Honda CB750 Sandcast

PP Brighton Bike to be auctioned in UK..On Facebook spotted by James Harrington

ashimotok0 · 114 · 15957

4pots1969

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Look carefully at this picture... :o :o
If it's not a pre-production model then what is it? You will notice the contradiction between the master cylinder with its flexible brake hose, the cap of the oil tank and the bracket of the engine which correspond well to a model of pre-production... And if you look good you also see that the plastics of the turn signals also correspond to the pre production ...

That's why I think there were two Candy Gold pre-production bikes... ??? ???
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 08:42:42 am by 4pots1969 »


ashimotok0

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Look carefully at this picture... :o :o
If it's not a pre-production model then what is it? You will notice the contradiction between the master cylinder with its flexible brake hose, the cap of the oil tank and the bracket of the engine which correspond well to a model of pre-production... And if you look good you also see that the plastics of the turn signals also correspond to the pre production ...

That's why I think there were two Candy Gold pre-production bikes... ??? ???

Not sure but if you look on here at ChrisR's story,  then the M/Cyl was changed in the UK for flat bars when sold and obviously on the auction bike has been swapped back to high bars at some stage. Pretty sure when Chris reads all this he can comment with far more authority than the likes of me  though ;)


4pots1969

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Oh yes, if some parts have been changed by the English, there it changes everything ...
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 09:36:18 am by 4pots1969 »


Steve Swan

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http://online.handh.co.uk/m/view-auctions/catalog/id/83/

I wonder if  the green PP bike was  the one featured in this 1969 edition of BBC TV Programme  'Wheelbase' (a forerunner to 'Top Gear' ) Lord Denbigh the 1st owner of CGU 7H  was on the programme and I believe Alf Briggs of Honda UK was possibly riding the bike. It was broadcast on 28th February 1969.  Evidently the bike was previously shown in Holland with strict instructions not to run the engine but when it arrived in the UK,  Alf started and rode it (this could be Honda folklore though for all I know ...I read it in a book). Alf Briggs was a respected member of Honda UK and ran the Service Department in Nottingham in the 1960's  and a close friend of Mr. Honda since the very early 1960's.

The German bike featured was a Munch Mammoth .





Ash, what you write of the green late p-p is very interesting.  boy!! if you could find more information, if that 1969 film is available, any other writings of the day, that would be quite something if you were able to verify that bike was the green one.  that is the only bike of the four late p-p bikes not accounted for. 

I am pretty sure the BBC will have wiped the tape Steve but I will make investigations. It's interesting that Lord Denbigh was on the programme. It was filmed at the Lord Montagu of Beaulieu Estate I believe. Perhaps if I ask David Silver, he can get his buddy James May, who presents for the BBC to ask  if there is any trace or info. Worth a shot ...  I will keep you posted.


Ha ha Steve ..you were named as Steve Shaw in this :D






i never did want to be steve swan...


Steve Swan

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Look carefully at this picture... :o :o
If it's not a pre-production model then what is it? You will notice the contradiction between the master cylinder with its flexible brake hose, the cap of the oil tank and the bracket of the engine which correspond well to a model of pre-production... And if you look good you also see that the plastics of the turn signals also correspond to the pre production ...

That's why I think there were two Candy Gold pre-production bikes... ??? ???

Not sure but if you look on here at ChrisR's story,  then the M/Cyl was changed in the UK for flat bars when sold and obviously on the auction bike has been swapped back to high bars at some stage. Pretty sure when Chris reads all this he can comment with far more authority than the likes of me  though ;)

i agree with your observations Ash.  And also because Bob Jameson said there were 4 bikes, he saw them all, and he rode them.



kp

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Look carefully at this picture... :o :o
If it's not a pre-production model then what is it? You will notice the contradiction between the master cylinder with its flexible brake hose, the cap of the oil tank and the bracket of the engine which correspond well to a model of pre-production... And if you look good you also see that the plastics of the turn signals also correspond to the pre production ...

That's why I think there were two Candy Gold pre-production bikes... ??? ???

And no "Made in Japan" on points cover
Yabba Dabba KP



Steve Swan

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Look carefully at this picture... :o :o
If it's not a pre-production model then what is it? You will notice the contradiction between the master cylinder with its flexible brake hose, the cap of the oil tank and the bracket of the engine which correspond well to a model of pre-production... And if you look good you also see that the plastics of the turn signals also correspond to the pre production ...

That's why I think there were two Candy Gold pre-production bikes... ??? ???

And no "Made in Japan" on points cover

i think the pictures i posted of various periodicals clearly support covers on late p-p bikes were not stamped "Made in Japan."

The question is, have these un-stamped covers been found on any production sandcasts?  In particular, have these covers been found on production sandcasts believed to be unmolested or relatively unmolested?

Gerard's un-stamped covers, purchased from a Honda dealer, in their factory wrappers, are without any doubt, intriguing.  We know we have found parts typically seen on early vins on later vins.  in my opinion, a really good example was of frame 1865 having the gusseting for what we believe may have been intended for a steering damper.  Typically, it seems this gusset was commonly seen on vins under 1000 and almost always seen on vins under 500, and began not commonly seen on vins greater than 1000, however Rick Hahn noted frame 1588 has this gusset.   In any event, these observations support our belief the factory fitted what parts they had available at the assembly line, irrespective of a particular vin range.  Carrying this logic to the case of Gerard's covers, it would seem entirely reasonable the factory sent these un-stamped covers to dealers for retail sale.  Gerard's covers make that assumption entirely probable.  KP also suggested perhaps these un-stamped covers were intended for a non-USA market.  As KP also noted, we don't know.  It is not unreasonable to postulate the possibility of one of these un-stamped covers could have been fitted to a production machine on the assembly line.  What we need is to find one of these covers on a production motorcycle.


bojje

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Hi my friends!
After reading about pointcovers without ”Made in Japan” I checked the cover at my #24/43. I havent seen it before but it doesnt have the stamp. Now we know at least bikes up to that VIN didnt have the stamp. As I can see on #24/43 it looks as it have not fell any time so I expect the dented (small dents) cover to be original.
I’ve also made a full dismount of #4091/3653 today. It has both front engine mount bolts (M 10 with 14 mm head) with small ”8”. It also has a brakehosejunction without guide but longnecked brakehoses.
Tomorrow I will pick-up enginecases for E43 from glassballblasting. Soon the rebuild of it starts.
Very interesting with the golden #2110. We will see what happends at end of auction.
Kind Regards, Bo from Sweden.


Steve Swan

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Hi my friends!
After reading about pointcovers without ”Made in Japan” I checked the cover at my #24/43. I havent seen it before but it doesnt have the stamp. Now we know at least bikes up to that VIN didnt have the stamp. As I can see on #24/43 it looks as it have not fell any time so I expect the dented (small dents) cover to be original.
I’ve also made a full dismount of #4091/3653 today. It has both front engine mount bolts (M 10 with 14 mm head) with small ”8”. It also has a brakehosejunction without guide but longnecked brakehoses.
Tomorrow I will pick-up enginecases for E43 from glassballblasting. Soon the rebuild of it starts.
Very interesting with the golden #2110. We will see what happends at end of auction.
Kind Regards, Bo from Sweden.

Bo, thank you for posting your sharing that E43 has an un-stamped cover.  considering that cover is so prone to damage, it is amazing it is still on the engine.  Gerard is correct in his assumption production models could have un-stamped covers from the factory.  Now we know they do.  I have learned something.  The wonderful thing about looking for and finding these distinctions is that not only do we learn something, and disprove what we think is true, it also increases our body of knowledge.  Now what would be fun is to find the highest vin with an un-stamped cover.  Considering these covers were perishable, it is one of those investigations that may not reveal as much as we would like to learn.

Bo, it would be helpful if you can catalog the distinctions you are finding on your machines.  i hope you are able to do that and share them with us.


4pots1969

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Quote from Steve:

Gerard, i would agree with you, there is a possibility acorn hex head bolts may have been fitted for attaching starter covers on early production machines.  And there is a possibility un-stamped points covers may have been fitted to early production machines.  All i am asking for is evidence these parts are found on production machines.  It would be great if owners of these early vins can share these details.  To date, i am not aware of any evidence these parts were fitted to production machines.

Steve, you have your answer...;)
Like what it is useful to dig up old topic because it allows to obtain answers...::)
Many thanks to Bo from Sweden for this valuable information :) ;)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 06:33:30 pm by 4pots1969 »


Steve Swan

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Quote from Steve:

Gerard, i would agree with you, there is a possibility acorn hex head bolts may have been fitted for attaching starter covers on early production machines.  And there is a possibility un-stamped points covers may have been fitted to early production machines.  All i am asking for is evidence these parts are found on production machines.  It would be great if owners of these early vins can share these details.  To date, i am not aware of any evidence these parts were fitted to production machines.

Steve, you have your answer...;)
Like what it is useful to dig up old subjects because it allows to obtain answers...::)

Yes indeed, Gerard!  Thank you for resurrecting this old topic!  Good stuff!


DW69K0

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Bo,
Curious, Does 24 happen to have acorn hex bolts on the starter cover? Would love to know if they were ever used in production.
Best,
Duane


4pots1969

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If Bo could post one or two photos of this un-stamped cover, it would be concrete proof for alls that there have been some bikes with these covers... (At least one bike ;D ;D :D)

Quite frankly, I can not wait to see this cover on this engine in its original context...:o :o
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 05:31:55 am by 4pots1969 »