Honda CB750 Sandcast
The Restoration Shop => VIN's => Topic started by: kp on November 01, 2011, 07:01:54 am
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Anyone know who is making the frame labels (non VIN). I was asked by a member where these are available but as I have sufficient for my needs I have lost the information on where they are sourced from. I do know there are some not so good ones out there but the type I have are the thicker and more exact labels. I know of the ones made by reproduction decals and as Mark has indicated they are a second choice but there was a supplier making a way better label. HELP 8) KP
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KP, please update the group on what serial number Honda started using these labels.
Thanks,
1941wld
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Well I'm not sure I can answer that one. I do know that there are 2 headstock labels for the US/Canada sandcast, these being an aluminum type which has no VIN or manufacturing date evident. This label is made from alloy foil but is quiet thick compared to other foil type labels. I understand that this label was used on US/Canada frames whereas other countries had a "made in japan" label affixed in lieu of the larger label. How correct this statement is I cannot be sure.
Let's call this label "Type 1"
The next label is your standard type early Honda CB750 which is a full blown VIN plate which has the frame number and month of manufacture stamped into the plate. This is a rigid aluminum plate. This plate was not seen in all countries at the same time. For example this plate was not affixed to Australian frames until around June 1972. I believe other countries had similar experiences. From what I've seen written on this Board, I believe this plate was affixed to US frames produced somewhere in September and somewhere between VIN 5000 to VIN 6000
Let's call this label/plate "Type 2"
Anyway back to your original question as to when Honda commenced placing this early label (type 1) on their frames. That is a bloody good question and one I've not thought about before. ??? I do know that my frame 969 had this label affixed.
OK members, let us have it. Al Landry's bike would be a good start given the low VIN as would be Tim from Ca.
Yep a damn good question
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#97 has a Type 1 label.
Mark
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232 has it's original (per KP, "type 1") *adhesive* label on RH steering head, as does Allan Landry's 226, as does Andy Dixon's 175. Mark would have to weigh in on 97 having a label, i'm going to say it should have an adhesive label, unless it was removed. I have seen these same "type 1" adhesive labels on smaller model, same year Hondas. I owned a lovely 900 mile original 69 CL175 that had this type 1 label.
To date, we have not seen the "type 1" adhesive label on any Sept.69 frames; only "type 2" riveted plates. I would hazard to say, every CB750 from #1 had an adhesive label, until, at least through July.69. We've asked for BB readers to write in what sort of label/plate the Aug.69 frames have, but i don't think we've had a response, yet..
Around 2002, I purchased locally, a German K1. IF i remember correctly, it's riveted vin plate was on the LH steering head, opposite USA placement...... And, it seems, the stamped vin was on the RH steering head. And the plate looked nothing like a USA ("type 2") riveted plate. If my memory is not correct, then i've got another chance to be wrong.... ;D
Chris R could weigh in on this topic, he has familiarity with these "type 2" riveted tags, both non-USA and USA.
The type 1 adhesive label is not as thick as the riveted type 2 plate, but to my way of thinking, to call the type 1 a label is sort of a "mis-description," even though i call it a label myself, to distinguish frome the later type 2 plate. If you've ever removed one of these type 1 "labels," you'll find out pretty quickly it's a pretty thick piece of "foil," really more like a plate. And not thin like the "oil" label on the RH side cover or the "exhaust" swing arm label, which are more sticker-like. sheesh, words, semantics. label, sticker, plate. whew.
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232 has it's original (per KP, "type 1") *adhesive* label on RH steering head, as does Allan Landry's 226, as does Andy Dixon's 175. Mark would have to weigh in on 97 having a label, i'm going to say it should have an adhesive label, unless it was removed. I have seen these same "type 1" adhesive labels on smaller model, same year Hondas. I owned a lovely 900 mile original 69 CL175 that had this type 1 label.
To date, we have not seen the "type 1" adhesive label on any Sept.69 frames; only "type 2" riveted plates. I would hazard to say, every CB750 from #1 had an adhesive label, until, at least through July.69. We've asked for BB readers to write in what sort of label/plate the Aug.69 frames have, but i don't think we've had a response, yet..
Around 2002, I purchased locally, a German K1. IF i remember correctly, it's riveted vin plate was on the LH steering head, opposite USA placement...... And, it seems, the stamped vin was on the RH steering head. And the plate looked nothing like a USA ("type 2") riveted plate. If my memory is not correct, then i've got another chance to be wrong.... ;D
Chris R could weigh in on this topic, he has familiarity with these "type 2" riveted tags, both non-USA and USA.
The type 1 adhesive label is not as thick as the riveted type 2 plate, but to my way of thinking, to call the type 1 a label is sort of a "mis-description," even though i call it a label myself, to distinguish frome the later type 2 plate. If you've ever removed one of these type 1 "labels," you'll find out pretty quickly it's a pretty thick piece of "foil," really more like a plate. And not thin like the "oil" label on the RH side cover or the "exhaust" swing arm label, which are more sticker-like. sheesh, words, semantics. label, sticker, plate. whew.
I agrre with Steve,
all European bike have the vin plate rivetted on LH and digits stamped on Rh.
But my experience if for KO and late.
I never seen european sandcast.
All mine sandcast have the alloy label (not thin) on the Rh.
r.
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The following sandcast vins all have the type 1 adhesive frame label: 151, 677, 1849, 2435, 3025, 4393, 4527, 5355, 5382, 5672. Marty K.
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Marty, all you need now are single digit, 2-digit, 6xxx and 7xxx sandcasts ! Only four more to go !
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Steve: It would be nice to have a complete set. Marty K.
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We didn't get sandcasts in the UK, the first UK market CB750 1010369 has a stamped in VIN on the left side of the steering neck and 'Honda Made in Japan' label on the right side......no rivetted VIN plate.....but I cannot be totally certain that the sticker is the correct type.
Mick.........kettle738
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Fellas, fellas, fellas .... please. ::) I just used the word label, type 1 and type 2 for convenience so you can call it whatever you want. 1941wld also used the term label so it was appropriate for me to respond with like. To my mind it is aluminum foil. Hey; why don't we call it an alloy decal with a large piece of tubular steel stuck to it. :o
I wasn't 100% sure about the European (non-UK) bikes but the Ozzie CB750 bikes and early UK bikes have no ID Plates in 69 & 70 nor 71 & 72for Oz if memory serves. One of the early CB750 publications has some comment on this. Nor do the Japanese domestic market bikes have a plate (could be wrong here as well but don't think so).
Talking semantics, I used the term "full blown VIN plate" as we do. But, is this riveted aluminum plate a true VIN plate? ???
But getting back to my original question, does anyone know if there is someone making this thicker type "sticker"
KP
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The Japanese (domestic) frames did not have any type of vin tag/label on their bikes only the vin stamped on the frame neck. I am pretty sure the stamping was on the left side of the frame neck, but not 100% sure, maybe 99.99% on this. Marty K.
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#5298 has the adhesive backed "no date"thin aluminium "label" on it.
#8054 has the riveted and dated VIN label on it.
UK bikes did not have the aluminium label / plate on them, certainly not up to at least the K2. just the number stamped into the left side of frame neck, and a simple "Made in Japan" sticker on the right side.
Sorry KP, can't answer your original question about where to get replacement early type "label" from!
Chris R.
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KP,
Don't know if this is the source, but this site has what looks like the best I've seen. Scroll down to item Z228.
http://hondaminitrail.com/ct70.html (http://hondaminitrail.com/ct70.html)
It's the right size and thickness and the lettering looks the same. I haven't bought one yet but I'm going to.
Mark
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Hi Mark
Yep That looks to be them and they say they are the thick material
PM sent KP
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I bought some tags so I could check them out. Here’s a couple of pics. The full size shot has the repro on the bottom. You can see that is slightly shorter than the original.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09030.JPG)
The close up has the repro on the right. You can tell that the font is slightly different especially on the o’s.
(http://cb750sandcastonly.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/DSC09031.JPG)
Overall it’s not bad but it’s not perfect. The repro appears to be a little lighter print but at least it has the right thickness and feel. I have to admit that I’m a little disappointed. I haven’t decided if it’s good enough to go on #97 or not. It doesn’t seem like it should be that hard to have someone copy the original and print out a better copy. But it’s certainly better than nothing. If you look at the repro by itself it would be hard to pick out the flaws.
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I would think the adhesive backed tin foil of the necessary thickness should be able to be sourced from somewhere, someone, someplace. A sign shop ? Manufacturer of industrial labels ? Printing supply ? These are just thoughts off the cuff.
Why couldn't an original label's font/wording be copied via computer and then the print transfered to the label ?
Seems like the big deal would be to obtain the propoer thickness label material with propoer sheen, etc.
Copying what's printed on on the lable using today's computer technology should be a piece of cake. Or, at least i would think...
Mark, i can see why you're reluctant to use one of these labels on your bike.
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Why couldn't an original label's font/wording be copied via computer and then the print transfered to the label ?
That's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm going to look into it.
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Mark. I don't think it will be difficult to find someone who will make the nameplates given you have a good sample to go by. There are lots of companies out there that do custom aluminum, stick on nameplates. I have looked at several fonts and haven't found exactly what Honda used for this plate yet. I'll keep looking. It's a narrow font, hence the "O" being fatter on the repop. They didn't quite get it bang on, ditto for the "D" and the "R". I did find a font that seemed bang on, and replacing the "O" with a zero ( 0 ) fixed the "O" problem but the "D" and the "R" remain outstanding. I'll keep looking.
I was able to reproduce exactly the font for the wiring harness part # tag. (300 - 0400) I have to order up some vinyl sheets and waterproof ink and get that out of the way. It's on my "to do" list. :)
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I would think the adhesive backed tin foil of the necessary thickness should be able to be sourced from somewhere, someone, someplace. A sign shop ? Manufacturer of industrial labels ? Printing supply ? These are just thoughts off the cuff.
Why couldn't an original label's font/wording be copied via computer and then the print transfered to the label ?
Seems like the big deal would be to obtain the propoer thickness label material with propoer sheen, etc.
Copying what's printed on on the lable using today's computer technology should be a piece of cake. Or, at least i would think...
Mark, i can see why you're reluctant to use one of these labels on your bike.
I was lucky, because i used the original, good conditions with light abrasion by the clutch cable.
I dismounted the label with an hot air-phone.
I found the very tin dual face adhesive tape in a paint shop car repair.
They use this for the re-assembling of the trim bumpers ouside the doors, after repaint.
Riccardo
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Mark. I don't think it will be difficult to find someone who will make the nameplates given you have a good sample to go by. There are lots of companies out there that do custom aluminum, stick on nameplates. I have looked at several fonts and haven't found exactly what Honda used for this plate yet. I'll keep looking. It's a narrow font, hence the "O" being fatter on the repop. They didn't quite get it bang on, ditto for the "D" and the "R". I did find a font that seemed bang on, and replacing the "O" with a zero ( 0 ) fixed the "O" problem but the "D" and the "R" remain outstanding. I'll keep looking.
I am not a forensic expert but my old, tired eyes can see differences with every character. Some of it as simple as line weight differences. "T" for example is the closest one IMO, but has line weight issues. E's, F's obvious.
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Here you go Mark. Give these guys, or a company like them a try. You can send them a scan of your original with details. I would emphasize the importance of it being exact in every way. I'll buy one if they get it right. :)
http://www.inlandproducts.com/nameplates.htm?gclid=CPKf2qqsjrMCFe5FMgod8C4Adw (http://www.inlandproducts.com/nameplates.htm?gclid=CPKf2qqsjrMCFe5FMgod8C4Adw)
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Wayne, you are MITIC!
We can do a general order if Mark sends them the original label.
I quote myself for 4 labels if they make a perfect reproduction.
Riccardo
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Hello wayne,
if we do a general order
i'm interesting in one label for my 1002749
thank you
Benji
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Why couldn't an original label's font/wording be copied via computer and then the print transfered to the label ?
That's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm going to look into it.
It costs more time to reproduce the original fonts than find a font that's quit similar. In my opinion, for real repops it's not acceptable. That's the reason that I designed every figure separately for my face plates to achieve the best repop. I am a detail freak and this reproduction hurts my eyes.
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Here is a scalable version that SoRon on the Single Over-Head Cam 4 Forums made up for me. The font seems dead on to me.
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For those who can't open PhotoShop files here's what gonzobrian posted. IMHO this still doesn't hit mark. (no pun intended) Like I said previously. An original label copied and sent to a company that does custom self adhesive labels should get us what we are looking for. :)
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Thanks Wayne. This one actually looks pretty good to me. The commas and the A's were what I noticed. I think I could run that one. But I am going to bring my tag to a local shop and see what they can do. If they can't do it I'm going to check out your recommendation.
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The leg of the "R" needs to have the curl coming to a point as well. Damn, we're a fussy bunch!! ;)
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Yes we are fussy Wayne but would we have it any other way. Certainly not with you and Mark amongst us ;) I give you 10/10 for the R point so keep it up.
As for reproducing decals/labels or whatever each country refers to them as, I was instrumental in reproducing original GTHO labels in the mid 70s here in Oz and the fellow I was in partnership with was a printer and he used to photographically reproduce the image and do a print from an original. They were 100% and I mean 100% accurate. At that time there were very limited products available to the printing industry as base material so a vinyl decal was based on a 3M product hence the copying was easy. The thick alloy film used in 1969 by Honda is just one element but the printing of an exact copy I would expect to be as simple as it was in the mid 70s
I have sent some very hard to find decals/labels to reproduction decals in Canada and they have come back 100% accurate to the original sent so maybe that is a project for someone Unfortunately I don't have an original else I would do it in an instant
KP
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I forgot about Reproduction Decals KP. I think Steve put me on to them for for something else when I first acquired 576. If I had a frame label I would certainly send it on to them as they are in London Ontario, straight up the 401 from me. Just bought my Caddy CTS there a coupe of weeks ago! :) I could have stopped in to see them. Unfortunately my label was painted over, chewed up and beaten to death!! :(
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Reproduction Decals did some reproduction work for me, side cover decals for a Yamaha, they were reproduced exactly like original.
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Mark
If they are willing to copy for you I would like one also. I did not have one to compare to but agree that one we got won't do it!
John
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I brought my label to a local shop to see about reproducing it. They kept insisting that they could find a font "real close" to the original. After asking multiple times about scanning it or photographing it they finally agreed to look into it and get back to me. They just don't get it. It's frustrating. KP, is your source in Canada Reproduction Decals? I've bought some from them and they were on a thinner plastic material. I don't have one of theirs that's not on a bike so it's a little harder to compare but is their graphics OK? Maybe I'll just buy another one.
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Yes Mark, that's them and their work is spot on generally as they continually deal with anal individuals like us. I'll send them an email if you like about the sheet material and ask again about accuracy. They also return the original decal being copied so it won't be lost to the universe.
I'll post back
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Done so will wait for a reply ;D
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I called them and asked if they could do it out of aluminum and was told no. But I was talking to the person who fills orders. I did buy one of their labels just so I could check out the graphics. It was only $6 plus shipping so I figure I might as well.
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I bought a Z1 VIN decal off them which they said was spot on. I received it and it was about 8.5 to 9 /10 so emailed them and said it was not accurate. Seems they were using a later VIN decal and just changed the manufacture date. I sent them my original and it came back 99% I say 99% cos nothing is as original as original :D
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Hey guys, did we ever go anywhere with this?
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Non you can find this label here : 7$ each one
https://hondanuts.com/Decal-Silver-Tag-Honda-CT70K0-P5915808.aspx
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Yes indeed. That info was posted by Mark and as he stated the fonts are not correct. I bought one and agreed they were good but not accurate. The one now being made by Reproduction Decals is very correct (after the spelling error was changed) and IMHO better to buy theirs than there Z50 item. I sent them an original label as the template
The only issue is the material they use is not as heavy as the original but I suppose once on the bike I doubt it will be such a big deal.
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Repro Decals makes good products. if you have a decal you want made, they'll make it or at least that was the case 10+ years ago when they made decals for my little 1965 Yamaha YG1-K Rotary Jet 80 i restored.