Honda CB750 Sandcast Forum
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Author Topic: "CB750" v.s. "K0"  (Read 5071 times)
Steve Swan
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« on: February 18, 2010, 08:12:03 PM »

Must give thanks to Eli !

Here's another topic to bat around.

To the BEST of my knowledge, during the "early" days; i.e., 1969, 1970 - Honda NEVER referred to the 750 as anything BUT the "CB750".

During 1969 - 1970, the term "K0" was not part of the Honda model classification nomenclature. I am not sure the term "K0" was ever used until perhaps about 1976 ?

However - Honda DID & DOES use the term"K0".

The EARLIEST reference i have found by Honda to use the term "K0" is in a Honda Parts Bulletin dated April 1, 1976, reguarding "Application of Head Gaskets." This official Bulletin reads, "For CB750E-100001 TO CB750E-2352922 (K0-mid K4), order head gasket H/C 40149, P/N 12020-300-305."

I have not found the term "K0" in ANY earlier Honda literature, however i would not be so foolish nor bold to say the term "K0" was NOT used by Honda before this date.

I DO know, the 3 Honda Parts Manuals i own, print dates, 7.69, 2.71 & 1.74 - EACH have NO mention of a "K0" model designation.

Later Honda literature in the 80's, 90's and the Honda website give reference to the model "K0" designation.

FOR TOPICS, AS ACKNOWLEDGED IN THIS THREAD - AND OTHER THREADS OF THIS bb - THIS IS WHERE IT WOULD REALLY BE NICE IF PEOPLE "AUTHORITIES" WHO HAVE THE DIRECT EXPERIENCE, FAMILIARITY, EXPOSURE & CONNECTIONS TO THESE BIKES, THE LITERATURE AND THE INDUSTRY'S PEOPLE WOULD PARTICIPATE IN & CONTRIBUTE TO THE S.O.O.C. FOR THE POSTERITY OF THE "SANDCAST." "AUTHORITY'S" - I AM ASKING YOU - THIS ONE TIME - TO NOT REMAIN ANONYMOUS - FOR THE SAKE OF THE "SANDCAST."

IF A CLOAK OF "AUTHORITATIVE ANONYMITY" IS MAINTAINED - IN 100 YEARS - WHO WILL KNOW WHAT A "CB750 SANDCAST" IS - OR THE PEOPLE DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED IN 1969 WITH THE CB750 ? CERTAINLY NOBODY ALIVE, I KNOW OF TODAY !
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elisent
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 08:12:54 PM »

My only knowledge of KO is the same book and passage. I will pass this site off to a friend of mine whos family still owns one of the earliest Honda dealerships. (1958) I'll try to get his dads take on this. The dad was an Indian dealer that after their demise became a Honda dealer. They are still very active especially in old bikes. Steve, You being an old Indian four guy might know Bob Markey from Etters ,Pa. I had a great conversation with him this summer at the White Rose meet. He had some great stories about meeting Mr. Honda, visiting the factory in the 60s and his dealings with Honda in the old days. Eli
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736cc
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 08:13:19 PM »

When you buy parts at Honda and refer to microfische, the 69/70 model is officially "CB750". 1971 model is "CB750K1". American Honda does not officially refer to ""K0" or "Ko" (note the use of "k-zero" or "k-oh" ANOTHER bit of confusion. And thats an interesting way to find deals on eBay: search CB750K0 and CB750Ko along w/ CB750k - not many others are looking there so bargains pop up in semi-secret  but now THAT "cats out of the bag"). The 77/78 models I think are "CB750K" but not sure. Serial # on frames pinpoint the model; the official year can vary back and forth w/ no rhyme or reason . You can re-title 1970 titles to read 1969 simply by dealing w/ a title company.
While on this subject, note that sandcasts and early diecasts came titled as either 1969 or 1970. And some late serial # K1's (serial # over 100,000) came titled as either 1971 or 1972. All this "floating" sorta like 1964 1/2 Mustangs, or buying a car in Fall of 2004, it comes titled as a 2005. And while we're at it AGAIN, the weight of vehicle on papers can vary, too. 480 lbs the norm but I've seen other #'s because owners write whatever they want or guess.
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Honda CB750 Sandcast Forum
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 08:13:19 PM »

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Steve Swan
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 08:13:32 PM »

Chris Rushton writes -

"Concerning references to the K0, I would suggest that at the time (1969-1970) there would be no need to refer to the CB750 as a K0. Only when the K1 was released would there of been a need to find another way of describing the earlier bikes, which then seems to have stuck. HOWEVER, here in the UK there was a recognised K0 model. I have attached a page from a Honda UK publication of the early 1970's giving the information which we (in the UK) have always used to define a true K0."
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chrisnoel
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 08:14:08 PM »

Prior to the CB750 other models did have the designation K0 such as the CB450. I think early in production of the 750 they didn't call it a K0 untill they were sure they would produce future 750's. I'm sure by the time they started die casting the motors they were looking forward to producing the bike in future years. This is probably when they decided the k0 designation was necessary in order to plan for the k1, 2, and so on. They might not have went through the trouble of naming it the K0 for a number of years but the mier existance of the K1 makes this a given in my mind.
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tom
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 08:14:39 PM »

Hi from Australia. The CB750 K0 Has always had some misunderstandings.. In the US market CB750 went to VIN AND ENGINE Nos CB750-1044649 CB750E-1044805 in US service bulletins refured to as pre-K1..Now this is where the trouble started In the US Market The K1 was introduced at CB750-1044650... In Other markets around the world the K1 was introduced later...Here in OZ we got K1's at VIN CB750-1054244...These bikes were in all other markets than the US with VIN's from CB750-1044650 to CB750-1054243 Here in OZ and later in some markets, True K0's These where a transition model they had all CB750 pre K1 fittings EXCEPT THE CARBS were the K1 LINKAGE TYPE. these bikes were refered to here as a K0, I have seen these in the Aussie, UK and Jap markets and may be others. Hope this throws some light on this very confusing point. at around 10k production a rare bird...
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Steve Swan
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 08:15:20 PM »

Posted by Steve "Guest"

 you the man tom

that is the way i see it also ,  here in the UK there where only about 36 of the so called k0 models sold
the only people who refer to the k0 over here are shop nerds and geeks  who now nowt bout bikes
as you know the yanks murdered the English language so why not Japanese aswell 

they also had the same black plastic air box as the k1s apart from that there is no difference it is the frame numbers that confuse things, i think the japs used the parts that where available at the time ,too add fuel too the fire i have seen a k1 that is exactly like the cb750 with the four cable carbs plastic clocks and air-box but it had a very early k1 frame number , i saw it as a cb750 no question about it but a vjmc guru insisted it was a k1 simply because of the fame number there is surely as too be some overlap of these models  so is this the case also with the sandcast models 
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tomswift99
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 08:15:56 PM »

Been doing some research on the early CB750... the "K" refers to the "version" or "revision"... thus, the early model can be referred to as simply "CB750", while later models are dubbed "K1" instead of "revision 1"

More interesting to me was the meaning of "CB"... this was first used on a 125 twin, back about 1960. Not sure what the Japanese words were, but the translation was "combustion bicycle", thus "CB"

Let's hope the real translation meant "fuel burning 2-wheeler" as this sounds much more macho
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steff750
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 08:16:33 PM »

 Wink  i did read somewhere the cb means its a gt (grande tourer )version of that type of model as opposed too cd (deluxe model)but saying that the only real differance is that cb is multi-carbs ,and cd is single carb, i did see this in cb and cd 125s also cb and cd175s
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mrmumm
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 05:37:12 PM »

In speaking with Bob Hansen and Bob Jameson about this question...they, nor myself ever heard anyone at AHM (American Honda Motor Company) refer to the CB750 as a.. KO. I believe this came later from the parts department and is used with all designations of the first model runs, on all Honda including Trail 70's, Z50'S, etc. I was mechanic when bike first came out at local Honda dealership and attended one of the first Schools at Honda training center in Racine, WI. Bob Hansen was the man who told Mr Honda not to build a CB750 TWIN. Bob Jameson was instructor at Honda school in Racine and was in Japan when the FIRST production CB750 was built.

Mark McGrew
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Steve Swan
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 06:56:46 PM »

Mark, it is great to hear from you.

For those of you who don't know who Mark McGrew is..........  Were it not for Mark, it is completely likely neither Bob Hansen or Bob Jameson would have been present under the Sandcast/K0 Only Classic Club tent at the 2009 AMA VMD.

Mark McGrew, Bob Hansen and Bob Jameson can be seen on Saturday, July 25, 2009 at
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tomcourtney
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 06:58:57 AM »

I have modified this post Thanks, Tom
Hi from Australia. The CB750 K0 Has always had some misunderstandings.. In the US market CB750 went to VIN AND ENGINE Nos CB750-1044649 CB750E-1044805 in US service bulletins refered to as pre-K1..Now this is where the trouble started.
In the US Market The K1 was introduced at CB750-1044650...
In Other markets around the world the K1 was introduced later...
Here in OZ we got K1's at VIN CB750-1054244...
i believe these bikes were in markets other than the US.
I dont believe there were a lot of these made as the vast majority of bikes were shipped to the US as K1's.
Bikes with VIN's between CB750-1044650 to CB750-1054243 Here in OZ and later in some other markets are True K0's.
These where a transition model they had all CB750 pre K1 fittings including the painted airbox, EXCEPT THE CARBS were the K1 LINKAGE TYPE. and had twin throtle cables these bikes were refered to here as a K0, I have seen these in the Aussie, UK and Jap markets and may have been in other markets to.
 Hope this throws some light on this very confusing point.
I have changed my original post TC
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I sold my first Sandcast and regretted it till I bought it back 6958/7149, its taken a few years to get a couple more 6946/7169, and 4658/4513.and E6956
Riccardo
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2010, 06:14:19 PM »

Yes, i know well this story.

The transition model was called K0.

About 8000 bikes was transition model, in part CB750 and in part K1.

I've read about k0 on Japanese Classic Bike book, publishied in Italy by Giorgio Nava, editor of the my friend and writer Giorgio Sarti.

An interessant book.

Riccardo

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Riccardo
Your Italian friend.
737/940 Restored
1081/1362 Preserved
1256/665 Restored - ex Owner: Chris R.
10253/10315 (K0) Next project
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III low ign cover - Restored
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III high ign cover - Restored
1971 - Kawasaki H1A - Restored
1973 - Kawasaki H1D - Preserved
1973 - Kawasaki Z1 Blackhead - Restored
1971 - Norton Commando SS - Preserved
1978 - Honda CBX - Unmolested Museum Quality
1988 - Honda CB 400SS - Unmolested
1997 - BMW R80 GS Basic - blue frame - Museum Quality
2007 - BMW HP2 Megamoto - blue frame - New
markb
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2011, 03:10:16 PM »

Does anyone refer to their sandcast as a K0?  I know it might not be totally correct but I call my early diecast a K0 but never refer to sancasts as K0's.
Mark
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Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 current project Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 next project
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 next project after that
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 next project after that
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored
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kmb69
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 09:51:52 PM »

Ditto, Mark. I always refer to my Sandcasts as such and Post SC's but Pre K1's as K0's. I never heard or read the K0 designation being used back in the day. Pre K1's were just referenced as CB750. Even though the SC's and K0's share many parts, I like to think the Sandcasts are VERY SPECIAL and deserve proper recognition. I also like using the K0 designation to give that group of bikes their just recognition as well.

Keith
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