Honda CB750 Sandcast
General Category => French Sandcasts => Topic started by: philcad750 on November 03, 2011, 07:18:40 am
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Hi all, my name is Philippe from France. I've been registered on the site for several years. I think I spent more time on the roads with my CB750 that on the web during these last years.... I also got very busy these 5 last years. Anyway, I'm happy now to join this forum.
I've been lucky when I bought my CB750 25 years ago. It was a sandcast model from October 69 - frame #3769 motor #3869. This bike was certainly one of the first 300 CB750 sent in France by Honda Corp in 1969. I didn't restore it, just done a new paint. The original color was candy red, but I wanted it candy gold. Since the 20 last years, I've changed some parts (exhaust pipes, shock absorbers, some parts in the motor and used parts ...), but it was normal when riding thousand and thousand miles each year. As you know, this is not a problem with this bike. With some Club's members (I'm the President of the french CB750 Club), we ride at least 2 or 3000 miles per year during our outing.
We have a lot of competencies in the Club regarding CB750s in general and K0/early bikes in particular and if we can help anyone, it will be with pleasure (I think to Maurizio from Tuscany...!).
Please, find attached a pic from my bike, after a 1200 kms ride in south of France last September (the rear tyre was out of order but has been changed after the ride....).
A bientot,
Phil
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Hello and welcome Phil. Yes I do have a question from you. We are aware of a bike in France with a sandcast engine number
Please look at this bike which is located in France
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/gallery/French-Sandcast (http://cb750sandcastonly.com/gallery/French-Sandcast)
Have you seen or heard of this bike as we are very interested to know more about this bike We have been told that there is more than 1 bike like this in france but I have not been able to confirm if this is true
You may be able to help us with this mystery
KP
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Hello KP,
As you say, there is more than one sandcast bike in France with a motor number over 1007414. Personally, I know at least 5 or 6 CB750 like this, just in the Club. And most of them have a number around CB750E 10017xxx.
My explanation (this is only mine) is the following: Honda, during a short period (by the end of the year 69), should face with a lack of diecast crankcases on the CB750 production lines, due to the incredible (and not anticipated) demand of CB750 all around the world. So, I suppose that, as the subcontracting diecast crankcases manufacturers (or Honda itself) couldn't satisfy to the demand during this period, Honda decided to put on the production lines all the sandcast crankcases they have in stock during a very short time. May be this is the reason why we found here in France (why only in France ?) a lot of sandcast CB750 models over 1007414.
Anyway, I've been asked inside the Club to investigate this point and I will try to do it by contacting Honda France. I'll inform you as soon as possible.
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Phil, It's great to have you ! Welcome !
Fascinating information on the French sandcasts.
Was France one of the last countries to receive initial batches of the CB750 from Honda or did France receive machines same time as England and other countries ?
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::) what i understand is france had the "sandcast" at frame #1003495~
>:( germany got the "sandcast" from frame #1005084~
:) australia got the "sandcast" from frame #1005130~
;) the UK never had the sandcast only"CB750 " from frame #1010369~
:-* only the netherlands had the "CB750" after UK from frame #1031084~
8) and the winner is the good ole USA "sandcast"from frame #1000001~
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Phil
That is amazing information indeed. As you know of others it would be of great interest to many of us for you can get some detail of these bikes so we may include in our records. This is fascinating and a very interesting further development into the sandcast bikes located in France KP
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::) what i understand is france had the "sandcast" at frame #1003495~
>:( germany got the "sandcast" from frame #1005084~
:) australia got the "sandcast" from frame #1005130~
;) the UK never had the sandcast only"CB750 " from frame #1010369~
:-* only the netherlands had the "CB750" after UK from frame #1031084~
8) and the winner is the good ole USA "sandcast"from frame #1000001~
The information that pops up on this site truly amazes Thanks for that info Steff
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The same information was published within several of Honda's own parts list - number 1, ref no. 1334101, dated December 20, 1971 for example. Honda UK's September 10, 1977 parts list (number 4, ref. no.1434105 provides the same numbers except for France for which it suggests 1003480 as the earliest VIN.
Chris R.
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Phil, Sure hope to hear more from you about the French sandcasts ! Would be very nice to hear from the owners of these sandcasts and see pictures ! I'll send Wayne an email, asking him to create a topic titled "French Sandcasts" in the General Category section.
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::) what i understand is france had the "sandcast" at frame #1003495~
>:( germany got the "sandcast" from frame #1005084~
:) australia got the "sandcast" from frame #1005130~
;) the UK never had the sandcast only"CB750 " from frame #1010369~
:-* only the netherlands had the "CB750" after UK from frame #1031084~
8) and the winner is the good ole USA "sandcast"from frame #1000001~
I know two original Dutch CB750s, one is a late sandcast (in 7000 range), possibly a former demo bike from a dealer, licensed in January 1970 and one has a 101.... nr. This one is from March 1970.
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I asked pics to members of the Club. One of them owns 3 sandcasts over 7414: two bikes and one motor. I'll post them in the new topic 'french sandcasts' when received.
You know guys, I always been told that the 1000 first CB750 have been built in California by Honda America in 68/69. This is the reason why the numbers (frame and motors) start at 1000001 in the USA. However, french dealers and other dealers in Europe I guess, have received these early bikes (one per dealer) for demo purpose. I personally know one of this sandcast bike in France, given to Michel Rougerie (the pilot who won the first new Bol d'Or race in 69) by JAPAUTO (a famous dealer in Paris). The engine number is 1000313. The frame was interesting because we can see a steering damper fixation above the horn. The steering damper has finally never been installed by Honda on the CB750s.
According the parts list information, France received sandcasts from the frame number 1003495 in august/September 69. 543 sandcasts have been sold in 69. I suppose all the CB750 sold in France in 69 were sandcast models. I don't know when the first die cast has been sold.
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Phil,
Very good feedback. We need to have the sandcast CB750 fraternity from all over the world engaged in these topics as the information provided from all countries is invaluable to help us develop our knowledge of what occurred back in 1969. For example, I know Tom Courtney from Australia has provided valuable information to our forum on a range of topics. My understanding from Tom is that a number of bikes with numbers in the 15XX were delivered to Australia for demonstration/sales purposes and these bikes remained in the country so the delivery of the bikes numbered 5130 may be the official line but this would seem to bear no fact to reality. There was a green or gold sandcast bike floating around the UK but they say no sandcast was seen in the UK at all. Thus, we are bound to look elsewhere for the unofficial official information. Indeed, if we look at the official record, the production of sandcast cases ceased at 7414. My personal view is that the "French Sandcast" is real and a fact. Some will of course disagree as the record states otherwise.
Please keep the dialogue going as I and others are excited at what you have to share :) KP
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Phil, perhaps you've heard of Bob Jameson and Bob Hansen. Some information on these two mens' involvement with the CB750 beginning 1967, can be found in the website under the "2009 Meet" section.
Bob Hansen sent Bob Jameson and Bob Young to Japan in 1968. At the 2009 meet, a number of us SOOC members met personally Bob Jameson (then age 80) and Bob Hansen (then age 90.) Bob Hansen's association with Honda began 1959. Bob H was invited to visit Honda Japan in 1967 and during his visit, while at dinner, gave Sochiro Honda the idea to build a 4 cyl, not a 650cc 2 cyl as was being planned.
While in Japan, during March 1969, Bob Jameson watched and was present when the #1 machine was built, not on an assembly line, but on the floor by a very excited group of Japanese engineers. Bob J was in Japan for more than 30 days, test rode the #1 bike (among others.) Bob J had very interesting stories of seeing the manufacture of parts and the building of motorcycles following the #1 CB750. I've not had the privilege of meeting Bob Young who was in Japan during that period for over 6 months.
Somewhere in the website and/or on youtube, there is a link to the one hour presentation these men gave on Friday, Saturday and Sunday of the meet.
I talked with with Bob Jameson and Bob Hansen as much as i could over the 3 days of the meet. They both said every CB750 was built in Japan, not in the USA.
That steering damper gusseting is certainly interesting, it's on a number of members early vins.
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Steve, thanks for the information regarding the fact that every CB750 has been built in Japan. I have to check this with the guy who told me the first CB750s were manually built in California.
You mentioned Bob Hansen in your mail. Do you know the story of the CR750 which won Daytona race drived by Dick Mann in '70 ? In 2003, it seems Bob has confirmed that this CR, located in France where it has been restored is the right one. But there is still a lot of discussion about it. Frame and many parts will be the good ones, not all of them. See the following link : http://www.daytona70.com/English/history.htm (http://www.daytona70.com/English/history.htm)
Regarding the sandcast numbers over 7414, please have a look on these 3 pics :
1 bike : Frame #1017272 - Engine #1017417
1 bike : Frame #1017109 - Engine #1014170
1 engine #1017135
Digits types are the same on the three engines. So it seems these numbers have been engraved in the Honda factory.
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Phil, thanks for sharing those Evins. Indeed, they ARE impressive. The font certainly appears Honda !
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Phil, Thanks for thos photographs and the link to the story of the CR750. I would ask if the owners of those unique bikes could send me some complete photographs so I migh post them into the gallery, or better still on their own page
KP
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Hi KP, all the pics have been sent by one member of the Club. I've asked him to sent me more photographs of his sandcast bikes. I've also asked him to join the SOOC. You know, he has been a famous GP pilot in the years 70/80. And he's still a great pilot. His name is Guy Bertin. If you want to see him in action on a race track on his racing CB750 (built by himself from a CB750 K2), take a moment and have a look to this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o5n_Pc-BT0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o5n_Pc-BT0#)
Impressive no ? All the other motorcycles in the video are racing GP motorcycles. The last but one he passes is a Yamaha OW31...
I also asked to others members to send me photographs of their 'french sandcasts'.
Can you please move the posts regarding this topic to the new topic 'french sandcasts' ? Thks.
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hello Philippe
welcome on the SOOC
it's fantastic forum where you can learn many info about the sandcast
i've meet you in monthlery in "les coupe moto légende" 10 years ago
next time when you come in south of france you are welcome..
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Phil, Sure hope to hear more from you about the French sandcasts ! Would be very nice to hear from the owners of these sandcasts and see pictures ! I'll send Wayne an email, asking him to create a topic titled "French Sandcasts" in the General Category section.
Dear ALL,
My Father got in 03/70 a cb750 brand new in candy ruby red in the range 1014XXX with sandcast case ( unfortunately we haven't got photo where we can see in detail the crankcase.
but i confirm to you this info
regard
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Phil, Sure hope to hear more from you about the French sandcasts ! Would be very nice to hear from the owners of these sandcasts and see pictures ! I'll send Wayne an email, asking him to create a topic titled "French Sandcasts" in the General Category section.
Dear ALL,
My Father got in 03/70 a cb750 brand new in candy ruby red in the range 1014XXX with sandcast case ( unfortunately we haven't got photo where we can see in detail the crankcase.
but i confirm to you this info
regard
Could be this bike Benjxt. PM me the actual VIN and I will confirm :o KP
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Hello KP
i Know this french cb750 sandcast the owner try to sold her few year ago
it's not the cb of my DAD
3 months after his purchase in 06/70 he broke the chain who broke the crankcase honda has change under waranty he give it new cases but it was a diecast unstamped engine number
he sold the cb in 71 to a man who crash the motorbike in the le mans track!
and he buy a used cb750 1970 a goldie from 08/70 with VIN 103.... (in diecast )
but thanks for your help
ps:
i'll try to scan all the documents about the first sandcast arrived in france ( magazines)
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Wayne has built a "French Sandcast" topic under General Categories.
Thanks, Wayne !
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Steve, is it possible to move the previous discussions regarding the 'french sandcasts' to the new topic created by Wayne ?
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Yes, we'll "git 'r done."
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Great video Phil. Really enjoyed watching it ;D KP
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Hi Welcome Phill, And Thankyou for your very interesting post,
about 20 years ago i had a phone call from a gentleman from near Wagga Wagga country New South Wales telling me that he had a Sandcast in the 1014xxx range and i said to him, it couldn't be as they finished
at 10074xx, He got very angry with me about this and and finished the call.... So who knows there may be one in Australia too, i only spoke to him the once and dismissed it as a mistaken id of a Sandcast....
On another point i once owned a CB750 from 1969 it's vin and engine was CB750-1007489 CB750E-1007548 i bought it from the second owner who told me that it was sold New in Melbourne Victoria by a Honda dealler who could not get any bikes from Honda Australia and bought a number of new CB750's in France in their winter and had them air freighted to Australia and sold them at a very high price in our summer.
I spoke to the original owner of this Diecast bike and he told me it came from France New with some others and confirmed the story... It was still fitted with a KPH speedo, he was still embarrased about how much he paid for it and would not tell me the price he paid, i told him not to worry as we are paying lots more today than whatever he had paid. Best Regards Tom
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However, french dealers and other dealers in Europe I guess, have received these early bikes (one per dealer) for demo purpose. I personally know one of this sandcast bike in France, given to Michel Rougerie (the pilot who won the first new Bol d'Or race in 69) by JAPAUTO (a famous dealer in Paris). The engine number is 1000313. The frame was interesting because we can see a steering damper fixation above the horn. The steering damper has finally never been installed by Honda on the CB750s.[/color]
Maurizio, what you did! :-\ :-\ :-\
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I've been lucky when I bought my CB750 25 years ago. It was a sandcast model from October 69 - frame #3769 motor #3869. This bike was certainly one of the first 300 CB750 sent in France by Honda Corp in 1969. I didn't restore it, just done a new paint. The original color was candy red, but I wanted it candy gold.
Phil, the Gold is a great color, with gold stripes is Very Cool, i love it and i reserved it for my 4th cb750(low vin but diecast).
You're re-welcome.
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This was extremely interesting! I have come across blank replacement cases before. This make sense about them using up inventory to meet demand. No manufacturer is going to tell them "They'll have to wait".
I got to know Bob Hanson years ago and he told me some interesting tales about how it came about.
When I've got time I'll write up my memories. I last saw him in San Diego a year ago. He was frail but remebered me.
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I read that the Dutch CB 750 is from 103****, but thats not thru (I now that the books tell so !) but...................................
, i own a origanal CB 750 (origanal Dutch papers) with a much lower number !
With matching numbers.
I also own a CB 750 with vin 1009***, matching numbers (but thats not a Dutch bike of origan, its importet from the states to the Netherlands ;D).
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Johnboy, interesting information. Are you referring to sandcast CB750's ? If so, could you provide some more details ?
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O,sorry, no its not a sandcast its a verry early diecast, but wit a lower number than the bookes say.
For the Netherlands its suppost to be a number higher than 103**** but i own a bike with a lot lower number than that.
And i also own other bikes, one has a number starting with 1009*** its a USA import-bike, i did buy this bike in the states and take it to the Netherlands last jear.
It neads restoration, it has matching numbers starting with 1009*** that means its a verry earley diecast-bike.
Its from 10/69.
I do own more Honda CB bikes, from 125 twin to the CB 750 '69 (and 3x K0 '70, and K 1 '71 and CB 750 K2 '72).
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Hi all, my name is Philippe from France. I've been registered on the site for several years. I think I spent more time on the roads with my CB750 that on the web during these last years.... I also got very busy these 5 last years. Anyway, I'm happy now to join this forum.
I've been lucky when I bought my CB750 25 years ago. It was a sandcast model from October 69 - frame #3769 motor #3869. This bike was certainly one of the first 300 CB750 sent in France by Honda Corp in 1969. I didn't restore it, just done a new paint. The original color was candy red, but I wanted it candy gold. Since the 20 last years, I've changed some parts (exhaust pipes, shock absorbers, some parts in the motor and used parts ...), but it was normal when riding thousand and thousand miles each year. As you know, this is not a problem with this bike. With some Club's members (I'm the President of the french CB750 Club), we ride at least 2 or 3000 miles per year during our outing.
We have a lot of competencies in the Club regarding CB750s in general and K0/early bikes in particular and if we can help anyone, it will be with pleasure (I think to Maurizio from Tuscany...!).
Please, find attached a pic from my bike, after a 1200 kms ride in south of France last September (the rear tyre was out of order but has been changed after the ride....).
A bientot,
Phil
the 1st post from Phillipe....
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Also, there is another Frenchman, his forum name is PIERRE1955, he has not made any posts i am aware of.
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Hi Mr swan!
Page #2 of this post
i confirm also the existence of sandcast after the sandcast
My Father buy a new cb750 (in march 1970) range 1 14XX with sandcast case
this bike was
with double cut front fender and wrinkle tank i assume at 100%
i have picture of this bike from 1970
regard
Benjamin
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Benjamin, thanks for sharing. i hope you stay involved and participate in the threads active at this time.
if you got to the thread, "The Sandcast after The Sandcast... A myth?? No, just a reality!!" you'll see some really great and fascinating posts and pictures. if you could share pictures of your 14xxx sandcast,that would be great.
also, we have another thread, "DATE CODES," would be very interesting to see what dates codes are on various parts of your sandcast.
does your sandcast have a wrinkle tank ? what color is the plastic horn body ?
Can you tell us history on your 14xxx bike ? when did your father purchase the bike ? Who was the dealer ? where was the dealer located ?