Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => Fuel (gas - petrol) Tanks, Side Covers and Air Box => Topic started by: markb on August 24, 2011, 05:51:43 pm
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Not sure if this is the right place to post this question but I'm trying to find out if there are any differences in early and later headlight buckets. Mine on #97 was completely smashed and I need a replacement.
Mark
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Mark
CB450 and early CB750 buckets are the same as far as I know. Not sure if the K1 bucket is the same. They have a 1 stamped on the inside and have a small hole for the wiring to go through. The later buckets have a larger rear hole. You should be OK to find one, but then one would never know about the very very very very early VINs ;)
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Where is the "1" stamp located?
Mark
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On the inside between made in Japan and the Hm logo. Located in the middle between these 2 See pics
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Thanks KP. That explains why I couldn't find it on my buckets, it wasn't there! At least on the ones I looked at, one of which is off a 3-digit. Any idea what VIN's they went up to? I have a couple to dig out and check but I'm pretty sure they're later. In case I don't fine one does anyone have one they would sell?
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Mark
I can't say with any certainty what is what but I understand sandcast bikes had a 1. I've seen 1 and 2 in these shells and my early bikes had the 1. I have also bought a few over the years with a 1 but I believe they are very hard to come by but not impossible. VW is the knowledge base on these shell numbers so maybe see if he can help
KP
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KP,
It appears from your photo that the wire hole is round. The hole in my buckets is elliptical. Is that an optical illusion or is the early hole round? If it wouldn't be too much trouble could you measure the hole for me?
Mark
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Hi Mark
Optical illusion The hole is eleptical
Here is a photo of my early VIN bucket Also has an elliptical hole
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Here's a #2 small hole shell
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KP, any idea the vin break from type "1" to type "2" buckets ?
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Here's a no number small hole shell. Go figure that lot out
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Here are the three buckets I've photographed to date. 2 are NOS the other is used. The 2 NOS buckets have 300 part numbers whilst the black bucket has the merger hole Maybe this was the change
I can't shed any light on this (no pun intended) ;D
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Here are 2 more shots of the 3 shells. :o One shot clearly shows the oval holes and the other shows the HM20 side logo Enjoy
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Good day to you Mr Swan
I actually don't have a clue about the VIN break (in fact I don't have a clue about much at all) but I'm of the understanding that all sandcast machines have the small hole buckets. Replacement buckets around late K0 and K1 seem to have a larger hole and even later buckets may have a larger hole again but I cannot be sure of this. VW told me of these numbers some years ago and I believe he may have a better understanding of this oddity KP
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is that black bucket nos ?
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Yep it is a NOS bucket One of a pair I bought some years back Both have the same part number
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Yep it is a NOS bucket One of a pair I bought some years back Both have the same part number
The reason i asked, on USA models, the black buckets began being used on 1972 or K2 models. Before that, the buckets were painted the color of the bike, i.e., K1 and earlier. i have to apologize, i'm not reading as closely this thread as i should be to be commenting....
are we saying the not black painted buckets have smaller holes AND have number designations "1" and "2" ?
To my way of thinking, the black bucket with a larger hole would not ever been fitted (or correct for restoration) on a sandcast. Prob. same would go for K0 and K1.
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i would hazard a guess the bucket with no number is the earliest bucket. the bucket with a 1 would be the next generation and the 2 bucket would be the 3rd generation.
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I made a research at ebay and there is a lot of late (black) headlight cases with no number and some with the "1" (black), the "1" type maybe from CB 450-500-550. It is difficult to declare that "1" has small hole and "2" and "no number" are big hole without measure. Someone could measure the hole sizes.
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Sorry to keep beating on this one guys but I'm getting a little confused. I have at least three buckets that are early (VIN 1553 and less) and none of them have a number. The fact that I have early buckets that aren't numbered and there seems to be plenty of numbered buckets around would make believe that early buckets were not numbered. Sometimes if there is more than one die (or multiple cavities on one die) they are numbered so if there is a molding problem it can be tracked down. If Honda started out with one die it would make sense that it wasn't numbered. Anyway I have to send out some parts for painting and want to make sure my bucket is correct. The wire holes on mine are approximately 36mm x 42mm. Does that match other known early sandcast buckets? And are numbered buckets early or later? By the way I checked the part number in the manual to see if it was a CB450 number. It was a 300 number but that could have been because it was painted.
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i would hazard a guess the bucket with no number is the earliest bucket. the bucket with a 1 would be the next generation and the 2 bucket would be the 3rd generation.
i would hazard a guess the bucket with no number is the earliest bucket. the bucket with a 1 would be the next generation and the 2 bucket would be the 3rd generation.
Attempting to determine which buckets came first, logic would suggest 1 would come before 2 and no number would come before 1.
And a good point, Mark, on the numbers being used for different dies to track manufacture origin, molding concerns. if there was only one die and no others were yet made or in use, logic would suggest no number on the 1st die and hence no number on bucket.
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I made a research at ebay and there is a lot of late (black) headlight cases with no number and some with the "1" (black), the "1" type maybe from CB 450-500-550. It is difficult to declare that "1" has small hole and "2" and "no number" are big hole without measure. Someone could measure the hole sizes.
as i said in earlier post, black bucket on usa models began in 1972, K2 models, so to my way of thinking no K1, no K0 and no sandcast would ever have used this black bucket. the black bucket is not correct for any usa models until 1972 K2.
to my way of thinking the blue-green and red buckets are the focal point of interest, as those are the only "sandcast' colors.
Black buckets are different (bigger hole for wire harness) from red and blue-green buckets and black buckets could have there own dies and very probably there own "die numbering," therefore totally separate from the earlier blue-green and red buckets. b-g and red may have been available on later 450 models, though.....
i don't know anything about 450's. but i'm pretty certain there were no candy blue-green 450's in 1969 and possibly no candy red ones either.
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Mr Swan, you are correct about the black bucket being seen from K2 onwards at least that is also my understanding. The black bucket I photographed was only included to show the number 2 and a later shot to show visually the size of the hole and the comparison between the three. The black bucket is a NOS part and not a repop from Yamiya. I had assumed the black bucket hole was the same size as the sandcast buckets I have (been stored so long I couldn't remember) but yes, the black bucket is not K0/K1. The hole size you measured Mark is same as my 2 red buckets approx 42mm x 36mm and this is a feature of all buckets on sandcast bikes. Given the regularity with which these buckets cracked I suspect many have been replaced over the years. One surprise is the number of broken and cracked buckets for sale on eBay. I wonder if people actually buy this junk
The absence of a number is not confined to early buckets however, as a quick search of eBay revealed 3 without a visible number both small hole and large hole. The reasoning for these numbers is lost on me given my early number sandcasts all had the 1 (at least those that I looked at} but I can't guarantee mine are original fitment, nevertheless, I would go with the no number if that is what was on your bikes. It would be interesting to hear from others as I'm now intrigued to know.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HONDA-CB750-1976-Vintage-Headlight-BUCKET-/261750417993?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cf18a6a49 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HONDA-CB750-1976-Vintage-Headlight-BUCKET-/261750417993?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cf18a6a49)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/69-70-CB750-Sandcast-Headlight-Bucket-A230-/291351196764?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43d5e2745c (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/69-70-CB750-Sandcast-Headlight-Bucket-A230-/291351196764?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43d5e2745c)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/69-70-CB750-Sandcast-Headlight-Bucket-A231-/291351196060?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43d5e2719c (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/69-70-CB750-Sandcast-Headlight-Bucket-A231-/291351196060?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43d5e2719c)
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Velly, velly, intellesting. :o
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i don't know anything about 450's. but i'm pretty certain there were no candy blue-green 450's in 1969 and possibly no candy red ones either.
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There definitely were candy blue-green and candy red CB450's in 1969 - identical colors to the SC. I bought a brand new, candy blue-green, CB450K2 in 1969 because I could not afford a CB750 at $1500.00. The CB450 ONLY cost $900.00 which was still a LOT of money to me. I was a lowly Honda mechanic at Pasadena Honda fresh out of high school. The lowly Honda mechanic next lift over bought a new candy red one. We raced them at the local drag strips almost every weekend for about 2 years until I was able to buy a brand new K1. I thought I had died and gone to Heaven. Ah, those were the days! ;D
i believe 69 was the year for chrome gas tank panel on 450's. b-g or red bike with chrome tank panels would be might pretty.
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Velly, velly, intellesting. :o
I agree. Very interesting stuff. That settles it then. #97 is getting a no number bucket. Thanks for all the comments.
Mark