uploaded Coppermine image gallery on our server if you want to try it for hosting your images.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 02, 2010, 05:46:59 pm
No problem Wayne. Thanks for the heads up. I have a wide screen on my computer so it wasn't an issue. I've resized them. Do they fit better now? I'll check out Coppermine. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 02, 2010, 06:27:43 pm
Mark, you likely already know about Forking by Frank - http://www.frankmain.qpg.com/ You can replace those rusty fork legs with a beautiful new pair from Frank, they are a perfect fit install.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 02, 2010, 06:44:26 pm
No problem Wayne. Thanks for the heads up. I have a wide screen on my computer so it wasn't an issue. I've resized them. Do they fit better now? I'll check out Coppermine. Mark
Perfect for everyone now Mark. You can find Coppemine on our server at: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/
You just get the link to the pic by viewing the full size image, right click it and go to properties.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 03, 2010, 07:53:01 am
Steve, I actually didn't know about Forking by Frank. That's the main reason I'm posting this in hopes that I will get great advice and feedback. I'm willing to listen to any comments. Thanks for the heads up! Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 03, 2010, 04:51:33 pm
Frank's been making fork legs since the mid 60's
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 04, 2010, 01:51:13 pm
Mark, I like Aero Kroil penetrant made by Kano Laboratories, it's been around before WWII. Getting some Aero Kroil inside the spark plug holes or between the pistons and the the cylinder walls after the head is removed along with giving the penetrant time to do it's work might at least allow for easier dis-assembly. I know some guys have their home brew of penetrant as well, i cannot remember what's been said to work well. Assuming the engine is not locked up from running out of oil (your story sounds like this is not the case) and if the bike sat on it's sidestand, most likely the #1 piston is "stuck" the worst, as water/condensation tends to run down hill.... I've had engines that were locked up, along with squirting routinely Aero Kroil into spark plug holes, i put it in 5th gear (i realize you may not be able put the transmission in gear, perhaps if you take of rear chain and try moving front sprocket back and forth you may be able to get the gears to engage) then i looped a cranking type tie down strap thru the wheel and frame, applying pressure to wheel to apply pressure to primary drive and to crankshaft. Periodically, i would loosen strap, rock wheel back and forth and then apply tension to strap again along with more Aero Kroil. With the one engine, after about 3 weeks of this treatment, things started turning. In the case of the other engine, began turning after a few days. Not being able to free the pistons from the cyl.walls, i have seen somewhere (on the internet) guys that submerge the entire engine in a penetrant bath, in order to free things up. I understand there are restorers who have use these penetrant baths for these "frozen" engine conditions. It's going to be pretty important to free the pistons in order to remove the cylinder without risking damaging parts.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 04, 2010, 02:19:47 pm
Steve, More good advice. I hope to start pulling the engine apart this weekend. Checked out Frank's, $259/set. Sounds pretty good compared to $398 from Sudco and $333 from Honda and I'm not sure they'd be correct. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 04, 2010, 03:46:11 pm
i was able to use the orig.tubes for 4363 & 2157, but 232's looked like 97's, so i bought a set from Franks for 232, the machine work and fit is perfect.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on November 04, 2010, 10:54:33 pm
Frank's fork tubes are very nice and essentially identical to the OEM parts but they do have a Forking by Frank logo etched on them near the top. The logo is hidden by the headlight ears when assembled so it's not obvious. Another difference is Frank's tubes are chromed full length as are the current OEM tubes which may render this issue to be irrelevant.
I always believed the original tubes, at least thru the mid 70's, were not chromed full length. The chrome only extended to just above the steering stem clamp area. I may be wrong on this as I have had a couple of guys swear that their early tubes were chromed full length. Maybe some were and some were not.
Back in the day, insurance companies would not pay for new tubes if they were only "tweaked" and could be "straightened". I personally straightened many a tube on v-blocks with a dial indicator on a hydraulic press and only saw full length chrome on models without enclosed headlight ears. I guess you could argue that the enclosed headlight ears trapped moisture and caused oxidation to occur in that area even if they were chromed. However, many of the damaged bikes I worked on were really new and wrecked by newbie owners.
Keith
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 05, 2010, 08:23:56 pm
Keith, I'm with you on this. I've never seen a set of K0 tubes chromed full length KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2010, 06:36:11 am
So that brings up a good question. Are Frank's forks OK for a "correct" restoration or should I try to find some decent Honda replacements? Makes sense that the top half deteriorates if its not chromed. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2010, 12:01:48 pm
I’m about ready to pull the engine out of the frame. Good time to inventory what I have and don’t have. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04842.JPG)
Here’s the 19 liter tank all nicely painted. Did I mention I was looking for a short-neck petcock? Anyone? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04829.JPG)
Some of the other big goodies are: Rolled rear rim (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04808.JPG)
Double cut front fender (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04838.JPG)
By the way, are the stays supposed to be straight? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04837.JPG)
2-hole rear fender (it appears to have a larger rolled edge that later fenders?) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04830.JPG)
I have the original carb bodies with the horizontal vent tubes (top). (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04831.JPG)
I was lucky enough to pick up another early set complete with original (not repro) 28 tops, correct adjusters and rubber caps and a repro 5mm cable. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04833.JPG)
The top fork clamp is supposed to have a 23mm nose. Not sure what that is. Can someone explain that to me? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04834.JPG)
Smooth rubber oil lines. I think they may be restorable. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04835.JPG)
Early brake caliper with knurled screws (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04836.JPG)
Pointer-less kill switch knob control and master cylinder without oil level line (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04839.JPG)
Early brake line fork with short neck oil lines. Not sure if I’m going to be able to salvage them yet. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04840.JPG)
The frame is for a LH horn. It that extra gusset for the steering damper? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04841.JPG)
Center stand without the gusset (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04843.JPG)
Also I understand that the lower fork clamp, oil tank and swing arm are supposed to be date stamped for this vintage. I’ve looked them over and found some numbers and letters but they don’t appear to be dates. Any of you sandheads able to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2010, 12:05:38 pm
Now the missing stuff.
It was missing the brake pedal (early one without the stop screw), exhaust of course and left hand horn. Over the summer I scored on NOS brake pedal and NOS LH horn. For the exhausts I got a set of reproduction Lotus Roots with baffles (arguably the biggest visual item on the bike to have correct). A group of us from the SOOC club got together and got Yamiya to make a bunch for us. Thanks again to Steve Swan for helping make it possible. By the way, there may be extras for those of you with VINs up to 4148. I was missing the kick start and gear shift lever but some used ones that I’ll rechrome.
Other stuff I’m missing: • Short-neck petcock (high priority) • Front and rear footpegs with (I can find these) • 146mm rear footpeg bolts (I can machine down the 148mm bolts and replate them) • 11mm stem rear-view mirrors (high priority) • Recessed ignition switch (worst case I’ll borrow the one from my K0) • Ignition switch bracket (I can find one of these) • Finless oil filter cover (I have one with the fins turned off that I’ll use if I can’t find one) • 2 hole air box without reliefs (I trying to find out if LPM can supply a cover without the inner holes drilled and I think the mounting brackets can be modified for an exact copy) • Side covers (worst case I’ll use my repros) I’m sure there are some more little things that I’ve overlooked for now.
I’d still like to find: • More smooth rubber oil lines • Brake lines • Tach and speedo cables with the short knurled nuts • -040 harness (I’ve got an extra in pretty good shape) I know some of these are probably impossible to find but if anyone has a “spare” tell me how much you need for it and we can probably make a deal.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 06, 2010, 01:12:44 pm
Hi Mark,
Thanks for posting, your documentary will be a thrilling saga !
The obscure missing parts, fuel tap, mirror stems - All i can say is, Patience, Perseverance and Persistance, it's like fishing Mark, keep throwing out the hooks ! Holding on to the "3 P's", I eventually landed an original like new early seat (before Yamiya was making them) and i eventually landed the 19 litre tank. (Not to mention E254....!) I bought a pair of mirrors and blinkers from same fellow atthe same time i bought the the seat from him, this was late 2005. He said the seat, blinkers and mirrors were taken off the bike he bought new in early 69 to "chop." Both mirrors/stems had identical (minimal) patina, appeared to be a 'matching' pair. However one stem is 11mm and the other is 10mm. (Same as what Chris Rushton found on his 302.) (I'd be surprised if Honda knew or paid attention that some stems were larger diameter than others, when it came to waht parts went on what bike while being on the assembly line........)
Measured at it's narrowest point, the nose (separates tach/speedo and attaches both rings w/ single screw) should be 23mm.
The rear fender bead on 232 is larger but not as protruberant as bead on 2157 or 4363.
The gusset appearing to accomodate a steering damper is almost as inexplicable as the 6mm threaded hole on the early seat pan. The gusset does suggest Honda had given thought to a steering damper (as seen in pictures of non-production machines.)
I don't recall seeing what looked like date markings on lower triple clamp, reportedly there are markings. There are also stamped marking on the underside of gas tank tongue, again, don't look like dating methods i am aware of. Wonder if these markings are a production batch markings.......
Date stampings located (as i recall) on, 1. swing arm are on underside of LH arm, pretty much immediately aft of pivot, 2. oil tank are on actual tank, next to inside of top rear bracket.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2010, 02:09:18 pm
Some of you might notice that there have been edits on my posts that contain pics. I was just changing the source of the pics. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 06, 2010, 04:06:45 pm
I'll take some pictures of the 23mm horn as opposed to the early tree but in the interim here is a picture of the 2 units horn to horn ::)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 06, 2010, 04:33:07 pm
Mark, Have a look under the top triple tree and tell me if there is a number cast in the alloy in one of the recesses. Mine has a #4A on the underside. Here is a picture. Also the brake caliper has the early spacer between the halves. I remember reading somewhere that the very early calipers had a spacer added as the discs were a little tight on the early bikes. Could have been read on this board as Chris Rushton knows this sort of detail, but I did read it. As to the fender stay, yep should be straight.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 06, 2010, 05:02:38 pm
I find it interesting, confirming and unsurprising 97 has both oil lines smooth fabric, same as 232. Chris's 302 has one webbed and one smooth line.
As far as finding those RARE parts, Mark....... Scour ebay routinely and frequently.
If you could find an early vin parts bike........ I got a really nice set of early brake lines off 2157 for 232, but now i need a set for 2157......... ! :o
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2010, 06:21:34 pm
KP, Where do you measure the 23mm vs. 25mm? I'll check for that marking tomorrow.
Steve, The oil lines are smooth but really don't have a fabric covering. I'd call it rubber coated.
Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2010, 06:30:25 pm
A couple more notes before I forget. Most of the hex bolts were big 8's with what appears to be a dull finish. There were some exceptions. The three bolts on the top fork clamp were flat and appeared to be chromed which I think is correct. One oddity was the 4 bolts that bolt the front fender stay to the fork lowers. No 8's and they look chrome too. The other was the screw that holds the gauge rings together. The early part book (7/69 I think) shows a phillips screw and mine was a no 8 chrome plate hex head. Who knows if they're original. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 06, 2010, 09:02:53 pm
Yes, early oil lines definitely rubber coated over a smooth smooth fabric.
You can see really good pics of 232's smooth lines in the "Restoration/Technical Support" part of the website. They appear same as yours and are same as Andy Dixon's 175 oil lines.
Interesting, on the chrome appearing finishes of the four 6mm lower fender brace "8" bolts. Who knows when these bolts could have been plated, i.e., from the factory -or- later on ? The really good part on your bike is we are seeing for the first time details of the earliest vin yet given to public view. The down side, is, we have no vin close to 97 to compare it to. It would be nice if members with vins closest to yours would participate in this discussion. The three 8mm upper triple clamp bolts i have seen on any sandcast are plain head, chrome plated.
I can say, 232 had all it's bolts (all early 8's) except the two 8mm pinch bolts for the center stand pivot pipe. There were no chromed "8" bolts. On another note, the special bolts fixing brake line banjos were chrome plated on the early bikes, not zinc as per later.
Speaking of "8" bolts........ Are your 4 special shouldered 10mm bolts fixing rear sprocket to the carrier, "8" type ?
The 69/4 parts book shows a the typical Phillips fillister head screw fixing the ends of the 2 gauge rings together. I don't know how i could debate the "8" bolt fixing your clamps together is not correct, but it is extraordinary to the convention of experience and literature. Do you have a copy of the 69/4 parts book ? 69/7 book was the next printing after 69/4.
I have an incredibly clear and detailed color factory photograph (enlarged to 16x20 from a 3x4 (commercial size) slide transparency) of which appears obviously to be an early production (grey horn) red sandcast. Also, numerous small b&w pics (as nowhere else) seen in the 69.6 "Set Up and Pre-Delivery Instruction Manual." As well as numerous pictures from 24 different magazines from March 69-Apr.70. When i "took delivery" of 232, i studied these pictures very closely, searching to compare what i found on 232 and to discover "what i thought" could be considered correct and original to early prod.bikes. I don't remember seeing anywhere an "8" hex head bolt holding the instrument clamping rings together. Again, in these magazines, these are pictures of probably (only) no more than 2 different early production bikes loaned to magazines for testing and evaluation. One was red and one was blue-green, of which the latter was more photographed in the magazines than the former. The Apr.70 Cycle Guide Magazine documents the blue-green bike was engined by vin E24 and also notes in the road test article the Cycle Guide testers did not have access to the bike until after other magazines had completed their testing of the bike. This road test was one of the better (b&w) photograped tests a well as had the machine shown on the back cover in full color, as noted on our SOOC home page. In contrast to all the other machines to roll off the assembly line, we don't know what parts they were fitted with. So, like i said earlier, not sure how i could otherwise debate an "8" head bolt fixing those rings together is not correct.
Whew. i don't know what i wrote is that helpful.
When it comes down to it, all we can do is share our first hand observations, compare to literature and make assumptions.
And so, again, "THANK YOU " Mark for sharing your #97 with us !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 06, 2010, 10:03:31 pm
Mark, i just noted what appears to be "the dot" (appearing faded red) on the RH side of your upper crankcase, pretty much directly accross from the vin pad. It's interesting, seems, in past, members have noted some cases have these dots and others do not have dots. the 2903/E3032 bike on ebay has same dot, only blue. as i recall someone saying, these dots are only 2 different colors......... someone, sometime ago, suggested the dot was for the body color designation the engine as to be fitted to................
none of the cases i have ever owned have ever had this dot or even a trace of having had a dot. but i have seen the dots on engines i have not owned
anybody have a red dot on a believed original b-g machine or a blue dot on a believed original red machine ?
Also, KP, referring to the spacer in caliper, what do you mean by spacer ? i have never heard about a spacer, but that does not mean anything. Specifically, are you referring to "holder,caliper" pn 45115-300-030 ? Are you saying there is an early and a late version of this part ? (69.4 parts book) My 3 other parts books, 71.2, K2 (print date unknown) and 74.1 all call for the same pn for the same part for vin #1 through end of K2. Or, are you talking about a shim of sorts in addition to the "holder, caliper" ? (Of course, we know the parts book is not an exhaustive reference source for these small differences made on the assembly line.)
232, 2157 and 4363 all came with what appeared to be the original caliper setup, but i did not notice differences in the caliper holder. And i will admit, i was not looking for a difference.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 06, 2010, 10:25:42 pm
Mark, I've gone and dug out 2 from my stash of top triple trees. The narrow horned tree is from an under 1000 VIN bike. I have another narrow tree off VIN 1683. The wider horned tree is from a K1 although this tree is common to all K0s including sandcast from about VIN2000. You will see that the width of these trees varies by 2mm. I would suggest that given the powder coating each of the widths unpainted would be 20mm and 22mm respectively. I have also included photographs of what I believe to be date stamps on the underside of the tree. Kawasaki and I believe Honda used the Hirohito (?spelling and name) dating system on many of their parts. This system uses the birth date of the emperor as the base line in which 1969 is the 44 year from the emperors birth. Generally the full 44, 45, 46 etc is not used rather the last digit is used ie: 4, 5, 6 etc. My view is that these numbers are manufacturing dates. The use of the letter after the numeral is generally the month. Many Kawasaki parts are dated this way ie: disc rotors. so using this method the code 7H represents September 1972. Moving this theory to my triple tree numerals I have January 1969 (4A), March 1969 (4C) and March 1971 (6C) trees. Anyway here are the pictures of what you need to know Hope they help cos I aint digging this stuff out again ;D I might even post this in the technical section. What do you reckon :-\ KP
Mark, i just noted what appears to be "the dot" (appearing faded red) on the RH side of your upper crankcase, pretty much directly accross from the vin pad. It's interesting, seems, in past, members have noted some cases have these dots and others do not have dots. the 2903/E3032 bike on ebay has same dot, only blue. as i recall someone saying, these dots are only 2 different colors......... someone, sometime ago, suggested the dot was for the body color designation the engine as to be fitted to................
none of the cases i have ever owned have ever had this dot or even a trace of having had a dot. but i have seen the dots on engines i have not owned
anybody have a red dot on a believed original b-g machine or a blue dot on a believed original red machine ?
Also, KP, referring to the spacer in caliper, what do you mean by spacer ? i have never heard about a spacer, but that does not mean anything. Specifically, are you referring to "holder,caliper" pn 45115-300-030 ? Are you saying there is an early and a late version of this part ? (69.4 parts book) My 3 other parts books, 71.2, K2 (print date unknown) and 74.1 all call for the same pn for the same part for vin #1 through end of K2. Or, are you talking about a shim of sorts in addition to the "holder, caliper" ? (Of course, we know the parts book is not an exhaustive reference source for these small differences made on the assembly line.)
232, 2157 and 4363 all came with what appeared to be the original caliper setup, but i did not notice differences in the caliper holder. And i will admit, i was not looking for a difference.
I think I may be dreaming Steve. Given I play with Kawasaki Z1's I think it was the early Kawasaki that had a shim. I'll go look. It's just that the caliper bracket looked different in close up. I'm dreaming yes that's what it is :o KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 07, 2010, 09:11:48 am
The 69/4 parts book shows a the typical Phillips fillister head screw fixing the ends of the 2 gauge rings together. I don't know how i could debate the "8" bolt fixing your clamps together is not correct, but it is extraordinary to the convention of experience and literature.
Actually I stated that the bolt holding the clamps together was a plain chrome hex bolt, no 8, but still different than the parts book. So in a "correct" restoration does one go by the book or how it was found?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 07, 2010, 10:30:27 am
sorry, i missed that. My experience, any depictions or photos in manufacturer's manuals are not reliable for drawing conclusions as to originality. The owners manual's descriptions of procedures is one thing, but pictures used to depict these procedures is another. If you were restoring 97 using pictures from the owner's manual, we'd all go nuts, it's loaded with pics of the early pp bike. The Parts Manual's sketches show certain parts known to be from the pp bikes. Remember, Honda had to have these manuals avaliable at the same time the bikes were to be made available. The only parts Honda had for artists to HAND DRAW their sketches for the parts book were likely some ofthe very first parts produced.
As i see it, this is why we cannot soley rely on the literature. We must rely on each other for the observations we share to make the best assumption possible what may be correct parts.
To answer your question, Mark, i guess it would be nice if we heard from other members with these lower vins, but in order to hear from these members may require emailing them, to learn more.
We know the parts book shows a Philips head screw, not a hex head screw. We are not yet aware other machines having a plain face hex head screw fixing the rings together. All the picutres i have seen in all the literature i have, does not show any bike having a hex head screw holding the rings together. It's hard to imagine Honda would use a hex head screw to fix those rings, if for no other reason than it would not look very nice. But the hex head screw is present on your bike. i guess th hex head could be used until the time it could be more clearly 'proven' a Phillips head was used.
Myself, i would probably use a Phillips head, as the hex head would make me a little nuttier than i already am.
BTW, your 6mm BOLTS holding the starter cover on....... Are they flat head or acorn head ? Andy Dixon's 175 came with acorn head NUTS fixing the starter cover and acorn nuts fixing the 6mm blinker body bolts to blinker stems. When Andy removed his starter cover at last year's meet, there were 2 pieces of thread's all in the 6mm holes which the acorn NUTS attatched to. As far as everyone knows, looking at the parts manual, acorn head BOLTS are depicted to fix cover to case. Yamiya sells acorn head BOLTS. I have a pair on 232, because i like 'em, but not because i believe they are correct. I also have acorn head NUTS on the 6mm blinker stem bolts, because Andy's 175 has them, but there has been much discussion by several people (who i consider more knoweldgeable than my self) who suspected the bolts were added on by some proud owner after the bike left Japan. O well, these issues with bolts are small details and can easily be changed out at any time.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 07, 2010, 11:08:35 am
I got some answers, maybe.
My parts book is the 69/4.
I checked the bolts that came off the fender stays and they were 20mm long. Should be 12mm according to the book. I'm guessing they're replacements.
The hex head that held the rings together is a 5mm. Not many of those (if any) used elsewhere. Still could be a replacement though.
One other bolt I forgot to mention was the special hex head, phillips drive screw for the oil line to the crankcase. All four bolts on 97 were big 8 hex bolts - no special.
I'll get a pic of the dot on the upper crankcase but mine is definately white.
Haven't got to the sprocket bolts yet.
Starter cover has hex bolts.
I measured the upper fork clamp and it is just under 20mm. Obviously an early one. Here's a pic of the "date stamp" on the bottom. A little hard to see but is 3A. Does that tranlate to January 68? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04855.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 07, 2010, 11:20:59 am
The 4 bolts on the lower lines should all be "8" heads, no Phillips as on later machines.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 07, 2010, 11:39:28 am
The 69/4 parts book calls out a special. Do you know the cutoff number?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 07, 2010, 11:39:46 am
The engine is out. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04849.JPG)
I know this is a sandcast but I didn’t expect to see sand in the exhaust ports. I think ants or some other insects were living in it. I saw webs and dirt with tunnels in the intake rubbers. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04852.JPG)
The 3 screws on the breather cap wouldn’t come out (using an impact driver) without rounding them out. They’ve be soaking for a week but it obviously can’t get to the threads. I had to resort to drilling off the heads. I use a ¼” drill and stop when the head pops off. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04848.JPG)
Then the cover came right off. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04850.JPG)
Fifteen of the valve cover screws came right out but I had to drill the last three. With a little tapping with a soft hammer the cover came off. Note the cross-hatch pattern on the inside of the cover. I’ve never seen that before. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04853.JPG)
Now the bad news. The valve train is quite rusted. A good place to stop for the day (last night). I soaked everything up real good and will let it sit overnight. Hmmm. I might have to look for a donor engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04854.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 07, 2010, 11:55:48 am
Mark, this is so VERY VERY VERY exciting !
Cross hatching inside the cam cover !!!! wow !
I LOVE THOSE EXHAUST SPIGOTS WITH RELIEF !!!!
Chris and i suppositioned only the very first engines had that type of exh.spigot fitted. As i recall, Andy Dixon's 175 does not have these relief type spigots fitted.
Whew. the engine is a rusty >:(. must have sat outside for a long long time. >:( i know you will go slow. there will be guys who can offer parts to replace what is rusted beyond usefulness
i can't answer on the screw, the parts book calling for a special. i am sure my memory serves me correct, there were no phillips screw holding lines on to case. but, i may be remembering wrong. i will look at 232, as the screws that are fixing lines are the screws which came with the bike.........
we need Chris Rushton on board. i've emailed him to weigh in
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on November 07, 2010, 03:29:58 pm
Hi Mark,
Very interesting stuff - making your project public via the BB has got some great discussion going. MORE OF IT PLEASE FROM MORE MEMBERS.
A number of comments to make... A couple of misquotes have occurred re. my #302/E338.... Mirrors - it came with only one mirror, that being an 11mm stem one. I have no reason not to assume the other mirror would also of been an 11mm stem one. Oil lines - BOTH are the early plain, no fabric covering type on E338. (I previously owned #1256 / E665, a correct factory pair, which had one plain line and one favbric covered line).
Also, all four lower oil line bolts were number 8 bolts - no "special" as per the parts list.
That valve cover is pretty neat, never seen one of those before.
Good to know the early relieved exhaust spigots went at least 100 into production -only previously seen those on a pre-production bike and engine #5.
A comment was made regarding use of replacement fork tubes, ie, should they be used if they are repro's and fully chromed / carry a manufacturer's logo (where it can't be seen) DOES IT REALLY MATTER?! for an item like this which cannot be seen. Sure if NOS was available, that would be the way to go, but they can't be seen anyway. Many of us are glad to be able to fit Yamiya no number exhaust pipes, which are about as visible as it gets (and not actually 100% accurate detail wise...!) , so why not repro fork tubes of known to be great quality that you can't see anyway.
Restoration is all about compromise, and lets not kid ourselves - no restored bike is going to be 100% factory correct unless we can find every part NOS made at the same time as the factory made the original parts for production. Oh, we also need to fill the tubes with japanese air too!
Couple of other items... You should find that the 6mm bolt at the rear of the cylinder head is a "special" (not a #8), same as the four under the sealing caps beneath the cam carriers.
Short ferrule cables - it is possible to shorten the ferrule on the later cables to achieve the correct "look" - if I can figure out how to post apiture, I wll do so later.
Keep at it - brilliant so far - Chris R
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 07, 2010, 06:59:44 pm
Thanks Chris, for clarification on the details of your 302 !
I use my lathe to shorten the ring nuts on the tach/speedo cables. My procedure works perfectly.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 07, 2010, 07:07:15 pm
The cam, rockers arms and cam holders are off. I cut the cam chain so I could rotate the cam. It’s going to get replaced anyway. Hardest part was getting the 1-2 holder off. I tapped on it for an hour. I think it was more hung up in the stud holes than the knock pins. Believe it or not I had one of the cam holder bolts snap off. After I got the holder off it turned out with my fingers. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04857.JPG)
There is one bit of bad news though. I discovered a crack in the 3-4 holder. I’m thinking it might have happened when I tapped the rocker pins out. They moved but they moved slow. It might have been there before too. Who knows. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04870.JPG)
Other than that, things didn’t look as bad as I thought they would. Here’s the cam. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04860.JPG)
Closup on the cam lobes. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04861.JPG)
And the rocker arms. No rust on the working parts. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04862.JPG)
Then came the head. I took off the rubber pucks (just might have to replace them) and took out the four special screws below them first (for those who don’t know always do these first). They came right out. At first I thought my socket wasn’t engaged because there was no resistance, on all four. My guess is the PO tightened them first and then the main nuts and that’s why they were loose. By the way, only one of the four had a Phillips drive. Then I did the nuts in reverse tightening order and the special bolt on the rear side. The head pulled right off. Note the interesting stud layout for the cam holders. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04859.JPG)
The head looks pretty good too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04864.JPG)
Even the cylinders didn’t look to bad. I got her soaking now. I’ll pull of the rotor cover next and see if I can turn it over in a couple of days. Maybe I won’t need a donor engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04863.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on November 08, 2010, 07:39:46 am
Shame about the crack in the holder, it being an early sandcast one. No doubt repairable though.
Looks like the head has been off previously judging by the later headgasket with hole at the front of the can chain tunnel, and orange sealing rings at the 8 studs which oil drains down, so maybe someone else is responsible for the crack?
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 08, 2010, 08:31:38 am
There is plenty of evidence that this engine has been open before. I could blame the PO for the crack but I won't I've got access to a machine shop so I'm thinking of trying to repair it. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 08, 2010, 02:33:14 pm
Mark, Wow! This is interesting stuff and probably one of the most interesting posted on the board for some time. Can I make one wee suggestion. When undoing these very old nuts, bolts and parts, use a butane torch or better still, MAP gas to heat the area up first. Get the areas very hot and let it cool down. This generally breaks the bond between the two surfaces. If not then repeat the process. you will generally save the part breaking and save much time and effort. Aero Kroil as Steve suggested will actually work into the areas more efficiently with a little heat. My engineering mate told me this one and he makes some of his lliving from unsiezing seized part. Keep the photos and story coming, as this is great Thanks again Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 08, 2010, 05:52:08 pm
Thanks for the "hot" tip. I have done that but usually as a last resort. I always do it when I'm removing studs and never had a problem getting them out. Good idea just to do it on everything when an engine is this bad. No down side to everything coming out easier. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 09, 2010, 02:13:26 am
Mark, Sorry about the post. Looking at your workshop why wouldn't you know to do this. Shouldn't have told you how to suck eggs ;D KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 09, 2010, 09:04:35 am
Working with rusty steel in oxidized aluminum can be nerve wracking. We've all twisted something off at some point in time or we haven't worked on 'em. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the cylinder block removal. I am infatuated with those exhaust spigots and the cam cover cross hatching !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 09, 2010, 10:57:34 am
Mark, Sorry about the post. Looking at your workshop why wouldn't you know to do this. Shouldn't have told you how to suck eggs ;D KP
Don't be sorry! I may know to do it but the fact was I wasn't doing it and should be. And because of your post I will be now. This is certainly the most challenging project I've had so any advice is appreciated. Especially with everyone watching, I want it to be right. By the way that's my work's shop. Just lucky enough to have a little corner I can work on my projects. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 09, 2010, 03:48:02 pm
Yes indeed Steve, they are amazing finds. And the treasures yet to come :o
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 09, 2010, 06:24:53 pm
Well, since Mark's given us permission to beat our drums........ ;D
I LOVE KANO LABS AEROKROIL !!!!
I've used it for 30+ years and a dear freind of mine used it since it came out in the 40's.
I've seen it make "frozen" ancient rusted stud removal look miraculously easy, in cases where the stud would have twisted off. I've also used it on rusted ancient struds that were twisted off, of course then having to use an EzeOut with heat. Using AeroKroil, i've never had a "frozen" stud refuse me.
Can be ordered on line - http://www.kanolabs.com/
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 10, 2010, 10:58:20 am
OK, you talked me into it. I've got some on the way. I'll weigh in after I've had a chance to check it out. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 10, 2010, 06:40:47 pm
Cool ! Let me know what you think !
When the stud is removed, you can see the AeroKroil has penetrated it's way along the threads. Usually, i give the part to be removed 1-2- or 3 soaks, depending on how rusted, i will wait anywhere from a couple hours to a few days. Helps to have some exposed threads. Where there's no exposed threads, such as in the case of a Phillips or a hex head, it's more difficult for the penetrant to make it's way in. In these cases i still use AK, but i give more than one application, apply some heat inbetween applications, after AK's had a chance to penetrate. Once the object of affection has loosened, depending by feel, before attempting removal, i'll squirt some more AK, then turn back and forth and squirt, and turn, so forth and so on, til the part comes free. But, where there's a stud going into the object or a nut on a stud, it always does the job.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 11, 2010, 06:46:30 pm
I haven’t had much time this week to work on the bike but in anticipation of trying to free up the engine this weekend I decided to give the cylinders another good soaking. While I was wiping out the cylinders I noticed a 1.00 stamped on one of the pistons. Ruh-roh. A quick check revealed the same thing on the others. I measured the bore to make sure but yes they are oversize pistons. I almost had to laugh. Cylinders 2 & 3 are down and the cylinders don’t look to bad. Numbers 1 & 4 don’t look so good from what little I can see. So maybe I’m thinking too far ahead here but assuming the worst and the cylinders are not good what are my options? Replace the jugs, resleeve and rebore to stock, or go bigger yet (is that possible)? Either way I replace the pistons. Keeping in mind a fairly exact restore, is an oversize bore acceptable? I’d like opinions guys. One more question, anyone ever split the case, remove the bottom of the connecting rods and pull the cylinder with the pistons in place? Thanks, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on November 12, 2010, 07:46:29 am
Mark, For me, re-bore during restoration is not an issue. That said , I have never had one at +1mm, therefore requiring non Honda oversize pistons. My personal preference would be to re-sleeve, or replace the jugs to be able to stay within Honda's own range of piston sizes. Each to his own in this sort of area for me, and after all, when its done, only you have to be satisfied with the result.
If pistons are seized, I ALWAYS do what you suggest - ie, split the cases, undo the bearing caps and reomve the block with pistons / rods attached. At least that way you can deal with the pistons one at a time (and hopefully some of them will be free anyway) rather than risk block damage, bent con rods, etc, going the other way.
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 12, 2010, 10:08:49 am
Before i replaced the cyl.block, i would want to make sure there were no differences between #97's cyl and a later one used of some other sandcast. That seems the easiest solution and i'm like Chris, i don't see boring to o.s an issue.
Re-sleeving to std is certainly the option of choice for originality's sake.
the 3rd option i can think of would be to use an 836 kit........... That's a pretty radical measure for remedying the problem, especially considering we're talking about #97.......... The power would be really cool and the sound out the LR's would be equally cool, especially if the head was flowed ot match the 836 kit. I'm having the head flowed on E2241, but nothing else. I actually thought of having the cyls bored to an 836, but hated to do that since they only needed to be taken to 1st o.s.
I've re-sleeved 2 different times, both on single cyl. 500cc engines. The procedure is not difficult, but how a person is going to remove the sleeve and then drop the new sleeve in, the procedure must be thought out step by step and carried through accordingly. One does not want to get a sleeve stuck sideways in a bore or not pushed all the way home.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 13, 2010, 11:54:43 am
Well, things aren't getting much better. I got the transmission cover off OK but wasn't happy with what was underneath it. I guess that's what I should expect. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04891.JPG)
I've got all the screws out on the rotor cover but one. It's stuck part way out. I was hoping if I could loosen up the cover I could get some rust loosener down by the threads. I wonder if this is the hole with the pin. I soaked all around the gasket edge hoping that will loosen it up. I've got a funeral to go to now so I'm going to let her soak. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04890.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on November 13, 2010, 12:41:48 pm
Mark: The hole with the screw still in it, is not the one with the alignment pin. The one with the alignment pin is the forward one of the two screw holes on the bottom of the alternator cover. Mark if you can tap the cover away from the cases and apply some oil or light film of grease to the screw shaft and threads if showing. Tap the cover back into place, tighten and un-tighten the screw several times until it comes out. If all else fails remove the screw head and slide cover off and deal with the stud by it's self without possible damage to early thin lipped alternator cover. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 13, 2010, 06:00:20 pm
I like Marty's suggestion of removing the screw head and removing the cover. If you don't go that route, then in addition to what Marty suggests, I would also heat the case in the area the screw is threaded into. And, since you've ordered AeroKroil, i would wait until i had the AeroKroil to squirt on the screw where it goes into the case, after you've separated the cover from the case. When i have these stubborn screws, if there is room, i will get on them with a ViseGrip, that way there is no back and forth "slop" one would get using a screw driver. Using a ViseGrip, I can actually feel the screw threads turning in the aluminum, taking care to also watch the entire screw turn, making sure it is not only twisting the exposed area of the screw. Using a Visegrip makes it easier to feel how much torque to apply to avoid twisting off the screw. The screw is not going to be useable after you've removed it anyway. Using a screw driver, it's impossible to feel the screw turn one way or the other. In addition, it could help to to lightly tap the end of the screw, anything to disturb the debris 'cementing' the steel threads to the aluminum threads, especially, at this point, to turn the screw back in. Those threads are about a 90% fit, so there's not a lot of room to move the screw in the threads that are full of debris from rust and oxidation. AeroKroil, heating, tapping and turning the screw back and forth a 16th of a turn with a ViseGrip, repeating the procedure is what would be safest. Since you were able to turn the screw part way out, it's obvious the screw can be loosened. The problem now is, in turning the screw out, the debris of rust and oxidation has piled up in the threads of the hole and the screw CANNOT turn out any further. Attempting to turn the screw out any further, will increase the risk of twisting off. The screw needs to go back in, at least a lttle bit, before it can come out any further.
Brother....... ! Looks like that engine was sitting in a lake.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 13, 2010, 08:50:24 pm
Quote
Brother....... ! Looks like that engine was sitting in a lake.
Hey Mark, Steve's right; so it's no good going any further with the project. Can you ship the lot over to me. I'll be happy reluctantly be able to take it off your hands ;D ;D ;D. Seriously It's exciting following this project KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 14, 2010, 09:27:43 am
Brother....... ! Looks like that engine was sitting in a lake.
The owner claims it was a barn find. I just think it was behind the barn!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on November 14, 2010, 12:00:21 pm
Mark,
It seems that maybe the oil was drained out of it. Otherwise, the parts inside the transmission cover wouldn't be rusty. I am curious to see what the gears look like after you split the case. I hope they are in good usable condition. I am sure you will do fine on the restoration. You have experience and it's a labor of love. I have my sandcast restoration just about complete. Everything is done, except for assembly. My bike will be both blue/green and red. I have a freshly painted blue/green set done and will be getting the red set painted very soon so that I can change the color of the bike each season. That way, I don't have to buy two sandcasts. Remember, any heartache you go through, do to the rust, etc. issues will be long forgotten when you have your early VIN restored. You are a very lucky guy to have such a low VIN. I feel fortunate to own a sandcast too. 4646.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 14, 2010, 09:04:30 pm
Warning: some of the following photos are graphic and are not for everyone.
It took a while but I got the rotor cover off. Didn’t want to break this one. Not pretty inside. Had to cut the head of the screw off to do. It still doesn’t want to come out. More soaking and more heat and try later. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04892.JPG)
The clutch cover actually came off quite easy. More horrors though. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04893.JPG)
Flipped her over and got the pan off not too much trouble. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04895.JPG)
Here’s the top half. The cases split too without much trouble although the countershaft bearing holder was a PITA. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04897.JPG)
And the bottom half. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04899.JPG)
Close up on the gears… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04900.JPG)
…and the other half. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04898.JPG)
They look bad but actually I don’t think there as bad as they look. After wiping off some the “gunk” on the surface there’s shiny teeth underneath. I need to get everything apart and inspect everything more closely but I hope and can save most of it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 14, 2010, 09:14:17 pm
It seems that maybe the oil was drained out of it. Otherwise, the parts inside the transmission cover wouldn't be rusty. I am curious to see what the gears look like after you split the case. I hope they are in good usable condition. I am sure you will do fine on the restoration. You have experience and it's a labor of love. I have my sandcast restoration just about complete. Everything is done, except for assembly. My bike will be both blue/green and red. I have a freshly painted blue/green set done and will be getting the red set painted very soon so that I can change the color of the bike each season. That way, I don't have to buy two sandcasts. Remember, any heartache you go through, do to the rust, etc. issues will be long forgotten when you have your early VIN restored. You are a very lucky guy to have such a low VIN. I feel fortunate to own a sandcast too. 4646.
Joe K.
There was about a quart and a half of oil but also water. I think the bulk of it might have leaked out the drain plug. It wasn't the correct one, which reminds me, I have to check out the threads in the oil pan. I have to keep telling myself all day how lucky I am. :D Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on November 14, 2010, 10:51:54 pm
Mark: Believe it or not most of the rust and gunk will be removed with a good cleaning. The motor no doubt had allot of moisture/water in it at one time. The finished product will be well worth your time and effort, especially with your bike having very early vins. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 15, 2010, 03:37:00 am
Mark, Yippee-Ky-O The amazing thing is the lack of any damage to the cases or the front sprocket area. That's a BIG plus for E100 There are some items that will be critical to retain such as the crank but I personally would try and keep as much of the transmission as possible just to keep authenticity of the engine. We are so fortunate to be given this pictorial tear down and commentary I come home each day and go straight to this thread just to see what new adventure has been taken or to be treated to another morsel of new information. :o I'll bet the rusty-tin from over the pond is also watching with ..................................... antic............................................................ipation ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 15, 2010, 06:18:20 am
I forgot to mention there was some good news. The nuts on the con rods came right off and I pulled the crank out. Number 2 & 3 pistons slid right out by hand without much force (they were at the bottom) and they look great. The seller did say that it had been rebuilt before it was parked (abandoned) and it doesn’t look like it had been run much after the pistons were put in. The rings were loose and no carbon on them. Both 1 & 4 are loose but didn’t want to come out yet. I wasn’t going to force it. I’ll soak them for a couple more days. Still working on getting the jugs off too. If the cylinder ends up looking OK I’m considering using it and the oversize pistons.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 15, 2010, 05:27:19 pm
Marty's right. Alot of what is seen is likely rusty scum over a film of oil on the actual parts. Areas that have less exposure to an oil film such as clutch could have more rust, but would be good to bead blast the metal clean to see what rust damage actually exists. The other more concerning areas would be where the parts were in water for sustained time or where the water/oil levels met.
The most important areas where we can hope there's no damage are load bearing areas, i.e., cam lobe faces, bearing journals and/or any other surface that bears or distributes a load.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 15, 2010, 07:19:52 pm
I went to take another stab at getting the cylinders off. Maybe it’s my imagination but it seems that the top machined surface of the cylinders is closer to the top fins than I remember. I’m not sure how well this photo shows it but the machined surface is barely higher than the fins. Is it possible this surface has been machined? Anyone have a cylinder that they can accurately get a dimension from the top machined surface to the bottom surface where it sets on the case? Or better yet, the depth of the two counterbored holes on the rear, center studs? They seem shallow to me too. Thanks, Mark (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04901.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 15, 2010, 08:25:53 pm
Mark I don't have the measurements but I'll throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth. First, measuring against another casting may not get you your answer. Castings, especially sand castings are not twins of one and other. When the parts are machined for final assembly the "deck height" is established at that time. In wedge style combustion heads that sets the "quench" or "squish" area for the heat transfer between piston and head. In a "hemi" engine like the SOHC there is no such thing as the flat "quench" area so the whole piston head serves as a heat transfer agent to the hemi combustion chamber.
Being that you have OS pistons I'm wondering if someone didn't shave the deck to up the compression a bit more?? It's an old trick we used to use when racing stock motors and an easy one on overhead cam engines as it didn't screw up the valvetrain geometry. If you got torn down it was unlikely you would be caught.
Having said all that I'm not sure if the service manual covers deck height/piston to valve clearance or not. Even if it is shaved, and your clearances/tolerances are OK you should be able to run it. Compression will be a bit higher than stock. You might be able to offset it a bit if you can find a thicker head gasket. Lots of times aftermarket gaskets tend to be thicker than OEM.
Now if someone has a measurement for the man I'l lbe quiet. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 1941wld on November 15, 2010, 09:13:36 pm
Hi Mark, In looking at your insides, the best product I've used on rust is saferustremover.com. It will not harm chrome or paint. It will remove rust from parts rusted together. It's $100 bucks for 5 gals. I just soak my parts for till the rust is gone. Parts previously seized together just fall apart. I would put the whole motor in the solution and watch the magic. Your suck bolt will be free. It's amazing.
Conrad
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: magpie on November 15, 2010, 10:07:15 pm
Mark, I can't measure it because the engine is together but this is a picture of the cylinders of engine 260. It does seem to have more of an edge or lip than yours. This probably confusing things more. Cliff.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on November 16, 2010, 04:37:37 am
Don't know if this is any use but on my Diecast K0 (Oct 69 1010382) the depth of the counterbore is 0.93mm on rear two centre stud holes and the height of the machined surface above the fins varies between 0.8 and 1 mm
Brilliant posts by the way Mark. I 'tune' in each day to see your progress!
Best regards
Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 16, 2010, 06:42:56 am
Thanks for the great feedback guys.
I've used that Safe Rust Remover before, thanks for the reminder.
I'll measure those counterbores tonight.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 16, 2010, 08:39:50 pm
Mark After thinking about it, if you do want to change your deck height because yours was cut down it would be done via the base gasket. You can get different thickness's here: http://cbrzone.com/gaskets.html
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 23, 2010, 08:57:24 am
I had stuff to do last Saturday so I was only able to work about 4 hours on Sunday. By the way, that brings me to about 66 hours on this project including the time to drive to Oklahoma and back to pick it up, looking on line for parts, teardown, posts here, everything. I’ll be interested to see what I have into it when it’s done. I don’t think I’m going keep track of the money though, it would probably make me quit. Maybe after I’m done with this project I’ll take up a cheaper hobby like horse racing.
I did get the cylinders off and the pistons come out quite easily after several cycles of heat and soaking with Aerokroil (highly recommended by Steve Swan, it seems to work really well). The #1 & 4 bores don’t look so good and the #4 piston has some scuff marks on the piston pin sides of it. I’ll post some pics after I get them cleaned up. I didn't get around to measuring the c'bores but it sure looks like less than .93mm. Still weighing my options on what to do with the oversize cylinders and pistons.
I’m having a hell of a time getting the starter motor out. After a couple of soak and heat cycles I’ve managed to move it about 1/8” but I don’t want to tap on it too hard. I did get that broken rotor cover screw out. After more heating and soaking it came out easily with no thread damage. I also got one stud out before I ran out of time.
Here’s a question for the restoration purists, how do you feel about using the APE heavy duty studs? I’ve used them on my last two projects because I wanted to do everything I could to make sure I don’t have oil leaks.
Here’s where I’m at. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04965.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on November 23, 2010, 09:53:39 am
Hi at all,
Steve and Chris,.... :o....please note the sign where was the DOT sticker on the upper cranckcase.
Those cases do not was damaged by chain.
The owner has found the dot on the upper crankcase? What colour was? ??? Red or b.green? The sticker colour match with the colour of the bike? Or it was lost?
Regards
Riccardo
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on November 23, 2010, 01:31:31 pm
Be interested to see how you get on taking those two short centre studs out Mark!!
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 23, 2010, 07:00:59 pm
I’ve had a couple of comments about the white dot on the top of the upper crankcase. If you look at the first pic there’s actually another smaller irregular spot near the left, top mount. Are these marks some kind of factory mark? Is the irregular one just a mistake? The round one looks pretty deliberate. I’ve heard that on earlier sandcasts there was supposedly either a red or blue/green dot to indicate the bike color. I scratched on it to see if was another color underneath but it’s definitely white all the way through. Could it have bleached out? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04993.JPG)
Here’s a close up of the round one. It looks like paint and it’s fairly thick, I can feel an edge on it. It looks a little wrinkled too. Like it was maybe applied with a dauber. If it is a factory mark I would like to duplicate it. Anyone have any theories? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04995.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 23, 2010, 10:42:11 pm
Mark I'll post a picture of the "dot" on my crankcase when I get a chance. Mine is definitely blue/green. I know for a fact that the bike was red when purchased. Unless mine is an anomaly that blows the red bike, blue bike theory out of the water. I can't imagine why engines would be designated by color anyway. (except that red bikes just plain go faster ;) ) Colored dots were used in automotive production as well. Perhaps a little research will turn something up.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 24, 2010, 04:59:38 am
I had stuff to do last Saturday so I was only able to work about 4 hours on Sunday. By the way, that brings me to about 66 hours on this project including the time to drive to Oklahoma and back to pick it up, looking on line for parts, teardown, posts here, everything. I’ll be interested to see what I have into it when it’s done. I don’t think I’m going keep track of the money though, it would probably make me quit. Maybe after I’m done with this project I’ll take up a cheaper hobby like horse racing.
I did get the cylinders off and the pistons come out quite easily after several cycles of heat and soaking with Aerokroil (highly recommended by Steve Swan, it seems to work really well). The #1 & 4 bores don’t look so good and the #4 piston has some scuff marks on the piston pin sides of it. I’ll post some pics after I get them cleaned up. I didn't get around to measuring the c'bores but it sure looks like less than .93mm. Still weighing my options on what to do with the oversize cylinders and pistons.
I’m having a hell of a time getting the starter motor out. After a couple of soak and heat cycles I’ve managed to move it about 1/8” but I don’t want to tap on it too hard. I did get that broken rotor cover screw out. After more heating and soaking it came out easily with no thread damage. I also got one stud out before I ran out of time.
Here’s a question for the restoration purists, how do you feel about using the APE heavy duty studs? I’ve used them on my last two projects because I wanted to do everything I could to make sure I don’t have oil leaks.
Here’s where I’m at. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04965.JPG)
Mark, I'm a purist and would use stock, BUT, If the eye don't see it then the purist cannot grieve. ;D KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on November 24, 2010, 11:19:19 pm
Mark,
I think the heavy duty engine studs are the way to go. I used them on my sandcast motor. You can always keep the stock one to keep with the bike/motor. I would rather use the heavy duty studs to possibly prevent oil from leaking in between the valve head and piston head.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on November 24, 2010, 11:22:57 pm
Concerning the dot on the rear of the sandcast motors.... does anyone have contact with the guys who gave the presentation of the inception of the CB750 at the 40th anniversary meet last year? Maybe one of them may remember the reason.
Mark, maybe yours is white because it was a white sandcast police bike. Even more rare. Just kidding.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on November 25, 2010, 05:17:32 pm
Hi,
the DOT is really a mistery.
In our previous email contacts, with Steve S. and Chris R., we have elaborated many theories:
1)the DOT was, on the line factory, the sign for the final colour of the byke, to create a balance of the colours or increase the production of the colour most needed by market, really we have seen until now only the red and the b.g. DOT; 2)for the theory of the owner/seller of a couple of crankases, appeared on ebay many months ago, he says that the dot was on the bike because the cases was damaged by the chain and returned repaired by Honda and this was the mark of the repair;but this man is the one who has a story about the DOT; 3)the doubt remains because we have seen red dot on b.g. bike and b.g. dot on red bike, sometime the colour of the dot match with the colour of the bike; 4)now there is also the withe DOT and the mistery is very total in this moment. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
I think that the better think is ask suggestions by Bob Jameson & C. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 25, 2010, 05:23:54 pm
Riccardo and Mark Although the dot may appear to be white I'm wondering if it didn't have some color pigment when it was applied. If you have a look at mine it is apparent that it was blue/green but as that goes away a white foil type surface presents itself. As I stated in my thread, 576 is a red bike and I can verify that right back to the original owner. It's a mystery. ??? ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on November 26, 2010, 03:38:27 pm
I think that the dot is an adhesive/sticker of some sort of material that is white. Honda probably had these applied with the red or blue/green paint. Finally, applying them to the engine as identification for the final bike color. Wayne and Mark's red and/or blue/green color has simply worn off as can be seen on Wayne's engine.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 26, 2010, 03:57:47 pm
I think that the dot is an adhesive/sticker of some sort of material that is white. Honda probably had these applied with the red or blue/green paint. Finally, applying them to the engine as identification for the final bike color. Wayne and Mark's red and/or blue/green color has simply worn off as can be seen on Wayne's engine.
Joe K.
Joe I think you are partially correct in that the substrate material is white with a color applied to it. At least in my case it does not coincide with the final bike color. My dot is Blue/Green. My bike is (was) Red. The Red color is documented right back to the original owner and clearly shows on all of the painted parts for the bike. 576 is a Red Bike with a Blue/Green dot.
Perhaps we need to move this to an new thread so as not to take away from Mark's work?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 26, 2010, 09:22:23 pm
After looking at Wayne's dot I agree that it probably had a color on it at one time. Which color, who knows? I don't mind the discussion here about the dots but starting a new thread may be helpful to attract other comments. I can start one if I get a chance or if someone wants to, go for it. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 26, 2010, 10:10:33 pm
After looking at Wayne's dot I agree that it probably had a color on it at one time. Which color, who knows? I don't mind the discussion here about the dots but starting a new thread may be helpful to attract other comments. I can start one if I get a chance or if someone wants to, go for it. Mark
Any further discussion on the Dots will go here: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=383.msg2103#msg2103
Thank You.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 30, 2010, 02:36:20 pm
Didn’t get anything done over the Thanksgiving weekend except pick up another bike. I got an early VIN (15xx) that has the shortneck petcock and 2-hole airbox that I’ve been looking for. The brake lines are better than the ones I have but I don’t know if they’re good enough yet. So my list is getting shorter but I’m still missing one big item, the smooth oil filter cover. Anyone have too many laying around and would like to sell one? ;) And I might use engine parts like the cylinders if I end up needing that. I still haven’t decided what to do. Also I haven’t decided what to do with the new bike. There are a few smaller bits I’m going to use for now and maybe this will end up being my next project and I’ll have to start looking all over again. Probably won’t be able to make it as correct as I’m trying to make 97 but for sure I’m going to keep the cases and the frame together.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on December 01, 2010, 02:39:12 am
PLease, Please, Please, don't let me ever get a Sandcast!! It's been a nightmare sourcing bits for my K0 and I think something like a 'Sandcast' would 'tip me overthe edge' with obsession. It seems that once you guys get one Sandcast you then become serial SC collectors :)
On the airbox, why don't you all get together as a group and approach LPM in the UK for him to reproduce you a few Sandcast airboxes from his prototype style tooling. I approached him a couple of years ago to produce small quanties of 'can crusher' body mouldings, which I designed for one of my customers and he was really receptive. He told me he spent his life designing and producing automotive mouldings, when he worked for Rover cars. From memory the owner is John and his son is Martyn. They were fairly large mouldings and he was busy at the time so I went with a rapid prototyped sample from 'The Product Workshop' in Rotherham UK (not too far from ChrisR) They made me silicone tooling from the original RP Chinese sample I had, which yields betwen 10 and 20 products. The latter process produces a surface finish which will even reproduce a fingerprint from the original moulding but the product is 'cast' and hence rather brittle. LPM use a form of hard polyurethane I believe.
Of course, if the part has to be original and in the fragile Styrene type plastic, then non of the above is of any use to you. Just a thought!!
Cheers
Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2010, 08:45:58 am
Ash, Yes my wife thinks I have a disease. Fortunately she's a pretty good sport about it. I like your idea on the airbox. I've been satisfied with their 3-hole airbox. I might try to contact them. If someone beats me to it though I wouldn't have a problem with that. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 01, 2010, 02:33:38 pm
Fellas, I contacted him last year and he can make a 2 hole version of his current air-box so there is no problem there it would seem. I didn't ask him about rigid plastic but I agree it would be great if he could produce one in a similar material and look. The biggest problem we have is that there are 3 versions of the K0 airbox. Early, middle and late. Bottoms are all the same but the tops differ significantly KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2010, 06:17:56 pm
I've started a separate thread about the 2-hole airbox to see if there's any interest to get together and get some made. Here's the link: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=386.0 Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2010, 07:43:39 pm
I just had a huge surprise. I knew the bike I picked up had a 2-hole airbox. I never even looked to see if it had the reliefs because I assumed it wouldn't because it's a later number (1553). I took it off tonight and it doesn't have reliefs!! Even better it's in incredible condition. I was kind of bummed out when I got home from picking it up all the way from New Jersey to Minnesota, because our house had been broken into. This doesn't make up for that but it helps. One thing I need input on. The center part is stuck to the top. I didn't try very hard to separate them. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting them apart without damaging them? I don't have my camera with me but I will post pics as soon as I do.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 01, 2010, 07:51:03 pm
How about trying some AeroKroil....... ? Or, WD40 ? Both these penetrants should be benign and not cause damage. Not sure what other fluid or solution i would feel comfortable using, without fearing damage........... Hopefully the paint is just sticking the parts together and the center is not "glued" to the top from gasoline vapors. Goes w/o saying, the plastic material the body parts are made from is BRITTLE.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 02, 2010, 06:21:16 am
Caustic soda will dissolve the paint and not affect the plastic. Try a mild solution first. This usually unsticks the stick. If you are afraid to do that try straight white spirit vinegar, or straight hot water ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 02, 2010, 06:50:04 pm
Here’s pics of the 2-hole, no relief airbox. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one in this good shape. Too bad it’s the wrong color. Minor detail. By the way it’s much greener than the pics show. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05041.JPG)
Closeup of the corner with no relief. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05042.JPG)
I haven’t tried separating the middle from the top yet. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05040.JPG)
There are a couple of small cracks here but very repairable. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05043.JPG)
Doesn’t show up in the pic well but the bottom is slightly warped. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05039.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 02, 2010, 07:36:38 pm
WOW! It looks to be in awesome shape Mark. Again, nice find!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on December 03, 2010, 02:49:38 pm
I'm guessing those two marks on the upper were caused by the frame tubes? That's why they relieved them, even if only to make it easier to fit them new in the factory without damaging the paint.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 03, 2010, 04:00:20 pm
Chris, You are correct, that's exactly where the frame tubes are. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on December 04, 2010, 01:37:59 pm
Mark, also i've an air box without relief. After repainted i've protected it with 3M clear film to prevent it by damages from frame. Mark, dont try to remove the separator, it was cemented with the upper part from factory. Infact you cannot find it in the part list as spare part available. In the part list you can find the upper and the lower part only. Dont try to extract, there are many possibility of cracks. I've repainted it with the upper part, togheter.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 04, 2010, 02:26:39 pm
Hi Riccardo, You're right, the separator is not listed until K1 models. None of the hardware inside the upper half is shown either supporting your observation. I looked at it again and it is loose on one side. I think I might try soaking it warm water just to see if the glue separates but if not I think I will follow your advice. Thanks for the heads up. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 06, 2010, 09:04:27 pm
I hesitated posting this because I figure I might get some “I told you so’s”. But maybe someone will have some good input so here goes and I know I’m not the first one this has happened to. I had some time over the weekend so I decided to work on getting the starter motor out and tackle the studs. I took it slow and worked on the motor for about an hour and finally got it out. On to the studs. I already had one out and had been heating and soaking all week. A couple were a little stubborn so I heated and soaked them and moved on to the next ones. After about another five hours, everything was going good until I got to #14. I use a vice grip and if it slips I know the stud is still too tight. This worked on my last two projects and never had a problem. This one actually moved about a half a turn and SNAP. Son of a…. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05055.JPG)
Here’s a close-up. It broke off about an 1/8” above flush. That’s the good news. I’m still thinking about what to do but I think I will make a bushing that’s c’bored on the bottom the diameter of the stud and a smaller hole drilled through the top so I can get a pilot hole exactly on center. Then drill out the stud using an 8mm x 1.25 tap drill and then pick out the threads. I’m thinking I might not keep track of my hours anymore. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05056.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 06, 2010, 10:24:37 pm
Mark, if we did not do this sort of thing, we can't profess actually working on them.
As you say, getting the hole you will drill exactly on center will be key. Again, as you say, the best way is to make a tool that fits over the broken stud with a pilot hole to start the drill on exact center. I'm guessing you have lathe access to make up such a tool. Before attempting drilling, would be best if you could mark the center of the stud with a punch to prevent the drill from any possibity of wandering off center. Perhaps, after you have your pilot tool made, you could take a piece of appropriate sized drill rod, grind a point on one end, then insert the ground end of this made up punch in the pilot hole of your tool to mark the center.
The worst that can happen is you'll need to Time Sert the hole. http://www.timesert.com/
I rarely use Heli Coil anymore.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 07, 2010, 03:48:26 am
Too bad you are not in my town Mark. My good friend Mick Blake (the legend) runs a machine shop here in town and his specialty is removing broken studs fromanything. He TIG welds from the stud break and gradually builds up enough height (with weld) to clear the area and then welds a "T" handle on top of the weld. He then uses heat and "secret squirrel oil" to remove the offending slug. On another note, Mick is a Yank (one of you lot ;D ) and is called the legend by me is because he was a formidable drag racer in the USA in the early 1970s. He was a Kawasaki triple rider and rode for Denko at one time. If one can get their hands on a copy of 1975 Cycle (January Edition), Mick features in a 4 way shoot-out against a modded Turbo Honda 4 and a few other 750 triples. The famous Tony Nicosia was on one of the triples but at days end it was Mick B who had the 2 best times of the day. He lived in New Zealand for a time but now resides in my town and does most of my machine work. I have never met anyone with the knowledge of metals, welding, tuning, machining and drag bike tuning he has. Yep he is indeed an assuming kind of fellow but he does know his sh*t and has a one time Ozzie drag bike record (he tuned the bike) under his belt Anyway, thought I'd share that KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 07, 2010, 02:42:25 pm
Thanks for the tips guys.
I’m thinking ahead here a little. Has anyone ever removed item #6 in the drawing below? I took off the cap (item #5) on the other side (which surprisingly came off quite easy) and it doesn’t look pretty. I don’t know how that much dirt and sludge could get in there. Anyway to do a proper job of cleaning out the oil path it seems like removing the plug (item #6) on the other end would be helpful. My guess is it’s just pressed in. Once I get the cases stripped down that will be my next job is to thoroughly clean out all off the oil passages. Some of them are completely plugged with what looks like mud. ??? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/1022.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on December 07, 2010, 04:11:29 pm
Regarding that plug, item 6, it is only held in by the o ring in the groove around its circumference. With the cap, item 5, unscrewed, just use a long bar and push the plug out (gentle taps with hammer will do it).
Concerning your broken stud, I had a set of cases just like that. We got a piece of flat bar about a 1/4" thicker than the height of the protruding thread, and 62 long by 1" wide, drilled a hole in the middle, put it over the broken stud and welded the hole up so joining the stud to bar, and forming a "T" handle. It then screwed the piece right out (it may be that the heat during welding also broke the rust bond). Just need to make sure the flat bar is just off the crankcase face by a couple of thou or so. Avoided the possibility of not drilling perfectly dowm the centre of the broken piece and rsiking problems with the case. You coulf of course try some gentle heat cycles, use of some pentrant or otherwise, etc before the weld job. I guess worste that happens is you break the weld joint, and if that then you can set up to drill out. Just my thoughts - Good luck, Chris R
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on December 07, 2010, 04:17:32 pm
Should of said 6" not 62 long! Could do with spell check or something given my ineptitude at typing / proof reading before posting! :(
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on December 07, 2010, 05:09:24 pm
Mark,
you could also weld over the part that remains of the stud a bolt and try to unscrew it.
It's only an idea.
In this way you should have a second chance with a drilling precision job.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on December 07, 2010, 08:59:10 pm
Mark: Over the years I have had more than one stud snap or twist off. A friend of mine who is a welder put an over sized nut on the sheared stud and welded the large nut (17, 19 or larger) to the stud and cooled the area with water after about 10 minutes of cooling we removed the sheared stud(s). Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on December 07, 2010, 09:15:44 pm
Mark: As for the #6 plug at the end of the main oil passage I use a 3/8 inch piece of wood dowel rod approximatly 24 inches long and tap it out, it is only pressed in and when reinstalling can be done with your thumb and good lubricated o ring. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on December 08, 2010, 02:42:54 am
Hmm Mark , In an earlier post I suspected this would happen to the studs. One of mine broke off slightly below the crankcase level
I tried the 'welding a flat bar to the broken stud' method but it just kept breaking off and the amount of heat I put in MIG welding it, was really high, so I thought the steel/aluminium 'bond' would have broken. My stud was one of the short front centre ones.
Here is what I did. I got a piece of stainless steel tube off Ebay, which was a tight clearance fit in the stud hole of a scrap set of barrels. I found that a 6mm long series drill was also a clearance fit on the tube ID. Using a Dremel with conical stone I ground the top of the broken stud concave. I then used the dowels to locate the barrels on the crankcases and the SS tube as a long guide for the drill bit. The hole produced was perfectly concentric with the hole thread. That's as far as I have got but I also had a piece of the tube bored out to the M8 tapping size of 6.8mm but I have not yet drilled because a few SOHC4 members site tell me that I will never get a tap to clear out the hole because Honda used 'unobtainable' machine taps with a special profile. I hate the word 'unobtainable' - surely if it is a special thread - a tap could be made to match the original thread profile. So any advice on the thread profile would be helpful. Once you have drilled though the broken stud you can inject release agent of your choice down the hole and it then can penetrate upwards on the reamining thread as well as downwards. I am also told that if I drill to 6.8mm, I may we able to pick out or 'winkle' out the remainder of the stud threads after a long soak in penetrating fluid.
Perhaps if I had 'TIG' welded the 'welding a bar' method, I may have been more successfull but I feared melting or overheating the crankcases, particularly as I would have had to trust someone else to do it.
Cheers for now,
AshD
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 12, 2010, 04:57:09 pm
Some good news. My studs are out! I’m afraid I wussed out on you guys though. After much good advice I had a shop EDM (Electrical Discharge Machining) them out. I mentioned my problem to one of the guys in my shop and he suggested I just do that. Doh! We occasionally have a tap broke off in an expensive part and we just send it out. I felt the odds of maintaining the threads was better that way too. The threads look good and I did a test torque and they went to 8 lb.-ft. no problem. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05112.JPG)
Now I can move on to this mess. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05113.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 12, 2010, 04:57:54 pm
Wayne’s request for a piece of fin was pretty timely. Last weekend I was looking at my cylinders and I saw I had a broken fin too. Ash offered to send me a piece too but after reading some of the responses about fin repair I think I’ll opt for building it up layer by layer and shaping after welding. Either that or “borrow” the jugs from 1553 and repair it later. I can’t believe I missed it before. But looking at it at this angle I guess it’s not totally obvious. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05115.JPG)
But you can see it on the right side from straight on. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05117.JPG)
Here’s another closer shot. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05120.JPG)
I don’t know how it can be broken off that far in. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05118.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on December 12, 2010, 05:28:35 pm
Got your PM Mark - I agree - I think,that, looking at your barrels, building up on your fin would be the best option. You missed out on the two free large oil pump 'O' rings though!! I included them with Wayne's packet!
Cheers
Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 12, 2010, 08:09:17 pm
given the location of the missing fin BETWEEN fins, seems best to have a welder build it up. Scavenging 1553 might let you stay a smaller o.s. as well as deal with the broken fin issue. i guess the only other factor would be E100's cyl being identical or not to the cyl from 1553
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 13, 2010, 07:49:01 pm
I tried to pull out the gearshift fork shaft but it wouldn’t budge. The end of the shaft is tapped with an 8mm thread so I threaded in one of my studs to try to pull it out. The forks moved freely so I figured the shaft was stuck in the case. So I drilled a hole in a piece of bar stock and made a slide hammer. Then it came out easily with a few light taps. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05122.JPG)
Then I decided to tackle the pin the holds the kick start spindle. Normally I use a side cutter to pinch on the pin and a thin piece of sheet metal to protect the machined surface on the case and pinch and pivot until it comes out. Of course the pin gets damaged but I just replace it. No luck this time. I’ve been soaking it but being a press fit I’m not sure how much good that does. I don’t want to try to rotate it because being a spring pin I’m afraid it will damage the hole and I think it’s too hard to try to drill out. Any ideas besides burning it out? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05125.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 13, 2010, 08:54:27 pm
Mark I know Aerocroil is a good product but it looks like you are in a pinch here with that split pin. I never swore by a product before until I tried Liquid Wrench. I was changing a ball joint in the driveway for a guy and there was no way the nut was coming off without heat in my opinion. He comes out with this Liquid Wrench. I kind of laughed, put it on, waited a few seconds and gave it a try. Nut still frozen. He reads the instructions and says "you have to tap on the nut a couple of times to loosen it". ;D I chuckle, give the nut a couple of taps, put the wrench on and the darn nut spun without effort! I have had a bottle on my shelf ever since. So far only one broken bolt on my sandy and that was an exhaust spigot bolt I'll bet someone tightened the hell out of when they put the headers on. It broke way to easy.
If you try it, let it soak, some tapping helps with a small hammer. :) It stinks, it burns my skin and it melts rust. I have literally had fasteners go from frozen to spinning them off with my fingers. Don't forget to tap the case and even lightly on the pin with a small hammer. It really is the shock that helps this stuff work. I will have to give this Aerocroil a try sometime though if I get stuck. I'm sure it's everything Steve says it is. Good luck!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 13, 2010, 10:23:25 pm
Believe me, i'm all for whatever solution works to remove that pin, never will hurt to use another solution other than AeroKroil ! We all have our own experience of what products works for us !
That steel pin has alot of surface area to form rust and oxidation on the wall of the hole in the aluminum to make removal stubborn !
I agree with Wayne, tapping is good, just as long as one does not drive/imbed the pin further in the hole.
I'm wondering if using a propane torch head with MAP gas to get the case as hot as possible could work along with screwing in an EZE-OUT to the i.d. of the pin, to have something to pull on the pin in an attempt to remove it. In addition to the EZE-OUT, would be if you get that area of the case hot and use some dry ice to cool/contract the EZE-OUT inside the pin and try pulling it out. Put some dry ice in a nylon sock and wrap around the EZE-OUT to cool it off to contract the pin............ ?
I am thinking out loud...... Using a EZE-OUT will spread the split pin, but only against the aluminium. The aluminium keeps the shaft from turning when the pin is in place. Other than that, the aluminum serves no purpose, so if there is a little distortion to the aluminum to remove the pin that is no big deal, as the only purpose for the aluminum is to hold the pin/shaft unit from turning. The pin is not pressed into the aluminum, it is pressed into the steel shaft These split pins are usually a brittle spring steel, i have had to break them out from time to time, but not where the pin protudes from steel though to aluminum. The worst that could happen is wallowing out the hole in the aluminum and having to put in a steel insert to size the hole back to the o.d. of the pin.
The other option i can think of is to gently use a Vise-Grip to the point of not crushing the pin, then use dry ice to chill the vise grip and the pin and then try turning the pin to aid in eventually pulling the pin out.
The more i think about it, the less i like my EZE-OUT idea. The pin will just spread and the EZE-OUT will not get enough 'bite' to hold the pin to attempt turning the pin.
This is one where it is better to take all the time necesary to take the appropriate measure in removing the pin to avoid a complicated or costly repair. In the mean time, keept using penetrant, heat and gentle tapping.
This is probably a situation where you'll want to wait to hear what other ideas/experience other members have to share.
Just my 2 cents worth............
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 14, 2010, 02:29:57 am
Mark, tough one. I agree with Steve, MAP gas is the stuff that gets the job done. Don't heat up the cases too much as they will distort, but heat up the steel shaft and hopefully the cotter pin will let go using Steves vice grip idea. I've not heard of the stuff Wayne has used but sure sounds the ticket. Sounds like it is a product with a very altered pH value. Sorry I can't offer a better solution but certainly let us know how it works As for your broken stud, Ive never heard of the process but sure sounds like it works a treat. I think what you've done is wise as you will never replace those cases and a breakage will only make you me and the rest of us cry :'( KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 14, 2010, 09:12:23 am
Can you use EDM to remove the pin ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 14, 2010, 10:38:59 am
OK, I think I have a plan. I was talking to one of the guys in the shop about welding a rod onto the end of the pin and doing the slide hammer thing again. I would use a thin piece of sheet metal with a hole in it to protect the aluminum. Then he suggested trying a dent puller. He's got one I can borrow. The trick will be to get the threaded tip to bite into the pin. If I keep soaking it (I'll even try the Liquid Wrench) and use heat on the case it just might work. If not I'll try the welding thing and if that doesn't do it I have it burned (EDM) out. That will definately work. I feel better just having a plan. Thanks for all the input. Sometimes it just helps to kick it around a bit. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: myhondas on December 14, 2010, 11:50:22 pm
Mark, Rather than going through the process of welding the rod to the split pin....get a tap and thread the entire length of the split pin. screw in a harden bolt and then use your slide hammer to gently pull out the pin, using the liquid wrench or PB blaster and heat along with the hammer will surely do the trick. IMHO
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2010, 09:18:26 am
That is exactly what I'm going to try first. The pins are pretty hard though so the trick will be to tap the pin without breaking off the tap. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 15, 2010, 07:43:55 pm
Just an idea, as long as that split pin is, probably not necesary to tap full depth threads, could use a smaller diameter tap, the threads would not be full depth, but the chances of twisting off the tap would be less and as long as the i.d.of the pin is, if you screw in a hardened screw full length there should be enough thread surface area to allow the pin/screw to be pulled out.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 16, 2010, 07:59:27 pm
Sometimes the dog bites you and sometimes you bite the dog. Tonight I bit the dog. I got the spring pin out using a dent puller! First I drilled out the center of the pin with a drill about .010” bigger than the standard tap drill for a #10-24NC thread. It only went down about a ¼” before the bit got dull. Then I carefully ran a #10-24NC tap in as far as I dared. I got maybe 2-3 full threads. If you haven’t hand tapped before, I don’t recommend it. I’ve been soaking it (even tried some Liquid Wrench) and I put some heat to it and used a piece of bar stock to rap it on each side with a hammer a couple of times. Then I took the collet off the end of the puller and put a #10 screw through it and screwed it into the end of the pin. I also used a vice grip to squeeze the protruding part of the pin as tight as I could on the screw. Then I screwed the puller onto the collet and applied more heat – I’m throwing everything I have at it. I started with a couple of light taps and after a couple of hits I checked and it looked like it had moved a little so I kept at it. Once it started moving it came about ¼” at a time. Here it is just before it popped out. The actual pulling only took about a minute. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05222.JPG)
Here’s the pin hanging on to the end of the screw in the puller. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05223.JPG)
Here’s the tool… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05224.JPG)
…and the hole where the pin was! If I were to try it again I’m not sure I would try the tapping. I’d drill it out enough so I could force the screw into the pin and then clamp on it with the vice grip. With slot in the pin I think it would flex enough to clamp onto the screw and be less risky as far as breaking at tap. For what it’s worth. At least it’s out. Thanks for everyone’s input. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05225.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 16, 2010, 08:03:16 pm
Nice work Mark! Care to drop by and fix up a couple of my wee challenges for me? ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: myhondas on December 16, 2010, 09:58:55 pm
Whew......I was concerned about the tapping, but I thought that it would give you the best possibility of pulling it out. Thought about using a SS sheet metal screw, but figured that would be spreading the pin more than the machine screw would. Glad it's out and you're moving on to some more fun things. Did you get that liquid wrench? I've used it and PB Blaster and they both work great.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 16, 2010, 10:41:23 pm
I too was concerned about tapping a roll pin. Although they come in different grades they are usually pretty darn hard. I've watched Mark's work through a couple of threads now. He didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday so I figured he would fare OK! I've heard good things about PB Blaster as well. I think I'll get some of that as well as some Aerocroil to have around.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 17, 2010, 04:18:55 am
Good stuff Mark. And you've done a pictorial of the process which is worth a thousand words Yibbida Yibbida KP ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 17, 2010, 06:34:30 am
Whew......I was concerned about the tapping, but I thought that it would give you the best possibility of pulling it out. Thought about using a SS sheet metal screw, but figured that would be spreading the pin more than the machine screw would. Glad it's out and you're moving on to some more fun things. Did you get that liquid wrench? I've used it and PB Blaster and they both work great.
I did get the Liquid Wrench. Not sure that was the key, I had already been soaking it with the Aero Kroil too. The thing I liked about the Liquid Wrench is it didn't seem to evaporate as much, maybe sits there more and has more of a chance to soak in. Who knows. I still have some stuck stuff on the other side. Then I'll start cleaning up the cases including running a tap in every threaded hole and a drill in every oil passage. I'm thinking of soda blasting the cases, inside and out, to clean them up good. Any comments? For the final paint prep on the outside I'll probably do like I have in the past and blast the surface with a very fine grit sand and then paint right away. I have no sign of paint coming off on my last two projects.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 17, 2010, 10:03:22 am
Mark, I would get the cases hot tanked and Ultrasonically cleaned to avoid blasting with anything, at least on the inside.
Mark, I would get the cases hot tanked and Ultrasonically cleaned to avoid blasting with anything, at least on the inside.
Supposedly the soda (baking soda) does not alter the surface either and can be rinsed off with water and leaves no residue. I've seen a couple of threads about it on the SOHC4 site. It looks interesting. The ultrasonic cleaning looks interesting too and seems like it would be good for making sure the oil passages are good and clean.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 17, 2010, 02:26:44 pm
I've seen soda blasting videos, but have no first hand experience. Th good part is the soda media is water soluble.
E100's oil passage galleries being clear are a concern.
I don't know anything about ultrasonic cleaning.
Does u.s. clean the inside of long small galleries with angles as thoroughly as the outside surface ?
If u.s. DOES clean galleries, seems like u.s. is the way to go. No matter what, as dirty as E100 is, patency of the galleries will need to be tested before engine assembly begins.
Looking at the pics you've posted, appears 97's side stand has non-factory weld beads ?
Good to hear the penetrant made it the length of the pin.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 17, 2010, 03:13:56 pm
I figured just the mention of Soda Blasting would get things going. I have read a lot about it, know people who do it for a living but have no first hand experience because I have yet to use it. Here's what I do believe to be true:
If you ask 10 different people how to use it and how to neutralize it after you blast you will get 10 different answers.
There are products out there that "neutralize" the soda but does that mean it's gone? Those in the know use vinegar, soap and water. Then rinse, rinse, rinse. Water alone does not remove the soda from the material you blasted. The problem still lies in that any residual may not come out with the conventional methods we use to clean crankcases etc. ie: solvent based products. I think a look around would disclose that the guys putting together rare engines and doing restorations are sticking to the hot tank method combined with ultrasonic cleaning. Any good Automotive Machine Shop will offer the service and it's not expensive. I think I would go that route rather than blasting the insides with anything and see how it turns out. Just my 2 cents.
I do plan on cleaning my carb's with a small handheld unit though. If you don't neutralize it, the finish is preserved by the Soda for a longer period of time.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 17, 2010, 04:11:40 pm
I've recently had a tank, air-box and frame soda blasted and can sing it's praises. The frame had to have a little grit blasting in a few areas but came up a treat. There is no rough surface left as a result of grit blasting rather you end up with a dull finish and no sanding required to knock back the sharpness left from grit. I tried soda blasting as I was told it was the way to go for removing paint from the plastic parts. After talking with the guy who owned the business I tried those 3 items. The removal of paint from the air-box was amazing and left a finish that looked like dull paper. Very safe form of blasting from my experience and you clean up with water. The thing I was impressed with after the air-box was done was a fine crack was exposed which I wouldn't have otherwise have picked up
Cleaning of galleries is something any form of blasting won't do well. Vapor blasting does clean the larger galleries but nothing beats ultrasonic cleaning. Carb shops use the process as does the Health industry. There are any number of You-tube videos out there. The only problem is finding someone with a big enough tank. Pics to follow KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 17, 2010, 05:14:05 pm
Boy, we're really hijacking Mark's thread here. Maybe we need to start a Soda Blasting discussion. Like I said, ask 10 people you will get 10 answers. This page about wraps it up. I have seen hundred's and hundreds of cases where cars peeled because the stuff wasn't neutralized properly. There was one video floating around where the guy was peeling the paint from his restored Charger with a bondo applicator. :( Again, since I can't move individual posts let's start a new thread if there is to be further discussion on Soda Blasting or the link. Don't want to digress too much on Mark!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 17, 2010, 05:45:43 pm
No problem on the "hijack", I asked for comments, but yes, a soda blast thread would be great. Better yet include the U/S and other cleaning methods too.
For cleaning out the oil passages, besides using drill bits by hand in all the straight shots, I plan on squirting everything I can get at with degreaser and then take it down to the car wash. It's amazing where water shoots out when you put the high pressure nozzle in any of the holes.
Wayne, did you see Steve's comment about my side stand mount? Maybe you shouldn't be using my pics for your repair. I'm going to compare it to the one on 1553.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 17, 2010, 06:07:03 pm
Yes, I saw it Mark. Steve and I were swapping a bit of info so I could best figure out how to repair mine. Your's at least looks like it's located in the right spot. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 17, 2010, 07:19:48 pm
Steve, you are right. I looked at 1553 and it is way different. The first clue should have been that the paint looked different around the mount. Doh! It must have been repaired at some time. Wayne, it might be located in the right spot but not at the same angle as 1553. Crap! From the side the mount on 1553 looks like it is perpendicular to the frame. One of them is obviously located incorrectly. I don’t think I can get a good shot of 1553 until I get the exhaust off. But when I do I will try to take some pics. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05080.JPG)
Here’s another shot from the back side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05092.JPG)
And another angle. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05093.JPG)
I wasn’t planning on tearing 1553 down at this time but I might have to so I can bring both frames to a welder to make it right. Of course I want to confirm that 1553 is correct. In the meantime does anyone have any pics of this area that they could email?
Sorry Wayne. I had no idea that mine was out of place. Come to think of it, the bike did seem to be tilted too far but I knew the stand was loose because the fork on the side stand was bent open. Obviously don’t use my pics to help repair yours. I guess this is one advantage of this site and running a thread. I have many sets of eyes to help me catch these things. Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 17, 2010, 07:33:28 pm
Actually, Mark, Wayne mentioned the glob to me. I did notice the weld looked 'off,' but i will admit, i am not paying close attention to detail.............. my bad :(
Anyway, i do not have the engine in 2157, so need be, i can roll it out of it's hole and get some pics of the lug. Let me know, as you & Wayne are in the same boat. This breakage HAS to come from people sitting on the bike with sidestand down.
As Wayne and i were talking, i don't know what or any diffs there are between early, middle or late sandcast s.s.lugs. I do know "K0" gusseting is heavier and there are differences between early and late "K0" gussets as well as frame joints. I know there are differences between the gussets/joints on 232 and 4363. What i don't know is what diffs may exist on late sandcast and early "K0" or what diffs may exist beween early to middle to late sandcast.
It's difficult when one cannot have an early, middle and late production completely dis-assembled, side by side, in a large room. I guess that's where painstaking notes might help, but even then w/o having the different models side by side, would not know what diffs exist. Would be nice if you could dismantle you 1553 and compare to 97.
On soda blasting, is that a process that uses water? Or could i use the soda blast media in my cabinent blasting set up ? I would agree w/ Wayne, the guys who are restoring these rare expensive cars use the u.s. to clean things up.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 17, 2010, 08:31:35 pm
Anyone have CAD Inspection/Reverse Engineering software?? ;) That, the tool to go with it and we're off to the races! Seriously though, if anyone has a stripped frame that will help us out we should be able to get these tabs bang on given some key measurements. The guy who is welding for me says it's a piece of cake to fix but he needs to know where to put the tab.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 17, 2010, 09:34:38 pm
Steve, I believe the soda blasting is dry. I saw a homemade setup where someone put a slit near the end of a hose to insert an air nozzle and put the other end in a box of baking soda. That was pretty much it.
I was thinking I might use the cylinders off 1553, maybe other parts too so I might as well start tearing it down. No rush getting the frame painted on 97. If my welder had the two frames side by side I'm sure he could make them match. Seems like I've been tearing 97 apart for months (I guess I have) so it might be a while before I'm to that point. I need to sleep on it and then get organized before I start another tear down so I don't get everything all mixed up.
By the way, I'm very interested in the US cleaning for the cases. What kind of shop would have that?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 17, 2010, 09:47:32 pm
I'm GUESSING either performance, restoration, aviation, marine shops/services could advise on sourcing u.s. Maybe an internet search could yield results.
These guys http://highmountainclassics.com/ (http://highmountainclassics.com/) are North America's premier Bugatti restoration service, only 20 miles from where i live. I'm guessing they know something about u.s. I'm also guessing the Twin Cities has someone in the area who knows about u.s.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 17, 2010, 10:27:09 pm
I have 2 frames I can get at 969 and 1683. Just tell me what I have to do. KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 18, 2010, 09:20:31 am
I going to tear down 1553. After I do I'll post pics of the side stand mount to confirm that it looks correct. If so I'll bring both frames to my welder and have him repair 97. So nothing to do for now but KP and Steve, when I post my pics maybe you guys can give me an opinion about the correctness of 1553's mount.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 24, 2010, 10:57:43 am
I kind of got distracted with the side stand mount. That and Christmas coming up and I haven't had a lot of time to work but I have finally have all the parts on the cases off. Here they are. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05248.JPG)
My plan now is to degrease and clean them up as best I can. I found a place to do the hot tank thing but no luck finding someone that can to the ultrasonic but I'm still looking.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 25, 2010, 03:32:19 am
All coming together well Mark but yes, you need to take a break for Christmas. If you and Wayne need it I could knock up a template and send it over KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 27, 2010, 05:29:25 pm
Mark, Any chance of you posting a good quality, reasonably close up, picture of your cam carrier assemblies. I keep records of this stuff and will publish it all in coming months. Thanks KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 27, 2010, 10:08:27 pm
No problem, I'll get some this weekend. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 27, 2010, 10:10:08 pm
I had little time tonight and didn’t feeling like tearing down on the other sandcast or cleaning the cases so I decided to tackle something easy like removing the rotor from the crank. ::) I’ve been soaking it in Safest Rust Remover since last week. This is the stuff. It works great. Check it out: http://safestrustremover.com/ (http://safestrustremover.com/) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05257.JPG)
I only had a gallon so I put the crank, rotor side down, in a bucket, since last week. Crappy picture but you get the idea. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05261.JPG)
Remember that here’s what it looked like before. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04892.JPG)
So I had the torch ready but decided to put the wrench on the rotor bolt and give it a test twist. It came right off! :o Then I put my special rotor removal tool (20mm hex head bolt) into the rotor and it came right off!! :o :o Here’s what the rotor looks like after the soaking. It’s not perfectly clean but that was with no brushing, no agitation, no nothing. All I did was dry it off a little with a rag. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05256.JPG)
Some more good news, it’s the correct (for this VIN) 10mm bolt. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05258.JPG)
Here’s the 10mm hole. The later sandcasts have a 12mm bolt. Seems like that’s a pretty large increase. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05259.JPG)
So that went way too easy so I says to myself…(I won’t say it) why don’t I try to remove the spark advancer shaft. I’ve been soaking it for weeks now. I double nutted the threads and gave it try. No go. Out came the torch. I heated on it for about 5 minutes. She was smokin’. Gave it another try and it came out!! I’ve always had trouble with these probably because you’re trying to turn a 8mm thread with a 6mm shaft. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05260.JPG)
:) So it was a good night. Start to finish about ½ hour. Now I’m really scared. I’ve had kind of a good, bad, good, bad cycle. I can’t wait to see what happens next.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 27, 2010, 11:21:18 pm
Wow! That stuff is amazing! Not to be cruel but I'm glad it's you Mark. Being my first sandcast I don't think I could handle the additional stress of all that rust! I'm stressing over a broken fin and an exhaust flange bolt broken off even though I know they are easy fixes! You sure so seem to find an answer for each challenge that beast throws at you. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 27, 2010, 11:32:35 pm
Mark, Who told you about Safest Rust ? Did you get Safest Rust off the internet or a local supply store ? Just wondering if it's a product i could source locally without having to have it shipped in. Looks like GREAT STUFF !!!! I gotta have some !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 28, 2010, 06:59:19 am
I think I learned about the Safest Rust Remover from the SOHC4 forum quite a while ago. It is some good stuff. I don't know if it can be bought locally, I bought mine online and I'm going to buy some more soon.
Edit: I just checked online and I remember why I only bought 1 gallon, it's a little pricey at $25/gallon or 4 gallons for $84! But it works so I'm biting the bullet and getting 4 gallons.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 28, 2010, 09:05:51 am
Does the bottle say what is the active ingredient ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 28, 2010, 02:37:36 pm
I checked the bottle and there's no ingredients listed. ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on January 04, 2011, 08:12:06 pm
I found a place to do the hot tank thing but no luck finding someone that can to the ultrasonic but I'm still looking.
Mark I was talking with an old builder friend of mine. He advised us to be careful hot tanking aluminum. He said it can be done but the person doing the job must be well versed in cleaning aluminum. You can't use the same bath they use for cast iron pieces.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 04, 2011, 09:51:01 pm
Wayne, thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to ask them about doing aluminum. The place is a local, well known engine rebuilder that's been around for 50 years. I would assume they get into some aluminum block stuff but I will definately double check.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 04, 2011, 10:36:16 pm
I know you'll be very careful, Mark. My only advice would be whatever method you decide to use to clean the cases, would be the least disturbing to the integrity of the aluminum. The larger issue is making certain the oil galleries are clear. Seems like ultrasonic cleaning is the method of choice, assuming u.s. cleans inside as well as out. I've never used it, but i have always heard 2nd hand it's the best. Conrad's experience with u.s. looks and sounds great. I use plastic blast media because it has no abrasive left over debris and really does not disturb external surfaces. The bottom line is you want to use nothing that will alter the surface texture and, heavens forbid, harm or damage the cases. In that case, talking to people who have first hand experience with cleaning methods is necessary.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 1941wld on January 05, 2011, 02:28:23 pm
Mark, The safe rust remover is an excellent product. Donzie and I've have gone thru several gallons of concentrate. This product has a life, it does not last forever. it will stop working. Also be very carefull when it get old. It will harm steel items if they are not completely under the liquid. If an item is half in the liquid and half out there is a deteriorating reaction that takes place along this line as I have viewed while cleaning a gas tank.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 05, 2011, 08:15:03 pm
Again, thanks for the heads-up. It's nice to be able to learn without making mistakes. I just bought some fresh Safest Rust Remove so I'm not going to use the older stuff just to be safe. Also, as far as the hot tank and ultrasonic, I have checked with the engine builder and they do both cast iron and aluminum and they're aware that there are chemicals that are bad for either and assured me that there won't be any issues. Again, better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 09, 2011, 12:30:07 pm
I have my “spare” frame torn down and side by side with #97 frame. You can see that the side stand bracket is definitely in the wrong place. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05320.JPG)
So while I had both frames up on the bench I decided to compare them closely. Good thing I did. First thing I saw was there are some spacers missing on the bottom side of where the rear fender mounts. Here’s what it should look like. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05323.JPG)
Here’s what I have (don’t have) on #97. It looks like they used to be there. I don’t know why or how they would be removed but I pretty sure they should be there. Anyone think not? I can machine up some spacers and have them welded in. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05324.JPG)
Then I noticed the horn mount. This is what I think it should look like. The mount is basically perpendicular to the frame. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05330.JPG)
Here’s what’s on #97. It appears to be bent forward. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05331.JPG)
Here’s a shot from the bottom on the spare. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05334.JPG)
Here’s a shot from the bottom on #97. Here you can also see the gusset has been dinged on the right side, maybe from the same incident. Who knows? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05333.JPG)
I’m only assuming the horn mount on #97 is bent. One of them is probably wrong. I’d like to get some feed back to confirm this. Thanks, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 09, 2011, 12:53:36 pm
Any tips on getting the flat head screws out of the back side of the rotor? They appear to be peened to lock them in place. I think on my K0 I just drilled the heads off and replaced the screws. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05335.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 09, 2011, 01:53:03 pm
Another question. Is the hole that’s at an angle to the through hole in the rod journal supposed to go all the way into the through hole? If so, does anyone know what size hole? I used a drill bit by hand to clear out the through hole in the journal. After doing one this way I used an electric drill. They were caked up pretty hard. The same sized drill stops at about a ¼” into the angled hole. By the way, the journals aren’t as bad as they look. They’re discolored but there is no scoring or noticeable wear. When I run my finger across it I can’t feel anything. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05336.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on January 09, 2011, 02:40:51 pm
Yes, that angled hole should go all the way to the journal cross-hole, and then carry on to the next "main" journal - oil is fed directly to the main bearings, but relies on being able to feed through the angled crank drillings to get to the big end bearings. At least with these early cranks you can remove the blanking screw - some have flat bit heads, some hexagon key heads - whereas later cranks are blanked off by steel balls pressed / peened in place. Unfortuantely, can't remember the drill bit size I have used to clear them out. Start with a small one and go up in size slowly. It may be that if the drill you have tried first is too large, and at 1/4" it has reached the bottom of the threaded hole, the actual oil hole being of a smaller bore.
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 09, 2011, 05:27:16 pm
Once I cleaned the sludge out of the angled hole I see now that there is a set screw there with a hex socket. Obviously I am going to have to get them out to make sure there's no blockage in the oil paths. Oh boy. ::)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on January 09, 2011, 05:59:56 pm
Are you re-using that crank Mark It may just be the photo but it looks a bit too far gone, to me. I did see someone on Ebay in Australia selling undersize shells (0.25mm from memory) for the 750/CBX1000 and he claimed that the depth of hardening of the journals would allow the regrind. Cranks are so cheap in the US though, so probably a waste of time regrinding even if possible.
Cheers Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 10, 2011, 07:04:05 am
I am hoping to use the crank mainly because it has the correct 10mm rotor bolt hole. I'm guessing it would be hard to find a replacement. I know it looks rough but if I can get the set screws out I think it's salvageable. I've got it soaking in the rust remover right now. Like I said the journals don't have any galling just discoloration. I'll check them with a micrometer to make sure they're not worn undersize.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 10, 2011, 09:58:35 pm
I cleaned up the crank a bit more and tried removing the set screws. No luck yet but I don't want to strip out the socket. Maybe worse news though. After cleaning I can see the main journal next to the rotor is pitted. It's in the middle of the journal and not very deep but cause for concern. What are my options? 1. Replace it with a decent 12mm rotor bolt crank from a later unit (probably 1553). Will this reduce the value, how much?
2. Try to find another 10mm rotor bolt crank. Anyone have one?
3. Get this one repaired. I've heard of a process where they build it up and regrind. Anyone heard of it? And the undersize shells might be an option. .25mm is about .010" and I'd be surprised if the hardness didn't go deeper than that. But what does that do to the value?
4. Use it. If I do this are we talking it may go 10,000 miles instead of 100,000 miles or something worse? The reality is it's not likely that I would even put 1000 miles on it. And as far as the value goes, I'm not planning on selling it anytime soon but someday it willl be sold and I'd like it to be as desirable as possible.
Of course if I don't get the set screws out it's not going in no matter what. The cross holes in the rod journals were completely plugged (and it wasn't soft) so there's no reason to think the angle holes aren't plugged too. I could sure use some feedback on this one to help think it through.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 11, 2011, 12:51:53 am
First off, will ultrasonic clean the passage ways ? Seems to be to me the method of choice since it is "non-invasive" and "non-assaultive" to the crank. I'd suggest doing an internet search, look for a high end autmotive restoration business and ask them their experience. Your crankshaft is not the first shaft to be in this condition and not be saved. 20 miles from here we have a world prestigous Bugatti restoration service, if you know anything about classic Bugatti's they are some of the most valued and expensive antique cars in the world. I would suggest contacting these guys and if they cannot advise you, then ask them who can - http://highmountainclassics.com/ (http://highmountainclassics.com/) In order to clear those passage ways, it may take repeated treatments of whatever the best procedure is, which i believe could be ultrasonic, until told otherwise by an experienced expert. Honestly, i cannot imagine you will have any luck removing those plugs that were used by the factory to block drilling access in order to drill these passageways at the factory. Those plugs not only were Loctited in, but they have decades of rust to make them a permanent unmoveable part. You may want to contact Mark McGrew at M3 Racing for suggestions, i would say Mark is the best CB750 expert in the USA, if not the world - http://www.m3racing.com/ (http://www.m3racing.com/) You have to have these passageways clean before you can consider saving the crank journals. All my opinion.
The main and rod bearing inserts come in four (4) factory undersizes. The question is, can the journals be ground to "clean up" to a factory recommended undersize ? If so, no problem. Otherwise, you will have to consider finding replacement 10mm shaft or having 97's crank built up and then turned down to chosen undersize which is typical machine and engine rebuilding procedure. I have always heard from old and long time experienced engine builders isolated pitting of a journal does not matter as long as the crank can be turned to an undersize to fit the bearing shell. The pitted area acts as an oil pocket, provides additional cushion when filled with oil and does not affect serviceability of the journal or longevity of the engine. The crank is a 5 main bearing shaft, over-engineered to not fail, sothis pitting, especially on an end journal is not any appreciable concern.
Myself, i would not be concerned with what is done to repair the "10mm shaft" relative to value of the restoration. These repairs are all hidden and factory recommended, with exception to replacing the 10mm shaft with a 12mm bolt type shaft. The only concern i would have, would be the same as yours, it would be nice to save the 10mm shaft, because in the event the 10mm bolt was exposed, the correct 10mm bolt would be present. I'd suggest calling my engine builder, he is a REAL pro, he will know who can build the shaft up (if required) and he can turn the crank down. His name is Tom Wirth, his number is 608.493.4300, he is outside of Madison, Wisconsin. If you call Tom, tell him how you learned of his name. He is just finishing "buttoning up" my E2241 for 2157.
Just my 2 cents worth. ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on January 11, 2011, 02:58:48 am
I am not a Sandcast owner so no really qualified to speak here but I would just fit a a later crank. What does Vic World do? I can't imagine he has a stash of NOS early cranks or does he? DSS has a new crank at 450GBP but doubt it is a really early one and of course mega expensive.
The rods may be a different story though because I read somewhere that they were very closely matched so that there was minimal vibration (hence the coin on the seat not falling off demo)
How about this - its described as 1970 but I reckon the build date is Oct 1969. It is about 20 VINs from my K0 1010382 Oct 69 K0. As I say though I don't really know much about Sandcast cranks and I guess they must have had a smaller Ø rotor bolt. Mine did have small slotted head blanking screws though and not balls to seal the drill holes and the rods had the Japanese Hyroglyphics markings and were of the early profile around the big ends. Could you use some kind of insert to reduce the 12mm down to 10mm. Having said this Honda will have increased the bolt size for added reliability IMHO. Could you havea special rotor bolt made with 12mm thread which replicates the head of the 10mm one?
I wonder what Vic World does about some of the features, which were unique to the Sandcast, but were subject to safety related modifications such as:-
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on January 11, 2011, 07:18:30 am
Mark,
i purchsed recently from DSS some parts with little damages but NOS, and i've seen that they one crackstaft.
They had had great courtesy with me, sending also the pics before the purchasing.
Ask via email, surely they will anwer you with a fhoto and you will see if the crankshaft is really "early".
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 11, 2011, 09:22:38 am
I'm not suggesting save orignal shaft over a replacment, but if there is no choice or if one want to save the crank, then those were my thoughts. Myself, i'd check into saving the shaft while at the same time looking for a replacement as well as consider a 12mm, just to keep all my options open until the doors started closing on options. It is possible 97's crank may not be able to be saved, BUT it never hurts to find and learn as much information as one can, to affect a save. Obviously, a suitable replacement is the ideal solution. Even if a 12mm shaft was used, i don't feel it would really be any real issue at all. Mark, don't forget i have a good 12mm shaft i offered you a while back ! You can have it for the asking if that is the route you decide to take :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 11, 2011, 09:46:37 am
Thank all you guys for your great comments. I feel better than I did last night, somewhere in here there's a solution. I've heard of Mark McGrew and Tom Wirth and both aren't all that far from me (I'm in the Minneapolis area). There's another local motorcycle machine shop guy, Bill Bune, that has done some work for me and he's only 20 minutes away and he does crankshaft repair. I don't know why I didn't think of him last night. I think the first thing I'm going to do, intead of sitting here just scratching my head wondering what to do, is bring it to an expert (not that you guys aren't knowledgeable) so he can actually see it and give me a recommendation. Steve, you're right about the oil galleries. Unless they can be cleaned out it can't be used. The problem is if you can't get the set screws out how do you know they're clean? It's a long ways from the main journal to the rod journal and there's no way to inspect it. The ultrasonic might clean it out but the cross holes were plugged completely solid. When I ran the drill in the hole it was like drilling a piece of hardwood and came out in the form of a dry powder. Anyway, it's time for me to quit worrying about it until I get some questions answered. I'm going to talk to Bill first and then maybe call Mark or Tom too. Thanks again guys, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 11, 2011, 10:25:08 am
I got so involved with the crank that I forgot about my frame problems. I'm dropping the frames off this Friday to fix the side stand mount but just want to get an opinion about the posts on the bottom side of rear fender mount and the horn bracket. Any agreement that the 97 frame is wrong on these points? I could probably straighten the horn bracket after but this guy is kind of a welder/fabricator and I'd like to have him fix that too. And I'd like to machine up the spacers before hand. I feel like I'm being a pest but I'm really trying to do this right. Thanks, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 11, 2011, 10:33:49 am
Realilty can be a bitch, but then sensibility sets in. As you say Mark, "It's time for me to quit worrying about it until I get some questions answered. I'm going to talk to Bill first."
As far as checking patency of oil galleries, i would have to examine the shaft i have, then offer possible suggestions, ASSUMING the "concrete debris" in your galleries can be removed. I would think it's possible to check gallery patency from gallery opening to gallery opening using high pressure compressed air.......... after the cleaning procedure has been completed.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 11, 2011, 10:57:31 am
No one should ever feel they are a pest. This is how we all stay fresh and learn, by sharing.
It's hard to imagine the spacers would never have been on 97's frame and it APPEARS there is paint chipped from the spacers being removed........... ? The only caveat to "no spacers" would be 97 is the earliest frame we have seen and we know there are differences between vins, but it seems doubtful the spacers should not be present. These cases is where BB member "concensus opinion" is great.
232's horn mount was bent rearward from perpendicular, not sure why, as the horn was undamaged and intact.........
And, 232's steering damper gusseting was also bent, likely because 232 appeared to have taken a left hand hit to the steering head. It might be a good idea to check the vertical orientation of your steering neck while the frame is bare, setting up a long shaft through the neck to compare the vertical plane's perpendicular trueness to the frame's horizontal plane. 232's neck, looking from the rear, was off perpendicular by about 2-3 degrees and required straightening.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on January 11, 2011, 11:38:05 am
Mark Why not shoot APE a message and see whet they have to say on your crank? I'm sure they can grind it, spray weld and nitrate it and it will be as good as new. (maybe even better as they will balance it perfectly) They might be able to find the markings for the rod journal size as well which would alleviate the concern about matching rod weight to the repaired journal size. (vibration issue) Even if they can't it looks like it can be figured out without too much trouble.
If you would like some pics and measurements from my frame of the horn mount let me know. I'm hoping to get over today to pass the info you gave me on the side stand to my welder.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 11, 2011, 04:48:27 pm
Pest ??? You're no pest If it wasn't for your posts on VIN 97 we would be back in "boring boring" land, still be as ignorant about these variations as we were 6 months ago and not have had the involvement of the members both old and new. Keep it coming my friend ....................... I look forward to the new posts on a daily basis As for the rear frame fender mount and horn mount, I'd agree with Steve. Seems they are not standard in their current form so go with your gut instinct Yibbida yibbida ...... I'm outa here ............... ;D KP PS Did you check that downtube frame gusseting ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 11, 2011, 04:56:26 pm
OK. I really appreciate everyones excellent input.
PS Did you check that downtube frame gusseting ???
Not yet but I'm planning on machining those missing posts tomorrow night and will check it out and try to get some pics.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 13, 2011, 07:13:55 am
I now have one opinion on the crank for E100. This guy is pretty knowledgable about cb750's, he used to build and race them back in the 70's. He said run it. Most important he said was that the crank pins (rod journals) looked fine and that they are doing more work because of the alternating forces than the mains which are just rotating. Seems to make sense. He said he would just drill out the plugs and weld up the holes after cleaning them out. I decided to make another attempt at removing them first and get another opinion about the mains. I think I'll talk to Tom and Mark and maybe APE. If at all possible (and practical within reason) I'd like to save this crank. Just a comment about what Vic would do. And this is in no way a slam against him, he does some of the finest restoration around. I'm only guessing on the carb recall that ashimoto cited, but he probably doesn't try to restore that to original for a couple of reasons. The first being a safety and liability issure, and the second being a cost issue and lastly being able to find the original parts. Another example is I have talked to him about using Lotus Root exhausts on his early sandcasts and he doesn't because it pushes his selling price too high. They're expensive enough with the no number pipes. My point is, even though I'm trying to make 97 as accurate as possible, in the end I'm just like everyone else in that there is going to be compromises. But in the case of the crank, this is one feature I'd like to keep if I can. By the way I didn't get to the frame last night, it may have to wait until the weekend.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 13, 2011, 09:15:10 am
Bravo !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 13, 2011, 02:29:46 pm
By the way ash, and I hope this is obvious, my comments about Vic weren't a slam against you either. In fact it was an interesting point to ponder. And just because you're not a sandcast owner doesn't make you any less qualified to suggest ideas. I appreciate them all. Thanks, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 13, 2011, 03:25:27 pm
Vic's restorations are absolutely exquisite.
The pressure Vic operates under (which we do not have) in perfoming his restorations, Vic has a business to run and liability to consider.
DITTO MARK'S LAST POST.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on January 13, 2011, 03:32:09 pm
Hi Mark - of course I didn't think you were having a go at me. Hat's off to you guys, as it's really difficult getting my UK '69 K0 correct (ChrisR is not too far from me and has been a great help), so early Sandcast's must be an absolute nightmare to get correct (not to mention the expense!!) Even with the K0 though I think I am getting obsessive - trying to get the electrics correct. Presently I am replicating the K0 battery braided ground wire and making my own end terminals because I don't believe the complete cables Yamiya sell are correct.
Be interested to see how you tackle the alloy parts mark - your K0 restoration threads on the finish of your fork sliders on the SOHC4 site were really informative.
Re: Vic World - hats off to him too - making a living at restoration must be really difficult
Cheers! Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 13, 2011, 04:09:46 pm
Mark I own VIN969 and haven't started the rebuild of this yet but for the last 5 years I have been procuring as many NOS parts for this bike as I can. It will be almost a New bike once restored but I have retained as much of the original as I could. About six months back I bought a third sandcast which is a very low VIN. This bike is relatively unmolested and it is my intent to keep all the original parts with this bike(well as much as possible). If the side covers are cracked they will be repaired and reused, the instruments will be cleaned up and reused, master cylinder, switches, wiring etc etc will be cleaned up and reused. If my crank needs repair then so be it. I suppose what Im saying is I would rather have a repaired original part on a low number VIN bike I like the way you are approaching your restoration in that you are attempting to retain originality. If I was to buy a restored low VIN bike and I removed the alternator cover I would expect to see the correct bolt. Sure it may cost a bit more but if you were of a mind to sell the bike one day, you can put hand on heart and attest to what is original fittment both seen and unseen. I know some of us are becoming quiet anal (I put my hand up to this) about the smallest detail changes to the model run and others could reasonably ask does it really matter as the part will not be seen. It is a fair question but not one I would ask. From where I sit, and as expressed by others, keep the crank. ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 13, 2011, 04:15:49 pm
My oh my Ash, that harness has come up a treat.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 14, 2011, 03:39:46 pm
Some good news, bad news. Here’s the setup I used to tackle the oil plug screws in the crank; an impact driver, 1/2” to 3/8” adapter and a 3/8” drive 3mm hex bit. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05365.JPG)
Here’s what I’m trying to get out. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05363.JPG)
This is what it looks like when it’s out! (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05364.JPG)
Yes, that’s part of the good news. I actually got two of them out! (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05366.JPG)
And here’s why they have to come out. Not sure how well this shows but the hole is filled with black sludge. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05367.JPG)
The bad news is the sockets in the next two rounded out. So for the learn-by-my-mistakes department, I think the first two went too easy and I pushed too hard on the next two. I used a lot of heat on the first two and since they were probably Loctited in that probably made the difference. The other part of the good news at least I know what size and style they are for replacement and how deep the hole is for drilling or burning them out. At least I know I can get them out.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 14, 2011, 08:49:00 pm
BRAVO ! ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 16, 2011, 01:52:22 pm
I’m ready to drop the #97 frame off for the welder to repair my side stand mount, straighten the horn mount and steering damper gusset. I also machined the posts that are missing on the frame. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05391.JPG)
Once the frame is painted you won’t be able to tell they were ever gone. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05392.JPG)
While I’m at it I’m going to see if he can fix up the inside of the upper, front motor mounts on the other frame. It’s kind of hard to make it out in this picture but it’s pretty chewed up, probably from the lock washers. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05417.JPG)
Here’s what it should look like. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05416.JPG)
I’m thinking I’ll probably get both of them painted while I’m at it to stop any more rust.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 23, 2011, 06:35:46 pm
The frames are out for welding so I decided to work on getting all the black ready for paint. When I got to the oil tank I had another surprise. There’s a pretty good size hole rusted through. It wasn’t that big to start with. Just a soft spot and that’s how big it got with just my thumbnail. I haven’t decided if it’s repairable or not. I think I should try removing the internal rust to see how bad it is first. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05492.JPG)
Another option is to use the tank from 1553. I compared the two and there is quite a difference in the welds on the left side (in the picture). (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05486.JPG)
Here’s a close-up of 97. It actually looks like a repair to me. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05488.JPG)
See how smooth the seam is on 1553. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05487.JPG)
They both smooth on the other side. Here’s 97. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05489.JPG)
And 1553. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05490.JPG)
I looked for a date stamp and couldn’t fine one on either one. Is this the area it should be, on the backside of the rear upper mount? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05491.JPG)
So except for the crappy weld on the left side of 97 they appear to be identical. Does anyone think this is correct? Should I just use the tank from 1553 and take care of two issues?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 23, 2011, 07:52:40 pm
IF i recall correctly, the date stamp is in FRONT of the bracket on the top surface of the tank. IF i recall correctly.......
If it were me, i would use all the parts i can from 97, assuming they can be salvaged, repaired, reconditioned, etc, what have you. This way, when you are done, you KNOW all the parts which came with 97, remained with 97. You'll already be replacing enough parts on 97 that were damaged beyond repair or missing.
You can test the integrity of the oil tank by taking a 14mm combination wrench or a hard plastic head hammer and tapping tank surfaces to see if there are any more soft spots. If there are too many rotten areas, then you can decide to salvage tank, or not.
I ALWAYS try to use all the parts which came with the bike, unless they cannot be salvaged back to serviceable condition.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Looks to me the two halves of 97's tank are hand welded together and the two halves of 1553's tank are "stamp press welded" together.........??? I don't see the exact area where you suggest there is a weld repair.......? are you referring to the seam or another part of the tank ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on January 23, 2011, 09:22:10 pm
Mark My original tank from 576 has smooth edges as well. Ditto for the near perfect tank I purchased. I can't find date stamps on either. The tank I took off of 576 is a very solid tank. Someone just punched a hole and brazed in a temp sensor. It could easily be repaired by welding in a patch and smoothing it out. It's here if you want it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 23, 2011, 09:28:30 pm
Steve, The hand welding is on the left side (from the back) of 97 only. The right side of 97 and both sides of 1553 have smooth seams. I'll look again for the date stamp.
Wayne, Thanks for the offer. Depending on what I do I just might take you up on that.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 23, 2011, 09:31:29 pm
Is the factory original paint intact..........? Any visible sign the the oil tank ever been repainted or touched up.... ? Is the welded seam under the paint or is there burn marks on the original paint where the seam would be "on top" of the original paint...... ? Seems unusual there would be a weld repair after leaving the factory, unless the tank became defective, leaking oil after leaving the factory, requiring a weld repair........? I guess if there is NO trace of repainting and original APPEARING paint covers the weld, seems kind of difficult to defend the idea the weld is not original........ ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on January 24, 2011, 04:49:05 pm
Must confess, that weld at front edge does look rather non-factory to me, but would be interested in your observations. Oil tank date on that from #302 is on rear side of upper rear mounting tab. a picture is attached, hope you can make it out as I had real trouble getting a good image of it and had to play with the contrast, etc. "Date" is 4 - 15, ie, 15th April.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 24, 2011, 07:55:07 pm
Just to be clear, i agree weld seems atypical of a factory weld.
BUT, just to be as certain as possible, would want to ask all the qustions and make all the observations possible before deciding the tank should not be salvaged because the weld is not what we are used to seeing in terms of a factory weld.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 24, 2011, 09:32:54 pm
Chris, Thanks for the tip on the number location. I can make it out OK on your pic. I checked both tanks and no number is stamped on either. I even looked in other areas to be sure.
Steve, I tapped around on the tank and there is a couple of other spots that seem soft too, some just adjacent to the hole in the pic. Looking inside it is pretty badly rusted. When I picked the bike up the oil cap was missing. My biggest concern for future contamination is the breather area. Appears to be like a labyrinth maybe, from what I can tell from the diagrams. Maybe with plenty of rinsing it would come clean but like I said, it concerns me. I looked for signs of repainting and except for the paint kind of flaking right on the hand weld, I can't tell. I'll see if I can get a little better photo.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 24, 2011, 09:33:41 pm
I got the last two oil path plugs removed from the crank. I ran drill bits through all the holes and then cleaned them out good with pipe cleaners. I’m still planning on having it hot tanked and ultrasonically cleaned to make sure everything is as clean as it can be. As I was working on the holes I found one that doesn’t appear to go through. Am I just missing something or what does this hole do? The one that I’m talking about is the one on the right in the pic? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05494.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on January 25, 2011, 02:49:43 pm
That hole feeds oil to the starter gear, and only exits one side of the journal. The gear itself sits has a brass bush inside it and is essentially stationary once the engine is running with the crank spinning inside it, but with no reciprocating loading, so I guess it needs less oil than the mains and big ends.
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 25, 2011, 03:22:37 pm
Of course, that makes sense. But is this hole supposed to go through to the hole in the end of the crank? If so, mine's plugged. I'll try to get a look at it tonight.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Bickle on January 25, 2011, 05:02:47 pm
Be very careful....the hole that is to be there is very very small....smaller than my smallest number drill. Best to measure off another crank. A small guitar string barely fits through. Steve
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 26, 2011, 08:04:20 pm
Steve, You were right, it is a very small hole. I was able to get a #60 drill through. Now I'm satisfied that all oil passages are clear. I'm going to drop it off for ultrasonic cleaning tomorrow along with the cases and oil tank. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Bickle on January 27, 2011, 05:19:22 pm
Mark I also used a #60 drill. It is bigger than the original opening of another crank that I have. A #60 wont go through the other hole. I was not sure if I was going to leave it and try it or put some epoxy with the proper size guitar string in it to make it back to original size. Not too sure how critical it is. Just FYI.
Steve
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 29, 2011, 07:33:25 pm
My frames are back from the welder. He also straightened the gusset… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05519.JPG)
…and the horn bracket. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05520.JPG)
The rear fender mount turned out good too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05531.JPG)
But the big one was the side stand bracket. It looks very close to factory appearance now. But the important thing is it in the right place? I put my other motor in the frame and put on the #2 exhaust pipe to check it out. Bull’s-eye! :o It was about three hours of work that I could have been working on something else but it was worth it to know. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05521.JPG)
I don’t think it could be any closer. Many thanks to Steve and Wayne for helping me catch this before everything was put together. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05522.JPG)
Here’s another view. Now I can send it out for paint. ;D ;D ;D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05524.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on January 29, 2011, 07:52:24 pm
Nice Mark. I hope mine will hit that "bullseye". Pretty confident it will based on all the measurements you and the boys here gave me. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 30, 2011, 01:27:47 pm
Speaking of "8" bolts........ Are your 4 special shouldered 10mm bolts fixing rear sprocket to the carrier, "8" type ?
Steve, I've been meaning to answer your question for a while now. Yes, they are the "8" type. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05544.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 01, 2011, 07:48:57 pm
Cool ! Your carrier bolts are the 2nd set i've heard of being #8's. I was really surprised to find them on 232, when i took it apart. Considering all 232 has been through, it doesn't cease to amaze me. So many of the small parts were still present despite two engine changes after leaving the factory and some event that tweaked the steering neck. I the remains of the original engine came in boxes, as well as early carbs and the rear (round bead rim) wheel with those special "8" carrier bolts. I feel very fortunate. I am not aware of any vin higher than 232 that has these "8" head bolts. Am guessing 232 is nearing the last of the vins to have these bolts........
Would be neat if someday we could categorize the distinctions in vins by every 100 numbers through 1000 or perhaps 2000............
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 01, 2011, 08:24:26 pm
Speaking of "8" bolts........ Are your 4 special shouldered 10mm bolts fixing rear sprocket to the carrier, "8" type ?
Steve, I've been meaning to answer your question for a while now. Yes, they are the "8" type. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05544.JPG)
Where are we looking here?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 01, 2011, 10:11:45 pm
What is shown in this picture is the one of four "vanes" as seen on the inner aspect of the sprocket carrier which is positioned on the LH side of wheel. The "8" bolt goes inside the vane, through the carrier from the inside with the threaded end protruding through the carrier's outside and through one of the four bolt holes in the rear sprocket. The threaded end gets a 17mm nut, as do the other three threaded ends of the 4 bolts. Sorrrrry, i always tend to get too wordy......... :D
These carrier bolts with "8" are rare, as far as i know. I don't know of a vin >232 that has this "8" head on the sprocket carrier bolt.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 02, 2011, 09:32:46 am
Yea, what Steve said. ;) It would be fun to know it the recently sold #244 has them.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 04, 2011, 09:21:23 am
I got my cases, crank and oil tank back from the hot tank and ultrasonic cleaning. They didn’t come out as fresh looking as I hoped but they are definitely cleaner and all the holes look great and the inside of the tank looks good. I’m satisfied that all the oil galleries are clean. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05598.JPG)
You can see that the inside of the cases still has that brownish, stained look. But it’s nice to be able to handle them without having to wipe my hands off afterwards. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05594.JPG)
I do have another issue though. Upon closer inspection of the oil filter housing surface, there is some pitting at the bottom. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05595.JPG)
Here’s a closer shot. Hard to see it well. I’m obviously concerned about the o-ring sealing properly. My first thought was to apply a thin layer of JB Weld with a putty knife to fill in the pits and then flat file it to make sure it’s smooth. Anyone else have this issue? Any thoughts? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05596.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on February 04, 2011, 02:27:05 pm
I too would be concerned about possible oil leaks and so would use either an instant metal or other epoxy compound to smooth / fill the pits.
That "brownish stain" inside the cases is likely the remains of a factory "coating" which was applied inside the cases to seal the surface (#338 and #1106 have the same coating) - there were allegedly problems of porosity of the sand cast cases.
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on February 04, 2011, 06:41:53 pm
I too would be concerned about possible oil leaks and so would use either an instant metal or other epoxy compound to smooth / fill the pits.
That "brownish stain" inside the cases is likely the remains of a factory "coating" which was applied inside the cases to seal the surface (#338 and #1106 have the same coating) - there were allegedly problems of porosity of the sand cast cases.
Cheers - Chris R.
Another 10 points to Chris for that info. KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 04, 2011, 07:58:23 pm
What about filling it with weld then machining it off? Personally I'd have concerns about that but just checking.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 04, 2011, 09:18:48 pm
What about filling it with weld then machining it off? Personally I'd have concerns about that but just checking.
I was thinking the same thing Mark. I think a good welder could tig that up for you without generating too much heat and or problems. That would be problem solved forever.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: donzie on February 04, 2011, 09:48:12 pm
What about filling it with weld then machining it off? Personally I'd have concerns about that but just checking.
I was thinking the same thing Mark. I think a good welder could tig that up for you without generating too much heat and or problems. That would be problem solved forever.
I agree, i think that this is the resolutive way.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 05, 2011, 10:32:04 am
I don't think the welding is the problem. Getting it fixtured on a milling machine and getting it machined flat is more of a challenge. My company has a machine shop and the machinists here don't want to tackle it. I have quite a few resources I can check before I make a decision.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 05, 2011, 11:07:10 am
Mark, does your rear wheel hub have holes in it ? steve
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on February 05, 2011, 12:10:15 pm
I don't think the welding is the problem. Getting it fixtured on a milling machine and getting it machined flat is more of a challenge. My company has a machine shop and the machinists here don't want to tackle it. I have quite a few resources I can check before I make a decision.
Yes, after the welding fase is necessary a turner job (with a special tool - probably a stone with a central hole) to create again a perfect base for the bottom face of the oil filter cover.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on February 05, 2011, 05:54:19 pm
Hi Mark, I had some imperfections weld filled on my K0 top case where it mates with the barrels. The weld was simply dressed with a file back to a flat surface. Provided it is smooth and level the gasket will take up the rest.
The bottom (where the weld will be exposed once the filter is installed) can be dressed with a die grinder and lightly sand blasted to render it invisible....
Regards Steven.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 07, 2011, 08:57:45 am
Mark, does your rear wheel hub have holes in it ? steve
Yes, 2 holes.
Steve, any thoughts about repairing the oil filter housing mating surface? It looks like the consensus is about 50/50 to weld and machine or JB weld-type fix.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 07, 2011, 09:28:46 am
i know from experience JB weld does not work very well for patching holes in the junction area of exh.pipe to muffler. it tends to run as well as begin to bubble as if in blowing out, the JB weld patch with mesh was about 1/8" thick. Did this repair on all 4 HM100's on a K1 i had.
BUT, this area on the crankcase does not have any of the same pressures or temps. The only thing i could have concern about using JB weld is heat + time + oil affecting the JB weld, which is unlikely and can always be replaced.
I was impressed with the Alvin Products link Donzie sent. http://www.alvinproducts.com/ (http://www.alvinproducts.com/) The product is designed specifically for heat applications. If a non-ferrous repair is to be applied, i would use the best product i could find.
I am sure JB weld would be fine, but the Alvin product is designed for heat.
Not sure one needs to go to the trouble of welding/machining, considering what type of service condition the repair will be subjected to. The welding would be no problem. It's getting the case set up on the table of the mill to get the weld repair parallel to the table to mill off the weld that will be a major task.
I vote Alvin Products.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 07, 2011, 10:05:15 am
Thanks, Steve. I'm kind of leaning that way. While I’m thinking about how to fix the case, I’m getting everything black ready for the painter. I know it will be months before I’ll be ready to use it, especially on the frame, but I want to prevent any additional rust. While I’m at it I’m going to send both of my frames out.
I always remove any bushing or bearings before the paint. Here’s a pic of a tool I made that I use to remove the rear bushings of the swing arm/rear fork. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05601.JPG)
You can do the same thing with the right sized sockets and some threaded rod and some nuts but if you’ve got the resources to make one it works great. It also works as an installation tool. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05600.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 07, 2011, 08:38:30 pm
Checked out the Alvin Products link. Are you saying I should use the Lab-Metal or the High-Temp Lab-Metal. At 400 degrees I would think the regular Lab-Metal would be adequate.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 07, 2011, 09:13:34 pm
Going by Alvin website, i'd say the Lab-Metal should be good. I cannot imagine the crankcases ever getting much over 300'F on the hottest days. Cannot remember for sure, but seems JB weld upper temp applications was 250'. And, for sure, the exhaust system would be several hundred degrees under normal operating conditions. Seems Lab-Metal should work well for the type of repair you need to make.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on February 08, 2011, 04:30:49 am
You got your own machine shop and you're asking us lot :o. Anyway, seeing as I'm responding, may as well throw my 2 cents worth in. TIG weld; mill dress (first option) ..................... hand dress as a last option. Bog is bog (filler to you lot), and I don't do bog.
On a serious note, those are rare cases and they deserve to be treated to the best job possible. A good mill operator would get that face done, just time setting up the job is what you'll be paying for. A good fitter (not sure what you call the trade there) would hand face that to within a small tolerance. Sandcast cases TIG weld very very well as they are near as you can get to pure alloy. I've had several cases TIG welded with 100% success. The area you are working on should also see zero warpage. Using bog still requires that you hand finish the face in any case and at the end you have a job that may or may not last. That's my Bog for the day. KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 08, 2011, 09:25:36 am
I too would be concerned about possible oil leaks and so would use either an instant metal or other epoxy compound to smooth / fill the pits.
That "brownish stain" inside the cases is likely the remains of a factory "coating" which was applied inside the cases to seal the surface (#338 and #1106 have the same coating) - there were allegedly problems of porosity of the sand cast cases.
Cheers - Chris R.
Another 10 points to Chris for that info. KP
KP, so in this quote you weren't agreeing with Chris about using "bog"? You're right about the rarity so I'm being careful what I do here and just because I'm lucky enough to have access to a machine shop doesn't make me an expert at anything. You guys have been around the sandcasts a lot longer than me and that's why I value your (everyones) input. I just need to find the right machinist (is that the word you were looking for?) for the job if I decide to have it welded. Thanks again guys.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on February 08, 2011, 04:12:27 pm
KP, so in this quote you weren't agreeing with Chris about using "bog"? You're right about the rarity so I'm being careful what I do here and just because I'm lucky enough to have access to a machine shop doesn't make me an expert at anything. You guys have been around the sandcasts a lot longer than me and that's why I value your (everyones) input. I just need to find the right machinist (is that the word you were looking for?) for the job if I decide to have it welded. Thanks again guys.
Hmmmmm! I'm somewhat amazed that my post "Another 10 points to Chris for that info" has been interpreted as me agreeing to the use of bog. Maybe a re-read is in order. I was giving Chris the thumbs up for sharing that knowledge with us all. Fact is, I couldn't recall knowing about the info Chris shared with us so thought I'd post the compliment. All too often we suck the info up but forget to thank the source. Obviously you have interpreted my post differently. I hope others haven't. Trades vary from country to country and here we have fitters who are not always machinists (although many are). I spose what I was saying is; if a machinist couldn't get your job set up to give you the good result you're after, then you may want to find a fitter-welder who has a special talent in hand dressing these difficult jobs (as suggested by Steve V). If bog's your lot then don't let me deter you from that path. Mark, I've felt some animosity in your response and am a little surprised at that. I know I post in a light style and maybe tend to overwrite on occasion but, just because I don't brag and expose to the world my background and life story doesn't mean I've done nothing, know nothing, been nowhere. If my input is grating on you then just PM me and say it and I'll withdraw from further discussion KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 08, 2011, 05:17:11 pm
I probably should have started a separate thread for my case problem. But, first off, if you felt some animosity, I apologize. It wasn't meant to come across that way at all!! I'm just saying I know I have a lot to learn about sandcasts and restoration and value and welcome your opinions. If I didn't I wouldn't be asking for help. So no, you're not grating on me and please don't withdraw from further discussion. As far as Chris' post, in the first half he was suggesting the "instant metal" and then had the information about the coating. I see now that the info about the coating is what you were giving him 10 points for, not the advice on the instant metal.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 08, 2011, 05:31:08 pm
Shalom, peace and good will always and to all.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on February 09, 2011, 03:19:42 pm
I think one of the biggest problems, for me at least, when participating in forums is the written form of communication and the message conveyed. Writing is a 2 dimensional and very black and white medium. We write to convey a message which has meaning but little emotion, and those receiving that message interpret that meaning and generally never an issue arises. It often happens where we read a message or comment, and struggle to understand what it is the writer is saying. A good example is the good'ol workshop manual. Without those pictures we would be lost souls. Three dimensional communication adds that bit of extra ie: facial expression, body language and sound. If I told Mr Swan to shove his peace and good will he would probably be a little pissed (and I don't want that to happen) but if I said it in his workshop with a hint of sarcasm in my voice and a smile on my dial ......... all would be well. Mark, I'm good. Just one of those cases where a message sent has been misread and misinterpreted by me. If I had been in your workshop at the time I wrote my original post there would have been beers in hand, analysing the merits of weld vrs bog. Mr Swam would have been in church sharing peace and goodwill ;) KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 09, 2011, 03:48:34 pm
I agree. I guess sometimes those smileys help convey the right emotions. No worries. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on February 09, 2011, 04:18:45 pm
Sometimes I am sure we all "post in haste" such that intended meaning can be missed.
As to the "never use bog", in an ideal world I agree. I wish I could weld aluminuim, or knew someone I could trust 100%! Sadly after an experience where a set of sandcast barrels was rendered scrap by a botched weld job by a guy who came VERY HIGHLY recommended some years back (and retorted that "you can't win 'em all" afterwards, and still wanted paying!), I have some reservations about commiting irreplaceable parts to others for repair (and E100 is definately in the irreplaceable category!).
I guess we all have to assess the risk and cost, take advice, and go with whatever gives us peace of mind.
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 09, 2011, 07:32:52 pm
KP, when you visit my workshop, we'll share peas and good swill. ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 10, 2011, 01:41:51 pm
I'm getting close to making a decision on my oil filter housing problem. I started a separate thread to continue the discussion. Thanks, Mark http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=480.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=480.0)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 18, 2011, 02:35:28 pm
It’s been a busy week for me (too busy with everything but motorcycle stuff) so time for an update. I’ve decided I’m going to have the oil filter housing surface machined off until it just cleans up. One of the guys in the shop is going to help me tomorrow. We had to wait until the mill opened up. I’ll report back when it’s done.
In the meantime I’ve been spending a few minutes here and there on other stuff. I’ve been trying to get the flat head screws out that hold on the exhaust flanges. It’s taken many soak/heat cycles and an impact driver to get out seven of them. The last one finally stripped out the cross. So I drilled the head off and tried to work it out with a center punch on the outside edge of the screw. It moved out about 1 thread and then didn’t want to go anymore. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05724.JPG)
So, I’ve heard of this trick but never tried it, I decided to weld a nut on the end of the screw. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05725.JPG)
I waited until cooled from red to grey, and while it was still hot, grabbed it with a pair of pliers and it turned out so easy. Sweet! Sometimes I wonder why I don’t just do the last thing first. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05727.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 19, 2011, 11:22:35 am
I finally tackled the repair of the mating surface for the oil filter housing. I enlisted the help of one of the machinists in our shop. The best part about it is I know he’s good and I can “stay in control” rather than just sending it out somewhere. After much debate (mostly in my own head) I decided to machine the surface to just cleanup the pitting. That way I eliminate any concerns about what might happen with welding. I also figured that if it was welded it would be best to machine the whole surface anyway to make sure it’s flat so might as well skip the welding. I examined everything carefully first. The only issue I saw with this solution was that the locating tab on a finned housing might get a little too close to the case. Since this engine at worst will at least have a replica smooth housing it’s not a concern. I mention this as a heads-up in case someone else wants to try this at home. Here’s a shot of what I’m talking about. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05735.JPG)
Before starting I stuffed a chunk of a shop rag in the center hole and put a rubber stopper in the other hole to prevent metal shavings from getting into the oil holes. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05728.JPG)
Here’s a shot of it on the mill. The case is bolted to a piece of ground aluminum tooling plate which is held in a vice which is mounted to a sine plate. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05730.JPG)
Here’s another view. The mounting surface was indicated in to less than 0.001” (0.025mm). We took off about .005” (.125mm) at a time to sneak up on it. It took .030” (0.75mm) to get it although 0.025 might have been enough. There’s a couple of small pits near the edge of the surface only. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05731.JPG)
We also machined the same amount of the center post just to make sure that all the internal relationships between the filter and spring and seals, etc., remained the same. Start to finish was about 2 ½ hours. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05732.JPG)
Here’s the finished product. I put a housing on and snugged it up and turned it to make a mark from the o-ring. It’s hard to see but the o-ring contacts flat surface all around. It will not leak. Better yet, I scored on a smooth filter housing (99% sure it’s real, I’ll post some pics) and now I know I have a perfectly flat surface to mount it to. It’s good to have this task done. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05734.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 19, 2011, 12:31:54 pm
Here are some pics of the oil filter housing. I’ve never actually seen one in person but I’m pretty sure it’s the real deal. There are no reinforcing ribs on the inside and the surface definitely appears to have a cast finish. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05742.JPG)
The outside has imperfections but I don’t think it’s road blast because it’s uniform all around the outside. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05745.JPG)
The front face definitely has road blast but I think it should clean up. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05747.JPG)
Is this the real deal? If it is my list of needed correct parts is getting shorter. Am I correct that the smooth housings were polished like the engine covers and not painted? Any tips for restoring? Thanks for any input.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on February 19, 2011, 01:59:55 pm
Nice find, and sure sounds like its an original. Pictures follow of the bowl from #302, prior to re-finishing. It had remnants of clear coat, over a similar polished appearance to that of the other engine side covers.
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 19, 2011, 03:21:15 pm
I forgot to mention something I did this past week. I was looking at my crankshaft main and rod bearings and decided they have to be replaced. I don’t know why I was even considering reusing them. I looked on the crank in the usual place for markings and everywhere else for that matter. Nothing. Maybe it’s because of the age? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05654.JPG)
Couldn’t find any markings on the rods either, except for a “2” scribed on one of them. That, along with the journal on the rotor end of the crank (mentioned in earlier post) convinced me to send the crank out. I need one more opinion on that. I talked to APE and they’re going to check out the journal and repair if necessary. While they have it they will measure everything for me and install the rods. I mic’d the journals and my crank code should be JL-CBBBC PL-5555. The case was stamped AABAA so selecting bearings for the crank shouldn’t be a problem. I found it interesting that the main bearings should be green, yellow, yellow, yellow, green. Yellows, being the thinnest bearing, would indicate to me that there wasn’t excess wear on the journals. We’ll see how close I was when I get the crank back.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on February 19, 2011, 04:06:02 pm
That's an absolutely excellent outcome and I for one, am happy you went this way. That looks a great job Mark, well done. ;D KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 20, 2011, 10:34:42 am
Thanks, KP. And thanks to you and everyone else for the excellent input. I'm very pleased with the results. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on February 20, 2011, 12:13:58 pm
Mark, compliments.
Great work on the bottom case.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on February 20, 2011, 08:39:45 pm
Mark: Excellent results, nice head work on getting the case oil filter mating surface refinished, nice positive machine work. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 21, 2011, 04:32:23 pm
So Wayne was asking me about the front oil gallery plug on the upper case. I was thinking that the ultrasonic cleaning would make sure that it was clean behind there but…I kept thinking about it. So I had to get it out to find out. Saturday I squirted it a couple of times with Aero Kroil. Sunday I got out the torch and heated all around the plug for a couple minutes, put a fairly heavy, slotted screwdriver on it and it came right out. If that didn’t do it I was going try heating it again and go outside and grab an icicle to cool off the plug quick. No damage to the plug either. I tried to get a shot that would show the inside of the hole but no luck. I almost expected a bunch of gunk on the end of the plug but was it was clean. I doubt you’d find a case much dirtier than this one or one that should be stuck more than this one. I had to know if the plug would come out and I had to know if the ultrasonic cleaning worked. Now I know. Thanks, Wayne. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05736.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 21, 2011, 05:38:44 pm
Great stuff Mark! I'll be pulling mine for inspection and final cleaning for sure. I ordered a new plug as I want a nice new one in there after I repaint the cases etc.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 22, 2011, 05:43:35 pm
I’d posted this in a separate thread but I’m still trying to figure out what the holes do in this picture of the clutch area of the lower case from E100. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05653.JPG)
Here’s a shot from the bottom. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05652.JPG)
But the bigger question is, why doesn’t the vertical hole go all the way through on my later sandcast engine E5491 shown here? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC03144A.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 22, 2011, 06:40:50 pm
Mark Engine 748 has the same deal with the sealer shown in your 3rd pic.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 22, 2011, 10:08:31 pm
Mark Engine 748 has the same deal with the sealer shown in your 3rd pic.
It's harder to see but it's on the center pic too. But, is the hole drilled through or not on 748?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 23, 2011, 11:27:30 am
Mark The hole on 748 does not come right through. It is however drilled through the top wall and into the bottom wall of the cross bore.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 23, 2011, 12:49:34 pm
So do we have another distinction between early and later sandcasts? ??? Why does the hole in E100 go all the way through? ??? ??? And what are these holes for? ??? ??? ??? Anyone?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 24, 2011, 11:28:34 am
Steve, maybe this would be a good question for Bob Jameson. Is it possible that this was for a design feature that was eliminated or something planned for future models that was never used?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 25, 2011, 01:28:20 pm
So I had this crazy thought. When I was using the torch to help remove studs and screws from the cases, I noticed some kind of moisture forming in the area around the flame. Could this be water or something leeching out of the aluminum? I haven't had any paint stick problems with my diecast or sandcast that was painted but I've seen posts from guys who have used the same paint and did have problems. In both my other cases it was months before the assembly was completed and subject to heat and oil and gas so maybe that was part of the reason for my success. Maybe too because they hadn't sat outside for over 20 years. But what would you think about putting the cases in the oven at 250 degrees F. for a couple of hours to "dry" them out before painting? Actually I know my painter puts them under a heat lamp before painting but I'm sure they don't get that warm. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 25, 2011, 02:39:23 pm
Mark Right from the Dupli-Color-Specialist as I had some questions regarding whether or not it was necessary to completely strip my cases.
As long as the surface is free of flaking paint, oil and grease. From what it sounds, you have the surface well prepped. You might want to heat up the aluminum a little prior to painting. You can do this with a heat lamp or even a halogen light.
In the past, I have heated engine cases up for various reasons. Installing bearings comes to mind. I drop the case in the oven at 300 deg or so for a while, put the bearing in the freezer and it will drop right in.
I plan on doing a little baking of my cases in the wife's oven prior to paint. I have used a lot of cleaners and solvents. I would rather eat them than have them bubble out of my freshly painted mill! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 25, 2011, 08:27:03 pm
Mark, what was the temp of the cases ?
What type of a flame (gas) were you using ?
Not uncommon to see surface condensation form at room temperature, caused by the high temp of the flame rapidly heating the cool/cold cases. Higher relative humidity increases the incidence of this phenomenon; condensation cannnot evaporate as quickly when there's higher relative humidty.
Condensation forms when two mediums have temp differences, typically when one medium is dense (metal) and the other medium is much less dense, (oxygen/propane or O2/acetylene.
Same reaction as fog formation, i.e., warm air meets cold earth or a cold engine condensing water as a by-product of combustion.
There is no water inside the metal.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 25, 2011, 09:06:17 pm
It was a propane torch. Makes sense. Any thoughts on my other question?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 25, 2011, 09:32:57 pm
I painted E2241 cases on a hot summer day, let the cases sit in the sun for a couple hours. Oven will work, i have not tried oven for painting, prob.only need to heat at around 150' - 200' for an hour or so.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on February 26, 2011, 12:48:10 pm
My painter says:
the best thing is to paint in a dry day.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 26, 2011, 05:35:04 pm
I pulled out the covers today to work on. I’d like to get them done before I need them. I hate this part. I guess hate is a little strong. Yea, I hate this part. Anyway, I came up with another challenge. And more questions. I didn’t see this until I started sanding on the rotor cover, but I have a small crack on the cover. You can see there are quite a few good dings in it too but I’m hoping they will sand out. But there’s a pretty good dent and that’s where the crack is. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05784.JPG)
Here’s a better view of the crack. It’s visible on the inside too. It doesn’t appear to have been leaking but it seems like I should do something about it. So here’s the questions. Would repairing it using JB Weld or welding it on the inside be sufficient? Is it possible to fill the dent with weld or will there be a problem with the color of the aluminum matching? Should I sand enough to remove all the blemishes or if a little is left is that OK. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05783.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 26, 2011, 06:15:43 pm
Poor old #97 lived a full life......... She was ridden hard and put away wet, literally. Hmm, the challenges of working with old used parts. Judging by the looks of that alt.cover, there are marks in it no amount of polishing will eliminate........ ?? But the cover will look ALOT better after you are finished with it than it does now. The good part about "it" is, when the restoration is complete, the small blemishes left in the cover will be overshadowed ("drowned out") by the magnificence of the completed machine. It's always hard, with our critical eye, when we focus on one part and know every last blemish of each and every part, these things always stand out and look worse than when the machine is assembled and these small things fade into the completed project. As Chris says, there's always some compromise involved with decisions we make. Myself, i would dress down as best possible the external crack, perhaps explore some aluminum filler to help hide the outer crack. The good part, the crack is on the under side. The inside, i would rough up with a Dremel, then JB Weld.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on February 26, 2011, 07:42:37 pm
I agree with Steve.
If you see a little ding with a magnifiyng lens, for sure, you will see a big hole.
The small external crack, for me, needs a welding job.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 26, 2011, 09:45:25 pm
Yes it's kind of sad she was so badly abused. :( I'm glad this wasn't my first project. I probably would have given up by now. But when she's up and running again, I promise, I'll treat her right. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on February 27, 2011, 02:53:03 pm
I had a cover just like yours - small ding which had cracked. The guy that welded that one did a real good job. He filled the ding from the outside, and ground out the crack and welded from the inside. I was then able to buff / polish the outside. When you get real close to it (as we do during restoration), you CAN see a "shadow" in the alloy which is the different composition weld filler material. When it is on the bike, it CANNOT be seen / noticed unless you are laying down next to the bike. Not perfect, but an acceptable compromise on that occasion.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 27, 2011, 03:48:18 pm
Thanks, Chris. I was hoping I would hear that. I thought these things only happened to me. ;) It makes me feel better to know I'm not the only one. I've got a non-sandcast cover that I was thinking of giving to my welder to play with. I agree it's a compromise but the color difference to me seems better than the dent.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 28, 2011, 12:05:05 pm
Anyone familiar with a product called AlumiWeld for repairing aluminum? Here's a link: http://www.alumiweld.com/index.html (http://www.alumiweld.com/index.html) I could try it on my "test" cover.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: donzie on February 28, 2011, 11:29:51 pm
Mark I have used this stuff several times on many repairs. Many names but all about the same stuff. It works & flows just as described but this is not welding it is more of a solder. Welding combines by melting the parent metal & the welding rod together this stuf just flows on top of the parent metal. If your base is super clean it should flow & fill any pits & can then be machined, sanded or filed
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 01, 2011, 09:44:07 am
Mark I have used this stuff several times on many repairs. Many names but all about the same stuff. It works & flows just as described but this is not welding it is more of a solder. Welding combines by melting the parent metal & the welding rod together this stuf just flows on top of the parent metal. If your base is super clean it should flow & fill any pits & can then be machined, sanded or filed
How is it for a color match?
I got a suggestion from the SOHC4 site to use material from an old cover to make a welding rod. That way the color will match. Sounds crazy but plausible. Anyone have experience with this?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 01, 2011, 03:45:33 pm
Mark I have used this stuff several times on many repairs. Many names but all about the same stuff. It works & flows just as described but this is not welding it is more of a solder. Welding combines by melting the parent metal & the welding rod together this stuf just flows on top of the parent metal. If your base is super clean it should flow & fill any pits & can then be machined, sanded or filed
How is it for a color match?
I got a suggestion from the SOHC4 site to use material from an old cover to make a welding rod. That way the color will match. Sounds crazy but plausible. Anyone have experience with this?
Whilst I've never seen it done would sound a plan if it worked. I'm not sure if cover materials changed as Honda moved into high production so this would be the only question. If you can get an early damaged cover (not a thin lip) would be worth a shot.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on March 01, 2011, 06:21:06 pm
Mark, I think that the point to weld is much little one and is in the inferior part of the cover. After the polishing and the paint job it will be impossible to see it. Certainly, if you search the point of the weld, sooner or later, you find it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 02, 2011, 11:14:31 am
Whilst I've never seen it done would sound a plan if it worked. I'm not sure if cover materials changed as Honda moved into high production so this would be the only question. If you can get an early damaged cover (not a thin lip) would be worth a shot.
Any one have an unrepairable sandcast cover to get rid of? It wouldn't have to be an alternator cover. I have a non-sandcast rear sprocket cover I can play with but I'm not sure of the age. Maybe the material is the same but I'd feel better having "old" material.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 09, 2011, 03:27:45 pm
I'm meeting my welder tonight. I remembered I have a scrap valve cover that came off my K0 (sorry, early diecast). It had a build date of 11/69 so the material is probably as close as I can find to the sandcast alternator cover. He's going to do some test welding to see if he can get a close color match. I'll post the results.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 10, 2011, 07:01:09 pm
I didn’t get much done last weekend; I picked up a basket case sandcast engine. Because of all the water in the crankcase of #97 the transmission and clutch are pretty rough so when I had a chance to grab a parts engine I figured I better take it. Following the rule of not leaving anything behind, I asked the seller if he had any other parts. He said he had a set of carbs. I asked him how much and he just threw it in with the engine. Which was good because the cases have some repairable issues but I figured with the carbs I’d come out OK. Here are a couple pics of the carbs. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05831.JPG)
Mark, i think that you can do a good job on those carbs. Long choke lever? Or short lever they have?
Short 8) How did I know that ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 11, 2011, 11:02:45 am
I was wondering if anyone would notice the 28's. ;)
The set is missing two floats and bowls but yes, still a nice score. So now I have a set for 97 & 1553. I've had a little bad luck on this project (not complaining) so it's nice to have a little good luck. It is the short lever, by the way. kp, how did you know that?? My carbs for 97 has the long lever and also has the horizontal vents. Is that how you tell?
The engine is 1490. It is missing the alternator cover (was hoping to get one of those) but it looks like everything else is there. Hard to tell when it’s all apart. There is a broken stud and some damage to the cylinder mating surface on the top case from “aggressive” disassembly. There is also a crack on the rear of the bottom case. The outside bearing on the final drive shaft was missing its balls so it looks like when the bearing went out the drive shaft pulled back and the final driven gear hit the case on the inside and cracked it on the outside. It’s been sitting for a while since that happened. The crack is in the middle of the flat surface on the rear of the case and my welder says no problem fixing it. It probably won’t even show after blasting and painting. Not sure what I’m going to do with the cases yet. I had a guy interested in them before I picked up the engine but he won’t get back to me now. I may end up using the transmission for E100. I’d like to try to use as many of the original parts as I can but most of it is still rusted together after much soaking and cursing. At least I have options.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 11, 2011, 04:33:32 pm
Mark, a PM coming. Well there were 3 ways to tell on this occasion #1. The vent tubes are 90 degree. The straight type are always the longer choke lever #2. At the edge of the picture which shows the choke lever, you can just make out the beginnings of the distortion which makes the flat section where the choke writing is. #3. (and this is the clincher) Given #1 & #2 above, I guessed ;) KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 11, 2011, 04:50:31 pm
Need a Long Choke Lever. Fairly easy to produce a long choke lever. Step 1. Take 2 choke levers and mark/scribe both at the midway point between the flat (where choke is written) and the 90 degree bend at the other end. Choke levers are common to a variety of Honda carbs. Step 2. Cut one lever at this point. Try and get a nice cut. Step 3. Take lever #2 and add the extra length from the scribed mark down the lever and make a new mark. Step 4. Cut the second lever at this point. You now have 2 sections of choke lever that will be TIG welded together to make a long choke lever. Step 5. Find a welder who has a TIG machine. Don't even try a MIG Step 6. After your welder has done a super job of welding then find a machinist to clean up the job Step 7. Zinc plate .................. and Uncle Bobby truly is your Uncle Bobby ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on March 11, 2011, 05:52:10 pm
KP,
sincerely, after 2 years of sandcast forum observation, i admit that i dont know exactly the differences from early to late carbs bodyes.
Yes i know the long or the short choke lever, the 28 top carb with 6 mm adjiuster screws, skinny cables, etc, but i remain with some doubts.
Because i read that you know well the carbs, is possible make a list of differences, to do a point firm about the carbs (from early to late model)?
Thanks
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 12, 2011, 02:08:24 am
For our good friend Riccardo, I will do this with pleasure. I will however, have to post in another area of the forum. KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on March 12, 2011, 10:23:37 am
Many thanks KP, dear friend.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 12, 2011, 02:46:37 pm
kp, Thanks for sharing your knowledge on these early carbs. I'll look forward to seeing your additional comments. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 13, 2011, 02:35:54 pm
I picked up the painting this past week. Everything looks pretty good but it seems glossier than I remember. The painter swears it’s the same as my other bikes so I guess I’m good with it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05871.JPG)
I guess my only complaint is the paint looks like it got a little heavy on the VIN. It’s really hard to get a good shot when the paint is so new and it’s more readable than it is in the pic. I’m not real pleased about it but I think I’ll let it go. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05872.JPG)
I didn’t do the top fork bridge yet because I think the paint is less glossy than the rest and didn’t want to do it in this batch. But I can’t remember if the lower part of the fork stem is glossy like the frame or more matte like the top fork bridge and my other bikes are in storage so I can’t look to compare. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 13, 2011, 03:33:04 pm
Mark I have a few lower trees and the K0 look to be a semi-gloss and the later are gloss. It's hard to tell if they were originally gloss and dulled down. I've gone with semi on mine but others may have a better idea I was told by Andy Morris some years ago to use a sharp scribe to cut into the VIN. I've never done it though. Anyone else got any ideas about this KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 13, 2011, 03:53:35 pm
KP, I assume you did semi on the top fork too? I saw a post by Andy about that somewhere and I do it before the painter gets it to make sure there's no rust that the blasting might not get out. It's really better than it looks in the pic and there really wasn't much else to complain about. I'm think I'm just being anal (again). Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 13, 2011, 03:59:39 pm
I had a minor setback with the oil tank but I got it taken care of. They’re a PITA to get painted.
I had cleaned it out and de-rusted it with the Safest Rust Remover before painting. It looked pretty good. I was tempted to put oil in it to coat the insides but I was afraid that if any leaked out when painting that it would be a problem and if any blasting media got in it would stick to the oil. I just use the standard plug for the drain hole and plug three of the other holes with rubber stoppers and tape to make sure they stay in place. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05887.JPG)
For the smaller breather tube I use a ¼” nylon screw (lower right, it was white before it got painted). (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05886.JPG)
For the main fill (this is a tough one to mask) I machined a press fit plastic plug and used a soft o-ring to seal it up. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05888.JPG)
Well, the problem was, when I got it back the inside had some rust in it again. It’s been about three weeks or so. I suppose going in and out of the cold caused some moisture to condense inside. Not real bad but I just couldn’t leave it in there. So I plugged it up again and filled it with the Safest Rust Remover and let it sit over night. I put it in a box so it would sit upright. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05889.JPG)
This morning I dumped it out and it looked real good. I flushed it out with tons of hot water and used compressed air and then a hair dryer to dry it out good. Then I poured ½ quart of oil in it and rolled it around so everything inside is now covered with oil. It was a lot of extra farting around. I’m gonna half to think this through better next time around.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 15, 2011, 09:45:42 am
Crankshaft update: I heard from APE last week. They recommended repairing the rotor end main journal and also one rod journal that was marginal. I decided to do what they recommended. That will take about 8 weeks but I will feel much better about using it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on March 15, 2011, 10:24:18 am
As do I. Glad you took that extra step Mark.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 15, 2011, 04:04:23 pm
KP, I assume you did semi on the top fork too? I saw a post by Andy about that somewhere and I do it before the painter gets it to make sure there's no rust that the blasting might not get out. It's really better than it looks in the pic and there really wasn't much else to complain about. I'm think I'm just being anal (again). Mark
Yes Mark, My top trees are painted in a semi gloss/satin. In regards your tank, I now neutralize the metal after I derust my tanks as the ph is altered after treatment and you get an acid ph. I use sodium bi carbonate (1 cup) to a tank of water to rinse out all the acid, rinse with vinegar (same strength) then a final rinse with a lye soap. Coat the tank with de moisturizing product. We have WD40, RP7 and CRC. There are probably other products available to you in the machining industry I've always had surface rust problems after cleaning tanks and the like. Since I follow this process which was given to me by my welder/fitter I've not had an issue. KP
It's a simple process
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 23, 2011, 06:22:33 pm
I’m still trying to figure out my options for repairing the alternator cover so I decided to take a look at the air box. The top half and middle were stuck together. I’ve been warned they were glued at the factory, but I felt that they should come apart to properly paint them and repair a crack at the carb rubber holes. I had tried soaking them in hot water a couple of times with no luck and I was afraid to use anything stronger. It was loose on one side so it seemed like it could come apart. I was successful using a razor knife (box cutter) without causing any additional damage. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05739.JPG)
Looking at the loose side, it appeared that it had only been stuck at the mating surfaces where the knife could be inserted (as seen in pic). So I slowly and gently and carefully inserted the tip of the knife and worked my way around. I didn’t do any slicing motion. Then I stuck my hand through the center piece and slowly and gently and carefully pushed on it. It took a few more pokes in a couple of areas and Bob’s your uncle. (I can’t believe I just said that. I learned it from someone here.) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05740.JPG)
I would like to maintain the parting lines and ejection pin marks to keep it identifiable as correct so sanding to remove the paint is not an option. The bottom half was warped (you might be able to see it in the close one below) and I found another in great shape so I’m going to use the warped one to experiment with soda blasting. I saw a post on the SOHC4 site where it was tried and it looks like it worked great. Supposedly it only removes the paint without harming the material. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05741.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on March 23, 2011, 07:34:57 pm
I wish mine was in that shape Mark! Soda Blasting will strip it fine. Make sure to wash it thoroughly with 50/50 vinegar and water once stripped and your paint should bond forever. Sure I can't have that center piece? ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 24, 2011, 04:28:59 am
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 31, 2011, 01:03:06 pm
I talked with APE today. Bad news. Their opinion now is that the crank isn’t worth repairing and they wouldn’t put their name on it. After further inspection they have told me that at least 5 of the journals are undersize. I’m not sure if that puts the clearance out of the 0.0008-0.0018” (0.020-0.046mm) standard clearance range or beyond the 0.0032” (0.080mm) maximum clearance. When I measured them I thought they were OK. But I never checked the calibration of the mic or maybe I got bad readings or who knows what. In any case, APE has a good reputation and a high standard and if they don’t feel they can bring it up to their standards then so be it. So I’m back to not knowing what to do. I’ve got a good sandcast crank with a 12mm rotor bolt but I’d really like to keep the 10mm rotor bolt. I obviously won't do anything until I get it back. I guess sometimes Bob's not your uncle. :(
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on March 31, 2011, 01:46:46 pm
Mark, that is bad news. Better that you had it checked though. If you really want to salvage that crank perhaps a company like Gleason can fix it up. I thought APE would have offered services like this.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on March 31, 2011, 10:01:43 pm
I remember when automotive crankshafts used to be "built up" (welded) then reground and re-trued. I don't know if this practice still exists or not.
This company is in Minneapolis, maybe they could offer repair, advice or referral - http://www.crankshaftsupply.com/crankhp.htm (http://www.crankshaftsupply.com/crankhp.htm)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 01, 2011, 09:48:20 am
I remember when automotive crankshafts used to be "built up" (welded) then reground and re-trued. I don't know if this practice still exists or not.
This company is in Minneapolis, maybe they could offer repair, advice or referral - http://www.crankshaftsupply.com/crankhp.htm (http://www.crankshaftsupply.com/crankhp.htm)
I found that company too doing an internet search yesterday. I haven't had a chance to call them yet but I wish I had known about them before, they're only a few miles from me. I haven't given up yet and will definately check them out.
Mark, that is bad news. Better that you had it checked though. If you really want to salvage that crank perhaps a company like Gleason can fix it up. I thought APE would have offered services like this.
Looks like these guys make the machines that grind the cranks. If the other lead doesn't work out I will call them too. They're only a couple of hours away.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 19, 2011, 05:21:32 pm
I got the crank back from APE last Friday and dropped it off today at Crankshaft Supply. It's too bad I wasted almost 8 weeks on it, but I should hear by tomorrow if they can (or will) do anything with it. There hasn't been much else going on with this. Too busy with work but I at least got 5383 and the early diecast out of storage. Working on getting them ready to ride. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on April 20, 2011, 06:45:20 am
Mark, I was so excited with the post I couldn't wait to hear what you'd done. :P Alas we are going to have to exist on bread and water for a little while longer ;) Hope they can fix that crank.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 25, 2011, 12:38:26 pm
I’ve finally got a solution for the crank. Out of the nine journals, four were fine, no pitting and in size. Three had some pitting in the center of the journal but were also in size. The repair guy said it would just be a pocket to hold extra oil and isn't an issue. The last two (one rod journal and one main) had the most severe pitting and varied more than .0002” (.005mm) across the width of the journal and smallest near the edges. Those two are getting repaired. Should be done next week and cost me about $350. More than I’d like to spend but I’ll feel good about running it. Once I get it back I’ll Plastigauge everything to make sure everything looks OK.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on April 25, 2011, 12:47:38 pm
That's what i've always heard, as long as the journal is within tolerance and cam lobe face not 'flattened', simple pitting retains oil and of no functional concern.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 21, 2011, 05:32:27 pm
Sorry for the lack of posts. I've been really busy and I finally got the crank back last week. It looks really good. Here's a before: (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05494.JPG)
And an after: (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC06494.JPG)
Now to plastigage the bearings. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on June 21, 2011, 09:07:29 pm
Bravo, Mark !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on June 22, 2011, 12:49:01 am
Great outcome Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on June 22, 2011, 11:13:14 am
Looks great Mark! Should be smooth sailing to get that crank fitted now....and with peace of mind. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ack3r on August 26, 2011, 04:53:22 pm
I picked up the painting this past week. Everything looks pretty good but it seems glossier than I remember. The painter swears it’s the same as my other bikes so I guess I’m good with it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05871.JPG)
I guess my only complaint is the paint looks like it got a little heavy on the VIN. It’s really hard to get a good shot when the paint is so new and it’s more readable than it is in the pic. I’m not real pleased about it but I think I’ll let it go. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05872.JPG)
I didn’t do the top fork bridge yet because I think the paint is less glossy than the rest and didn’t want to do it in this batch. But I can’t remember if the lower part of the fork stem is glossy like the frame or more matte like the top fork bridge and my other bikes are in storage so I can’t look to compare. Anyone know?
Hi, I like Your work.... I would to receive some information regard the paint of frame. I'd read In some web site, informations regard resistent paint for the frame. The possibility are two, polyurethane (bicomponent) or epoxy. For much of site web, the polyurethane paint has more resistant to gasoline and to abrasion/collision. Can You help me? I would to have more information regard to original honda paint. Is true that the master cylinder and other parts, must be painted with epoxy paint? I'd read that epoxy paint is strong with brake oil. Thanks for the patience
Maurizio
p.s. would be nice to have a section dedicated to painting
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on August 26, 2011, 05:10:26 pm
ps. would be nice to have a section dedicated to painting
Maurizio There is a section devoted to paint and badging ;) KP
Hi Kp, I've seen . Please can you show me, the better topic regard the paint of frame?
Bye
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 29, 2011, 03:38:49 pm
I have a painter that does the frames for me. They were painted with a single-stage black urethane paint. My painter reduces the gloss a bit to make it look more authentic.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ack3r on August 30, 2011, 03:32:53 pm
I have a painter that does the frames for me. They were painted with a single-stage black urethane paint. My painter reduces the gloss a bit to make it look more authentic.
MMhh, I don't know this paint.....Is better of Polyurethane? I know that polyurethane paint is very strong to gasoline, but I want to ask in my town regard your system.
p.s. Can You give me the brand and model ?
thanks
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 31, 2011, 01:11:41 pm
I checked with my painter and what he used was PPG Concept #9300 Polyurethane paint. Hope that helps. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ack3r on August 31, 2011, 01:44:22 pm
I checked with my painter and what he used was PPG Concept #9300 Polyurethane paint. Hope that helps. Mark
:P Now for me is ok. The poliurethane paint have better features. Many many thanks for the assistance. coming soon i insert the new pictures. Bye
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 24, 2011, 03:19:16 pm
OK, so after my summer hiatus, I’m officially back to it.
I’ve spent the last week or more getting things organized and trying to figure out what to do for the alternator cover. As earlier posts show, it has a crack and some gouges in it. One way or the other, it has to have some welding done to it. I decided to experiment with an old valve cover that came off an 11/69 build engine (probably about as close to being the same material as could be). I had a welder make some welding rods out of the cover and use it to patch a hole that he had drilled into the cover. It actually turned out pretty good as far as blending in but even with the small diameter rods (1/16” or 1.5 mm) I’m still concerned about getting weld into the lettered area on the cover plus I would have to do a test area on the alternator cover to be sure it would color match.
After a dozen or so phone calls and visiting several shops I came up with some other options. Two places suggested I just weld the whole lower half over and redo the lettering. After taking a picture and digitizing it, one guy would make an electrode with the lettering on it and EDM it and the other guy would engrave it. Both said it would be identical. OK, so in case I really botch it up I have a backup plan to fix it.
So I also found a guy that does micro welding and mold repair. For those not familiar with it, you actually look at the work through a microscope and a laser does the welding with a very small diameter wire. The welder didn’t think the color would match but he did a small test weld and I think it’s pretty close. I tried taking a pic that shows it but this crappy one is the best I could get. The left black circle shows a typical gouge and the right circle shows the area where there was a gouge a little smaller than the one that’s circled. If I hold it just right I can see it from about 6” (15 cm) away but on the bike from a foot (30 cm) away I don’t think you’re going to see it. You can kind of make it out. I go for the original brushed look instead of polished and I think that will make it harder to see too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07163.JPG)
I think this is the method I’m going to use. A real plus is there is virtually no heat. I touched it immediately after he was done welding and it was cold. I would have left it with him but I’ve got some screws that I want to remove first in case he has to do more repair. I don’t think I mentioned this in the spring but I had to drill screw heads off to remove the coil. I didn’t want to, but believe me, I tried everything. I tried tapping it and using a left-handed screw (better than an Ezy Out I thought, I don't like them) to get them out but they still wouldn't budge. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07179.JPG)
So I mounted the cover on a plate to make it easier to remove the screws. I’m dropping it off today. The guy is going to first trying putting a hex hole in the end of the screw with EDM and removing them with an allen wrench. If that doesn’t work he’ll EDM the screws out. I should get it back by the end of the week. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07177.JPG)
After that I’m going to clean it up and try to sand out some of the gouges that aren’t too deep and then drop it off for micro welding.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on October 24, 2011, 05:07:14 pm
Mark, is EDM expensive ? Could you give a general idea of cost ? Certainly seems the preferred method for removing stubborn twisted off screws.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 24, 2011, 05:16:49 pm
The guys that do it seem to all charge for the time rather than per hole. I've paid anywhere from $20-$50 a hole depending on how much trouble they have. The biggest problem is after they burn the screw out to the tap drill diameter, the screw threads are still in the hole. They have to be removed sometimes by picking them out with a small pick by hand. But sometimes EDM is the only option.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 28, 2011, 02:13:41 pm
I picked up the alternator cover, minus the screws. It wasn’t as bad as I thought. They ended up burning a hex hole in the end of the screw and turning them out with an allen wrench. They still had to use heat but much less invasive than burning the screw out. I guess I had the right idea with the LH screw but I had torqued it to the point where I though the screw was about to break. This was better.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 30, 2011, 05:08:54 pm
I should be working on my alternator cover but I decided to plastigage my mains instead. After remeasuring the crank journals I decided to go with yellow-green-yellow-green-yellow for the bearings. They ended up all being very close to same. As you can see in the pic, the one that appeared to have the largest clearance was somewhere between .0015 and .002”, maybe .0017 to .0018”. Since the standard clearance is supposed to be between .0008-.0018”, I’m on the high side but well within the factory maximum of .0032”. All the others were maybe .0001-.0002” less. I suppose I could go green-brown-green-brown-green and tighten them up a little but I think I’m OK with it. This engine probably won’t get more than a few hundred more miles on it so maybe looser is better. Although I thought I read somewhere that plastigaging indicates a bit tighter than it really is. I think I’m still OK with it unless someone has a strong opinion otherwise. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07240.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 15, 2011, 11:31:41 am
I see no comments about my bearing clearance so I guess that’s a good thing. :)
So I thought I’d made up my mind about doing the micro welding but in second guessing myself I decided to do a little more research. There are two choices for rods, 4043 and 5356. I had my welder use those materials on my test cover so I could compare. Here’s after welding. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07330.JPG)
Here’s after sanding and polishing. Not a great job but enough to see results. It took about 20 shots to get one that showed a difference and you still have to hold it just right to see it but there is a difference. The 4043 and 5356 look very similar in the picture but the 5356 is definitely shinier. Between those two the 4043 would be the best choice. That’s what the micro welder used to test on the alternator cover. But the area that was welded with rods made from the cover (somewhere in the circle) is barely detectable. I’m not even sure that I can see it with the naked eye. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07344A.JPG)
So I am going to have my welder do it with the similar material home-made rods. He said he would see how it goes and could do most of it but he may want to stay away from the lettering. I figure at most there are two spots in the narrow band just below the “MADE IN JAPAN” that I could finish with the micro welding where it won’t show. Here are the rods I made up. It was hard to make them much smaller than 1mm square because they are very brittle. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07403.JPG)
I realize I’ve been pretty anal about this cover. I’ve even been annoying myself but this smooth logo, thin-lipped cover was only used on the first 342 engines. So I want to get it as good as I can. The bad part is my welder just took on a big job and won’t be able to get to it for a couple of weeks. I’ll have to find something else to work on. Only about a million things to pick from.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 12, 2011, 01:52:59 pm
It’s been a while since I posted again but I having been working on it. I’m still waiting for my welder to do the alternator cover. In the meantime I have been busy trying to gather and sort all of my parts into their finish category: paint, zinc, chrome, anodize, etc., so I can send them out. Some of the smaller chrome parts I may try to buy if available because it’s cheaper than trying to rechrome them. What’s slowing things up is I’m trying to get everything together for #97 and well as most of the parts for #1553 plus a spare engine so basically parts for 2 ½ bikes. That and I want to drop off the head for some valve guide work and cylinders for honing. So that brings me up to my current problem. The cylinder separated cleanly from the case, In other words virtually no gasket stuck to the case, but the gasket on the bottom of the cylinders is kicking my a$$. It is hard as rock and stuck to the cylinder like it was super glued. This picture shows my progress after three hours of work, maybe 10% removed. I’ve tried various solvents, Permatex gasket remover, razor blades and gasket scrapers. Nothing seems to soften it or get it loose. I talked to the guy whose going to hone the cylinders and he said he would just sandblast it off. I’m concerned that may damage the surface. This is the worst I have ever seen. Any suggestions? At the rate I am going it will only be another 27 hours. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07577.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: jkp2240 on December 12, 2011, 06:48:57 pm
Try heat gun or propane torch, not too much heat?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on December 12, 2011, 07:14:06 pm
I would strongly advise against sand blasting it. This can be one of the toughest jobs I run into as well. Never found a good solvent that will soften these gaskets. Take your time. Try not to score the aluminum surface.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 12, 2011, 08:09:08 pm
Mark When I was on the bench this was my weapon of choice for tough gasket cleaning, even on aluminum heads and intakes. I would just go carefully until almost through and then use gasket remover and a scraper to do the remainder. I just checked my cylinders. Looks like I'm in for a bit of what you are up against!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 13, 2011, 03:47:08 pm
I'm definately not going to sand blast it. And Wayne, that looks a little scary to me too. I think I'll try some heat. How about hot tank or ultrasonic? Or even just burn it off with the propane torch?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 13, 2011, 04:54:23 pm
It's not as bad as it looks Mark. The scotch pads and the variable speed angle grinder actually do a nice job. I'll give mine a shot here an a while when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 14, 2011, 03:38:39 am
I'm not expert in this area but a gas torch would be worth a shot as you've suggested. Should soften up the bond I would think. I have an ultrasonic and if I remember it don't remove gasket so well KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2011, 02:53:43 pm
I dropped the cylinders off at a local engine rebuilder to soak in their hot tank for a while. Hopefully that will soften it up. If not I think I'll try paint remover or the torch.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 17, 2011, 06:33:33 pm
I got the gasket off. What a PITA. >:( (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07661.JPG)
I had dropped it off on Thursday but they didn’t get it into the tank until yesterday morning. They soaked it all day then scraped on it then soaked it all night and scraped on it again this morning. Then they put it back in back in for the morning and scraped it one more time before I picked it up at noon. They got maybe 50% off but there were a couple of scratches bigger than I liked so I decided to tackle the rest myself. For $35 I was hoping they would be able to get more off than that. I used some Permatex Gasket Remover and that seemed to help some. I put it on and would let it soak for 15 minutes on one half while I worked on the other half and back and forth until I got it off. It was a matter of shaving it off little by little rather than scraping.
I had to grind down one of my scrapers so it would fit between the number 1 and 2 and between the number 3 and 4 sleeves. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07662.JPG)
I was tempted to try paint remover but I was at least making slow progress so I stuck with it. I guess the only liquid that really worked was elbow grease. It actually looks pretty good. I don’t think they scratched it that bad. It was still about six hours of labor total. I’m glad that project is done.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 28, 2011, 07:43:09 pm
I haven’t posted lately but I have been busy with the holidays. Even then I’ve managed to get a few things done. Besides sorting through my parts for plating I got the cases, cylinders and head ready for painting. Everything checked out OK on the head and the valves are lapped. The cylinder is honed and ready to go. Everything has been blasted, cleaned and masked. I dropped them off at my painter’s last night and I should be able to pick them up tomorrow. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07677.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 08, 2012, 12:43:35 pm
Here are the finished products ready to assemble. The cylinders: (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07778.JPG)
I did put the head together before painting so I didn’t have to worry about dinging it up with the valve spring compressor. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07779.JPG)
Gotta love that number (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07804.JPG)
Normally I’d be tempted to start putting things back together but I’m going to work on getting all the parts ready first. I’ve got some smaller engine parts to paint too but at least I have the big stuff done.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 08, 2012, 01:49:34 pm
I decided to tackle the wheels next. I figured while I was at it I would do the plating for #97 and #1553 at the same time so I’ve got both sets of wheels to work on. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07769.JPG)
It only took about two hours. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07770.JPG)
One weird thing is a lot of the spokes were sticking out beyond the nipples on the 97’s rear wheel. The other three seemed normal. Now that I think about it maybe those spokes seemed a little tighter. I checked both wheels and they’re exactly the same size as near as I can tell.
The rear rims are definitely the rolled rim type...: (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07774.JPG)
… with the DID logo, the only marking on the rim. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07773.JPG)
I did notice one difference between the rims. The rim on the right is off #1553 and appears to have some kind of coating in the center of the rim and 97’s doesn’t. Any significance to that? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07775.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 08, 2012, 03:31:41 pm
Now for some interesting stuff. I compared the rubbers between 97 and 1553. The one on the left is off 97. If you look at the lower left part of the rubber there seems to be a slight difference. There is a slight curve on 97’s and more straight on 1553’s. But I thought that rubbers on VINs before 302 didn’t have holes so it looks like mine have probably been changed. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07808.JPG)
So this got me thinking about the rubbers on my K0. Instead of four wide and four narrow, they are the same size but symmetrical. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04956.JPG)
Checking in an early parts book shows that style. I also seem to remember something about a recall on these. Is it possible that the ones on my K0 would be correct originals?
So like I said, I thought this was interesting, but wait, there’s more! I’m sure some of you have heard about 2-hole hubs and the later 4-hole hubs. How about a no-hole hub?! I didn’t notice it until I took out the rubbers but 97’s hub does not have any holes. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07772.JPG)
Anyone seen this before? I’ve never heard of it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC07777.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 08, 2012, 04:16:58 pm
Mark, These discoveries are amazing KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on January 08, 2012, 04:38:22 pm
Mark: The early rear hubs came with out holes and had the larger rubber bushings. The second version had two holes along with the large rubber bushings. The last version had four holes with four thin rubber bushings and four thick rubber bushings. From what i understand the holes were added to relieve brake dust build up in the hub. I am also unsure as to the vin cut off on the different hubs. The parts books i have shows vin number CB750-1044649 as a change in the rubber bushings. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on January 09, 2012, 03:17:24 pm
No hole hubs are possibly the rarest of the rare early "features"! I have seen just one of these previously, and that was on a single digit bike. I think you will find that the cush rubbers have been changed - there was a recall at some time I believe which affected these. Picture attached of original cush rubbers from #302, which changed to the symetrical ones as per your K0 pictures. Then a later change again to the type in #97 / #1553
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 09, 2012, 06:23:36 pm
So the earliest version was a no-hole hub with no-hole cush rubbers. ::) Great. Now I have to try to find some no-hole cush rubbers. Seriously, I'll probably settle for trading the ones from the K0. One step closer to being correct I guess. Unless someone has a set they want to sell. ;) Chris and Marty, thanks for all the interesting feedback. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 28, 2012, 12:27:15 pm
I’ve got some progress to report although I had very little to do with it. I decided to send out my gauges. To me there are a couple of key things on a restoration and the gauges are one of them. And these were definitely beyond my abilities.
They were pretty bad to say the least. Here’s the speedo before… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC06750.JPG)
…and the tach before. Believe me, they were worse than the pictures look. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC06752.JPG)
Here’s the restored product. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08064.JPG)
It was important for me to save the original cast housings since they are different on later models. I had the NOS rubber cushions without ribs so that was really my only contribution. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08065.JPG)
Marcel den Butter (user name lecram on this site) in the Netherlands did the work. Here’s his webpage: http://www.cb750faces.com/webshop.php (http://www.cb750faces.com/webshop.php) I’m extremely pleased with the finished result and definitely recommend him. He’s easy to work with and kept me informed every step of the way. Thanks again Marcel.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: CB750faces.com (Lecram) on January 28, 2012, 03:10:50 pm
Many thanks for your nice words, Mark. It was a great pleasure to do this for you. Especially the speedo was in a very bad condition. I am happy that I was able to completely repair the speedo as well with original Sandcast parts.
The internal mechanism as it came out of the speedo: (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_VduPIsfbg/TyRVDqxgiiI/AAAAAAAAFOE/5_CTuGPbglg/s1000/IMG_0005_resize.JPG)
The internal mechanisme in parts. I kept the unique series 1 parts and added some series 2 sandcast parts which are the same as the first series: (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UkTQ2pznWFM/TyRVIG7REHI/AAAAAAAAFOM/aLw06g3-iJU/s1000/IMG_0031_resize.JPG)
All parts brought together: (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vpHCPT8HlN4/TyRVLnD6dJI/AAAAAAAAFOU/kzTtvH6K2Es/s1000/IMG_0104_resize.JPG)
Completed with the day trip counter (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hfE2Q_wIEv0/TyRVOtyHdiI/AAAAAAAAFOc/EXwbqAkgSXo/s1000/IMG_0112_resize.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 30, 2012, 09:40:56 am
Thanks Marcel for adding some additional history.
That's exactly why I delegated this task to the expert.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 31, 2012, 03:13:09 pm
I dropped off my parts for chrome plating today. I should have taken a before picture but I already had it boxed up. I threw in the fenders from my other sandcast too. There were a few bends and dings in them and I figured it would help them do the straightening if they could compare them. So it ended up being a pretty good size load. I probably should have tried them out with a couple of parts first to see how they do but they came highly recommended and I saw some of their stuff. Some of it was way too good for what I want but they seemed to know what I meant by dialing it back to a more authentic old Honda look. I just hope they know what they're doing. I don't know about you guys but these places scare me. They always look disorganized with boxes of parts all over. I don't know how they keep track of everything especially the little stuff. I'll probably be having nightmares about a couple of double cut front fenders disappearing. ::) Oh well, zinc next.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 02, 2012, 10:56:14 am
I know how you feel Mark. The place that did my zinc was busy and very industrial. When I went to pick the stuff up they only handed me the large parts! No bolts small parts etc. After about 1/2 of sweating they found the rest of my stuff. I won't be able to go through that again with the chrome! My heart can't take it!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: greenjeans on February 16, 2012, 05:55:43 pm
Mark, those gauges look great. Did you re-use/re-plate the backs or did you buy new backs ? Would you happen to know the part number for those ? The plates on the back of my gauges seem to look different (mainly the areas that are cut out where the cables for the tach & speedo attach.) than the ones that I am seeing on ebay or the parts fische I see at my Honda shop.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 16, 2012, 06:32:51 pm
I bought them from Marcel. The ones I have were pretty badly rusted although I still have them and I might try to have them replated. I believe the early part numbers are 37236-300-009 for the speedo and 37244-300-009 for the tach but I don't think you'll find NOS. Yamiya has them, both styles. Here's a link to the correct ones I think: http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_98&products_id=465 (http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_98&products_id=465) and the other version if you want to compare. http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_98&products_id=466 (http://www.yamiya750.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_98&products_id=466) A little spendy, almost $200 for both but if you can't find anything else...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 28, 2012, 10:29:03 am
I finally have my zinc ready to drop off. Part of the reason that it took me so long is I’m doing everything for 1553 too so I have just about everything for two complete bikes plus a few extras. I’ve got everything from three engines too although I don’t worry about replating most of the internal parts. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08263.JPG)
I probably have 25 hours just into this bin full of screws, nuts, washers, pins, etc. Besides wire brushing and cleaning, I ran a tap or die in or on every threaded part. Maybe a little anal but maybe one in ten had some corrosion or gunk on the threads. I’ve found that the more work I put into it the better they turn out. I’m not sure where I got it but I had it in my head that there was about 5 lbs. of fasteners on one bike. So I put this bin on the scale and it was 22 lbs. (10 kg. for you metric guys)! No wonder my fingers are raw! (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08264.JPG)
I’ve got all the carb screws and linkage and bowl clips too. While I was at it I even threw in some of my homemade tools. Which reminds me, I should throw in the Honda tools that need plating too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08265.JPG)
My chrome should be done soon.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 02, 2012, 10:50:48 am
Someone on the SOHC4 site commented about not knowing where all my zinc plated parts go when I get them back. I’ve got spreadsheets with size info to help me indentify the parts. A couple of guys have asked me for copies and I’ve been thinking that maybe they might be helpful for others and I’m more than happy to share them. I started a separate thread here: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=747.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=747.0)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 31, 2012, 03:44:35 pm
I’m way over due for some updates. Some of you may be wondering about my alternator cover welding repair. Shortly after I gave the stuff to the welder he had a death in the family and has been spending all his time settling the estate and getting a house ready to sell and hasn't been taking on any welding jobs. I talked to him last week and he promised he’d have it done by the end of April. I know, it’s been months, but I really don’t want to have anyone else do it and I don’t need it yet anyway.
Also I’ve been busy working on the reproduction mirror stems. I'll post an update on that soon.
I finally got the chrome plating back. It was quite a load since I had some stuff from 97 and 1553. Overall I’m quite pleased with it. I’ll never be totally happy because I’m too picky. If anything some of it is too good, in other words, better than original as far as the finish before plating. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen restored chrome look original and everyone seems to be OK with that. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08547.JPG)
I did duplicate parts like fenders so that they could compare fender them for straightening but I threw in some other duplicate parts too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08550.JPG)
The plater seemed to do the best on the bigger stuff like the wheels. Except for being over done they look great. They were in pretty rough shape. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08549.JPG)
My biggest complaint is the bolts for the brake disc. There’s no sharp edges left on the hexes so in my opinion they’re way overdone Supposedly they were too rusty and they had to polish them much to make them look OK. I’ve got some nice original ones that I might have to “borrow” from one of the other bikes so it’s all good. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08548.JPG)
Obviously I don’t need any of this yet so I just wrapped everything up real good and put it away for now. My zinc should be done soon.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 31, 2012, 04:18:54 pm
all looking good Mark. KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on April 01, 2012, 06:16:07 pm
GULP ! I hav'nt had a "whole sandcast" plated since around 2005. Seems like the cost for all the parts re-chromed was around $1500+ The high degree of work and expense we go to make these things dear. Yes, they like to get after those delicate little hexes with their big 5hp polishing lathes.
If parts are not rusted, corroded, etc; i'm wondering what the chome plate would look like if the steel was buffed and not polished.. Or, not even buffed but left "plain" after the chrome is removed. i've never asked "my" plater... i don't know what bare steel finish/surface looks like, after "my" plater removes the chrome using electrolysis. If or if not electrolysis to remove old chrome alters original surface of steel.
i wonder what plated parts Honda used a copper base, if any.. Or, if all the plated parts from Honda were only nickel and chrome with no copper base.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on April 01, 2012, 09:24:16 pm
Hi Mark, looking good. My parts for 5528 are in being rechromed as well.
Regarding Steve S' comment on copper base, I thing the main parts which were polished were coppered. I had my fenders (guards) panel beaten and where the file finishing was done, there was defn a copper base. Id say the same for the starter motor, clutch and points covers too. Id imagine anything which was 'show chrome' according to Honda would have been coppered.
I dont believe the Nuts n Bolts which have chrome finish to have been coppered. I know the chrome brake line bolts are unpolished, but have a nickel/chrome plate in lieu of the later zinc finish. Essentially just a brighter finish and harder surface, to the existing rough natural steel.
The rear axle and swingarm bolt are probably just flash chromed also, with a light polish to the show surfaces. No copper base. Brackets etc Id say the same.
Some of these parts you can still buy used in nice shape now, 40+ years on. If I come across them, Ill reuse them for the reason that I dont like overpolished bolts etc. Also I had wheel bolts/axles done on my K0 when I restored it, and if they use a copper base etc. they end up too thick for use.
The bare steel surface is a dull grey colour after electrolysis. The polished copper, prior to nickel, is also not as I expected - it is a burnished/rainbow effect copper layer, rather than a consistent shiny green colour.
It is impressive to watch the electrolysis take chrome off - literally a matter of minutes to do it. My plater told me its 30-40amps passing through the part to the solution, so I dont think it would take long to erode the part if not carefully watched ;)
It would be great to be able to polish/buff the small stuff ourselves to get the desired results, but most places would look at you like you had two heads for asking.... My plater scratches his head enough when you ask him to leave casting marks and polish lines through the parts, ruining his opinion of his job being well done.
Just out of curiousity Mark, how did your diecast parts go (i.e. Indicator Bases and Fuel Cap)? There is good information out there about rechroming diecast parts, and why they are hard to chrome in the first place (if they already have pits). Some places will use the same process used for non-metallic parts (i.e. using a conductive resin/paint coating) on die cast parts. just wondering if they did it with your parts?
Looks like the cost to rechrome is the same in the USA as it is here in Oz. The main cost is labour - especially if they are using copper base to fill pitting...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 02, 2012, 10:10:48 am
Just out of curiousity Mark, how did your diecast parts go (i.e. Indicator Bases and Fuel Cap)?
Actually, they turned out great. They didn't do anything special that I know of. I'd shoot some pics but I already have them safely packed away.
Steve and Steven, thanks for the interesting comments. I wish I had some parts that were good enough (no rust) to replate without the polishing. It's difficult to convey to these guys just what you're looking for. Even if the boss understands, he's not the one prepping for plating and the minimum wage employee isn't going to risk his job by under doing it. Per your advice I am going to have some fasteners done nickel/chrome. In particular I had 3 oil bolts done and I believe they are way too shiny. Of course it didn't help that they polished them after I told them not too. In retrospect I think I may have brought too big a batch and ended up with too many different instructions for different parts.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on April 03, 2012, 08:09:29 am
I've learnt that with the special stuff, I box the parts separately, and leave a list/photos of what needs to be polished, which cast areas remain etc. I have a pretty good work relationship with my plater though.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 29, 2012, 11:46:39 am
I guess this is a case of 1 step backwards and two steps forward. About a month ago I decided that the painting I had done last year was too shiny. I had my painter do some experimenting and after looking at some samples decided to have everything repainted. I tried taking some pics to compare old and new. It’s next to impossible to get a good shot of something black. But you can kind of tell in this pic, the new is on the left. In person I think it turned out fantastic and will look much more correct. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08709.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on April 29, 2012, 03:20:39 pm
Looks good, Mark. It appears that the paint layed down smoother too. Very little signs of orange peel. I can relate to you when you say that you needed to re-paint it with a little less gloss. Things like that bother me in my restorations also.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 20, 2012, 11:27:26 am
I finally have my zinc plating back, most of it anyway, after dropping it off in March. It‘s probably my fault for using this guy but I’ve had good results with him in the past and what I got looks good this time. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08829.JPG) I haven’t found anyone in my area that will do small batches of zinc for motorcycle parts. This guy, who does mostly chrome, does all the prep and has a buddy of his do the zinc at another shop. Turns out he had a stroke and couldn’t do it. I didn’t find this out until over a month after I dropped it off. So it took a while to get the parts back and to another source for plating. That explains why it took so long. Now as to why I don’t have it all. I had a small bag of parts to be yellow zinced. The bag was labeled and in a bigger box with big parts like rear sprockets, brake arms and stays, etc. Guess what happened? I have yellow sprockets, brake arms and stays, etc. ::) So they're going to redo it. I guess it’s really not a big deal because I don’t need the parts yet. But I have learned one thing, I’m going to quit telling people that there’s no rush on getting stuff done.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 23, 2012, 01:28:31 pm
Being busy with boating and fishing this summer and working on the mirror stems, I haven’t got much done, although the stems are for #97 so I guess that’s something. I did finally get my alternator cover back from my welder too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08866.JPG)
I have to admit this part is a little scary but I’m committed now. I figure it can’t look worse than it did with all the gouges. I’m not sure when I’ll get to it but my next step is to clean it up and then get all the covers “brushed” and coated.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on August 23, 2012, 04:43:12 pm
With a little patience, and a flat edge, those welds will clean up nicely :) My alternator cover had a pretty bad dent in the bottom chamfer - I didnt think it would come out looking nice. A little heat got it out. I think the scariest part is the discolouration after welding, but it is only on the surface.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 29, 2012, 08:12:07 am
Steven, for me it will take a lot of patience. ::) And I wish it would be fun. It's the kind of work I dislike the most. But it is next to impossible to find someone who will do it and have it turn out the way you want it.
I picked up the last of my zinc plating (the stuff that had been accidently yellow zinc. I’m getting closer to having all the parts ready to start reassembly. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08882.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 26, 2012, 10:01:11 am
Not much to show for progress lately but I have managed to get things organized. That took a while. I had parts scattered all over: basement, garage, shed, a small storage locker, my truck, and my shop at work. And a lot of it was in boxes so when I needed something it took me forever to find it. So I rented a larger storage locker and now everything is there (including the bikes which I had to get out of the garage for the winter anyway) except for what I’m working on at the shop. My wife is even pretty happy about it. Plus I have a lot of it sorted into bins and the rest is in labeled boxes so parts are easy to find. I found parts I didn’t even know I had. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09332.JPG)
I’m a little paranoid about making sure my monthly bill gets paid. I wouldn’t want to see my stuff end up on an episode of Storage Wars! (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09334.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: jkp2240 on November 26, 2012, 10:05:18 am
Looks like Vic world shop! ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 26, 2012, 03:28:00 pm
Hey Mark, When you finish #97, you can send her over here and I'll store it in my shed for free ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 26, 2012, 07:59:04 pm
Hey Mark, When you finish #97, you can send her over here and I'll store it in my shed for free ;D
You guys are too nice. :D :D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 26, 2012, 07:59:33 pm
WARNING: Anal alert.
I forgot to post another thing I did to get organized. I got all my zinc plating sorted out. It took me about 8 hours to go through it all. I found some nice compartment boxes for sorting out the smaller stuff. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09356.JPG)
I’ve got them labeled and sorted by size so hex heads are in one box, cap screws in one box and pins, nuts, washers, springs and other small bits are each in their own box. Then there is miscellaneous stuff too like o-rings, seals, turn signal levers, gas cap latches, you name it. Anything that will fit. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09357.JPG)
It’s amazing just how many different washers there are. There are approximately 50 different kinds for a total of 350 (don’t ask me how I know this) on one sandcast including some that aren’t listed in the parts book like inside the handlebar controls. Here’s just part of them. My point is that it’s so much easier to find parts when they’re organized. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09358.JPG)
Eventually I’ll pull parts out of “inventory” and put them into groups like the parts book when I get ready to do some sub assemblies.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on November 27, 2012, 03:34:01 am
WOW , Mark i would love to be as organised as you, Pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: jkp2240 on November 27, 2012, 12:55:29 pm
Mark Nice, I'll take one of those assortments! ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 28, 2012, 10:15:21 am
Ok now that I have things organized it’s time to get serious. The first major thing I’d like to do is get all the aluminum polishing done. Hard to believe I don’t have everything torn apart yet. First I tackled the rear drive flange. Notice the four peened areas spaced 90 degrees apart on the outside of the retainer. It doesn’t look like it’s ever been removed. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09200.JPG)
You all probably know this but life is easier if you drill them out first. I use the smallest drill that will remove the damaged threads and only drill as deep as I have to. I’ve reused the retainers before but since they’re still available I think I’ll replace it. Then when I screw in the new one I can re-peen at the same spots on the hub and it will almost look original. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09201.JPG)
I made a special tool for removing the retainer. A little heat on the outside of the flange and the retainer came out without a fight. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09202.JPG)
After the retainer is out the bearing presses out easily from the opposite side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09203.JPG)
I notice there are some deep gouges around the outside of the flange. I hope I can clean that up. I guess I’ve seen that before but I can’t quite picture what it would have been rubbing on. I’ll have to take a look at an assembled bike. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09204.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on November 28, 2012, 12:29:42 pm
I like the retainer removing tool, i made mine very similar, i drilled two holes in a bit of flat bar and hammered a masonary nail with point cut off into both holes, it works a treat
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on November 28, 2012, 03:06:36 pm
The gouges round the outside of the flange are most likely from the chain guard - they sit real close, and often seem to become mis-shapen, possibly from being removed and re-fitted "twisted". If you have the original chainguard, quite likely it will have corresponding wear marks.
Cheers - Chris
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 02, 2012, 03:37:42 pm
I checked and yes, the chain guard is what caused the wear on the drive flange. Hard to believe that plastic could cause that much damage.
On to the wheel hubs. The bearings in both had been replaced before and the retainers were chewed up pretty good so I just used the screwdriver and hammer method to remove the retainers and I’ll just replace them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09205.JPG)
It looks like the front hub had been polished at one time. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09210.JPG)
There was a pretty good burr around the spoke holes on the rear hub. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09208.JPG)
I carefully filed them with a fine file and now the hub should polish up nicely. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09209.JPG)
And the brake lining is a bit rusty. I’ll have to clean it up as best as I can. I don’t have any spare no-hole hubs lying around that I can use. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09206.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on December 03, 2012, 04:24:02 am
Mark , that has to be the rarest of rare a no hole hub, i suppose the indents where the spokes rubbed are to deep to totally remove but at least the new spokes will sit in the same place, my two hole hub has a big chunk missing from it and several large dings on it, i cleaned my one up in a blast cabinet to get the rust off the brake lining Pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on December 03, 2012, 05:01:09 am
Hi Mark, Another option is vapour blasting it inside n out. This cleans up the lining nicely too. Restores the inner area Between the spoke flanges to a nice factory finish too.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 03, 2012, 07:24:21 pm
In between other stuff I have spent some time on the alternator cover. All part of trying to get all of my aluminum polished. It’s very tedious work and not something I’m skilled at but I can’t find anyone who will do it for me. It takes a lot of patience and I work on it until I get impatient then stop and do something else before I mess it up. I think this is a repost but this is what it looked like after the welding. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08867.JPG)
I carefully filed it with a fine file. Unfortunately when I got it flat there were some pinholes from the welding. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09309.JPG)
So I brought it to another welder that does micro welding to try to fill them in. I was hoping to try to machine the recessed ring but from being dented it had too much variation in the height so I had to do it all by hand with special needle files. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09393.JPG)
Here is the before pic: (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC05784.JPG)
Here’s where I’m at now. I probably have close to 10 hours into it. I’d rub a little bit then look at it. Then rub a little more then look at. There are still plenty of imperfections that don’t show up well in the photo. I’ve ordered some special die polishing sticks to finish the recessed ring and the area between the N and the J. Besides the weld removal there are still plenty of scratches and dings all over this thing that I’m sanding out. I’m using 400 grit now and will eventually get up to 1200. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09413.JPG)
I think it will be presentable enough to use. At least it’s better than it was. I guess I can always replace with a better one later if I can find a thin-lipped one. ::) I’m not too optimistic because I’ve sure looked.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on December 04, 2012, 03:43:57 am
Thats amazing mark, i have tried my hand at aluminium repairs and know exactly how tedious it can be , the way to go with this sort of stuff is do a bit at a time, each time you come back to it you have a fresh look and enthusiasm, which soon goes ha ha Pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 04, 2012, 04:33:15 am
Great job Mark I'm impressed indeed :o KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 22, 2012, 04:48:43 pm
Thanks guys.
I know I’m jumping around a bit but towards my goal of getting all of my polished aluminum done I tackled the front forks so I could get the lowers off. They actually came apart easier than I expected and look pretty clean inside. The seals look really good so I think they must have just been replaced before it was parked. They will get replaced of course. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09317.JPG)
There was a sticker on one of the lowers. It’s a little hard to make it out but at the top it says Oklahoma and the bottom shows that it was last inspected (and presumably ridden) in 1979. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09321.JPG)
I took the tubes out of the lowers so I can clean everything inside easier. Notice the special screw and washer. It’s a good idea to replace the washer to prevent oil leaking out the bottom. Guess how I know that? They are not shown in the Honda parts manual but they are both available from Yamiya. The washer is part number F146 and the screw is number F147. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09319.JPG)
There was what looked like wear on one of the pistons. They are discontinued but I measured it and it was 1.552” diameter (above the serviceable limit of 1.551”) and it was round and straight within spec too so I’m using it. The springs were well in spec too so I’m going to use them too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09392.JPG)
All these little rings are also discontinued so I veeery carefully removed them. They are all very similar so I measured them and recorded the sizes in my parts manual so I wouldn’t mix them up at reassembly. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09525.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 22, 2012, 06:12:30 pm
As usual, great work, Mark. Thank you so much for sharing.
232's steel legs were surprisingly badly pitted and rusted, nothing that could be cleaned up on the lathe.
I had to replace them. Since they are nla from Honda, i had Forking by Frank in Chicago make a set. Frank's has been around since the early-mid 60's.
a trick we use at my friend's m/c repair shop, in cases where there are less than a few small pitted areas, we use JB weld and then clean up the leg on the lathe. Never had JB weld repair come back. I realize, of course, we are restorers, so a repair like this seems crude. None the less, an effective and easy repair.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on December 23, 2012, 04:12:15 am
All my fork bits are now mixed up so i might have to pick your brains about what bits and what sizes go where and what way round etc I usually tear things down then stand back and thing why didnt i pay more attention to what goes where pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on December 23, 2012, 06:32:56 am
I´m a little puzzled about the partslist concerning this. I have reassembled 2 early front forks and they both had that pipe Markb referring to regarding screw and washer. In the partslist the pipe is described only as a K2-part and is totally missing for the first two pages of front forks. As it is a K2 piece, Honda is delivering both screw and washer.
When I was restoring the front end I took some pictures that describe the order for the rings. As I can recall I think the second ring should change place with the shallow piston ring to be correct, otherwise it should be in this order.
I attach some pictures regarding this.
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 23, 2012, 12:14:20 pm
My recall on 69-70; which exact fork parts are interchangeable with 71-onward is a bit fuzzy.
What i am certain of is, certain 1969 type fork internals including legs do not interchange, won't fit 71-onward fork internals. In other words, you can't mix 69 parts with 71 parts to build a set of forks.
IF i recall correctly, sandcast/"K0" internal parts are all the same. Beginning K1, internals were changed for better dampening characteristics, more and different parts were added.
Our friend Chris Rushton can recite these details from memory. My self, to recall the differeneces, i would need to look up my notes as well as compare 69 parts book with 71 parts book to see which parts these models share in common and which parts are different from each other; i.e, what will interchange and what will not.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 23, 2012, 12:55:55 pm
Ken, Interesting about the screw and washer. I checked some later parts manuals and you're correct, they are listed. Good to know. The pipes were included as part of the lower cases on earlier models. Ken & Pete, My wire rings were in the order shown in the second picture. The top most ring was .070 diameter. The next ring down was flat .048 thick. The third one down was .054 diameter. The bottom one is obvious. If I look close in my early part manual it looks like that matches. If you look at the parts diagram from the K0-K2 parts manual shown below the top three are (top to bottom) numbers 9-12, 11 & 12. The quantity for item 9 is 2 for the K0 and 0 for the K1-K2. The quantity for item 12 is 2 for the K0 and 4 for the K1-K2. So it appears that item 9 is only used on the early model. By the way, the damper ring, item 8, has a chamfer on the inside that goes down against item 12. Does any of this make sense? Mark (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/normal_Front_fork.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 23, 2012, 03:33:58 pm
So now what to do with the tubes? The top halves of the tubes are pretty rough. The bottoms were OK and no one would see how bad they are but I would know. I considered having them built up and reground but decided against it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09522.JPG)
I also considered tubes from Yamiya and Forks by Frank but fortunately I was able to score on two Honda NOS tubes. I had to buy them from two different sellers but I can’t believe I found them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09511.JPG)
I was a little concerned that they might have some surface rust on them but they were clean on the outside. What little there was on the inside cleaned up nice when I stuffed an oily rag through them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09524.JPG)
I inspected them carefully and they match the originals exactly. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09513.JPG)
I decide to put them together before I misplace any of the parts. Here they are all assembled. I oiled them up real good on the inside and outside and wrapped them up to put away until I need them. It feels good to actually get something put back together. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09527.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on December 23, 2012, 04:29:35 pm
Mark i have the same with my forks, i still cant decide what to do, my trouble is i have run out of money, and worse than that i have no work so, it will be a struggle to afford anymore new parts for quite a while Pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 24, 2012, 07:46:02 am
Pete, Sorry to hear about your situation. You're sure doing a nice job on your project. Maybe Santa will be good to you this year. ;) I'm sure I could have cleaned mine up (although they still would have been badly pitted). But functionally they would have worked just fine. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 24, 2012, 02:02:54 pm
I got another little project done. This is probably the ultimate in anal but I’m glad I did it. Remember my rear brake panel with the notch broken out? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08060.JPG)
I wanted to rescue it because it is different from later sandcasts. It’s the only one I’ve seen like it. The one on the left is from #97. The one on the right is from #1553. Notice the 4 round areas on the ribs near the center hole of the later one. There seems to be some subtle differences on the outside too but nothing distinct. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC08057.JPG)
I had my welder use some of my homemade welding welds to fill it in hoping the color would match. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09042.JPG)
Then I made up a fixture so I could put it on the mill and machine the OD and backside. This is after machining. I was tempted to use a burr and try to remove some of the extra weld to make it look less like it was repaired. I still might. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09528.JPG)
And here’s the outside. I did it all with a file and sandpaper. Very tedious. Still a lot of polishing to do on the rest of it but I think it turned out great. You have to look really close to see it. Me and you guys are the only ones who will know that it is a special, early, rare sandcast part. But that’s part of the satisfaction of it. :) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09537.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 24, 2012, 04:31:44 pm
Mark, great observation on the 4 round areas of the backing plate ! Make me (almost) want to remove the rear wheel on 232 and see what's in there ! It's really great you have the later vins to compare parts to ! 4363 came first to me, what was there appeared original to bike, by the time i had 232, 4363 was restored, so nothing to compare to. 2157 came after 232 was restored, so again, nothing to compare these finer details to... :'( The one distinction of 232's rear sprocket carrier, which i believe we've discussed in other posts, was the 4 bolts fixing sprocket to carrier, these bolts had early "8" on the face of the head.
I'm so glad you are able to take the time to compare parts. Being anal is what restorers like us do; it's careful observation to documenting what we believe correct for a particular vin production run.
Would say the details on the inside of the backing plate on 97 should go on the distinctions list.... ?
Seems it's easy to lose these distinction in posts which, in some cases, tend to get buried in the BB..
If you guys think of it and have the time, would you shoot me an email, that way i will be sure to get them in the "Distinctions" list. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 31, 2012, 10:54:36 am
I’ve been procrastinating what to do with my rear driven flange. It has deep grooves worn in it from the chain guard. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09546.JPG)
In the worst areas they may be up to 0.5mm (.020”) deep or more. Hard to believe that a plastic chain guard could cause so much damage. I considered using the one from #1553 but it wasn’t much better. And since this is a common problem it’s not likely I’ll find an early one without gouges so I decided to try to save it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09548.JPG)
I was tempted to put it on the lathe but in the end I did it all with files and sandpaper. I took a couple of hours but it turned out great! I still have plenty of work to do but the hard part is done. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09552.JPG)
While I was working on it I noticed something interesting. There are three center punch marks on the hub. Anyone know the significance of that? Maybe an indication that a recall was done? Since this is a restore should I remove them? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09553.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on December 31, 2012, 11:02:33 am
Mark: I would not remove the three punch marks as they are part of the history of the bike indicating service bulletins have been complied with on this particular vin. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 31, 2012, 11:04:37 am
I can't remember, did 97 have updated drive cushions ? If so, the punchmarks could be from the update ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on December 31, 2012, 11:09:23 am
Mark: Nice job of blending on the rear flange it looks real good. I think i'll go the same route on my rear flange. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on December 31, 2012, 11:21:35 am
Steve: It looks like the drive cushions were updated at one time (see page 23 of this thread). Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 31, 2012, 11:31:10 am
Mark: I would not remove the three punch marks as they are part of the history of the bike indicating service bulletins have been complied with on this particular vin. Marty K.
Steve: It looks like the drive cushions were updated at one time (see page 23 of this thread). Marty K.
Weren't the cushions updated to the non-symetrical version (different size)?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on December 31, 2012, 12:03:16 pm
From what i understand the first version of drive cushions were large symmetrical with NO holes, second version large symmetrical with holes, third version four thin and four large drive cushions. I would think yours were changed from the large symmetrical NO HOLE version to the large symmetrical holed version as shown on this thread on page 23. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 31, 2012, 03:07:32 pm
From what i understand the first version of drive cushions were large symmetrical with NO holes, second version large symmetrical with holes, third version four thin and four large drive cushions. I would think yours were changed from the large symmetrical NO HOLE version to the large symmetrical holed version as shown on this thread on page 23. Marty K.
I agree with that too. It looks like the second version came with Service Bulletin #15 dated March 16, 1970 and the third version came with SB #32 dated August 13, 1971.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 31, 2012, 06:57:44 pm
Page 6 of SB #15, reads - "Identify the installation of the rear hub damper rubbers by making three center-punch marks on the drive flange hub just outboard of the final driven sprocket at the rear wheel hub (see Fig. 4)."
Not to steal the topic, but SB #15 and it's revison dated 1/31/75 both discuss, "Some early CB-750 units used large coils...." The SB goes on to discuss the specifics of filing a small notch in the frame cross piece to clear the larger junction box of the replacement 1-4 thr.cable assembly.
Mark, does #97 have coils different from your later vins ? Has there been a notch filed in the frame cross piece ? (Drawing on page 8 of SB #15 show where the notch is to be filed.)
I seem to recall looking for this modification on 232 which did not have a notch filed in the cross piece and the coils appeared same as coils i've seen on all other units. (Coils/brackets appeared having not ever been moved until my ownership.) 232 came with a K4 engine which had earlier K1 type carbs installed. With the boxes of 'sandcast' parts accompanying 232, came the early long choke lever carbs replete with 3 of 4 of the #28 caps/assemblies. One #28 assembly was missing.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 01, 2013, 11:38:38 am
Mark, does #97 have coils different from your later vins ? Has there been a notch filed in the frame cross piece ? (Drawing on page 8 of SB #15 show where the notch is to be filed.)
I am familiar with that modification. I will have to check the coils and see if my frame has the notch. I will report back. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 01, 2013, 12:19:41 pm
It would be nice to have side by side pictures of early and later coils. Another difference to go into the "Distinctions" list.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 03, 2013, 06:26:04 pm
On to the oil filter cover. There is a lot of road blast on it. And there are pits and imperfections all over it which I’ve learned are typical on the early smooth covers. My plan is to remove enough of the blast to make it look about the same all over. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09539.JPG)
I carefully chucked it in the lathe and went to work with sandpaper. I think it turned out pretty good. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09566.JPG)
There are still plenty of imperfections. It’s hard to resist removing them. Next a brushed polish finish and then clear coat. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09568.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on January 03, 2013, 08:18:58 pm
Looks great Mark! I wouldn't remove a spec more!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on January 03, 2013, 10:35:32 pm
Mark the oil filter cover has just the right look, be extra careful when you tighten the center bolt when you reinstall it on the engine, the cover cracks under pressure fairly easily. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on January 04, 2013, 03:06:43 am
Great work, i would say you got that just right mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 04, 2013, 04:43:57 am
An Ozzie expression is "spiffo" which translated into Yankee speak is Man that is Ohhhhhh so good
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 06, 2013, 01:40:18 pm
While I was at it I figured I might as well clean up my oil filter cover with the fins removed. Can you tell which one is the real thing? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09601.JPG)
Of course you can tell when you look inside. The fake is on the left. I'll probably use it to test run the engine to avoid risking cracking the real one and put the real one later. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09602.JPG)
And you can also tell by looking closely at the surface. The real thing won’t be smooth. By the way, I'm not done polishing yet. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09605.JPG) [/quote]
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Riccardo on January 06, 2013, 03:25:30 pm
Mark: I would not remove the three punch marks as they are part of the history of the bike indicating service bulletins have been complied with on this particular vin. Marty K.
I agree!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on January 07, 2013, 08:01:44 am
It was pretty easy to differentiate between the two from the out side view, with the original sandcast one on the right. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 13, 2013, 11:07:44 am
Most of you have probably seen these pics in another thread but I added it here to keep this thread complete. After removing the chain guard damage I noticed chain damage on the outside of the four posts. I was worried I wouldn’t be able to save it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09577.JPG)
But I got out the sandpaper and started with the worst one first and fortunately it’s going to clean up just fine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09631.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Ferenz62 on February 14, 2013, 04:29:55 pm
Dear MarkB, this is Tom from Gemany. I have been watching your fantastic threads for so long, and finally became member of the sandcast forum. First there should be some introduction of myself, but what I am going to do... later. If somebody has some interrest in what my bikes are, check my youtube posts: Ferenz1111 or visit my CB calendar homepage www.cbfour-kalender.de (http://www.cbfour-kalender.de) . As well I am watching eBay and craiglist to get my personal sandcast from there, but the time has not come yet to get the right one for me. However, some weeks ago, a guy sold a CB K0 at ebay, and one guy asked him questions and mentioned he was as a 16 year old boy owner of sandcast no. 1000097. I made contact to the seller and he gave me the emailadress of the first owner, which is dkpmoto@gmail.com Maybe you already know this, but if not I would be glad to reunite your fantastic restoration with the first owner of no.1000097. Very best regards from Germany, Four fourever, Tom .
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 15, 2013, 05:09:36 pm
Hi Tom, First off thanks for the compliment and welcome to the board. I actually did see that auction and contacted the seller to get the email too. However, it wasn't until I saw your post that I actually got around to emailing him. So far I haven't heard back from him but I'm hoping. I'll share any interesting info I get. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Ferenz62 on February 18, 2013, 03:01:20 am
Hi Mark,
great to hear that. Hope for your next posts, to see the restoration growing. This week, hopefully I will get the new and improved gauges covers from Lecram, Marcel den Butter. soon I got them I will report about it.
Four fourever, Tom from Germany. :D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 18, 2013, 07:06:05 pm
I got a reply. Turns out the engine number was 1000097. The frame was 1000106. Still interesting, it was worth checking out.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 03, 2013, 06:26:47 pm
I'm still working on my aluminum parts and I have a couple of questions.
Has anyone observed that the original polishing on wheel hubs, rear flange and rear brake panel is shinier than the engine covers or are they the same? Did the original finish still have that brushed look?
Are the surfaces of the later sandcast covers nicer than the early ones? My alternator cover and transmission covers seem to have a lot of pitting, similar to but not as much as my oil filter cover. They show up more now that I'm getting a polish on them.
Last one, what have you guys used to remove old clear coat? I used Aircraft Remover on my rear flange but the areas between the "spokes" is still yellowed and I'm wondering if it's old clear coat or what. The remover seems to have taken the clear coat off everywhere else.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Marcello Tha on October 12, 2013, 10:29:08 pm
I can not wait to see new posts on this restoration.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 13, 2013, 01:55:25 pm
You shouldn't have to wait much longer. My boating and fishing season is about over and I plan to get back on it soon. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 20, 2013, 04:46:58 pm
Well I can say that I'm officially back at it. I had to read my own thread to try to figure out where I am. ::) I really should be finishing up my covers. They're about 90% done. But you know how that goes. The last 10% will take 50% of the time. I need to get psyched up for that but I wanted to start doing something.
So I saw where I had plastigaged my mains but I never got around to the rods. I noted that I had used yellow-green-yellow-green-yellow. I double-checked that against my notes and the charts and it seems like what I really need is green-yellow-green-yellow-green. Maybe I just wrote it down wrong and I don't know why but I didn't leave the bearings in the cases so I really don't know where I'm at. Besides, whatever I did put me at the high limit and was considering going up one size anyway. So I am going to order some browns and use the greens and order some blacks for the rods and redo everything.
I notice that the newer main bearings have two extra holes in them. Anyone know the purpose of this? I'd like to find some early style but I'm not sure it's worth it. I think I'm softening on my requirements for "correct". Also does anyone know a good source where I can buy them for less than $10 each?
I had some questions about polishing from a couple of posts ago. Any thoughts? By the way, I did find something that removed the yellowing, a mild solution of phosphoric acid.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 27, 2013, 05:27:27 pm
I plastigaged my rods. I decided to buy 1 pair of browns and check all four rods with them. Three of them came in around .0018” and the journal that I had reground was .0015”. The good news was none of them were tapered. Since .0018” is on the high limit I’m going to order blacks for the three bigger ones and stay with the browns on the last one. I ordered the browns for the mains but didn’t have time to do them yet.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 03, 2013, 12:59:32 pm
I finished plastigaging my crank. I ended up with black-black-black-brown on the rods and brown-green-brown-green-brown on the mains. Everything was less than .0018 and most were close to .0015. While I was at it I finally put the setscrew plugs in the oil paths before I forget. They are an M6.0 x 10 cup point. If anyone needs some let me know. I have plenty. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09960.JPG)
Here’s the rods assembled on the crank. They felt real good. And it’s nice to have something put together. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09961.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: greggo325 on November 03, 2013, 01:16:35 pm
Looks great Mark! Are you hoping to be finished by the spring?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 04, 2013, 10:19:17 am
Yes, that is my goal. We'll se what other snags I run into and hopefully work won't be as crazy as last winter.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 04, 2013, 10:22:01 am
I’d like to start putting my cases together soon and realize I’m going to need an oil pump. The one from E100 is locked up tight. I’m not sure I’ll even be able to rebuild it. Besides that one I’ve got two other pumps that came out of sandcast engines and three that came out of diecast engines. I think I will just tear the sandcast ones apart unless I need parts from the others and hopefully I can end up with at least two good ones. One of them feels real good and I can hear pumping noises when I turn the gear. Here’s a pic of the six. The E100 pump is the one on the lower right. The top row is diecast pumps and the other two are sandcast pumps. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3387.JPG)
Before I started taking them apart I carefully looked them over and made some interesting observations. There are four different versions that I see. Rather than clog up this thread I started a thread about oil pump differences here: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=1084.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=1084.0)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 05, 2013, 09:11:28 am
I have the pump bodies separated from the bases on the three sandcast pumps. None of the screens looked good and since they are available from Yamiya I didn’t bother trying to save them. I just poked a hole in them and pried them off. Then I removed the four screws holding the bodies and bases together. I noticed that they were pan head screws on all three pumps. The 4/69 parts manual shows hex heads and so does my shop manual. The later parts manual shows pan head screws. Has anyone ever seen hex heads?
Next step is to take the bodies apart. Before I did I noticed what I thought was an odd thing. On the two later pumps that aren’t froze up I saw there was about a ¼” of axial play on the gear shaft. Here’s a shot with the gear pushed in. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00295.JPG)
Here’s a shot with the gear pulled out. Is this normal? What keeps the gear from floating around? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00296.JPG)
I spent about an hour with an impact driver trying to remove the three flat head screws that hold the bodies together. I had already soaked them and tried heat but they wouldn’t budge. I finally decided to just drill out the heads. It took me about five minutes to do all three pumps. Believe it or not the cover on the E100 pump came off quite easily. However, just as I expected it’s not good news. It’s a little milky and corroded inside. At least the screws stuck out enough that I could remove them. I turned them all out easy with my fingers. The flat head was obviously seized on them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00299.JPG)
Wiping it off it doesn’t look any better. I have to quit for now. Maybe the other two pumps will look better. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00300.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 06, 2013, 05:50:10 pm
The two later sandcast pumps are apart and they do look better. At least one of them has been apart before. Notice absence of the punch mark on the inner rotor of this one. I checked and it’s on the inside. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00312.JPG)
Here is how they’re supposed to be. Both of these rotors look a little scored. I have access to a surface grinder and a lathe so I’m planning on grinding the rotors and turning off the ends of the body to bring the side clearance in spec. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00313.JPG)
This cover looks pretty good and the ones on the other side look good. I’ll get at least one good pump out of three. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00316.JPG)
I’m not sure why but I’m still soaking the E100 pump to see if I can get it apart. I can’t imagine the rotors are worth saving but I guess I just want to see.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 06, 2013, 08:31:37 pm
Mark, it's nice to see you're back sharing your project.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 07, 2013, 05:44:21 pm
Thanks, it's good to be back at it. ;D And if you guys see anything that I'm doing wrong, please let me know. That's part of the reason I share is so I can get expert feedback.
By the way, about the endplay thing from a couple of posts back. I checked my three diecast pumps and they were the same so I have concluded it's normal. I might have to wait until I install one to see what prevents the gear from floating.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 10, 2013, 05:03:52 pm
I got the E100 pump body apart. It took some soaking and heat but I am pleased that the other side doesn’t look too bad. I had a couple of surprises when I cleaned up the rotors with some Scotchbrite. The first one was how nice they cleaned up. They look better than some of the others. And unfortunately I didn’t notice this until I had the rotors cleaned but none of them have punch marks! So I have lost how they were oriented in the body. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3441.JPG)
I have everything apart on all three pumps except I haven’t been able to get the check valves out of two of them. Hopefully with more soaking and some heat they will come loose. I did get the seals out though. My method is to remove the rubber part and drill a 1/16” diameter hold on each side of the remaining seal housing. Not through, just enough to get something to hook on. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3447.JPG)
Then I have an old center punch that I ground a little flat on one side. I put the shaft in the pump and push the point of the center punch in the hole and taking care not to touch the mating surfaces, I gently lift the body and tap it on the bench so the end of the shaft hits the center punch. A couple of taps is all it took. Two of the seals came out without moving to the other side. The whole process took me less than fifteen minutes. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3449.JPG)
I cleaned everything up and even the bores on the E100 body look good. I checked the rotor clearances and all three were in spec. The gear shaft on E100 is badly pitted and some of the covers have some good gouges but everything else looks pretty good. If I can get the check valve out of one of the other bases I think I can come up with two decent pumps.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 11, 2013, 04:49:06 pm
Since I got the cases out to plastigage the bearings, I’ve been thinking about putting oil plugs back in it before I forget. So I finally did the one on the alternator side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09962.JPG)
And then I was going to put the front one in and started having an anal attack and wondered if it should be painted or not. :o I should have just put it in before painting. ::) Either way I had to plug the whole. How about it, can anyone tell me if theirs looks painted or not? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09963.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 17, 2013, 06:22:23 pm
I'm pretty sure that plug had paint on it. I'm not much of a painter but I can handle that. No one else would probably ever know. But I would.
I'm still trying to get the relief valves out of the two oil pump bases. And I'm waiting for parts anyway. So on to other stuff.
I need a new rotor and starter clutch. This is the one from E100. I got the screws out but this thing just isn’t coming apart and probably wouldn’t be usable if I could get it apart. I’m not going to be able to save every part. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09964.JPG)
I bought a couple of cheap ones off ebay. I don’t trust what is inside so I am going to take them apart. There are some little holes in the starter clutch and the gear so I like to make sure everything is clean. I don’t bother trying to get the screws out. They are a common 8x22 flat head. A drill press makes easy work of them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09965.JPG)
Then after you get the starter clutch out the screws usually come out by hand. One of the rotors would not come apart so I got that one soaking. The other is all cleaned up and has new springs and rollers and is all put together and ready to put on the crank. Just waiting for the seal for the gear. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09966.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Marcello Tha on November 17, 2013, 07:07:18 pm
You give us a lesson in every post.
Marcello
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on November 17, 2013, 09:12:34 pm
Mark. I have the front plug out of 576 here on my desk along with my new one. There are no signs of paint at all on the original plug.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 18, 2013, 08:48:45 am
I went ahead and painted anyway. I put it in without and where it's recessed it was hard to tell if it was painted or not. Same now that it has some paint on it so I think I leave it that way. It's such a nitpicky detail I just don't want to think about it anymore. :-\
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 18, 2013, 07:59:24 pm
So it was bugging me that I couldn’t get the one rotor apart. I was thinking all day about it. I had plans to machine a ring just slightly bigger than the clutch body and high enough to make room for the clutch to drop out and mount the ring to a plate. Then in the center of the ring I would mount a rod that the rotor would fit over. Instead I found a 2’ piece of 5/8” diameter rod and clamped it in a vise. I had a piece of scrap plate that happened to have a 5/8” diameter hole in it and slipped it on the rod. Then I stuck three blocks of aluminum, with double-sided tape so they wouldn’t move, with enough clearance to contact the rotor outside of the clutch diameter. Then I put the rotor on the rod and dropped it a couple of times from about a foot. Nothing. So I tried it from two feet. Three drops and it was apart. If you’re going to try this I would recommend taking out the pins and springs (I did) because they will pop out. Total time was about fifteen minutes. Here’s a picture of my setup. I was thinking of trying it on the E100 rotor but if it’s that rough on the outside it has to bad on the inside.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 25, 2013, 09:36:22 am
I’m kind of jumping around here but I want to get the last two oil pumps apart so I can clean everything up and see what I have. I haven’t been able to get the relief valves out of the bases. Every couple of days I sprayed some Aero Kroil on them. Then I would heat up the base with the torch and tap it on the bench and try to pull them out with needle-nose pliers. They just won’t come out so I made a relief valve extractor. I started with a piece of ¾” bar stock and bored a 12mm hole to fit on the end of the valve and turned the OD to fit inside the housing. Then I tapped holes for #6 set screws right on the end. If you look close you can see where the threads are almost breaking through. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00375.JPG)
They have to be that close otherwise you can’t get at the set screws when you put it on the end of the valve. I could have used #4 set screws but they are really small and I wanted to get as much grip on the end of the valve as I could. I wasn’t worried about marring up this surface because just the spring goes over it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00376.JPG)
Then I hooked it onto the end of a slide hammer (dent puller). I heated the base with the torch until it was really smoking and used the end of the bench to hold it as I gently tapped on it with the slide. I didn’t want to do it too hard because I didn’t want the set screws to slip. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00377.JPG)
I did the newer one first. About 10 taps and it was out. Here is the E100 one. Believe it or not it came out easier. Now to see if I can save them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00378.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2013, 04:37:00 pm
I got my seal for the starter gear so I’m ready to put the rotor on the crank. I’m glad I had some time to think about it. I had forgotten to stake the screw heads. I used an old tip from an impact driver set. Worked great. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3594.JPG)
I torque the rotor bolt to 60 ft. lbs. according to the specs. Then I thought about it, that’s probably the torque for the 12mm bolt. Should I have torque it to the spec for a 10mm bolt (25 in. lbs.)? I left it for now and dropped it in the cases with new chains. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3595.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 02, 2013, 08:49:58 am
I've been thinking about the rotor bolt torque and I would really like someone to weigh in on this. The chart I use is out of a Honda manual. You can check it out but it's not a great image. It shows a 10mm bolt at 21.7-28.9 ft. lbs. and the rotor bolt at 57.9-65.2 ft. lbs. which I assume is the 12mm variety. Anyone have an opinion on this? I’m concerned I might have over-torqued the bolt but I don’t want it coming loose either.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 02, 2013, 12:07:59 pm
Yes, that 60 (+-) pound figure called for in the Honda manual is for 12 mm dry and is a value for grade 8 bolt. I would think the 10 mm rotor bolt should be tightened to around 33-36 ft.lbs. (Below grade 8, the 15-22 ft.lb range.) (That shaft is not soft like a grade 5, so around 30 ft.lb.)
Hardened 10 mm engine bolts at the shop i work at, we tighten to 40-45 nm which is same as 33-36 ft.lb. Chassis bolts (rarely use a torque wrench on chassis fasteners) is around 20 ft.lb.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 02, 2013, 03:50:43 pm
Steve, Thanks for the thorough answer. That goes right along with other info I learned. That is that the CB550 rotor bolt is a 10mm and the manual specifies 28.9-30.3 ft. lbs. On one hand I think since it's already tightened why worry about it but on the other I'm concerned that the bolt is overstressed and could crack if there is a shock load. I'll feel better about backing it off.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 02, 2013, 07:09:10 pm
yeah, i think i'd take it back where it needs to be. leaving that torque setting would keep me nutty. i understand not wanting to loosen it... should be fine. if not, much better than snapping in operation or having it eat at you ad nauseum, ad infinitum for not loosening it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2013, 03:11:54 pm
I loosened and retorqued the rotor bolt to 30 ft. lbs. I put on some Loctite thread locker just to be safe. I feel better now. While I was at it I thought it would be interesting to document some of the distinctions between the early and later sandcasts. Since 97/E100 is so early it has most if not all of them. Here is the early and later rotor bolt. The early one is on the right. It is an M10 x 1.25 x 45mm long with a plain 17mm hex head. The later one is larger and has a finer thread. It is an M12 x 1.0 x 53mm long with a 19mm plain hex head and is necked down near the head and has a thread locking patch on it. Of course the cranks are threaded accordingly. The 10mm rotor bolt is used on engines up to 1080. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00455.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2013, 03:35:46 pm
Now that the crank is in, on to the transmission. The originals are in rough shape. I’m not going to be able to keep everything original anyway so I going to use parts from a donor engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3596.JPG)
Same with the clutch. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3593.JPG)
My replacements look really good but since I don’t know the history of them I’m going to replace all the bearings including the needle bearings in the primary drive. I got all the ball bearings from Yamiya for $100 including the shipping. I couldn’t come close to that from the local bearing supply stores. I bought the needle bearings separately for $12 apiece. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00457.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2013, 04:10:58 pm
Here is a distinction on the clutch. The later engines have a one piece clutch center as shown on the left. The early ones have a separate clutch plate that is held onto the center with a wire retainer. The three pieces are shown on the right. The early version went up to engine 1759. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00458.JPG)
Here’s a close up of the clutch centers showing the groove and the hole for the retainer on the early one. I know why they changed the design. The retainer is a PITA to install. They are a discontinued part but I managed to find a couple so I bought them. Good thing I did because I already broke one. Before I break another does anyone have any advice for installing them? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00460.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2013, 04:55:46 pm
I got it! I tried another retainer and it went right in. I compared it to the one that broke and it appears that the other one was too short. Maybe from another similar Honda clutch? The ends wouldn’t go all the way through the hole like in the picture. By the way, that is a new clutch plate. I also bought the other six plates, new friction discs, springs and lock washer. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00461.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 23, 2013, 06:09:12 pm
I finally had a significant amount of time to do some work over the weekend. I was hoping to make some real progress for a change. Not to be (as you will soon see).
I first decided to wrap up the oil pump. I had the three sandcast bodies and bases hot tanked and ultrasonically cleaned. There was a lot of thick sludge in the passageways and I wanted to make sure they were clean. The early one still looks pretty rough but I decided to reassemble the other two. The check valve holes were varnished up so I ran a 12mm reamer into them to clean them out and then polished them up a bit. Then I picked the best sets of rotors and other parts from six pumps and measured everything (bores, OD’s, thicknesses, depths, feeler gauge clearances) to make sure all was in spec. I used the cream of the crop for the pump I’m putting in E100. Also new seals, springs and oil stopper valves for both. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3806.JPG)
I liberally oiled everything and put them together. The one slated for E100 went together perfect and feels great. Then the second pump not so much. I could feel a little catch at certain points when I rotated the gear. Took it apart several times and re-inspected everything and even changed pins, rotor sets, etc. I finally gave up for now and put a tag on it so I won’t forget and will get back to it later. I probably should have just moved on right away since the second pump isn’t helping with this project but I’m trying to come up with a way to test them and it would be nice to do both. Instead I ended up wasting the better part of the afternoon. :( (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3807.JPG)
So I decided to finish up with the main shaft and clutch. Everything went well until I got to the clutch. Somehow I ended up with the wrong (incorrect, they would still work but correct for later clutches) friction plates and clutch springs (too long). I still haven’t figured out if I ordered the wrong ones or just got the wrong ones. Sometimes it’s frustrating not being able to just finish something. :'(
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 23, 2013, 06:25:36 pm
Ok it’s Sunday now and I figure I’ll tackle something easy. I’ve got a couple of nice final shafts and gears (the original shaft, gear and bearings are one solid rusted piece) so I pull one out and put on new bearings. I notice that someone has plugged the oil hole to disable the automatic oiler and decided to leave it that way for now. I set it in place in the upper case and gave it a spin expecting it to be nice and smooth. That would have been too easy. The gear was definitely rubbing. :o I pulled that shaft out to take a look. Here’s a pic of the case. You can see where someone (at the factory?) had done some grinding. If you look to the right of that you can see a radial line where it appears the old gear was rubbing. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3810.JPG)
I kept looking at the manual and my other shafts just to make sure I put it together right. There’s only two ways to put the gear on (it has a wider shoulder on one side than the other) and the other would make it worse. I even tried one of my other shafts and gears hoping that would fix it. Nope. My head was getting sore from scratching it. To be sure where it was rubbing I marked it up with a red sharpie and you can definitely see it. So I got out the Dremel and took the crank and main shaft out and covered the mains (so I wouldn’t get grinding dust on them) and went at it. I didn’t have the greatest tips and they kept loading up so it took forever. I lost count of how many times I took the shaft in and out. Every time I’d grind and remark it I would find another high spot. ??? Finally it quit rubbing and I ground all over one more time for good measure and even then it really wasn’t much that I ground off. So that’s a couple more hours I’ll never get back. I hate to say it but after that I just didn’t feel like doing any more today. I guess that’s what happens when you work with sand castings. ;D I hope there’s more clearance on the other half. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG3811.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 26, 2013, 08:05:30 pm
I’ve been thinking about the interference on the final shaft gear so I checked out the upper case from E1490 and I’m guessing this wasn’t a rare problem. This case obviously had to be machined to provide enough clearance. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00484.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 28, 2013, 03:38:23 pm
Here’s another interesting distinction. The oil plug just above the oil filter housing and on the upper case is different. On the left is the early one that is used up to E219. The head measures approximately 16.5mm and it uses a packing with a square cross section. The one on the right is on engines E220 and up and measures approximately 18.5mm and uses an o-ring. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00490.JPG)
While comparing the cases I took pictures of another distinction. The early upper cases have cast bosses with untapped 6mm holes in the primary chain tunnel area. It appears it could have been intended for mounting a tensioner or guide for the primary chain. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Primary_Tunnel1.JPG)
Here’s a pic of a later case (E1490) without the holes. It’s been observed that this changed occurred somewhere around number 200. Besides the plug change noted above there were other changes to the cases at 220. I would guess the holes probably disappeared then too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Primary_Tunnel2.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 28, 2013, 05:31:12 pm
Just a thought Mark but I'm not sure the engine number is a good guide. I'm assuming of course that the cases were numbered randomly and probably after engine building thus what might hold for engine X may not hold for engine Y. Nevertheless the fact there are these variations being identified occurred is amazing historic information. Ill measure the plug on 342 when I return from holidays. Is the plug easy enough to measure without removal from the engine as I don't want to remove it if I can help it. kP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 29, 2013, 12:22:23 pm
KP, you have a good point. The K0 parts manual shows a change to the plug at 220 but depending on how and when the cases were numbered it certainly seems possilbe that the small plug could be found on engines after 219. We'll probably never know for sure.
It might be a little difficult to get at but you should at least be able to measure yours close enough to see if it's the small or the larger plug.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on December 29, 2013, 12:42:05 pm
Here’s another interesting distinction. The oil plug just above the oil filter housing and on the upper case is different. On the left is the early one that is used up to E219. The head measures approximately 16.5mm and it uses a packing with a square cross section. The one on the right is on engines E220 and up and measures approximately 18.5mm and uses an o-ring. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00490.JPG)
While comparing the cases I took pictures of another distinction. The early upper cases have cast bosses with untapped 6mm holes in the primary chain tunnel area. It appears it could have been intended for mounting a tensioner or guide for the primary chain. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Primary_Tunnel1.JPG)
Here’s a pic of a later case (E1490) without the holes. It’s been observed that this changed occurred somewhere around number 200. Besides the plug change noted above there were other changes to the cases at 220. I would guess the holes probably disappeared then too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Primary_Tunnel2.JPG)
Great pictures, Mark. Especially for proving these cases were cast in sand molds. Look closely at these case pictures and you will see many variations, bosses, "funny" marks, web thickness, etc. Check out the extra material around the right, lower (in the picture) primary bearing boss. I don't believe you would see these variations from permanent molds. They would have had to be re-machining them between pours or had multiple DIFFERENT permanent molds producing those variations.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 06, 2014, 03:35:56 pm
I got my clutch friction disks and springs so I could finish main shaft. I took both transmission shafts apart to inspect them and make sure they were assembled correctly and there are a lot of small holes that I wanted to make sure weren’t plugged. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00512.JPG)
Here’s another distinction on the clutch. According to the parts manuals, up to engine 1759, the six inner friction disks had longer tabs than the one in the outer clutch ring. I think they were the same disks used on the 450’s. After 1759 there are a total of seven of the shorter tabbed disks. There’s no reason that I could see that they couldn’t have used seven of the shorter tabbed disks on earlier engines. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00511.JPG)
I’ve got everything in the cases except for the kick starter and I’ll be ready to put the cases together. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00513.JPG)
Here is the way I aligned my primary chains. This is how I have always done it but I have heard that some people prefer to jump a tooth on one strand to offset the links on the primary chains. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00514.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on January 06, 2014, 08:54:31 pm
Mark,
Not sure how MUCH difference the alignment of the primary chains actually makes, but I think it does. It appears that they are "offset" in all actual photos in the shop manual excepting a drawing, Fig. 3-91. As best as I can blow them up to see, Figs 3-75, 3-76, 3-84, 3-85, 3-88, and 5-3 all look like the chains are "offset". There is no mention that I can find regarding this in the manual. I have always assembled them "lined up" like in your picture because I tend to be a symmetry kind of guy. But I had already made a decision that I would "offset" them on future builds, stock or not. Now granted I made this decision based on a performance engine I am building and was trying to leave no stone unturned. Should be applicable to a stock engine as well. It makes more sense to me to "offset" them because on an OEM chain I recently measured, there was .026"/.66mm difference in thickness between the inside and outside links. I think the "offset" will effectively "balance" the combined strength of the chains. It might reduce some of the primary noise that becomes very evident when the timing and carbs are not closely synchronized.
Frequently you will find uneven "stretch" between the 2 chains when examining a teardown of an engine with some miles on it. I have never checked the chain alignment during any previous disassembly but will note it in the future. It is my understanding the uneven stretch is cause by variation in the original chains as well as the distortion that takes place in the crankshaft, transmission shaft, primary cushion rubbers, and the cases under hard acceleration. The sprockets on the primary drive are able to move independently. It was very common back in the day to weld these sprockets together on high performance application machines but only recently have I given this much thought.
Keith
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Bowswell on January 07, 2014, 09:15:22 am
some info here. http://www.satanicmechanic.org/pridrive.shtml (http://www.satanicmechanic.org/pridrive.shtml)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 07, 2014, 11:54:54 am
Thanks guys. That's one of the reasons I like to post. I appreciate any feedback. It's easy to change it now before I put the cases together. It would be nice if the link had a reason why. But Keith, your reasoning make sense.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 12, 2014, 04:53:07 pm
I have a nice block of time again so I want to try to button up the cases. I got my kick start assembly in. It took me a while to wrestle it in there but the bottom half is ready. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00535.JPG)
Then based on advice from several sources I staggered the primary chain so the top half is ready. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00525.JPG)
So then I’m double-checking everything and find that I’m missing the o-ring that goes around the big pin in the front of the cases. I was sure I had one but couldn’t find it. ??? Sometimes I wonder if this old girl ever wants to get back together.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on January 12, 2014, 09:56:59 pm
Of course it will get back together, Mark. No matter the obstacles it's all worth it. That's why we all do these restorations. It's all about the love of the bike and that first start up. Press on.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 13, 2014, 09:00:19 am
I just found out that o-ring is in my gasket set from Yamiya. ??? ::)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 19, 2014, 04:13:35 pm
I’m ready to button up the cases but before I do here is a pic of another distinction. The bearing on the primary drive on the clutch end of the main shaft is smooth on engines up to 5306. After that they have a groove. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00526.JPG)
Finally together! I had all the bolts sorted and ready to go so it went real well. Definitely not something you want to stop in the middle of. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00589.JPG)
I’m sure you guys all know this but you want to make sure you have this cable clamp on before you put the engine in the frame. You can’t remove this bolt when the engine is in the frame. Don’t ask me how I know. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC03498.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 19, 2014, 04:37:14 pm
"Im sure you guys all know this but you want to make sure you have this cable clamp on before you put the engine in the frame. You can’t remove this bolt when the engine is in the frame. Don’t ask me how I know."
heh, heh. don't ask me how i know either !!!! yup. bummer when i realized that bolt wouldn't come out to get that little aluminum strap in there !!!!
Beautiful work, Mark !
Thanks for sharing with us !!!!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on January 21, 2014, 01:48:35 am
Nice work Mark , great tip about the cable clamp pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on January 21, 2014, 09:05:56 am
Looking really nice, Mark.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 21, 2014, 10:34:06 am
Thanks guys. Here’s a very early distinction. According to the early parts books the engines up to 219 had an M8 x 80mm bolt at this location on the back of the case. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00581.JPG)
From engine 220 the bolt was change to a special M10 x 82mm bolt with a flange head. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00578.JPG)
The early sandcast engine number pads were 11mm wide. At some point they changed to 19mm. Notice the square near the number pad. I’m not sure if that went away with the wider pad or not. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00584.JPG)
Also the very early cases had no casting dates. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00587.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Marcello Tha on January 21, 2014, 07:29:40 pm
Congratulations Mark, what a wonderful part of history do you have.
Marcello
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on January 22, 2014, 03:17:01 pm
Hard to know when the VIN pad changed. #'s 665 and 1106 have narrow pads, whilst 856 had a wide pad. The small square near the narrow pad appears to be a feature of all of those I have seen, and not present with wider pads. #302 has no casting dates on top case, bot DOES have dates on the underside of the lower case instead.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 22, 2014, 05:04:27 pm
This may be another "some were, some were not". Some of mine appear to be painted while other ones do not. I have not had time to see if a correlation exist to the SN/EN's.
I have also purchased some off eBay where some were painted and some appeared unpainted. The "paint" appears to be more of a clear coating versus the case paint.
Maybe Steve could consult Vic on his findings.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 23, 2014, 04:01:52 am
E254 has no date markings on cases.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 02, 2014, 12:56:01 pm
Sorry I haven’t posted anything for the last month. I’ve been busy but I managed to get a few things done. I was working on my polishing and I found a guy who does great work. He does the brushed look, just like I want it. So I gave it to him to finish up so I could work on other things.
The first thing I did was get the shift linkage area and drive sprocket reassembled. The countershaft bearing holder was different on E100, it’s the one on the left. You really have to make sure the small oil passages aren’t plugged up on this guy. I soaked it in acetone three times and blew them out with compressed air until they came clean. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00532.JPG)
I got stalled for a while because I couldn’t find the double spring washer. I figured I would just buy a new one but they don’t exist anywhere anymore. Fortunately I was able to locate mine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00717.JPG)
E100 didn’t have a 16 tooth sprocket but I tracked down a nice replacement. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00718.JPG)
I didn’t install the oiler. The hole in the shaft is plugged to disable it. I have the NOS parts in case me or the next owner decides they want it to be that correct. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00740.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 03, 2014, 08:44:27 am
On to the pistons. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00724.JPG)
I had sets that had different numbers on them (2, 3, 5). These from an early sandcast have 2’s. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00723.JPG)
I’ve never had much luck installing the cylinders by pushing the rings in with my fingers. Seems like every time I do it that way I always hear a click on the last push and have to pull the cylinders off to make sure I didn’t break a ring. One time I did. I’ve used hose clamps too and they just barely cover the rings and are a little touchy so for me they just work OK. So I made up a set of ring compressors. It’s just an improvement on the hose clamp idea which I have done before too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00725.JPG)
Here’s one of the compressors in place. I snug up the hose clamp and back it off one turn and they slide perfectly. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00727.JPG)
Ready to drop the jugs on. By the way, those are all new stock studs. I was thinking of using APE's but decided to stay with correct parts. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00726.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 03, 2014, 06:24:55 pm
Now for the cylinders. The first thing I do is put some spacers under the center pistons to hold them straight. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00731.JPG)
Here I’m ready to slide the cylinders over the pistons. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00732.JPG)
And here’s the cylinders in place. The compressors worked pretty well. It’s a little tedious getting them out before you go the last inch. But for me no worse than trying to coax the rings in with your fingers. The only downside was the outside diameter of the ring halves was a little small so I had to be careful not to let them slip into the cases. If I were to do it over I would definitely make them bigger. Other than that the cylinders went on real smooooth. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00733.JPG)
After that it didn’t take long to get the head on and torqued down. As you all know torque the 8mm nuts (in correct order) before the 6mm screws. I’ll let them sit a week or two and then break them loose and retighten. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00736.JPG)
One interesting note here. Sandcast engines up to 1106 have the special 6mm cross hex flange screw at the rear of the head as well as the four under the cam towers. After 1106 the rear one is changed to a hex head. E100 came with special “8” flange hex heads so even though that’s not what the parts book says, that’s what I’m putting back. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00737.JPG)
So that pretty much catches me up with my posts for now. Not much for the last month or so but at least it’s coming along.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on March 04, 2014, 03:36:03 am
Good work mark, my engine is at a similar stage, i am getting inspiration from your posts, hopefully i will resume work on mine soon pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 24, 2014, 01:34:33 pm
I’m not going to be able to get much further until my polishing is done so I’m finally ready to get everything clear coated. I had someone help me out with a lot of it. I still had to dial it back a bit with the gray Scotchbrite. I’m going to have it clear coated in two batches (engine covers and frame parts). It’s easier for my painter that way.
I tried something new this time. I screwed all the parts onto pieces of wood. That way I can finish them up and clean them and they can be handled without touching them. I think that will make it easier for the painter too. Also I like to mask the areas that aren’t normally coated. For the clutch cover I just used a beat up old adjustment cover. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00864.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on March 24, 2014, 04:16:25 pm
I like that idea screwing them to the wood, all these great tips , loving all the pictures of your work mark, great stuff pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on March 25, 2014, 10:03:11 pm
Mark,
Are those ring compressor halves made from aluminum or stainless?
Keith
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 26, 2014, 07:43:56 am
Keith, I made them out of aluminum because that's what I had available for material, it's easy to machine and I figured it would be easier on the pistons. If I were to do them over I would make the OD larger so they wouldn't be able to drop into the cases.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 14, 2014, 08:37:03 am
I’ve been pretty busy but I was able to reach a major milestone. I finally have all my polishing and clear coating done! I really wanted to finish the whole bike by summer (I’m starting to realize it’s not going to happen) but for sure I wanted this done. This will make it easier to work on a little bit here and there. I even threw in a couple of extra parts. ;D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG4459.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on May 15, 2014, 06:09:01 pm
Looking great Mark!
What did you use for the clear coat? Duplicolor engine paint?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 18, 2014, 02:19:42 pm
I used Eastwood's Gloss Diamond Clear in the quart can and let my painter shoot it. I've had real good luck with it. Never tried the spray can. Here's a link: http://www.eastwood.com/diamond-clear-gloss-set.html (http://www.eastwood.com/diamond-clear-gloss-set.html)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on October 18, 2014, 02:56:28 pm
I know I’ve been gone for a while but my summer is over and I’m slowly getting going again. The hardest part is trying to remember where I left off. One of the last things I was working on the engine was torqueing the head nuts. It was about that time that I saw some posts about the copper washers on the outside rear head nuts to help prevent oil leaks. They're circled in the picture. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Copper_Washers.jpg) I’m ready to retorque them and in the interest of keeping things “original” I’m wondering if I can get by with using a thread sealer on the washer and threads. I looked it over and I guess I’m not sure where it will prevent the oil from going to. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 15, 2014, 03:49:56 pm
I went ahead and retorqued the head. I used thread sealer on the nuts and under the washers. I’m satisfied.
I want to continue to assemble the motor but it won’t be long and I’ll need the cam chain adjuster and the breather cap which aren’t painted yet so I want to get that done. But after looking over the adjuster I found that the seal is bad. I want to save the sandcast housing so I needed to figure out a way to repair it. After thinking about it for a while I made myself a little puller. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01178.JPG)
Here’s how it fits into the housing. I had to put the fingers in first and then screw them to the holder. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01179.JPG)
Then I put it in the arbor press with a rod through the housing and the seal cup came right out! (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01181.JPG)
There it is. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01182.JPG)
Here’s the housing without the cup and seal. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01183.JPG)
I have a donor that looks good. I don’t think there is any pressure on the seal so I figured this simple leak test would be good enough. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01184.JPG)
And here is the housing with the replacement seal and all cleaned up and ready to paint. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01185.JPG)
As long as I had it apart I figured I should identify the seal in case I do need to replace one someday. It is an 8mm x 18mm x 5mm. Honda part number 91209-MB0-003 looks to be an exact replacement. Note: I have learned that this number may not be the correct one. I am trying to verify so proceed with caution until I can confirm. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01186.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 15, 2014, 06:48:42 pm
Your work and feedback to us on this project is truly amazing Mark :o KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on November 15, 2014, 08:15:02 pm
Amazing attention to detail mark, your work is probably the best i have seen , you leave no stone unturned pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 17, 2014, 11:58:20 am
Thanks guys. I’m just trying to do a good job. Feel free to speak up if you see something you think is incorrect for this resto.
I need to decide what colors to use on my breather cover and cam chain adjuster. After discussions on other threads I agree with the consensus that the breather cover and cam chain adjuster are a darker shade than the cases and that the cover has some gloss. (By the way, I also observed that the breather covers on later VINs are even darker than E100’s).
I’ve had good luck with the Duplicolor high temp engine paints so I picked up cans of what was close to compare. It’s difficult to get the colors right in the photo but the three samples in the top row aren’t close. In the second row the E100 cover is on the left and the adjuster on the right. In the center is a sample of the DE1650. I used the DE1636 clear on the left half for some gloss. For comparison the sample on the bottom is the DE1615 that I use on the cases. I think this is pretty close and have decided this is what I am going use.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 17, 2014, 12:40:42 pm
I take the part i need matched to our local automotive paint store. They match exact and put it in an aeorosol can.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 17, 2014, 04:38:57 pm
I didn't know they could do that (put in in the aerosol can). Thanks, I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 23, 2014, 11:25:54 am
I’m jumping around a bit here but I guess that’s what happens when you have so many things that need to be done. I decided this weekend to try to finish the top end of the engine: cam holders, camshaft, rocker arms, valve cover, etc. First order of business – clean up the cam holders. That’s when things came to a screeching halt. Remember the crankshaft earlier in the thread? And all the hardened gunk that was in the oil passages? I don’t know why it didn’t dawn on me that I would have the same issues with the oil passages in the cam holders. So no problem, I figure I’ll just run drills in the passages to clean them all out. Here’s a pic of what came out of one of the holes to the cam journals. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01199.JPG)
Then I look at these holes. Plugged too. Luckily I happen to have a 1mm drill that fits that hole. But wait, here’s the problem. The junk I removed from the holes is now trapped in a hole that runs the width of the holders but that hole is plugged. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01200.JPG)
Here’s the plug. I really had no choice. The holes had to be cleaned out and that was the only way to do it. So here I am again where I really want to save the original parts if I can. They are unique to the early engines. So I need to remove the plugs. The first thing I did was drill and tap a #6-32 hole in the center of the plugs. Then I used a small drill and drilled out the dimples on the outside of the plug. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01201.JPG)
Then I adapted a #6 screw to the end of my puller. I call it a slide hammer but I think it’s for pulling dents. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01203.JPG)
Here’s my setup. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01204.JPG)
About 4 or 5 medium taps and they came out. So the hard part is done. I’m going to pick up a long drill to clean out that hole. Then just for good measure I’m going to have the holders ultrasonically cleaned to make sure everything inside is clean. Then make up some new plugs and good as new. But so much for finishing the top end this weekend. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01206.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 29, 2014, 05:37:27 pm
I bought a long drill so I could clean out the long oil galleries. Then I had the towers ultrasonically cleaned. I’m convinced there is nothing left in the holes. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01211.JPG)
Here’s the new plugs. They’re pretty small to make but they turned out nice. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01221.JPG)
And here’s the repaired towers. I even re-punched them for authenticity even though they went it hard enough that I know they won’t fall out. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01222.JPG)
If you pick them up and look close you can tell it’s not original but if you just look at them lying on the bench you would never know. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01253.JPG)
By the way, if you’ve read this entire thread you may remember that one of the towers had a crack in it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04870.JPG)
I had that repaired some time ago. After welding I ran a 20mm reamer through from the opposite end to make sure it lined up and it’s good as new. Now they’re ready to put on the engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01255.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on November 29, 2014, 06:05:18 pm
Hi Mark,
After reading your latest threads I am so impressed by your attention to detail. You really take your restorations to the highest level. Your work is making me re-think my restoration and consider pulling everything apart for a re-do. This is unlikely to happen now, but I will be better prepared for the next time I restore my sandcast.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: patriotcommercial on November 30, 2014, 12:55:48 am
Mark is a very skilled. I enjoy his work. Wish he would post more often, but happy with what he does post.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 30, 2014, 10:41:12 am
Joe, you probably didn't need to do half the stuff I did. In many cases, because I wanted to use the original parts, I had no choice. ::)
I wish I could post more often too. :D If I had more time and didn't run into issues like this with the cam towers, things would certainly go faster.
The support from you guys inspires me to keep at it. Thanks for the kind words.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 13, 2014, 06:23:08 pm
I wanted to get the cam and rockers in today and made good progress. I took a shot of the head for proof that I had all pins, o-rings and plugs in place before proceeding. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01260.JPG)
Same for the cam position….. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01285.JPG)
….and crank position just in case I want to check later that I did it right. The original advancer is in pretty rough shape so I temporarily used another one for now just to get it together. More on the advancer later. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01289.JPG)
Fortunately the original R1 cam was good enough to use. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01297.JPG)
I initially had a little trouble with the new cam chain (not much extra slack) but it's all done including the tappets meticulously adjusted. It sure is nice to adjust them when they’re in the open. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01299.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on December 14, 2014, 05:00:48 am
Nice work mark, photo's are great reference for yourself and good for us to admire your work pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on December 14, 2014, 07:46:44 am
I admire your attention to detail and all the quality pictures. Your workmanship quality is amazing! DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 14, 2014, 10:33:32 am
Markb, The Restoration of very high level !! Gerard
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on December 14, 2014, 11:34:11 am
Nice work Mark. We have been waiting to see this engine come together. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 14, 2014, 11:35:06 am
Thanks guys.
Here’s a follow up on the puller I made for the cam chain tensioner. I was looking on the Yamiya site and stumbled across this. They have one although it is different than mine. It is another way to do it. Unfortunately they can only sell it in Japan (why is that?). I thought it was interesting that someone else had already done it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Puller.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 14, 2014, 11:55:05 am
Mark, A small detail which saddens me a little on such a restoration... :o :'( Why to have put the horrible green gaskets of recent manufacturing while we can easily find and buy any first gaskets of origin corresponding to Sandcast which were of black color? Just an observation... Gerard
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 14, 2014, 12:13:27 pm
I tried to order the tool on their site and the order is not blocked when I confirm the delivery for France??
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 14, 2014, 01:28:05 pm
:o Gerard, excellent point. I wish you would have brought it up sooner. Seriously it never dawned on me. I can't believe I didn't think about. ??? I agree they should be black. Believe it or not I'm almost considering changing them.
Interesting about the Yamiya order. I just checked again and it's listed as Japan only but maybe they will ship anyway. There was something I would have liked to order a while back but I didn't try because it was listed as Japan only. Next time I will try.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 14, 2014, 01:28:58 pm
Below are pictures of spark advancers that I have taken out of my sandcast engines. The left one is from E100. The right one is like I have from three later sandcasts. Note that the E100 one has slots and that the tabs are centered and the weights are heavier than the one on the right. I had read that the early sandcast advancer was from a 450 and had slots. I don’t think I’m going to be able to save the E100 one so I checked on ebay and found some early 450 ones with slots but the tabs are off center and the weights are lighter. I also learned that K3-K4 advancers have the heavier weights with the centered tabs like E100. It almost seems like E100 is some kind of hybrid assembly. What I’m trying to find out is if what I have on E100 is correct. Does anyone have pictures of the early advancers that they could share?
By the way I had a slight panic attack thinking that the timing marks might be different between the two advancers and that my cam sprocket timing might be wrong but I checked and they’re both the same. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01300.JPG)
is this slotted advance unique to low vins..... ? appears to be......... ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 14, 2014, 04:33:35 pm
Maybe, but the strange thing is the research I've done doesn't show the centered tabs and heavier weights until the K3's. Anyone have a low (lower) engine number with pics of the advancer?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 14, 2014, 06:36:17 pm
Markb, I have a severe doubt that your Spark Advance is the one of origin for your E-100 and I think that it was changed because I have it a which looks like curiously has your among whom here is photos it is K3 1972 >> F2 1978...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 15, 2014, 10:56:42 am
I'm pretty close to deciding the same thing. I'm going to try to clean mine up so that I can read the markings. If it has TEC on it (I read somewhere that they started making them for the K3's and later) I think for sure it is a later unit. Also if there is not a 450 stamped on it then it would most likely be a later unit. Some of the 450 ones that I saw had 450 stamped on them. That would be fine then I wouldn't have to worry about saving it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on December 15, 2014, 04:32:05 pm
Mark,
Sorry, I have not had time to check and post until now. But I think the E100 advancer IS ORIGINAL. Why you ask? Because it appears identical (except for the oxidation) to my V33 E69!!!
I will check some of my other low VINs and post as soon as I have time. Probably be after the Holidays.
Keith
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Erling on December 17, 2014, 04:46:44 am
Spark advancer. Got in the day a workshop manual together with my CB750. On page 84 a picture to illustrate what is an advancer. Looks quite different to the two. But next picture where it is in position on motor the advancer looks like the one to the right! Erling.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 18, 2014, 09:11:17 pm
I soaked the advancer in Safest Rust Remover and I was able to clean it up enough to read the markings. Besides the timing marks there is a TEC logo on one side… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01341.JPG)
….and a 300 with an arrow on the other side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01343.JPG)
So it’s definitely not a 450 advancer. I looked in parts manuals and this shape with the slots shows up in the 1975 and later K and F models. I also looked in early parts manuals and shop manuals and they have the same shape as my later sandcast ones. Keith, I don’t doubt that yours has this same shape but I don’t think mine is original. Can you take a picture of yours that shows the markings?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on December 18, 2014, 10:46:39 pm
Mark, I believe you are correct and I was wrong with my first post. I did some further research and found the early spark advancers, -005, were Hitachi with no slots. An early, 7-69, Parts Catalog calls for the -005 and all Hitachi parts on the points plate. The -154 is a TEC with the slots. Not sure when it changed. Lucky me, I have a NOS, -005 that's now destined for E69 unless I learn something different. Keith
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 19, 2014, 08:49:38 am
Keith, Thanks for the confirmation. Does your -005 look like the advancer on the right in my pictures in post #500? Thanks, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on December 19, 2014, 09:37:06 am
Yes Sir, it does. I will try to post some pics and additional info later today.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 21, 2014, 02:37:02 pm
I’m working on getting my engine covers ready to assemble. I decided to tackle the hardest part – paint the black on the alternator cover logo. I’ve got two polished and clear coated so I am going to do them both. First step – mask them. I don’t worry about getting right on the edge but the closer you get the less paint you have to remove. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01366.JPG)
Next step painting. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01367.JPG)
Last step – remove the masking and the excess paint. I used to use a different clear coat that wasn’t affected by acetone. This clear is so my plan was to use alcohol to wipe the paint off. I did a test on piece of aluminum that I had sprayed with my covers, wiped right off. So I had a little panic attack when I did it for real. I must have let it dry a bit too long but I finally got it off. Whew! It’s kinda fun to see two smooth logo, thin-lipped alternator covers side-by-side. :D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01369.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Prospect on December 23, 2014, 02:25:06 pm
Came out rally nice. Those thin lip alternator covers are extremely hard to find. I've never seen one for sale. Nice to have two!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 29, 2014, 10:07:13 am
I know, I know, you guys are going to think I’m nuts. I have been striving to restore this engine as accurately as possible. After having it pointed out to me that the original engines didn’t have green gaskets, I decided to correct it. :o It was a bit of a challenge finding original black gaskets but I found them. Here is the engine with the new cylinder base gasket installed. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01373.JPG)
While I was at it I changed out the 6mm head screws. When I tore the engine down four of them were a hex head but only one was the special cross hex head that’s called out in the parts manual. It was mixed in with the four that are under the cam towers. I initially decided to put it back together the same way. Then I remembered that a previous rebuild I needed to by one and could not get the cross hex head so the hex head version is probably a later part. This engine had definitely been apart and not put together completely right. For example, it had six 6mm studs on the head instead of four. So I think there is a good chance that the special cross heads were replaced. The special screw on the back side of the head is also a distinction listed on this site that goes up to E1106 so now that’s what I put there. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01374.JPG)
I looked through all my fasteners and the screws that I have from other sandcast engines are the special cross head screws. So now the other four are the specials too. I’m pretty convinced that this is correct. It doesn’t matter now. It’s not coming apart again. ;) By the way, the puck hole isn’t dirty like it looks in the picture. Must be something with the flash or lighting. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01378.JPG)
Altogether it took me a little over 4 hours, not including letting it sit overnight and retorqueing the head, and including adjusting the tappets. It sure makes a difference when it comes apart easy and everything is clean. I hate to say it but it was kinda fun. I’m glad I did it. If any of you see something else that you don’t think is correct let me know.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 04, 2015, 11:43:32 am
Making some progress. Got the oil pump installed. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01381.JPG)
Here’s my early oil pan ready to install. No green gaskets here. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01382.JPG)
Unpainted oil pan in place. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01383.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 04, 2015, 03:37:32 pm
Ready to put on the valve cover. I found a couple of different gaskets. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01387.JPG)
I’m not sure why but the one on the right has extra material on the rear, side corners. I believe the one on left is the correct one so that’s what I’m using. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01388.JPG)
Here’s a shot of the inside of the early waffle valve cover. It’s too bad that one of the most signature features of the real early engines has to be covered up. :( (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01389.JPG)
Here’s something that’s giving me a headache. Notice the difference in the original screws and newer replacements. The originals have an average of 15mm of thread for almost any length screw. The new ones are threaded all the way. I’ve been trying so hard to use all correct screws and so far with screws from several engines I’ve come up with enough. I think I might come up short though. I might have to temporarily use some new ones and change them out as I find them. I don’t even know why I think about these things. ::) Has anyone replaced theirs with new (or worse yet, stainless :o) and have some decent originals they could sell? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01392.JPG)
So here’s the valve cover and breather cover in place. Little by little. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01394.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 04, 2015, 04:29:15 pm
On to the clutch cover. I’m not sure but I think the 10-hole gasket will work. I was able to find a black 9-hole version. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01386.JPG)
Cover in place. I’m really happy I went with the black gaskets. The green gasket would have been very visible here. I’m sure I would not have liked it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01408.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 04, 2015, 04:40:18 pm
Next, alternator cover. I was lucky enough to pick up a NOS coil. Just to make sure I put the ohmmeter on it and measured 7 ohms – close enough to the factory spec. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01380.JPG)
Also got a NOS stator. It checked out too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01401.JPG)
Ready to put it together with my short-threaded screws. ;) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01402.JPG)
Ready to mount on the engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01403.JPG)
Things were going good and then came to a grinding halt. I need to get the starter motor in so I can mount the alternator cover. I had also picked up a NOS starter motor years ago. I decided I should test it too before I put it in just to make sure it was OK. Should be a simple test. Battery, jumper cables, negative terminal to the case, positive to the cable for a couple of seconds. Nothing happened. Is there a reason this shouldn’t work? I’ve got a couple motors stored away. I guess I’ll have to dig them out. I was on a roll and I really thought I would be pretty close to getting the major engine parts together this weekend. Oh well. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01405.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 05, 2015, 08:41:15 am
I dug out the best of my other starters and tried the same test and it worked. Then I compared the two and found that what I thought was an early NOS starter isn’t even the same, as you can see in the photo. :o The one on the left is the “NOS” one. Probably for a later diecast. I bought it several years ago and supposedly it was an early one and it came in a Honda box with the correct part number. I never really looked that close at it, just put in on the shelf waiting to install. Looking closer at it now I think maybe it might have been used or at least installed. ??? I think I got scammed. I’m glad I tested it or I would have installed an incorrect part and it would have sucked to have to replace it later. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01409.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on January 05, 2015, 10:29:40 am
Mark, Just a little advice... Open the starter and check the state of wear of the brush (coal) and take advantage also to see the state of the collector on the rotor and clean... On my coal, wear was more than 70% ...... Careful to respect order and the meaning of the white washer and shim washers... A photo before removing, is that there are better! In the event that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Genuine-Honda-Starter-Motor-Rebuild-Kit-68-78-CB450-CB500-CB550-CB750-H14-/271729708545?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f445a4e01&vxp=mtr#ht_3121wt_662 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Genuine-Honda-Starter-Motor-Rebuild-Kit-68-78-CB450-CB500-CB550-CB750-H14-/271729708545?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f445a4e01&vxp=mtr#ht_3121wt_662)
Gerard
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 05, 2015, 01:39:35 pm
Gerard, Great advice. I'll plan on doing that. Thanks for the link too. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 18, 2015, 06:44:23 pm
I got my rebuild kit and I’m ready to tear into the starter. The first thing I noticed is there are marks that show where the end caps line up. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01420.JPG)
There was quite a bit of carbon dust in it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01444.JPG)
I cleaned up everything real good and here’s the new springs and brushes installed. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01446.JPG)
I tested it and it ran fine. Here‘s the starter in the engine. By the way I did tear apart the “NOS” starter. It looked like brand new inside. The reason it wouldn’t run is the armature is stuck. I tried tapping it with a hammer and it wouldn’t come out. I didn’t hit it real hard. I’ll look closer at it later. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01447.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 19, 2015, 09:25:08 am
I ran into another snag. I have a NOS breaker assembly that I installed. I got the point gap adjusted and went to set the timing and found that the plate fit very tightly into the mounting on the case. Even with the three screws out I couldn’t turn the plate. So I took all the parts from the NOS plate and mounted them on a decent used plate. Fits perfect and I can rotate it easily. In the process I found that there are differences in the plates. The early version is on the left. The main difference is in the lubricating pad mount. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01449.JPG)
I reset the gaps and then worked on setting the timing. The 1-4 adjustment is just about to the end of the slots. The 2-3 adjustment is to the end of the slots and just to the position where the points are opening and in the direction it should go relative to how much 1-4 is off. Has anyone seen this before? It just seems odd to me that I would be right at the limits. I compared the parts to make sure the ones I swapped were the same. Something tells me it might have something to do with the spark advancer. I tore everything apart and checked the spark advancer and everything seems OK. Put it back together and the same thing. I’m just not feeling good about it. Could it be the cam on the spark advancer is worn. Any thoughts? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01450.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on January 19, 2015, 02:39:51 pm
In some way you should be able to balance it a little with readjusting the breakers gap with the plate(s) in another position. Am I thinking wrong in that way?
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on January 19, 2015, 08:43:05 pm
I sure you did, but double checking, did you indicate the spark advancer to run true?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 20, 2015, 09:50:12 am
I sure you did, but double checking, did you indicate the spark advancer to run true?
Actually I didn't. Would it not run true because of a bent shaft? The one I put in looked good but I will put an indicator on it. I'm definitely going to take another look at it. I'll try a different spark advancer and readjust the point gap too. Like I said, I'm just not feeling good about it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on January 21, 2015, 11:58:11 pm
Yes, that shaft doesn't have to be tweaked very much to cause similar issues. One can actually tweak it during installation even if it was straight to begin with. Of course, once you get it zeroed, NEVER turn the engine with that big nut that just sticks out there begging to be used to turn the engine. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 22, 2015, 08:41:23 am
Of course, once you get it zeroed, NEVER turn the engine with that big nut that just sticks out there begging to be used to turn the engine. ;)
Makes sense but does that mean that if you're doing a normal tuneup that you should remove the alternator cover and use the rotor bolt to turn the engine over?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on January 22, 2015, 11:07:17 am
.....Because this nut is still planned for it? What is the reason?? ???
Yes, pretty sure that was Honda's plan and I still do it but only with the plugs out. You have to make sure you are applying rotational torque ONLY and NO down or side pressure on that shaft. Most 23mm wrenches are quite long and it is very easy to "tweak" the advancer shaft on a strong motor with good compression. This was a tip we got from a Honda Service Rep back in the day when the bent shafts were first discovered to be causing timing problems. I am not positive, but I seem to recall a Service Bulletin regarding same. Honda changed that 6mm shaft with a thin nut to a 8mm flanged head bolt on the DOHC's which are electronic ignition and it holds the starter clutch on so maybe not a good comparison.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on January 22, 2015, 12:27:21 pm
It is true that when known..This may seem obvious...!! It is good know to avoid twisting the stem!! Thanks, ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 22, 2015, 01:20:57 pm
Yes, pretty sure that was Honda's plan and I still do it but only with the plugs out. You have to make sure you are applying rotational torque ONLY and NO down or side pressure on that shaft.
Excellent point on having the spark plugs out. Mine are out. And I agree on using care while rotating. After indicating the shaft (and straightening if required) I will try again. Thanks.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 25, 2015, 06:40:52 pm
I tackled my timing issue again. A bent shaft seems the most logical so I rigged a setup to check it. I first mounted the magnetic base to my cart but the engine supports aren’t very rigid so whenever I turned on the rotor bolt the indicator would wiggle. I found a 7/16” bolt that went in tight on the right, upper engine mount hole. Then I mounted the magnetic V-base on the bolt. It doesn’t look very solid but I checked it buy pushing on the indicator from both sides and it always returned to the same spot. So I found there was .025” run out. I was able to straighten it to less than .001”. I figured that had to be the problem. I put everything back together, set the point gap and when I tried to set the timing it was worse! :o I hadn’t put the nut on the spark advancer yet and found it had a lot of play on the shaft. I put the nut on and tried again and still the same. Now I was afraid I might have bent the shaft when I tightened the nut so I took it all apart and it still indicated less than .001”. I put it all back together – still the same thing. ??? In the course of the next 5 hours I swapped sparked advancers, points, point plates and still couldn’t get there. Finally by pushing the points and the points plate to one side of the clearance and reducing the point gap down to .012” I was able to get the points to break right at the F marks. But I am still bottomed out in the slots for the timing adjustment. It just doesn’t seem right but I don’t know what else to do. It’s not like I haven’t done this before but I never had this issue. Any ideas? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01456.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 26, 2015, 10:34:09 am
After doing some searching on the SOHC4 site I found plenty of info related to what I am seeing. Maybe I'm being too picky. Like I said I would just feel better if I wasn't bottomed out in the slots. Anyone know how many degrees between the T and F marks?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on January 26, 2015, 10:55:03 am
I don't Mark, but I was just about to post a question. Did you happen to take a pic of the ignition side before you removed the breaker plate? I went through and didn't see one posted but I know you photograph everything. Would be interesting to see the indexing before disassembly.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 26, 2015, 03:17:57 pm
After doing some searching on the SOHC4 site I found plenty of info related to what I am seeing. Maybe I'm being too picky. Like I said I would just feel better if I wasn't bottomed out in the slots. Anyone know how many degrees between the T and F marks?
Mark, i could give an answer based on my experience running into the same issue, but i'm going to ask the guys at the shop i worked at their experience, between the 3 of them, they have 130 years of experience. i do know, working at the shop, when we had a unit that timing was set to the end of the slots, that's where the timing was set, but they may have other thoughts in addition. I will see one of them later this week and ask. does the service book give degrees between "T" and "F" marks ? Would be easy enough to fit a degree wheel and measure the distance.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 26, 2015, 07:55:34 pm
I don't Mark, but I was just about to post a question. Did you happen to take a pic of the ignition side before you removed the breaker plate? I went through and didn't see one posted but I know you photograph everything. Would be interesting to see the indexing before disassembly.
I didn’t take a shot of the plate on the engine but here is what it looked like. You can see where the washers were. Definitely not at the end of the slots. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01303.JPG)
Mark, i could give an answer based on my experience running into the same issue, but i'm going to ask the guys at the shop i worked at their experience, between the 3 of them, they have 130 years of experience. i do know, working at the shop, when we had a unit that timing was set to the end of the slots, that's where the timing was set, but they may have other thoughts in addition. I will see one of them later this week and ask. does the service book give degrees between "T" and "F" marks ? Would be easy enough to fit a degree wheel and measure the distance.
Any suggestions are welcome. I didn't see anything in the service manual about the degrees. The only reason I was wondering was so I could estimate how close the timing was set. What would be a reasonable tolerance, +/- 1 degree?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 27, 2015, 08:57:31 am
Thanks for the info. The reason the two advancers in your top photo are different is that the one on the right is assembled incorrectly. The cam is 180 degrees off. The mark on the edge of the cam should line up with the Hitachi logo.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on January 27, 2015, 12:34:59 pm
Hi Mark, I noticed that you tried with differents points and plates so you should be able to exclude that. Still one longshot though, if the little cam follower on the breaker arm is shorter than it should be, it will lift the breaker arm later and that would affect the position of the the plate. Vice versa if the breaker arm are longer than it should be. A longshot but I guess you consider everything at this moment.
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 27, 2015, 01:55:44 pm
A longshot but I guess you consider everything at this moment.
You got that right. I did pick up a new set of points today. I had the set off the NOS assembly which was a different plate (so who knows if they're right even though they look identical) and tried a set of used points. I'll give the new ones a try. I wish I could do it before the weekend but it doesn't look that's going to happen.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 01, 2015, 03:35:34 pm
I'm taking a little break from the points and timing. The new oil pressure wire that I bought had a ring terminal instead of the old style spade terminal. I wanted to change it and in the process I found an excellent resource for parts for repairing wire harnesses. Check out this thread: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=1423.msg10039#msg10039 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=1423.msg10039#msg10039)
So I was able to change to the correct terminal and it looks great especially with the NOS oil pressure sensor. I also used the correct pan head screw instead of the hex head. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01461.JPG)
Now I can put the starter motor cover on. I used the acorn head screws from Yamiya just for fun. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01466.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 01, 2015, 04:58:37 pm
OK, back to the ignition. I decided to check the run out on the spark advancer shaft one more time. I wasn’t real happy with my indicator mount so I sawed out a ¼” steel plate to mount to the points cover holes. Nice and rigid now. Shaft indicated true so on to the next step. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01458.JPG)
I broke the rules when it comes to diagnosing a problem. You should only change one thing at a time to see if there is a change. But I went ahead and put in a different spark advancer and new points. I also put a .003” shim on the O.D. of the plate at each of the three locating ridges to take out the play and center the plate. I saw where some guys would jam it all one way but it made more sense to me to center it. Since I had my indicator setup I found a slick way to set the points. The picture is a little hard to see but I put the indicator on the pivoting half of the points. Then I put a .015” thick feeler between the points and adjusted the points until I saw the needle move .001”. Then as I snugged it down if I saw the needle move I would tweak the adjustment until I got the screw tight. I pulled the feeler out and when I put it back in it deflected .001” so my gap is exactly .014”. Other side same thing. It was super easy. Then I did the timing. I was concerned about the springs being tight enough to keep the spark advancer from rotating but realized that as long as you only turn the crank clockwise the friction of the lubricating felt and the points followers will keep the spark advancer in the right position. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01460.JPG)
As you can see the plates are rotated near the end of the slots as before but there is a good 1/16” before they would bottom out. At least there is a little room. And the points and timing are dead on. Bottom line – I’m calling it good. :) It still puzzles me a bit as to why it’s near the end of travel but I’m confidant it’s OK. I probably shouldn’t have been concerned about it. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01465.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 01, 2015, 05:44:06 pm
By the way, I had the rotor cover off and used the rotor bolt to turn the crank. Then I didn’t have to worry about bending the spark advancer shaft. So now I can put on the left side covers. Here is the transmission cover on the inside. This is the one that came off and should be correct. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01463.JPG)
Here is the sprocket cover. I believe it to be correct too although it was missing when I got the bike. If someone thinks otherwise please let me know. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01464.JPG)
Now it’s looking like something got done. But I have to say not without a struggle…again. When I went to put the sprocket cover on it wouldn’t fit. I had to sand about .020” off the mounting pads on the inside to get it to fit between the cases and the transmission cover. Maybe it is not correct? ??? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01467.JPG)
Just for fun I put the oil filter housing on just to see how it looked. This is my fake one (saving the real one for good) but I like it. ;) I realize I’ll have to take it off anyway to put the engine in the frame. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01468.JPG)
I have the cam chain tensioner and except for the points cover and clutch adjustment cover, that’s about it on the engine. I could really put the engine in any time now. I need to assemble the rear brake shaft and the center stand then I just might do that. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01470.JPG)
Actually I should do some other prep. I had the 19 liter tank painted a long time ago and in fact I had two sets of red but I don’t have them anymore. Of the two sets, I had one set painted gold for my K0 and the other set went with 5383. So I need to get parts out for painting. The other thing I need to do is get all my controls and master cylinders out for black anodizing. I have a little cleaning and polishing to do first. I don’t want to be waiting for that stuff when I’m ready for it. After that it should go pretty good. All of the black paint, zinc and chrome are done although I’m sure there will be something to hang me up. ::)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on February 02, 2015, 06:07:23 am
Content for you until ignition problems are almost solved.. Here is a first CORD ASSY, the endpoint is in grey for the first finish if this can help you in the restoration.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 02, 2015, 06:15:01 pm
Thanks Gerard. That looks like it would be easy to reproduce.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on February 06, 2015, 10:02:01 pm
Yes, the early bikes had grey ends
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 07, 2015, 09:32:40 am
Thanks KP. I have already decided I'm going to make a correct wire. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Marcello Tha on February 08, 2015, 09:21:30 pm
The transmission cover and sprocket cover are 100% correct.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 16, 2015, 10:47:25 am
Thanks Marcello.
I’m looking ahead at some of the frame stuff. I got the tins sent out for painting (except for the tank which is done). Fortunately I had a headlight bucket painted by the same guy that matches the tank. I sent it along. I’m also working on getting my handlebar controls ready for black anodizing.
In the meantime I’ve been looking at options for the wire harness. As most of you probably know the correct harness would be the NLA 32100-300-040 and decent used ones are very rare. I had been thinking I would make a facsimile from a -050 by removing the extra wires and replacing the part number tag. I have a couple of new -050’s but they do look quite a bit different from the -040’s and I have a couple used -050’s but they are in pretty rough shape. I also have two -040’s: one not so good but the other one is in really good condition considering its age. Even the sleeve to the headlight bucket is flexible and not cracked. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01471.JPG)
So now I’m leaning towards using this harness. Here’s a close up of the tag. I wonder if I just used a little soap and water if it would clean up without taking off the printing. The rest of it should clean up nicely except for the insulators. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01472.JPG)
That’s my hesitation to use it is because most of the insulators are yellowed, some worse than others. Any tricks for removing the yellowing? I seem to recall someone using an ultrasonic cleaner for wiring harnesses. I’m not sure I would put the whole harness in it but it shouldn’t hurt the terminals. I just don’t know if it would remove the yellowing. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01482.JPG)
I bought some terminals and insulators thinking I might replace some of them but it looks like some of the insulators are heat sealed on the wire. I’m not sure how I would duplicate that. Like I said, I’m thinking of using this harness thinking that a decent correct one will be better then a new fake one. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01479.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 16, 2015, 11:51:02 am
A few years back, if i remember correctly, Conrad, i believe, "wld41", posted pics of crusty harness he put in ultrasonic. the positive results were quite surprising. might be worth a try....
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 16, 2015, 01:51:10 pm
Mark I remember a post where a member replaced the insulators on his harness. He sealed them to the harness by using one of his wife's or daughters old hair flat irons I believe it was. Through trial and error he carved the shape he needed into the flat iron heating pads to make the correct looking crimp. (Melt) I'll keep looking for the post.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on February 16, 2015, 02:00:00 pm
It was ashimotok0 and he did make it from his daughters hair iron.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 16, 2015, 02:09:06 pm
Steve, yes now I remember, it was Conrad. Wayne, that sounds feasible. I'll track it down. I should be able to machine something up. More to think about ::) You guys are the best. Thanks for the feedback! ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on February 17, 2015, 03:46:38 am
Yes it was me and I did make the fusing tool from a pair of my daughter's old hair straighteners. The problem was finding the unplasticized plastic clear sleeve. I did find some at a works Chrismas party used for inflating those squeeky ballon thingy's. I went round after the meal collecting everyones unused ones. They are probably unplasticised for safety reasons.
I need to revisit this because I fell ill after that original post and chickened out and used the Vintage Connections sleeves (see attached) but you have rekindled my enthusiasm Mark for my CB350K1 / Cb250K0 wiring loom restorations.
I also used the tinning solution for re-tinning the old connectors and plating the bare brass ones from VC, the type of solution you use for making prototype printed circuit boards (PCB's).
Attached is my harness from my 750 etc that I refurbished using the above materials, way back . I even managed to replace/ resolder an individual diode in the rectifier pack. This was from a '69 UK bike that had seen the ravages of many of our grimy winters and was in a shocking state, to start with. All of the parts were re-plated at home.
Mark , I am in default as I need to send you various sizes of the woven glass/ silicone impregnated sleeving for points / alternator sub-harness etc but I have misplaced a large reel of the alternator stuff. I need to order some today anyway for my job. can anyone confirm the ID is 10mm please?
Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 17, 2015, 09:40:00 am
You guys have some great ideas. I appreciate the feedback and it occurred to me that we should have a thread dedicated to just wire harnesses. I've started one here: http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?board=12.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?board=12.0) Please contribute your ideas. I'm sure I'm not the only one facing these challenges. Thanks, Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 01, 2015, 04:37:11 pm
Restoring the harness is going to be a big project. Closer inspection shows it’s not as good as I thought. I’m still researching and looking for sources. I’m considering using the -050 for now to keep the ball rolling. I’ve been working on getting parts ready for black anodizing too. Here’s what I got ready to go. Enough for #97 and 2 more projects. I figured I might as well make it worth my while. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01508.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on March 01, 2015, 09:29:13 pm
Will be interested to watch this anodizing prep, Mark.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 07, 2015, 12:57:10 pm
I’m thinking of getting the engine in the frame this weekend but I want to finish one more thing. Years ago I scrounged a bunch of the correct, early rubber inserts that go between the fins on the head and cylinders. Later or replacements ones are black. It will be the finishing touch on the engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01527.JPG)
I have good pictures showing the inserts in the cylinders but nothing showing the head. The parts list shows 12 inserts on the head. I have four sandcast heads and they all have only 8 total, 4 in front and 4 in back. Here’s a pic of one of them showing the inserts in the front. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01529.JPG)
Here’s a pic of the back. There is no indication whatsoever that there were any more than four on each side. None of the dirt on the fins has been disturbed to indicate that there were any others. All four heads are the same. Can anyone confirm that there is only eight and that these are the correct locations? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01530.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on March 07, 2015, 01:45:18 pm
Mark, I have three spare Sandcast cylinder heads not on bikes. They are all in the same location as your pictures with only 8 present as shown. DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on March 07, 2015, 01:52:09 pm
Mark, I went out to the shop to look at my four assembled Sandy's and can only see eight on those heads as well but it's not easy to see all the inserts on an assembled bike. Keep in mind that my lowest VIN engine is at 1100, so may not be much help with a two/three digit VIN like 97. Best, Duane
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on March 07, 2015, 02:23:01 pm
Mark, Off subject, but do you have a source for these rubber inserts? Thanks for any help, DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 07, 2015, 02:28:22 pm
Not sure any more. I bought these maybe three or four years ago and got them from several sources. I called many shops (dozens maybe) and asked them to look to make sure they weren't black. The worst part is they cost me between $3 to $4 each. :o If they had the right ones I took all they had. There may be more out there but they have to be rare.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Ferenz62 on March 09, 2015, 04:30:30 am
Hi there,
Tom from Germany. That is where you still can get them. http://shop.honda4.nl/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=901_148_219_496&products_id=1037 (http://shop.honda4.nl/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=901_148_219_496&products_id=1037) Very best succes in your fine work...
Four4ever, Tom
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 09, 2015, 08:10:28 am
check out this post on the SOHC4 site too. Member FrankenFrankenStuff makes them too. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=79183.msg1658051#msg1658051 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=79183.msg1658051#msg1658051)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 09, 2015, 08:45:10 am
I decided that my other heads were correct so I installed my inserts that way. Here’s a shot of the back. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01531.JPG)
Here’s a shot of the front. I like it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01534.JPG)
Here’s the engine pretty much done. I’ve decided I’m just going to put in on a rotating pedestal to display it in my living room with colored lights shining on it. ;D ;) Just kidding of course but the CB750 engine is sure a work of art. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01541.JPG)
Here’s another angle. There are a couple of minor things to do – cam chain tensioner, polish the oil gallery plug, etc. – but I can do that after the engine is in the frame. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01545.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on March 09, 2015, 11:39:00 am
Mark, it's very nice work... Me too I like it well... ( And more with his beautiful black Gaskets!! ;) ) The CB750 engine is superb and the entire bike has an aesthetic that I would say perfect in the equilibrium of the masses... You couldn't ask for better at the time and more even now! ::) ::) ::) Is that painting the cylinders and the head is the same as that used for the engine block? Are you painting the tensioner? Because I think that it was not painted in the original...??? What is the procedure to directly display the images life-size on the site? ??? Gerard
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 09, 2015, 03:03:42 pm
Gerard,
I paint the head and cylinders the same color as the cases.
I painted the tensioner housing a darker shade, more of a gray. I am certain mine was painted. Check out this thread for more info. http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=657.msg9569#msg9569 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=657.msg9569#msg9569)
I'm not sure I can explain the image procedure. This link should help. http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=228.0 (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=228.0)
Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 09, 2015, 04:29:44 pm
I have a C-hook that I sometimes use to install the engine but I decided to lay the engine on its side and lower the frame onto it. I‘ll have to get these blankets home and get the bed made before my wife notices they’re missing. ::) ;) :D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01547.JPG)
I use pipe insulating foam tubes to protect the frame during installation. I should have taken pictures but I used a fork truck to pick up the frame and position it over the engine. The engine was on a scissors table so I just gradually lifted the engine and it went in really nice. The only problem I had was getting the rear, lower mount to go between the frame mounts. There must have been just enough paint to make it really snug. I finally wrestled it to the point where I used increasingly bigger screwdrivers in the mounting holes to coax it into alignment. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01548.JPG)
There it is in the frame. That’s the first time they’ve been together in a little over 4 years. :'( It brought a tear to my eye. I’ve got the two lower bolts in so it’s not going anywhere. I still need to strap it down and install the motor mount brackets after I dig them out of storage. They’re all painted and ready to go. I feel good. This is a major milestone. :) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01549.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on March 09, 2015, 08:16:43 pm
Looks beautiful, Mark. It reminds me of my restoration. I like the bike with just the frame and engine only. It looks like a piece of art to me.
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on March 10, 2015, 05:02:15 am
Looks awesome Mark! I have learned many new techniques and a wealth of information from your posts over the last few years. Can't wait to see it continue to progress. DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on March 10, 2015, 06:27:14 am
Cool...This time it's the icing on the cake!! The Honda factory used the same technique to put the engine in the frame as it is the most precise. When one remembers the state of the bike from the beginning and now there really shed a small tear of happiness...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on March 10, 2015, 10:46:53 am
Wow! That is just gorgeous Mark. I can't believe that's the same bike from the beginning of this thread. Stunning!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 10, 2015, 06:47:50 pm
Thanks guys for all your kind words and helpful comments.
Wow! That is just gorgeous Mark. I can't believe that's the same bike from the beginning of this thread. Stunning!
Do you mean this one? :o (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC04842.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on March 11, 2015, 10:37:57 am
Yep, and especially knowing what the inside of that gorgeous engine looked like before, and is actually going to run now! I can't wait see the rest come together. :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on March 11, 2015, 11:15:31 am
Yep, and especially knowing what the inside of that gorgeous engine looked like before, and is actually going to run now! I can't wait see the rest come together. :)
Mark should have plenty of time to get 97 finished. Winter lasts until July where he lives. ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 11, 2015, 06:34:16 pm
Mark should have plenty of time to get 97 finished. Winter lasts until July where he lives. ;D
Sad but almost true! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: nmbr12 on March 12, 2015, 03:53:26 am
beautiful,,,WOW...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 12, 2015, 07:09:12 pm
I got the engine mounts torqued down. I love those original “Big 8” hex head bolts. Here’s the right front bracket… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01550.JPG)
…and the rear bracket… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01551.JPG)
…and the left side front bolt. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01555.JPG)
I don’t mean to be too anal here but in this case I call them bolts instead of screws. An old mechanic, a long time ago, taught me that they’re called bolts when used with a nut and screws when they go into a tapped hole. Of course you guys all know that. ;) :D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on March 12, 2015, 08:36:54 pm
Love those stunning zinc large 8 bolt heads against that black paint, magnificent! DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on March 12, 2015, 09:58:26 pm
Mark, not to tell you what to do on your stunningly gorgeous scintillating restoration.... :)
a very dear friend who was an old timer machinist, tool/die maker, Harley dealer from the late 20's through the 50's and and restorer from the mid 60's through the early 90's.... He could tell his restorations (inside engine and outside on chassis) from anyone else's by: All bolt head markings were upright or one direction. All flats of hex bolts were in line or vertical. all slots of screw heads were in line. He had boxes and boxes of screws, he would hand select each screw so the flats and the slots would line up when tightened in their hole.
fwiw, he called every threaded fastener a screw. He differentiated screw types by head type... "hex head," "button head," Fillister head," "round head," "flat head," "oval head," so forth and so on.
i like your differentiation between a screw and a bolt. :) it makes sense !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Wayne on March 12, 2015, 11:00:05 pm
Uh oh, here comes some bolt indexing on 97! ;) Yes, they are nuts and bolts. A screw is what goes into the covers. ;) My 2 cents on that topic.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on March 13, 2015, 02:56:39 am
Well I guess Steve just made our lives miserable, now we are all going to start performing bolt and screw alignments with all our anal tendencies ;D. Have fun Mark, DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on March 13, 2015, 05:28:41 am
Excellent Mark, ;) Just a question... Have you tightened the engine up in the frame? So that it does not rely on him even.. It may seem insignificant, but it limits the vibrations that could be communicated to the frame.. Gerard
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on March 13, 2015, 05:48:19 am
So who of you are button heads and who are flat heads ;D. I know some may think I'm a Dick Head or even ahead. I do know I like a beer with a good head. U think I'll stop there :-*
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 13, 2015, 08:07:04 am
All bolt head markings were upright or one direction. All flats of hex bolts were in line or vertical. all slots of screw heads were in line. He had boxes and boxes of screws, he would hand select each screw so the flats and the slots would line up when tightened in their hole.
:o Yikes! Now there is an interesting challenge. I can see where it would be possible to line up the heads in some cases - where you can rotate the nuts to make the bolt heads line up. But looking at the right, rear bracket as one example, the bolts thread into nuts that are welded onto the bracket. Therefore when you install the bolts the heads will end up where they get tight. One could try different bolts to see which ones line up but I don't have boxes full of "Big 8" bolts to experiment with. That said let me think on it for a bit....
There, I've thought about it. Even I am not that anal. They will stay as they are. ;D
Have you tightened the engine up in the frame? So that it does not rely on him even.. It may seem insignificant, but it limits the vibrations that could be communicated to the frame.. Gerard
Not exactly sure what you mean. I have torqued all the bolts to the proper torque except for the rear, lower rod which will be tightened when the foot pegs are installed.
So who of you are button heads and who are flat heads ;D. I know some may think I'm a Dick Head or even ahead. I do know I like a beer with a good head. U think I'll stop there :-*
Good, I think you're head-ed in the right direction. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on March 13, 2015, 01:31:22 pm
Hi, Keep on being anal on this matter and please take more pictures. My SC came in boxes without any bolts and it is a lesson for me to see what kind of 8-bolt is used at every place.
Super nice thread!
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Erling on March 14, 2015, 08:21:09 am
About number 8 bolts, getting them upright could be done with different thickness washers? Or in a lathe nib enough off the underside bolt head. Went to look at my bolt heads. Apparently only 2 for the right front bracket have number 8 heads! Incidentally there is a 24mm hole in the middle of this bracket for my 1676! None of the long cross bolts have .8 on their heads. Any significance in dot on your long bolt is to the side versus underneath the 8? I'm working in wood and it has been seen all screws are turned to same direction. About tightening engine bolts. Long ago an australian came past here in town on a Norton Commando, complaining of vibrations in frame. We loosened all engine bolts and rode it up and down the street whereupon retighten, and he felt it was better. Erling.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on March 14, 2015, 08:47:45 am
You are serious guys with "8" perfectly aligned vertically? :o :o You believe that the guys of the Honda factory in 1969 have time to align the bolts and screws "8"? ??? It becomes a little crazy... I thought it was a joke at first... The authenticity to the contrary they are not aligned...
Long ago an australian came past here in town on a Norton Commando, complaining of vibrations in frame. We loosened all engine bolts and rode it up and down the street whereupon retighten, and he felt it was better. Erling. This is a certainty!! Gerard.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 14, 2015, 10:11:23 am
None of the long cross bolts have .8 on their heads. Any significance in dot on your long bolt is to the side versus underneath the 8?
I've never seen 8's on any of the long bolts. Not sure if there is any significance to the location of the dots. I just put back what came out.
The engine bolt re-tightening makes sense.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on March 14, 2015, 01:18:48 pm
The story ff my friend aligning screw and bolt heads is true.
Otherwise, i was just kidding Mark.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on March 14, 2015, 02:06:26 pm
Screws are as used in the side covers etc, bolts are hexagon head fasteners, generally. but just to confuse over here in the UK, bolts which are threaded all the way up to the head (as opposed to having an unthreaded section) are referred to as set-screws!
Stunning job Mark - a work of art indeed.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on March 14, 2015, 02:10:15 pm
Screws are as used in the side covers etc, bolts are hexagon head fasteners, generally. but just to confuse over here in the UK, bolts which are threaded all the way up to the head (as opposed to having an unthreaded section) are referred to as set-screws!
Stunning job Mark - a work of art indeed.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on March 15, 2015, 05:31:14 am
The story ff my friend aligning screw and bolt heads is true. Otherwise, i was just kidding Mark.
Steve, This may seem a little crazy, but good if it is real... Let's be crazy and I promise you that I will align my "8" Bolts on the two front motor mounts... ;) ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 15, 2015, 09:30:25 am
The story ff my friend aligning screw and bolt heads is true.
Otherwise, i was just kidding Mark.
I figured you were. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 15, 2015, 12:52:50 pm
I installed the exhaust spigots. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01571.JPG)
They look really nice. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01572.JPG)
Notice the radius on the angled sides? Nice distinction on very early spigots. The plates are thinner too – 5mm instead of 6mm. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01573.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 15, 2015, 03:03:39 pm
Next project, the steering stem. The races in the frame tube were pretty rough so I took them out before painting. The last time I installed them I had a hard time getting them to go in straight so I made this tool. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC03643.JPG)
Makes the job super easy. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01576.JPG)
Mission accomplished. Never even dropped a ball. The key is to have plenty of grease to hold the balls in place. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01577.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ashimotok0 on March 18, 2015, 03:47:00 am
Mark .. I am posting your glass/silicone impregnated sleeving, right angled terminals etc today .. sorry for delau. BTW I am resurrecting the hot fused covers again.. watch this space!
Ash
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 18, 2015, 12:29:41 pm
Thanks Ash. No problem.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 10, 2015, 06:01:32 pm
Between vacation and a couple of business trips I haven’t had much time to work on the bike. I’m starting to mount some parts on the frame. I got the center stand in and I decided to use the washer method of installing the spring. With someone holding the frame I used to be able to pull it on using a hook but not anymore. I clamped one of the loop ends in to a vice and then using a piece of tubing over the outside of the spring; I bend it back and forth and insert washers between the coils. It took me about a half hour to wrestle them in. It seems one falls out for every two you get in. The key is to try to bend the spring where you want to insert the washer. I use #10 springs and about 32 of them will increase the length by about .75”. Then you hook it onto the C plate and lift up on the center stand and the other end easily slips onto the hook. It might take a while but no straining, no chipped paint, no skinned knuckles. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01583.JPG)
There it is in place. Is there a “right” way to install it? There are four possible ways. As near as I can tell from the parts manual I think this is correct. Any opinions before I remove the washers. After that it ain’t getting changed. ;) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01586.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: CB750faces.com (Lecram) on April 11, 2015, 05:15:08 am
I used this spring hook. I had to wear a thick glove to protect my fingers. It's not a easy job though
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on April 11, 2015, 06:20:59 am
Your spring has the two short sides? On the Part list, there is a long side and a short and the short side is mounted to the top of the Crescent of inking? Early spring had both sides short? However Mark Remove me a doubt... Clearance of brake is not mounted upside?? Because there as it is mounted if you press the brake pedal tie-rod will go back and do the opposite effect...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 11, 2015, 09:35:39 am
Your spring has the two short sides? On the Part list, there is a long side and a short and the short side is mounted to the top of the Crescent of inking? Early spring had both sides short?
My spring has a long and short end. This shows in the picture of the spring laying on the bench. If you look close the short end is on the "C" plate and the long end is on the hook on the center stand.
However Mark Remove me a doubt... Clearance of brake is not mounted upside?? Because there as it is mounted if you press the brake pedal tie-rod will go back and do the opposite effect...
I see what you mean about the brake shaft. It might look like it is installed wrong but I have the brake rod zip tied up on the frame to keep it out of the way which made the arm drop down like you see it. You are very observant. I appreciate you guys paying such close attention. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01588.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on April 11, 2015, 10:30:20 am
There, I understand better with photography, I knew a bit there's something odd in the rod brake with the position of the stand... And it is true that this spring is really the devil getting has the hook without damaging the beautiful painting!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 05, 2015, 02:22:57 pm
Still busy but I have managed to whittle away at a few things: oil tank, swing arm, center stand, shocks…. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01613.JPG)
…chain guard, ignition switch, side stand and battery box. But of course not without issues. The worst one was dropping the battery box. I still don’t know how that happened. And of course it had to bounce, and I tried to break its fall with my foot and managed to kick it across the floor. I think it was chipped on all 8 corners. ??? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01614.JPG)
But a trip back to the painter and it’s as good as new. ;) You can’t see it in this picture but I still need to find a decent, correct starter relay. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01615.JPG)
This is where it’s fun to make sure all the hex heads are correct. No 8 on the shock, regular 8 on the chain guard… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01616.JPG)
….offset 8 on the chain adjuster.stopper. :D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01617.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on May 05, 2015, 02:38:02 pm
Noticed a couple of things I would like to query... Are the rear shock lower mount bolts chrome or BZP finish - I'm not sure from the pictures, and have only previously encountered chrome finish here? Washers under the offset "8" bolts in the ends of the swing arm? None of the (believed to be) original bikes I've come accross had washers fitted here. Then again, I've never had such an early VIN.
Good to see those offset "8" bolts. #302 and #1120 also had these in the mainstand pivot clamps, and the ignition switch bracket.
Looking really great; its going to be one of the best.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 05, 2015, 03:02:15 pm
Chris, The lower shock bolts are chrome. I checked on the washers on the chain adjuster stoppers and you are correct, they are not used there. They are not in the parts book and not in my notes. I don't know why I put them on. :o ::) I must pay closer attention. Thanks for catching that. I appreciate the input that you guys have. ;D I think 302 is plenty early. There can't be too many differences from 97. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on May 05, 2015, 04:06:50 pm
This is starting to take shape... It is very good clean work as I like it is done... ;) There is no washer with the screws of the stops it just seems to me memory...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 05, 2015, 05:10:59 pm
Yes after looking at it I realized they would interfere with the chain adjusters so I would have caught it.
As long as we are talking about washers, as I was checking my notes, I noticed something that I am questioning. I show that the M10 washers on the screws that clamp the steering stem to the fork tubes are chrome. Can anyone confirm that? They are a special small size outside diameter of 18mm and according to my records they are the only two of that size on the bike. Because of their location and the fact that the screws aren't chrome it seems odd that they would be chrome but the fact that I noted it seems too deliberate.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on May 05, 2015, 07:10:59 pm
First off, Mark, how exciting this is to see your gorgeous build come together. How great of you to take the additional time to take pictures, post them. Thank you !
because i'm not sure what you are referring to and i don't want to create unnecessary confusion, i hate to risk saying my opinion, .... but i'll give it a stab....
only 10 mm bolts i can think of, thread in to the lower clamp that's part of steering stem. as i recall, those are plain washers (pn 94102-1000) and are bright zinc.... (the RH bolt also fixes the stamped guide for the speedo cable. the washer is on top of the guide.)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 06, 2015, 08:00:39 am
Thanks Steve.
Yes those are the ones I'm referring to. Makes sense that they would be zinc. Have others seen zinc too?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on May 06, 2015, 09:59:30 am
Yes, I also confirm... I have two new washers a very old stock and they are well galvanised as the two 10mm bolts that tighten the fork tubes.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on May 22, 2015, 07:04:32 pm
Mark, All I can say is the contribution you make to this group through your restoration is astounding. Attention to detail is 100% and the quality of your work to my mind is unsurpassed. KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 25, 2015, 01:12:16 pm
Thanks KP. I wouldn't be able to do it without the contributions that all you guys make.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 17, 2015, 08:02:51 am
I assembled the fork bottoms and completed the forks. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01600.JPG)
They’re ready to put on the frame. It sure is nice to have pristine fork assemblies. They look like brand new. ;D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01638.JPG)
I got my painting back too. Looks great. Now I can start to see some color. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01646.JPG)
Except for my control housings and master cylinder (more to come on that) I think the rest of the parts are all painted, plated, polished and otherwise ready to assemble. In theory it should go pretty fast at this point. I still have to get tires, battery, chain, etc. but I just might be starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel. ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 17, 2015, 08:35:46 am
I decided to use new coils. I understand that some of the early coils were larger but if #97’s were then my frame probably would have been notched per Honda Recall #15 for the throttle valve and cable. Of course the coils could have been changed before the recall but when I go to first start up I don’t want to be wondering if the coils are bad if I have issues. Picture shows no notch. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01644.JPG)
So I have the coils mounted. It’s really hard to tell just how they go from looking at the parts manuals; in fact the early and later manuals are different in which way the coil hanger bracket goes. Take a look at the pictures below and tell me if you think I have it assembled correctly. It seemed to be the only way it would go so that the coils were centered on the frame. Here’s the right side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01642.JPG)
Here’s the left side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01643.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on June 17, 2015, 10:00:50 am
Just great Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on June 17, 2015, 12:23:16 pm
honestly, i could be wrong, but i don't think i am, but it's all from memory, so forgive me, but seems one bolt went one way and the other bolt went the other..... ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on June 17, 2015, 07:56:29 pm
And don't forget to align the bolt heads straight up and down for Steve..... ;D DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 18, 2015, 08:22:07 am
I found this picture in a Honda Manual. It’s a little hard to see but the coil appears to be mounted the same way I did it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Coil.jpg)
And don't forget to align the bolt heads straight up and down for Steve..... ;D DW
Fortunately the picture doesn't show the heads aligned. ::) ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on June 18, 2015, 11:29:53 am
Your editing is good, front support goes to the left and the rear bracket goes to the right. Mark... You have the instinct!! ::) ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on June 18, 2015, 06:39:04 pm
Nice ! whaddo i know ? ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on July 29, 2015, 11:10:30 am
I have been plugging away but have fallen behind in my posts.
After much discussion on this thread, http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=281.0, (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=281.0,) I have decided to go with Dunlop F11/K87 tires from Yamiya. They seem to be the tire of choice by Vic World and others. I would still like to find some decent Bridgestone Super Speeds but I’m not very optimistic about finding a good rear one. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01656.JPG)
These are the wheels that came on #97. I tried to take a picture that shows the rolled rim but this is about the best I got. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01672.JPG)
The DID logo is the only marking on the rims. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01673.JPG)
This bike won’t get many miles on it and probably won’t ever get these lines worn off. For showing should I try to wash them off or just leave them? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01657.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on July 29, 2015, 11:41:05 am
i don't know if markings were on tires from factory, but if there were, i doubt the factory washed them off.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on July 29, 2015, 12:25:11 pm
I agree. So should I let it look like it just left the factory or like it might have been ridden?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on July 29, 2015, 12:42:31 pm
After much research I determined that the carb insulator bands (carb to head) are finished in nickel chrome and the airbox bands are zinc plated. I found a NOS set of the airbox bands and since the insulator bands are unavailable I had mine replated. I think they turned out perfect. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01658.JPG)
Also the carb insulator bands have a square nut with a 22mm screw and the airbox bands have a hex nut with a 20mm screw. By the way, the colors in this pic are not the way the parts actually look. I was wearing a maroon shirt that must have reflected. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01660.JPG)
These features are on the early sandcasts. Beyond that I won’t make any claims.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on July 29, 2015, 02:07:43 pm
I had forgotten about my brake caliper until I was working on my wheels. I paint them the same color as the engine cases. I already had it apart but I couldn’t get the piston out. I seem to remember previously using a hose clamp to clamp an airline onto the bleeder screw and plugging the inlet and turning up the pressure until the piston came out. This go round I decided to make up an adapter tool. I drilled a hole in a M10 screw and tapped a hole for a #10-32 to ¼” tube fitting. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01653.JPG)
Then I put my adapter in the inlet, plugged the bleeder hole (could have just left the bleeder screw in) and hooked it up with a regulator. I set it in the vice just in case it would blast the piston out. I turned the regulator up to 100 psi and was disappointed at first because I didn’t think it did anything but when I took the caliper out of the vice the piston was half way out. The vice was preventing it from coming all the way out. So I opened the vice up a bit and turn the pressure up again and it came right out. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01654.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: steff750 on August 01, 2015, 12:21:46 pm
Quote
This bike won’t get many miles on it and probably won’t ever get these lines worn off. For showing should I try to wash them off or just leave
;) i would say run them tires in for a hundred miles just too scrub them in ,that should remove the lines at the same time i would not like to see that nice new bike go down the road, just cause the tires are to smooth ;) safe driving
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 03, 2015, 01:50:19 pm
My anodizing is finally done. It took me 3 times to get it right but they look great. ;D I had close to 4 sets that I had done twice. >:( First lesson: do a small batch and see how they turn out. I brought them to a local plater along with a NOS part for an example. No problem. They would strip and anodize them. When I went to pick them up they were black but as flat as they could be. “If I wanted them shiner I should have asked to have them polished.” “But I showed you a part that was how I wanted it!” Didn’t matter. OK so I left them again for stripping, polishing and anodizing. When I picked them up they were a bit shinier but blotchy. “There’s nothing I can do about these old cast parts.” So I saw a post from Ujeni (Sam) showing some parts he had done. It turns out there are two processes for anodizing: sulfuric and chromic. Chromic is the required process. My plater does sulfuric and I could not find anyone in my area that does chromic. So I had them stripped, again, from my same local plater and polished them. Sam offered to check them out and get them to his plater. Sam’s plater is Sanford Metal Processing in CA. Thanks again Sam. ;) Again they look great. So if you want to anodize your control housings and master cylinder here’s what you have to do. 1. Have them stripped. 2. Polish them (I don’t think you can overdo this step). 3. Have them anodized using the chromic method. I hope yours turn out as well as mine did. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01664.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on August 03, 2015, 02:03:28 pm
Happy to help out Mark! Parts look great!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on August 03, 2015, 04:31:56 pm
I'm jealous!! :o :o They are absolutely gorgeous!! ::) ::) Congratulations to Sam ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on August 03, 2015, 04:33:38 pm
Mark that anodising looks awesome, i hope i can find someone in the UK to do mine to that standard pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 18, 2015, 12:48:37 pm
I finally got around to replacing the seal in my cam chain adjuster and installed it on the engine. There are differences between the early sandcast and later holders. In the first two pictures my original sandcast holder is on the left. This view shows where the holder is spot-faced for the mounting screws. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01679.JPG)
The original one is also much rougher than the later one as shown here. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01680.JPG)
Here’s close up showing the rougher sandcast finish on the original. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01682.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: DW69K0 on August 18, 2015, 06:06:20 pm
Mark, Your attention to detail and documented progress on 97 is inspiring! Can't wait to gawk at the finished beauty! DW
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 21, 2015, 08:06:51 am
Thanks Duane.
Here’s my rebuilt Tokico 1 caliper. They were used on the early sandcasts. As near as I can tell from old manuals the bleeder valve is black. Is this correct? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01728.JPG)
Here’s a close up of the name. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01729.JPG)
Here’s a shot of the back side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01726.JPG)
Note the knurled head screws and the long center rib (which extends down close to the pin on the brake pad) which are both characteristics of the early caliper. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01727.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 21, 2015, 08:13:21 am
I also got my final drive flange assembly done. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01712.JPG)
It has the early 45 tooth sprocket. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01715.JPG)
Here’s a shot of the back side. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01716.JPG)
The early sandcasts have “8” head bolts for fastening the sprocket. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01723.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on August 21, 2015, 01:09:20 pm
Mark, Very good work!! I think that the bleeder valve is black... Just a note... Never of paint on the Caliper Holder...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 23, 2015, 12:53:51 pm
I'll have to check some of my other early ones. I was sure they had paint. Anyone else have holders with/without paint?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on August 23, 2015, 12:55:41 pm
All of mine appear to have no paint.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on August 23, 2015, 03:04:49 pm
I am categorical : no paint on this part... It seems to me that this issue has been raised on the restoration of our friend Marcello #6457 / E-7083 After you do as you want... ;)
Gerard
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: CBman on August 24, 2015, 06:10:08 am
I agree with Gerard. Have not seen paint on caliper joint.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 24, 2015, 08:22:11 am
Thanks for the feedback guys. That's why I post here, to catch details like this. I don't know how I missed it on Marcello's thread.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on September 16, 2015, 07:23:30 pm
Here’s a shot of my oil lines before working on them. I would like be able save them since they are the original rubber lines. Whether or not they will leak is yet to be seen. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01735.JPG)
Here is after working on them. I flushed them out good and dragged a wire through with a bit of cloth on it. That was a little tricky with the corners but internally I think they’re pretty clean. Then I cleaned them up on the outside. I wire brushed the aluminum and then used aluminum brightener. I used Rubber Renew on the rubber and they cleaned up nice and got back some flexibility. Then I sanded and painted the steel parts. I think they look great. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01762.JPG)
I tried quite a few paints with no luck. The Eastwood’s Clear Zinc didn’t even look close. It came out a matte grey. Then I stumbled across a can of this laying around in our shop and tried it. I never would have guessed it would look so good. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01761.JPG)
It almost seemed too shiny but compared to some of my brighter zinc plate parts it is almost an exact match. I’m happy. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01764.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on September 16, 2015, 09:35:57 pm
Excellent outcome Mark. Saving a set of those original lines must have pleased you no end and I'm happy for you KP
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on September 16, 2015, 10:24:56 pm
Excellent outcome Mark. Saving a set of those original lines must have pleased you no end and I'm happy for you KP
ahh... ! ;D ;D ;D back to the land of the living..... ;D ;D ;D ;D nice to hear from you Mr. KPster McGster ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on September 17, 2015, 03:16:25 am
Good Morning Mr Swan ;D. I'm always visiting the forum but I just don't have much to say these days. It's good to see the regular interest being shown by the group and the new information emerging. I'm also a big fan or Mark's project as I am with your many projects :o. I realise Mark's restoration relates to a very low VIN but I reckon every restorer out there can get something from these regular postings; I know I certainly do. :D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on September 17, 2015, 08:29:36 am
Completely bluffing... It is hard to believe that they are the same oil lines...:o :o Very good job!! And good product!!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on September 17, 2015, 09:31:08 am
Mark, what color is the Rustoleum Metallic Finish ?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on September 17, 2015, 11:02:06 am
Excellent question. I guess I thought is was odd that the cap was gold. I checked on line It turns out that the Bright Coat Metallic Finish comes in three colors: aluminum, gold and chrome. I checked my can and it is the chrome.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 04, 2015, 05:38:50 pm
I haven’t posted for a while and unfortunately I’m way behind on my posts. But I have a good explanation. I was hoping that I would have assembly mostly completed by fall so I could start and ride it for a bit before putting it away and working on some final details over the winter.
So then I was contacted by the Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles. They have been closed for renovation for a while and will be reopening December 6. They are going to have an exhibition of 18 different bikes on display and asked me if I would loan them #97. :o Of course I was flattered but the thought of not having the bike around was a bit unnerving. However, it didn’t take me long to change my mind. It’s not every day that one gets an opportunity like this.
After that I spent just about every spare minute working on it and as a result I did finish the assembly. I actually may not have without the extra pressure. I did run out of time to fire it up but decided that wasn’t a bad thing because then I won’t have to worry about gas in the tank and carbs. I was also hoping to get some really decent pics before it got picked up. That will have to wait too.
So here is the (temporarily) finished project. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01800.JPG)
I just hope it’s up to the standard that the museum expects. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01802.JPG)
They sent an awfully big truck to pick it up. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01808.JPG)
It is a little scary seeing it being loaded up to be hauled away. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01809.JPG)
Fortunately they definitely know what they’re doing. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01812.JPG)
One thing I have learned is it’s not as much fun when there is a deadline but I am very happy I got it is far as I did and now I’m ready for a little break from it. I aleady have a short list of things I want to do when she comes back that I’ll post later.
So now that the pressure is off I will take some time to post some of the pics I took over the summer. And it’s not like I don’t have anything else to keep me busy. I have #576 that I would like to have finished by spring. We’ll see how that goes. ::) And of course I’m planning on going out to visit #97 maybe in January or February. ;D
One more thing. I’d like thank Steve, KP and Sam for helping me out with some last minute details on the handlebar controls. I was really struggling with making them perfect and it wouldn’t have turned out nearly as good without they’re help.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on November 04, 2015, 10:04:15 pm
Looks absolutely beautiful Mark. You should be very proud.
I think we can all agree that the anodizing on those controls really makes the bike! Ha! (kidding)
Seriously though, great work. Nice to know that your bike will be appreciated by thousands of people now!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 05, 2015, 03:09:48 am
Congratulations Mark on an amazing restoration. I think I speak for all when I say it's sad to see this journey end. The final accolade for you is being asked to display your finished bike at the Petersen Museum, so you should be very proud of your achievement. Well done mate.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 05, 2015, 09:05:58 am
The journey is not quite over yet. I still need to fire it up. I have to hear what those Lotus Roots sound like. Also there are few details I need to do/redo when she comes back. For one, I am going to try to refurbish a wire harness this winter (I used a new -050 one for now). I'll post the rest of the list later.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 05, 2015, 09:48:13 am
Is everyone able to see the pictures that I posted above? I got a message from a member who says he can only see small square boxes. I can see them fine. What could be the problem?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on November 05, 2015, 10:18:23 am
The pictures are loading up fine. Excellent looking machine, job well done. Nice looking red plug key and ignition assembly. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 05, 2015, 10:39:40 am
Congratulations Mark on a beautiful job. Must be a bit of a let down to have become so intimate with "her" and then "she" "runs out" on ya. Will be nice that you can see your bike in January !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Garry32 on November 05, 2015, 11:39:24 am
Wow Mark peeeerfection looks superb, I see what you mean with the size of the courier vehicle. As you can tell the photos opened up on my iMac ok but not the iPad ?? Well done again Garry :) :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on November 05, 2015, 12:50:28 pm
Mark... Hats off!! Your 97/100 is for me " THE REFERENCE "... And for the Museum... Relaxing... Because everything will be okay. Is that of happiness!! ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on November 05, 2015, 01:17:02 pm
Absolutely pefect and beautiful! Congratulations!
You inspired me with your meticulous restoration and perfect pictures when I did #5128 (now in traffic and also looks good).
Can´t wait to see pictures from the Peterson museum!
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on November 06, 2015, 01:23:09 pm
Well done mark, i dont think you need worry about the standard they expect , i can honestly say your attention to detail is about the best i have seen from anyone, thats a great looking bike pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 08, 2015, 06:11:27 pm
Like I said in an earlier post, I still have a few things to do on #97. Hopefully some of you may get a chance to check it out. If you do please let me know if there is something that looks incorrect. I was going to see if anyone would catch a couple of details but I decided to point them out.
Besides the wire harness that I already mentioned I still need to redo the oil pressure switch wire. Those aren’t details you would see. If you look close you may see the following items.
I think the carbs are bit too dark. I would like to find a way to lighten them.
I used some repro tach and speedo cables that I had made up from MotionPro. They’re not bad. They have almost correct looking short nuts but I am going to try to get some closer matches.
The fuel lines are the wrong size. I just ran out of time to source the right ones.
And the spoke nipples are incorrect. I didn’t lace up the wheels. I was more worried about the color being correct and didn’t notice that I had given the mechanic the wrong ones. Here’s a pic showing the correct nipples on the right. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01815.JPG)
When I get time I will make a list of everything that is correct.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on November 09, 2015, 02:40:56 pm
My carbs was painted red for some reason. I sodablasted them and after that they became quite bright, almost like new aluminum. I attach a picture, as you maybe can see there is still some red paint left in small corners.
/ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 09, 2015, 04:23:13 pm
not 2 steal Mark's thread, but carbs on 1865 are the 1st set i had turn dark after running them through the ultrasonic... i have a bead blast cabinet, a 100# siphon blaster..... my question is, if i were to go the soda blasting route, do i have to buy a special setup for soda blasting ?
and.... does soda blasting alter the surface texture of the carb body.... ?
Thanks !
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 09, 2015, 05:13:26 pm
Ken, Is that all you did was soda blast?
Steve, No worries. I'd like to know too.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on November 09, 2015, 05:48:11 pm
Yes, It was just soda blasted. I have to say I was amazed by the result. I´ll attach a couple of photos of the same carburators during the blast.
Soda blasting is perfect on aluminum and will not alter the texture, it will only be very clean. You could use it on gasket surfaces or inside a carburator with no harm att all. You could rinse excessive soda with water.
I just bought a very cheap blasting gun and blasting soda, put it into a bucket and started to blast outside. I also blasted the crankcases and they became very clean but not with an altered texture at all.
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on November 09, 2015, 05:52:04 pm
I could see that it looks little like changed texture on the second picture but I think there is still powder on it, it was newly blasted as you could se from the powder rigth below. The texture is totally unchanged when you see it live. /Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on November 09, 2015, 11:45:14 pm
Have you tried soda blasting float bowls?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on November 10, 2015, 12:19:46 pm
Don´t want to steal Marks thread but I´ll answer this one.
No I have not soda blast the bowls cause i didn't have to. I polished them a little later in the assembly progress. I think they should have been as clean as the rest of the carbs. Soda blast will not affect the surface but it will take away semihard things like paint, and dirt. It will not affect things like plastic because thats kind of both soft and hard. There is plastic in the choke parts and the only became clean. Like they said back in the year of our bikes "Try it you´ll like it" :)
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: CBman on November 11, 2015, 02:19:05 pm
Mark, really excellent job!!! I like your care you take to every detail on the bike. Museum in L.A. should be happy they have to have one of the most nicest restored sandcasts in the world. John
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 27, 2015, 10:44:46 am
I ordered a personalized license plate for 97 about 12 weeks ago. It was only supposed to take 8 weeks to get it but I finally got it. I don’t know about other states but Minnesota doesn’t stamp them anymore, they print them. I don’t think they look as good but it still makes a nice finishing touch. I’m sending to the museum and they will put it on for me. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC01821.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on November 27, 2015, 02:09:42 pm
nice
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on November 27, 2015, 02:40:40 pm
Great finishing touch
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on November 30, 2015, 01:34:02 pm
Now that I have some time I will try to catch up on my posts. The #97 carbs have different vents than the later carbs. Here is a pic with the #97 carb on the left with a straight vent tube. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00661.JPG)
Here’s a closer view of the straight tube. I suspect this feature is quite rare. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00663.JPG)
Here is the typical angled tube for comparison. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00662.JPG)
The T-joint between the 1-2 and 2-3 carbs is different too. The early version with the shorter cross tube is on the left. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00652.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on November 30, 2015, 01:38:54 pm
Funny that you mention the venting tubes. Indeed, they are very rare. Vic mentioned them in a conversation once.
Interestingly, I have straight vents on #836 and not on #410. Note sure why and I am sure both are original to the bikes. Perhaps another example of early sandcast randomness?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2015, 09:38:16 am
ESR (Early Sandcast Randomness) ;D I like it. I think you've coined a new term that explains some of the differences in the early units. ;) :D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2015, 10:32:35 am
Although not really a sandcast thing, I decided to use “28” carb parts for a restoration more accurate to leaving the factory. They were replaced in a recall as described in Honda Service Bulletin #15.
As (most of) you all know, this feature is identified with the number 28 embossed on the carb tops as shown on the left. Also note that the cable adjuster is much smaller (as well as the rubber cap) for a 5mm diameter cable instead of the 6mm diameter replacement. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00658.JPG)
The tops are thinner and had a gasket. Maybe someone can chime in on this but I don’t think the gaskets are used on later carbs. At least I’ve had some sets that didn’t have them. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00659.JPG)
The caps are also thinner… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00657.JPG)
…and the slides are shorter. The “28” slides are 41mm long and the later slides are 46mm long. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00656.JPG)
And the springs are shorter. I had a couple of sets of “28” carbs but was missing a couple of springs. I had some made up to exactly match the originals. Here are specs. Material: stainless steel spring wire Wire diameter, .9mm (.035”) Free length, 128mm Outside diameter, 18.5mm Active coils, 15 ½ Total coils, 13 ½ Closed ends Load @ 55mm = 1.15 lb. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC00654.JPG)
I had the carbs rebuilt by hondaman from the SOHC4 site and bought some excellent reproduction 5mm throttle cables from vnz00 (thanks Steven). At least for now when I twist the throttle and let go it snaps right back. I think they will be just fine.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Garry32 on December 01, 2015, 12:49:02 pm
Hi Mark, Can you give me more info on vnz00, I am looking for a few 5mm cables.Do you have any springs spare.You can p/m if you want. Garry :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 01, 2015, 05:50:50 pm
PM sent.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Erling on December 02, 2015, 04:06:07 am
What about the diameter of 46m carburettor slides? They seem to be 2/100 mm smaller. In the day only changed the slides. Stronger springs were too much for my weak handcuffs. Never had a sticking slide after that though. An explanation to what exactly caused a sticking slide I've not heard. Only happened when warming up engine too enthusiastic on twist grip! Maybe some heat distortion on carb body before proper and even warm? Erling.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 02, 2015, 08:34:43 am
When I put the slides in the carbs they seemed the same to me but 0.02mm isn't very much. When I get a chance I will measure them and report back.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: ken736cc on December 02, 2015, 01:54:36 pm
I am in need of a 5mm cable also. Can you give me more info on vnz00. Thanks
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 03, 2015, 07:19:51 pm
He is an active member here. If you look under members you can find him and send a PM or email.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 12, 2015, 04:54:09 pm
I have some pictures of #97 on display at the Petersen Museum. Sam (ujeni) sent me a link for a blog he saw about the re-opening and the motorcycle display. Here it is if you want to check it out. http://www.bike-urious.com/the-petersen-museum-is-back/ (http://www.bike-urious.com/the-petersen-museum-is-back/)
These first three pictures are from the blog. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen1.jpg)
They are in chronological order from newest in the back to oldest in the front. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen2.jpg)
Everyone knows the red sandcasts are fastest and displayed going downhill makes it look even faster. ;) :D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen3.jpg)
The rest of the pictures are from the guy who originally called me and doesn’t work there anymore but happened to be there for the re-opening. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen4.jpg)
She’s in pretty nice company. There is a lot of red around. A blue/green one would have looked nice too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen5.jpg)
Here you can see a Triumph Bonneville to the right and there is a Vincent Black Shadow that you can’t see ahead of the Triumph, a couple of my favorite non-Japanese bikes. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen6.jpg)
I think that’s a couple of Harleys in front and there is a Kawasaki and Ducati behind. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen7.jpg)
Here are a couple of close-ups. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen11.jpg)
I like this shot. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Petersen12.jpg)
I’m really looking forward to going to see it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kenhan on December 12, 2015, 05:03:19 pm
Wonderful! Congratulations!
/Ken
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 13, 2015, 10:31:32 am
Mark... very sincerely... You have the right to brag on this magnificent result!!
Gerard ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: UK Pete on December 13, 2015, 01:07:25 pm
Well done mark , you must be real proud pete
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 14, 2015, 08:43:10 am
Thanks for all the nice comments guys.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sgt.Pinback on December 14, 2015, 12:03:37 pm
A big Yes for the ZP... but do not put washer for the bolt "8"... ;)
Thanks!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 16, 2015, 10:28:13 am
Thanks Ken.
The Petersen Museum sent me a bunch of photos of their displays. Not just the bikes but everything. Pretty amazing. This one is my favorite of #97. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/Honda1969CB750.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 16, 2015, 12:46:56 pm
However what worries me a little... It's that they had the bad idea to put the Honda CB750 right next to the Triumph Bonneville... I hope that they will not fight the night when all the lights are off!! ;D ;D :D :D lol
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Garry32 on December 16, 2015, 02:14:44 pm
They are both from 1969 but the sandcast is more of an heavyweight class to the T120 weighing in at 750cc as apposed to 650cc. Garry :) :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on December 16, 2015, 04:03:37 pm
They are both from 1969 but the sandcast is more of an heavyweight class to the T120 weighing in at 750cc as apposed to 650cc. Garry :) :)
Oups!!... The Bonneville has already taken half a step ahead... But the Sandcast has not said its last word... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Erling on December 17, 2015, 04:33:52 am
In the day a friends Bonneville was faster on acceleration than my CB750! Well he had to take off silencers and engine was fitted with 1.5 inch cam followers. Model probabely a couple of years older than this one too. Erling.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 22, 2015, 04:03:11 pm
I hope that they will not fight the night when all the lights are off!!
:D :D :D I don't think they will be fighting, they're too old. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Triumph is a little jealous. ;) ;D ;D
You should know that in France in the years 60 ' and 70 ' the English motorcycles disliked >:( >:( >:( Japanese motorcycles... I don't know if it was the same in other countries..?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on December 23, 2015, 04:01:26 am
You bet it was the same in Australia. There were two camps in the late 60s and well into the 70s. Those that remained loyal to the British bikes and those that were adventurous and wanted the Jpanese bikes. The Japanese bikes were so modern (and reliable) compared to the Triumph, Norton, and BSA marques. The only bikes which were considered even remotely up to par were the Trident, Rocket3 and the Commando but the Honda CB750 was the bike that changed everyone here. I owned a T100 Daytona and couldn't wait to be rid of it and bought my first Honda four in 1971 or 72 after owning a Bridgestone 350GTR. When the Z1 was released in late 72 it was all over for the British bikes. My mate who was loyal to the British bikes but finally gave in an bought a Z1 and was a convert from then on. I look at these British bikes and see 1940s design and technology and can see why they went the way they did. Land Rovers are very similar to that design philosophy and when Toyota brought out the Land Cruiser it was all over for that marque as well even though they still make and sell that very same basic design in limited numbers I'm surprised the museum even placed a Triumph as an exhibit when there were so many more worthy British bikes way better IMHO. The Commando, Vincent everything and Rocket 3 to name a few
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 23, 2015, 12:00:50 pm
I'd say pretty much the same in the US after the CB750 arrived.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Garry32 on December 23, 2015, 01:25:57 pm
The bonneville collection even though it was produced in the UK at the Meriden factory over 75% went to the USA and 25% to the rest of the world. I have visited the VMCC in the UK where any member could at one time read the records of production numbers and country's of delivery.Some of the TT, T120c,Tr6ss,Tr6sc for 1963-1968 were never even kept for use in the UK.So I think the Triumph is more iconic to the US than Vincent or Commando For that year. Garry :) :) Merry Christmas to all and all the best for 2016
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: CB750faces.com (Lecram) on August 02, 2016, 05:16:14 pm
It's been a while that I have visited this forum, and I now see what an awsome result of the restoration job you've done! This is probably the best CB750 restoration I have ever seen! Thanks for sharing all the details.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 03, 2016, 07:41:05 am
Marcel, thanks for the nice compliment. You helped make it possible with your excellent job of restoring the gauges. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on August 03, 2016, 05:50:41 pm
Mark,
I was able to visit the Petersen Museum about two months ago and saw your bike up close. As good of a restoration as I have ever seen. Excellent work. Any getting a lot of attention! One of the jewels of the museum for sure!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: CB750faces.com (Lecram) on August 03, 2016, 06:16:57 pm
I was able to visit the Petersen Museum about two months ago and saw your bike up close. As good of a restoration as I have ever seen. Excellent work. Any getting a lot of attention! One of the jewels of the museum for sure!
Thanks, Sam. That is very flattering coming from you. You were also a huge help. It would not have been as good without your help with the black anodizing the control housings.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 02, 2017, 02:38:46 pm
I was checking out this thread on the SOHC4 site, http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,162483.0.html (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,162483.0.html) and ended up discovering something surprising (at least it surprised me).
Back when I was working on E100 I decided not to use the original cylinders. They had been bored to 1mm oversize and had a broken fin. I compared them to E1789 and found them to be identical. The engine wasn’t going to be completely original anyway so I decided to use the E1789 cylinders. At least it would be correct.
Since I was using the E1789 cylinders I decided to use the matching head. It was in better condition than E100 and I found them to be identical too. So here comes the surprise. While looking at towers I happened to look at the E100 head (I saved it of course). Here’s pics. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG0872.JPG)
Can you spot anything unusual? (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG0875.JPG)
Ding, ding, ding, ding. It is missing the outside spot faced holes that are under the towers! I can’t believe I didn’t catch that. According to the CB750-K2 parts manual only two of the small o-rings were required up to engine number 563. I know I had seen that before but I didn’t know why. Now it’s plenty obvious. I did a search and checked the distinctions and couldn’t find anything about it. So here is one to add.
Obviously there are a few engines under 563 around and I can’t believe I’ve never seen anything about this. The last thing I want to do is pull out E100. But you all probably know me by now and know that I can’t let this go. When I get 97 back the engine’s coming out. I’ll probably re-sleeve and repair the fin and use the cylinders too. It’s still at the Petersen until February 28 so I have plenty of time to get them both ready.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 02, 2017, 04:44:33 pm
But you all probably know me by now and know that I can’t let this go. When I get 97 back the engine’s coming out.
Ever the purist my friend. I like it 👏
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 03, 2017, 12:03:55 pm
So am I the only one that was surprised by the discovery of only two spot faced holes under the towers. :o ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on January 03, 2017, 02:59:45 pm
Just been looking at some pictures of E338 taken during its restoration ten years or so back - see attached, which confirms your observation re. E100 and fits with the parts list which shows only two O-rings to #563. I also have a recollection that the front cooling fins between the two centre cylinder heads differ in shape (larger) to those in later heads. Maybe you can check #100 against #1789 to see if you agree?
Cheers - Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 04, 2017, 11:45:04 am
i hate to say this, but i knew that with E254, BUT it never registered in my mind to make it a distinction. i shall add it.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 04, 2017, 12:05:45 pm
i have added #93 distinction. please review to make sure it makes sense.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 04, 2017, 02:25:27 pm
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on April 02, 2017, 10:52:41 am
After spending a year and four months at the Petersen Automotive Museum #97 is back home safe and sound. I got to go see it once. It was pretty fun. Now for some more work. I was hoping I would have the head and cylinders ready to go but no such luck. I’m about half way there. And of course summer is coming up. #97 isn’t going anywhere now so when I get the parts ready she will be coming apart. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/97home.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on April 02, 2017, 07:04:28 pm
Very sincerely... glad she came back because she was starting to miss me... ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on April 02, 2017, 08:18:04 pm
Very sincerely... glad she came back because she was starting to miss me... ;)
Gerard, i LOVE your sense of humor ! it's so nice to have members like you from different parts of the world.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on August 23, 2018, 12:25:00 pm
Recently I asked a question and it was suggested that I read Mark's thread to get a deeper appreciation for the uniqueness and distinctions of a Sandcast, in this case a very early one. I started reading and learned a lot, but also realized how little I knew. After reading all 48 pages, I have a newfound respect (and envy) for all of you who have spent the time and efforts to return these bikes to their original glory. Mark's 97 is amazing in its attention to the smallest detail. These same details would seem insignificant to the uninformed, but those people would be missing important bits of information and history.
To share a thought that most of you have already had, it seems Honda did what they had to to get bike's out the door. I'm very happy to have 2659 as it is, my first and maybe only Sandcast. Many thanks to this sites members for their dedication and willingness to share their knowledge.
John
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 27, 2018, 04:21:38 pm
Thanks for the nice compliment John. I haven't added anything for quite a while but hope to soon. I have some improvements and corrections to do. Things have been too busy and I've also had to move all my bikes and parts to a new location. I hope to start posting again by fall. Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on August 27, 2018, 07:52:29 pm
Recently I asked a question and it was suggested that I read Mark's thread to get a deeper appreciation for the uniqueness and distinctions of a Sandcast, in this case a very early one. I started reading and learned a lot, but also realized how little I knew. After reading all 48 pages, I have a newfound respect (and envy) for all of you who have spent the time and efforts to return these bikes to their original glory. Mark's 97 is amazing in its attention to the smallest detail. These same details would seem insignificant to the uninformed, but those people would be missing important bits of information and history.
To share a thought that most of you have already had, it seems Honda did what they had to to get bike's out the door. I'm very happy to have 2659 as it is, my first and maybe only Sandcast. Many thanks to this sites members for their dedication and willingness to share their knowledge.
John
John, thank you for your heartfelt compliment, it is much appreciated. a number of us have put in many hours to gather information, help others and learn as much as we can in the process. Really all it takes is desire to learn and, willingness to admit when one does not know.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 09, 2018, 03:34:38 pm
After a long break I’m finally getting back into it. I have the correct head and cylinder now ready to install in E100. While I was at it I figured I might as well do three at a time. Here are the heads for E100, E748 and E1490. The head that’s in E100 now will go back where it belongs in E1789. I had all three vapor blasted by Nils at RestoCycle. Great work, really pleased. All three had complete valve jobs too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181208_125100.jpg)
Here’s E100’ head. You can see the where the missing spot faced holes are as outlined above. It had to have the tapped hole just to the right of the #2 intake valve repaired. If you look at the picture above you might be able to see it where the gasket surface was broken away. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181208_125134.jpg)
It had to be welded, machined and helicoiled. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG1428.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 09, 2018, 04:05:24 pm
The cylinder for E100 had a broken fin and had been bored to 1mm oversize. As I said that’s why I chose not to use it. But since the engine is coming apart for the original head I’m fixing the cylinder too. Here’s a couple of shots of the broken fin. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG0888.JPG)
It broken off pretty deep so there was no way to weld on a replacement fin. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG0886.JPG)
I had my welder build up layers to fill it in. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG0966.JPG)
There was a lot of material to remove. At first I could only get a skinny file in so it took a while. I think I had 6 hours into it by the time I was done. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG0968.JPG)
Here’s the finished product. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG1435.JPG)
It’s not painted here but after I got it painted you can’t tell. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG1436.JPG)
I had it resleeved and rebored too. And like the heads As long as I was doing it I did E748 and E1490 too. After I get 97 put back together I’m planning on assembling E748, E1490 and E1789 at the same time. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CIMG1466.JPG)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on December 10, 2018, 10:36:42 am
As always, I admire your patients and quality of work Mark! Keep it up. You are making the rest of us restorers look bad! :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 10, 2018, 04:48:53 pm
Great work Mark! very nice to see you back on the forum sharing your dedication to all things sandcast.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 12, 2018, 01:10:10 pm
As always, I admire your patients and quality of work Mark! Keep it up. You are making the rest of us restorers look bad! :)
Thanks for the kind words. Not so sure I'm making anyone look bad except myself. If I would have done it right the first time I wouldn't have to do what I'm doing. It didn't take me long to decide that I had to do it. Just took me a while to get to it. :-[
The engine is out. This is just to document that it was, in fact, removed from the frame. Including removing everything that has to be removed first it took me about 4 ½ hours. It could have been 4 hours but I was taking it real slow so I wouldn’t ding anything. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181209_161813.jpg)
And the wheels are off too. I need to have them redone with the correct spoke nipples. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181209_161741.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 12, 2018, 11:23:46 pm
good work, Mark. did you manage to get the engine out without leaving any marks? i have to pull the engine on 232. someday... so, i know the feeling. not dreading it, there is just so damn much care handling wrenches, holding bolts while tightening nuts, etc, etc. it all takes time. i've not had to dismantle a restoration, but i can only imagine there is stress on the paint where lock washers tightened against the paint an it could crack off when loosening nuts. i have a "diamond/criss-cross" cam cover with the 8 early type adjuster caps i'd like to install. someday... i haven't even got around to swapping out the later alternator cover for the thin lip cover; that's the easy part ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 13, 2018, 05:10:06 pm
It actually came out really well. I should have taken some pics. I'll do that when I put the engine back in. I use a hoist and a variation of a "C" hook that is commonly used. You're absolutely right about the lock washers and nuts marring up the paint when they're loosened. There's not much you can do about that so there may be a few spots that I will try to touch up. Good luck on your project when you get to it. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on December 20, 2018, 12:08:54 pm
Step by step. Hope everyone's days aren't too chaotic, what with the holidays and all. Just got back two MC's and caps from being black chromic anodized Type 1. Caps seem to have shinier finish than the bodies. Is this the way they should look? Thanks
John
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 20, 2018, 04:58:14 pm
They do seem shinier than the bodies. It's hard to tell in the pics if it's too much. Do you polish them or did the plater? The anodizing isn't what made them shiny.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on December 20, 2018, 08:18:21 pm
I had them stripped and polished locally (NJ), and then Sanford did the "Chromic Anodize Type 1, Cl 2, Black" (from their invoice).
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on December 20, 2018, 08:28:05 pm
The caps are much shinier in person. Do these pics show the difference better?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 21, 2018, 12:27:09 pm
I think they're fine especially considering what it would take to "dull" them up a little.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on December 21, 2018, 08:58:13 pm
Okay. Thanks. Have a great Holiday.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 29, 2018, 01:31:47 pm
Before I swap the head I decided to split the cases to check out the kick starter. I used plenty of padding to protect from damaging the cases. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181223_101448.jpg)
Something was causing it to lock up. I confirmed that it was assembled correctly and it worked with the cases apart. I took the assembly apart and comparing the parts to others I have everything looked fine. The only thing I could think of was I had not put any grease on the shaft where it goes through the clutch cover. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181223_101503.jpg)
I put it back together with different parts and installed a new pawl spring. The only other thing I did was polish the ends of the shaft and lubricated them before reassembling. Then I put it all back together and installed the clutch cover and now it works fine. Could it have been that the shaft was binding in the clutch cover because it was dry? :o I could have saved myself a lot of work but I had to be sure. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181223_101535.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 29, 2018, 02:03:03 pm
Ok, I might have a change of plans. My next project was to swap the head and cylinder and put in the originals. I was going to put in the o-rings on the bottom of the cylinder and something didn’t look right. So I dug out the cylinder from E748 to compare. The bottom of the sleeves are different. E748 is on the left and E100 is on the right. Besides fixing the fin I had to have the cylinder resleeved and rebored because it had been bored to 1mm over. I’ve got to start paying closer attention. ::) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181229_115435.jpg)
Externally the E100 cylinder looks the same as the cylinder that’s on E100. So I’m thinking do I want to be correct or original? If this were the only original part on the engine that would be one thing. Clutch and transmission are not original. If you’ve seen earlier posts you know why. The other thing is I tried removing one of the rubber inserts between the fins. The nibs broke off. I think I have just enough to do the head but definitely not another cylinder. Maybe I could find some more. Maybe they would only cost $100. Bottom line is I’m thinking of only swapping the head. I have to do that to be correct.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on December 29, 2018, 03:54:53 pm
If it were mine, i would use the cylinder block that the engine came with even if the sleeves look a bit different. No real reason other than knowing that the engine is "original" and not from another bike. I realize that this is pretty flimsy reasoning know that other parts of the engine came from other sources. It would not bother me to now that they sleeves were different; they are a part designed to wear down after all right?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 30, 2018, 10:18:36 am
That's logical reasoning. If I had enough rubber inserts to "finish it off" I would probably use the original cylinder. I really don't think I'll be able to remove them from the old cylinder without damage. It's a pretty visible feature and would look incomplete without them. I am going to try to find some more, again. Anyone else have opinions about which cylinder I should use?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 30, 2018, 12:08:51 pm
imo, unless physically impossible, i'd do anything possible to keep all the parts original to the bike together.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: hondasan on December 30, 2018, 01:13:18 pm
Check out item 202550314968 on eBay - part number is 286 middle number, so for 250/350 twins, though described as for 750 in listing. Not sure of difference if any. David Silver Spares sells repros for the 750 too, though not cheap at £3.25 or so each.
Chris R.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 30, 2018, 01:35:52 pm
imo, unless physically impossible, i'd do anything possible to keep all the parts original to the bike together.
After thinking about it I agree. I already have the old head and jugs off. What pushed me over the edge was I checked what I have for new inserts and I only have 4. Not enough for the head which was going to get replaced no matter what. So unless I could find some it would go without too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181230_120922.jpg)
Check out item 202550314968 on eBay - part number is 286 middle number, so for 250/350 twins, though described as for 750 in listing. Not sure of difference if any. David Silver Spares sells repros for the 750 too, though not cheap at £3.25 or so each.
Chris R.
So I'm taking a break and saw your post too. :o They're the right color so I already bought them. Thanks Chris for the tip. ;) If for some reason they don't work I'll just keep looking until I find some.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 30, 2018, 04:58:46 pm
yup.... in my experience it is fidelity to achieving the finer details that requires more attention and is more tiring than correcting the larger 'problems'.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 31, 2018, 09:02:45 am
So I got the jugs and head on and I’m thinking could things go any better. Well the answer to that was no. I torqued down the 16 head nuts and then when torqueing the 6mm screws under the pucks, one of them stripped out. ??? >:( That’s where I quit for the day yesterday so I could think about what to do. I decided to heli-coil it. I thought about trying to do it in place but decided the best is to pull the cylinder off and do it right. There isn’t a lot of room between the hole and the flange on the cylinder sleeve so it seems like the tap drill and tap may go into the flange. I think the sleeve is soft enough for that. My only other decision now is while I’m at it should I do all four?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 31, 2018, 11:49:34 am
Mark, speaking only for myself, i would not use helicoil in that area. i would go with a timesert which i am sure you are familiar with. repairing all four of those holes is one of those things you just have to decide if not repairing them is worth the gamble. when i restored E1973, on the initial assembly, i pulled threads out of at least 2 or 3 of those 6 mm holes. luckily, on the 2nd assembly, i did not pull anymore.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on December 31, 2018, 12:11:21 pm
The main reason I'm thinking Heli-coils (besides having them on hand) is there isn't much room before hitting the sleeve flange. I'm not sure if the Time-serts are bigger or not. Maybe I'm thinking Keen-serts. I've never had any issues with heli-coils. Why do you prefer the timeserts?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 31, 2018, 05:43:35 pm
The main reason I'm thinking Heli-coils (besides having them on hand) is there isn't much room before hitting the sleeve flange. I'm not sure if the Time-serts are bigger or not. Maybe I'm thinking Keen-serts. I've never had any issues with heli-coils. Why do you prefer the timeserts?
i prefer timesert because it is an actual insert threaded into a hole and not a strand of wire wrapped into the thread; in my experience, timesert is a more durable and rigid repair. unlike timeserts, i've had helicoils walk out when removing the fastener or pull out when tightening the fastener; in particular, cases where the helicoil had already been in place prior to my tightening or loosening said fastener. not that i am against helicoils, i am not, i do believe in certain applications they have their place and work well. my thinking about the variables of when to consider timesert vs. helicoil, in the case of the cylinder head, because of cold-to-hot-to-cold temperature variability of repeated cycles of expansion and contraction, accompanied with high frequency vibration, i would go with timesert. the m/c repair shop i worked in as a mechanic for 3 years, when/where ever possible we used timesert. there's a little more involved with installing a timesert vs. a helicoil, but imho, the extra steps to install a timesert are worth the minimally extra amount of time and effort. and as you mention, there may be areas where there simply is not enough metal or space to install a timesert and a helicoil is the ticket. my personal preference, i will always use a timesert over a helicoil when/where ever possible. http://www.timesert.com/ (http://www.timesert.com/)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on December 31, 2018, 06:16:47 pm
since i didn't know what a keensert was, i looked it up. fwiw, here is some interesting reading on time vs. keesert that seems minus the bullshit one can find on DB's from time to time - https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?28829-Keenserts-vs-Timeserts (https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?28829-Keenserts-vs-Timeserts)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 01, 2019, 10:52:10 am
Thanks Steve for your opinion and the additional information. After careful consideration I decided to stick with the Heli-coils mainly because of the small distance to the sleeve flange. Hopefully I will never pull the head off again and this engine will never get stressed like a normal rider.
I pulled the cylinder off to install the Heli-coils. I thought about doing the one in place but decided against it because of the accuracy and the chips. I looked at all of the 6mm holes and at least one more of them looked suspect so I did all four under the pucks. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181231_180311.jpg)
They were pretty close to the sleeve flanges but the tap just barely went into the flange. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181231_180232.jpg)
While I was at it I did the rear one too. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20181231_180245.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 01, 2019, 02:43:17 pm
Finally, the cylinder and head assembled. The original cylinder and head. The 6mm screws torqued down just fine. I’m happy I went that route in spite of the extra work. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190101_131949.jpg)
Here’s a shot where you can see the two small o-rings under the towers instead of four on later heads. I did that to document that the original head was in fact installed. :D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190101_131910.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 02, 2019, 12:09:16 pm
nice work Mark! perfect place for a helicoil.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 03, 2019, 12:07:11 pm
Well, things were going good. I got the camshaft holders and cam installed and when I torqued the 56mm screws for the caps three out of four of them stripped out. ??? It’s the holes with the pins (circled in red). (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190103_081556.jpg)
So the head is back off. Three steps forward, two steps back. These are going to be a little bit trickier because of the counter bore for the pin. Fortunately the O.D. of the Heli-coil is smaller than the 8mm pin hole. Not much choice as to what kind of insert to use here.
Some of you may be thinking that I’m maybe just over torqueing the screws. They weren’t even close when they let go. To make sure I checked my torque wrench and it is right on. Below is a picture of my method. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC03550.JPG)
This is the first time assembling this cylinder and head since they came apart. And you probably recall that they came apart hard. I’m guessing the threads were damaged then. The other thing is that the 56mm screws could be a little longer. In fact on later K0s the screw is a 60mm. If you subtract the washer and the thickness of the holder and cap and the 8mm depth of the pin hole and actual length of the screw you’re lucky to have 8mm of thread engagement. With a 60mm screw in would be 12mm engagement which would be a significant improvement.
I’m also going to be checking all of the tapped holes for the valve cover before I put the head back on.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on January 03, 2019, 09:32:29 pm
Mark, i know the sick feeling when one feels the "purchase" of fastener letting go....! it just happens; for anyone who has worked with this old metal, it is the inherent nature of the work. you are working with 50 year old materials that have been subjected to stresses and strains of use, misuse, abuse and disuse we know little to nothing about. i have interesting stories working with 90 and 92 year old materials (helping local buddy get his '29 together and i am building a second '27 for myself).
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 06, 2019, 05:58:23 pm
I’m almost ready to put the engine back in the frame. ;D ;D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190106_155923.jpg)
I Heli-coiled the holes with the pins under the cam holders. As long as I had to do it I did all four. Then I assembled the cam towers before mounting the head to make sure everything else would torque down. I also checked the valve cover. I’m glad I did. I had three of the 63mm pan head screws that were about 0.5mm from tightening, even with the gasket. Almost didn’t notice it. I thought they were tight but they were bottoming out in the tapped holes. I thought about just regrinding the screws down for those holes but if and when it comes apart again it might not be noticed. Just the kind of stuff that previous owners do to mess us up. I was able to run a tap in those holes and get just enough thread. I checked the cam chain tensioner too. I stripped out a hole for that years ago (and I Heli-coiled it). The early parts book calls out a 36mm screw and later it was changed to 40mm. I checked and there wasn’t much of the screw sticking out with the 36mm. The tapped holes were just deep enough to use the 40mm screws. So I decided it was better to be safe than correct.
I got my rubber inserts for the fins. Thanks again Chris. Just started putting them in when I ran out of gas. They go in pretty tight. The last thing I want to chance is cracking a fin. I think I’m going to trying heating them or boiling them in water to soften them up a bit. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190106_135156.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on January 21, 2019, 09:33:52 am
Mark
Was the softening process successful?
John
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 27, 2019, 12:15:02 pm
It didn't help much, if at all. I ended up using a little bit of Sil-glyde on the top and bottom to help them slide in better. Still plenty of work, but there in.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 27, 2019, 12:34:11 pm
As of yesterday she is finally together again. Once I got the engine together things went pretty good. So now in addition to the original cases it has the original cylinders and head along with the original valve cover.
I also found that the front brake was sticking so I had to pull the caliper apart and while I was at it I cleaned up the master cylinder and flushed the rest of the system. It had sat for quite a while. Works good now. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190126_161627.jpg)
Here’s some pics of my setup for installing the engine. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190113_100657.jpg)
Of course it helps to have a nice hoist. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190113_100709.jpg)
Start to finish about 45 minutes and no nicks. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190113_100752.jpg)
And I forgot to mention I now have the correct spoke nipples installed. I have a few more details to correct but she’s getting close to being as correct as humanly possible. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190127_105026.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on January 27, 2019, 07:13:13 pm
Mark
Nice workshop!! With room to expand. John
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 27, 2019, 08:26:36 pm
Yes I was thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: sandguss on January 28, 2019, 02:21:15 am
hello Mark,
excellent Job, great resto
Manfred
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on January 28, 2019, 08:55:22 am
Hello Mark :) You do not have the right cap oil on the photo that is a 14 mm on your engine, while it should be in 17 mm, and it seems to me also from memory that your regulator has a sticker for references while they must be painted, and also that your oil pan drain plug is too recent, it must be the same as the oil tank drain plug... I also think that your rear shock absorbers are not original Honda, because they are marked CB750 3.F.05 in black in the bottom near the fixing screw, which corresponds normally to CMS reproductions, they must also have a small hole of about a millimeter behind to be Honda originals... The copies from CMS do not have this little hole behind if you look at the second picture in the link... But maybe you have rectified the "errors" since... So in this case ignore it, because it was just to help you achieve perfection !! :) ;)
Thanks. It's actually my company's shop. I'm very lucky to have an area where I can work on the bikes and have all the other resources available to me as well.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 28, 2019, 09:38:00 am
Hello Mark :) You do not have the right cap oil on the photo that is a 14 mm on your engine, while it should be in 17 mm, and it seems to me also from memory that your regulator has a sticker for references while they must be painted, and also that your oil pan drain plug is too recent, it must be the same as the oil tank drain plug... I also think that your rear shock absorbers are not original Honda, because they are marked CB750 3.F.05 in black in the bottom near the fixing screw, which corresponds normally to CMS reproductions, they must also have a small hole of about a millimeter behind to be Honda originals... The copies from CMS do not have this little hole behind if you look at the second picture in the link... But maybe you have rectified the "errors" since... So in this case ignore it, because it was just to help you achieve perfection !! :) ;)
Thank you for your observations. I will definitely check into them. This is why I post, so I can learn. What do you mean by regulator?
You are correct that the shock absorbers are repros. I have originals that I haven't gotten around to restoring. There are some other flaws that I plan to correct at some point too.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on January 28, 2019, 11:46:43 am
Regulator ref : 31400-300-035
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 28, 2019, 02:40:54 pm
Ah...voltage regulator. ::) Yes, I'm a little hesitant to use 50-year old electrics. Now I haven't yet tried to start it but I would like to. If I have new parts (like coils, etc.) the odds are better that it will run and if not it shouldn't take as long to trouble shoot.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kp on January 29, 2019, 11:37:59 pm
Hello Mark :) You do not have the right cap oil on the photo that is a 14 mm on your engine, while it should be in 17 mm, and it seems to me also from memory that your regulator has a sticker for references while they must be painted, and also that your oil pan drain plug is too recent, it must be the same as the oil tank drain plug...
My friend from France is very observant, however the regulator does have a sticker and not paint.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on January 30, 2019, 05:17:31 am
I am very attentive in detail because the restoration of Mark is very interesting, it is like my bedside book when it is very late at night and I can not get to sleep...:) ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 03, 2019, 12:05:43 pm
I took some time this weekend to go the Minneapolis Motorcycle Show. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190202_143059.jpg)
The local chapter of the Antique Motorcycle Club of America asked me to bring 97 to display. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190202_144024.jpg)
That’s why I needed to get it back together. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190202_144730.jpg)
I answered a lot of questions. It’s amazing how many people have at least heard of a sandcast. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190202_145024.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on February 03, 2019, 12:57:43 pm
without a doubt, people who are into motorcycle's are aware of sandcast because of the collective experience of sooc.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on February 03, 2019, 06:57:38 pm
Nice pics Mark
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on February 03, 2019, 07:00:40 pm
One of the best-restored sandcasts that I have come across. Well done Mark.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 42barab on February 04, 2019, 11:53:28 am
Mark
Did you do the paint work? It looks gorgeous!
John
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 04, 2019, 12:46:36 pm
Thanks for the compliments guys. No, I am not a painter. It was done by Vic World's painter. His name is Blake Conway in Vista California. His number is 760-732-3950 if you would like to contact him. If you do tell him I said hi. :D
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 08, 2019, 11:01:16 am
My latest project is working on restoring brake disks. For now I have a NOS K1 disk until I can replace it with a correct restored one. I made a special tool for grinding the disks on a surface grinder. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190303_114338.jpg)
I’m still experimenting but here’s where I am so far. Before… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190303_113957.jpg)
If you’re interested here is a thread that shows a little more detail about what I’m doing starting at reply #45. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,175601.25.html (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,175601.25.html)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: bojje on March 09, 2019, 02:54:54 pm
Hi Mark! Looks very nice. With a repaint of disc-hub (not rivets) it will look like new. Next time: start with glasspearl blasting before grinding. When painting the disc-hub after blasting and grinding it will be perfect. Kind regards, Bo from Sweden.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on March 10, 2019, 10:05:22 am
Thanks. Yes, my plan is to clean up all my disks before grinding so that the only thing I have to do is mask them and paint them. I wanted to make sure the grinding looked OK before taking the time to do the cleanup.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on May 20, 2019, 09:11:08 am
I’ve finally finished restoring the brake rotor. I think it turned out pretty good. The masking was a challenge because of the spokes and the rivets on the inside.
I tried different tapes and trimming with an exacto knife but couldn’t get decent results. I finally made a tool that has a hole the same size as the diameter of the rivet with a flat land around it. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190505_131822.jpg)
Then I drilled the same size hole on the other end and machined an angle to make it sharp. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190505_131834.jpg)
After trying masking tape, vinyl tape and some others I found that the tape that worked the best was duct tape. The flat end of the tool formed the tape around the rivet head. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190505_131844.jpg)
Then the sharp end trimmed the tape perfectly. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190505_131954.jpg)
Here’s a pic of the finished product on the outside… (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190519_144121.jpg)
…and the inside. Now #97 finally has a correct rotor! (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190519_144455.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Joe K on May 20, 2019, 10:58:26 am
Very nice work, Mark!
Joe K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: kmb69 on May 20, 2019, 10:36:58 pm
Those are beautiful, Mark.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 01, 2019, 08:57:02 am
IT RUNS!! ;D I took #97 out for a short test ride last night. It’s tuned up, carbs synced and sounds great. I only went about a mile. Ran it up to 60 and through all 5 gears. Everything works. I have about a 15 second video (28MB) of it running that I would like to post but not sure how to do that. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on June 01, 2019, 09:16:35 am
You have to open a Youtube account and then put it on it and add the link here dear friend...
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on June 01, 2019, 10:14:40 am
Steps to get a video up...
1. Start an account on Youtube and upload your video. 2. Get url of the video once it is live on youtube. This will be a series of numbers and characters that look something like 0MPCcx6Q3AQ. 3. That unique sequence is important. You'll need it to embed the video in a post. Here's the code you will need to paste into the post. Change "<--" to "[" and "-->" to "]" to make it work properly. Also, make sure that you replace "0MPCcx6Q3AQ" with your unique code.
This might be a clue. When I went to modify the post the [ html ] was missing. I put it back in again and checked again and it was missing again. ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Steve Swan on June 01, 2019, 09:48:54 pm
Mark, i'm a Luddite when it comes to most fancy computer stuff, but if i can make youtube work, so can you.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on June 02, 2019, 09:41:49 am
I fixed it, but it looks like the code is wrong or the video was removed?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 02, 2019, 04:28:19 pm
I got it to work for a while but now it says it's inappropriate. :o ???
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on June 02, 2019, 07:54:57 pm
Sounds GREAT Mark! That's gotta feel nice :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 16, 2019, 02:22:27 pm
I decided to take #97 to a show (one of the reasons I wanted to make sure it runs). It was a pretty big local show. There was close to 200 bikes there. After I saw the picture on the flyer I knew I had to bring mine. Both the local chapter of the AMCA and the local chapter of the VJMC were there. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CCI06162019_0007.jpg)
Here’s a pic of it on display. It was nice that they put it on a stand right near the entrance. It definitely got a lot of attention. I was hoping it would do well. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190615_092456.jpg)
It did better than I could have hoped for. The local VJMC has cool trophies, large, nicely polished and chromed metric wrenches. I got one for Best In Show. :) (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20190616_122626.jpg)
The AMCA was also judging and I got the Junior First Award (first time entered) with 100 points! :o :D They did comment about the chrome finish on the taillight bracket but didn’t deduct any points. Maybe it helped that in was the 50th anniversary for the bike (to the month) and the only sandcast there. (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/CCI06162019_0003.jpg)
The icing on the cake though was the editor of the AMCA magazine was there and took pictures of #97. ;D He said they will be in the September/October edition. So like I said I couldn’t have asked for more. I feel very lucky and grateful for all the help I’ve gotten from the SOOC and SOHC4 sites. Thank you guys for all your help and support.
So I got the bike home and drained the gas tank, petcock bowl and carburetor bowls. I blew air down the fuel lines (lightly) with the drain screws loose and cranked the engine over for about 10 seconds (it ran for about 2 seconds) to try to suck any last gas out of the carbs. I don’t even know if that does anything, it just seemed like a good idea. Short of actually removing carbs and cleaning them is there anything else I should do? Should I actual pull them or not? It might be a while before the bike runs again. Although after the success this weekend I am toying with the idea of going to Barber. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on June 16, 2019, 04:18:22 pm
Well deserved recognition for your efforts Mark. Congratulations!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on June 17, 2019, 10:03:36 pm
Congratulations Mark. Your bike is truly one of the best restorations in the world. I saw it at the petersen museum and was blown away!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 18, 2019, 02:07:49 pm
Thanks guys. I'm not quite done yet. Despite the favorable judging, there are some details I would still like to take care of. I invite any comments on details that may not be correct.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: acruz on June 21, 2019, 01:50:14 pm
Mark, Congrats on Best in Show award. Well deserved. Great restoration thread.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on June 24, 2019, 04:36:03 pm
97 is a sweet looking machine. Who does your case and fin welding?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 30, 2019, 01:27:41 pm
It's a local shop called Weld-Kraft. They're located just west of Minneapolis. Not sure where you are but if you want to contact them their number is 952-925-0339.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: cb7504 on June 30, 2019, 08:28:13 pm
Thanks for the information Mark I'll check them out. Marty K.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on July 07, 2019, 06:30:21 am
Hi Mark, on your 97 engine start-up video, I seem see the longer winkers rods on the front ... Were they longer on the very first Sandcast models?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on July 07, 2019, 10:51:19 am
I am not aware of different lengths. There was only one stem on #97. It had a 19mm hex and was about 38mm between the hex and the winker base. Every other one that I have has a 17mm hex and is the same 38mm dimension. I used two NOS stems that matched the one on #97. Has anyone seen a different length on sandcasts?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on July 07, 2019, 01:13:40 pm
I have not. Of course they went to shorter versions around 1975.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on July 08, 2019, 06:13:42 am
It's just a question... Because we do not know much in France of the peculiarities of the first Sandcast because the first arrival "official" is dated at the beginning of October 69 and set aside the 313 we have never found trace of the 73 bikes of the month of September 69 or it was marked "California" on the wooden crates containing the bikes. And how much does the stem in mm from the start of the blinker to the nut near the headlight bowl?
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on July 08, 2019, 03:21:17 pm
That is the 38mm dimension I referred to.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: 4pots1969 on July 08, 2019, 03:30:41 pm
Okay, Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 20, 2020, 02:22:59 pm
I’m am going to sell #97. I’ve had it almost 10 years and have had a ton of fun with it but priorities are changing and it's time. Besides I have at least three other projects I’m working on.
Most of you guys know about the bike, but to the best of my ability I have put together a summary here. I’ve probably missed something but everything thing else is in this thread. For all that I have put into it I would like to see it go to a good home so I’m reluctant to put it on eBay, although maybe that would be just fine. But if anyone here is interested I would like to give you a shot.
I’m trying to come up with a price and I’ll be checking out the Mecum Auction in Las Vegas (maybe this isn’t the best timing). I will say I don’t want to give it away. It’s pretty special and very correct. There are maybe 15 2-digit sandcasts in the world (probably less than half that number in the U.S.) and only a few as nice as #97. If I get the right offer it’s gone. If anyone is interested reply here or PM me.
History • Had been parked in 1979 in Texas • Attempted startup in 1986 but supposedly couldn’t get carbs right • Parked again until bought in spring of 2010 in Oklahoma • On loan for display at the Petersen Automotive museum from December, 2015 to March, 2017 • On display at the Minneapolis Motorcycle Show February 1-3, 2019 • June 14-15, 2019 motorcycle show at the Minnesota State Fairgrounds VJMC Best in Show, AMCA Junior First Award with 100 points • Featured in the AMCA magazine August/September 2019 and AMCA 2019 calendar for August
General • VIN CB750-1000097 • Titled in Minnesota • Original red color paint done by Blake Conway (Vic World’s painter) • Everything works and it runs - 2.4 miles on odometer
Engine • Original crankcases engine number CB750E-1000100 • No casting date on upper case • Original crankshaft with 10mm rotor bolt (up to engine 1080) • Original R1 camshaft • Original sandcast cam holders • M8 x 80 mm long rear crankcase bolt (up to engine 140) • Correct original 9-hole clutch cover • Thin-lipped, smooth Honda logo alternator cover • Smaller diameter front oil gallery plug (up to engine 219) • Sandcast chain tensioner body • Rear cylinder head bolt, special • Sandcast oil pump, gear shaft housing • Correct 3-piece sandcast clutch center (up to engine 1759) • Smooth correct oil filter cover • 14mm hex oil filter bolt • 16-tooth drive sprocket • New correct rubber spacers between fins • Original valve cover with internal waffle pattern • Original cylinders (resleeved to stock bore) • Original head with two spot-faced holes under cam towers (up to engine 563) • Correct twin lock washer on transmission linkage • Original early countershaft bearing holder (rare) • Correct “8” bolts everywhere • All new O-rings, seals and ball bearings • Original smooth rubber oil lines with smooth crimped ferrules (rare)
Frame • Adhesive tag on RH steering head, no build date • Yamiya 10 hole seat with orange foam • No diagonal brace on center stand • Correct early “8” bolts everywhere • Original battery box • Original top fork clamp • LH horn with grey sheath • No tach cable guide on horn • -050 wire harness installed
Carbs • Restored to pre recall (as left factory) condition • Honda “28” carburetor caps • Short carb springs – repros • Short throttle slides • 5mm throttle cables and adjusters (repros) • Correct short cross tube on T-joints • Horizontal brass carburetor vents (super rare) • 66 mm long choke arm • Correct nickel chrome plated carb clamps
Gas tank • Original 19 liter gas tank • Decals used for stripes • Short neck petcock • Needs correct fuel lines
Side covers and air box • Correct small side cover grommets • Correct Honda 2-hole air box – not repro • Correct Honda side covers – not repro • No rubber cushions for air box mounts • No reliefs on upper corners of air box • Smooth air box boots • Correct zinc plated clamps
Front wheel • Double-cut front fender • Correct refurbished front brake disc, repainted and reground with radial grind marks • Honda NOS fork tubes • 12mm hex for front axle clamp nuts • Correct yellow zinc spoke nipples with turned down ends • Period correct Bridgestone Super Speed 3.25 x 19 tire (used, show only)
Front brake • Tokiko 1 brake caliper • Knurled socket head cap screws on brake caliper • No guide lugs on junction for top brake hose • Short neck brake hoses • “8” bolts on master cylinder clamps • Upper brake hose steel neck fitting straight • No level ring on master cylinder (rare) • Chrome brake line bolts • No rubber boot on fitting to master cylinder • Machined master cylinder cap
Rear wheel • Rolled rear rim • Correct short chain guard • Original correct rear brake panel • No hole hub (super rare) • No holes in ends of symmetrical rear wheel cushion rubbers (rare) • “8” original bolts on sprocket hub • Original 2-hole rear fender • Correct yellow zinc spoke nipples with turned down ends • Period correct Bridgestone Super Speed 4.00 x 18 tire (used, show only)
Exhaust • No number pipes with Lotus Root baffles (repro) • Exhaust spigots with radiuses on diagonal sides • 5mm thick flanges on exhaust spigots • Fat fin exhaust clamps • Short pillion/muffler bolts 126 mm long
Handlebar & controls • No Off-On-Off markings on RH switch body (rare) • No ribs on speedo/tach rubbers • Pointer-less kill switch knob • 11mm mirror stems (repros) • 19 mm hex on blinker stems • Rearview mirrors with patent number • Round hole in speedo/tach mounting rings • Repro tach and speedo cables with short knurled nuts (pretty good) • Original gauges – refurbished by Marcel (Lecram)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on January 20, 2020, 05:17:12 pm
Good luck with the sale Mark. I hope it goes to someone here who appreciates the level of work youve put into the bike. All the best, Steven.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on January 20, 2020, 07:54:10 pm
I have seen this bike in person. It is easily one of the best restorations I have ever seen.
You will miss it Mark! :)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on January 20, 2020, 08:08:35 pm
Thanks for the for the kind words guys.
You're probably right Sam. :( But I have three other projects to keep me busy. At least one of them is 3-digit. ;)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on February 10, 2020, 08:22:51 pm
I have finally decided on a price. After seeing the results at the Mecum auction and talking to several knowledgeable people I have decided on $69,000. I know some people may think I'm crazy but that's what I'm asking. If you're interested please contact me.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on February 11, 2020, 12:38:46 pm
Priced low. For a bike of this caliber restored at this level, $69k is a great deal.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: acruz on February 19, 2020, 06:58:05 pm
Mark, good luck with your sale. It is well worth your asking price and then some.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 24, 2020, 10:52:56 am
After the recent eBay auction for KP’s 2-digit sandcast I’m lowering my expectations for what I would like to get for #97. I started high for probably obvious reasons but I am lowering the price to $60,000. I will consider offers. I have three people that have expressed interest but no offers yet. If anyone is interested feel free to contact me.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on June 24, 2020, 10:54:54 am
This is one of the highest quality restorations that the community has seen, was featured in one of the world's top museums and is fabulously well-documented. It's all there folks. Someone is going to get a deal.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on June 24, 2020, 12:53:48 pm
Thanks for the endorsement Sam.
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: markb on August 12, 2020, 03:33:24 pm
She gone! :o #97 is sold and I got what I needed. It sold to a local collector which I feel good about. Also I didn’t have to mess with crating, shipping, etc. Wasn’t sure how I would feel but I can say now I’m relieved. Don’t have to worry about taking care of it. Now or later. I would have expected she would be hauled away in something a bit more befitting, but it was fine. ;D (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/20200804_183307.jpg)
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: Sam on August 12, 2020, 03:46:27 pm
Congrats Mark.
Someone got a very special bike!
Title: Re: Restoration of Sandcast #97
Post by: vnz00 on August 12, 2020, 05:24:50 pm