More and more surprising!! VIN-1014046/E-1014138

[Steve Swan]

FOUND IT !!!!  factory altered vin - http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php?topic=342.0

if you enlarge the photos, the alterations are the same.  an "X" over altered number and a diamond with a cross inside under the altered number.  and the 'replacement' number on top of altered number.  i suggest more proof why Marty (or anyone) could not buy vin stamps from Honda. 

i would need hard factual evidence to be convinced "French sandcast" vins are not factory authentic.

[DW69K0]

Can anyone answer my question on the difference in the cast characters of the rear stampings in the picture that shows E-1017118?
Both my engines only have the two digit date and the E1 on the top case but the "T" was not on the earlier cases, so when did it start to appear?
Can someone with an engine cast at a later date than June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....?

Thanks,
Duane

[kp]

Great discussion 

[4pots1969]

Hello,

I have the conviction that these modifications of figures made on crankcases were made by the factory Honda and that they are authentic.

As I have the conviction that this engine Sandcast after period is as well authentic, and no matter as they have aterri in France, In North Pole, where even on the Moon... To push away them would be a total nonsense!!

I think so very sincerely that if this Sandcasts was of origin Japan or the USA this post would not exist, where then not like that..
There would be certainly fewer reluctances on behalf of certain menbers...It is a real pity!!
In France we say that it is a stone thrown in some quiet water..

And I am persuaded that there is others somewhere else, and the fact of lifting this "problem" on this very good forum will allow us to locate them soon because I think that stormy debate is going to return more attentive people..
Certain advanced suppositions not CBman is extravagant and they give me to smile..  But it is already that!!

I do not understand everything and I cannot regrettably answer has all the answers due to the lack of speed because I have big gaps with the English language and I regret!!

Sincere thanks has all for the interest which you carry has this very fascinating subject!!


Gérard.G

[cb7504]

Steve i also know for fact that Honda did/does track where there vin/vehicles go. While in Japan i bought a U.S. model CB750 K0 from a U.S. service man. When i went to register and plate the bike the Japanese inspector looked up the vin in their directory and said U.S. export, ok.  Marty K. 

[Steve Swan]

Gerard, i'm glad you contribute and i hope you continue to contribute.  in my thinking, there is no reason to doubt the French sandcasts are authentic.  we just don't have enough information to answer so many questions we have about how interesting these French sandcasts are.  looking at another thread on the French sandcasts, i see we have several known to exist.  it would be nice to have a section in the VIN Directory to list all known French sandcast Fvins and Evins.

And, Marty, thanks again for your reply.  it only makes completes sense factory would keep vin records.  if we had factory records, we would know the provenance of the French sandcasts.

[CBman]

Sorry Guys, my name is John.
Steve, I didn´t write there are unstamped cases, but only that many engines (by my opinion) are not originaly stamped from Honda factory production. I respect you as a CB750 expert, but lets look at the VINs:
1. E-1014143 does look like Honda font, but from detail it is not. Just compere it with French Sandcast E-1017118, these fonts are different in detail.
2. E-1017199  number 9 is not Honda font. Also the surface was just grinded by someone, so hardly could be original.
3. E-1014170 I know the engine numbers were not in perfect line, but this one is really stamped very badly. Please note, that Honda at
begining of 1970 was able to stamp the engine numbers nearly perfectly (not so chaotic like on first Sandcasts), so these VINs are strange for me.
4. 4 of 8  engines have not correct frame, or were replaced.

and for 5. Still nobody has theory for special clutch cover......... Why to make special clutch cover for few units of "french sandcasts"  

It is everybody decision if to believe or not. But for me there is too much obscurity, my sorry to owners.

[kp]

Hi John
Good arguments but I cannot agree. The 9 on all engines is same as Honda and same for both. As for lining up etc. Notice the distance between the C and B in CB. This one area where engines can and do differ I find nothing unusual there The lining up of fonts can vary and doesn't surprise me. When the diecast engines were made they had a border around the VIN pad thus making stamping numbers that much more accurate.
We can navel gaze at this all day, week, month decade but in the end one must believe or not believe (maybe a don't know is really the answer). We can't say with any certainty why this part was used or why that feature is a little different to another. I cannot put hand on heart and say the first diecast engine was 7415 or the last sandcast was 7414. I have to believe it is so but nobody has ever come up with either motor so how do we know it's correct
I choose to believe in the French Sandcasts as original Honda product. Why? I canna answer that Jimmy KP

[DW69K0]

Asking for clarification-
The earlier sandcast engines only have the two digit date and E1 on the back of the top case but the "T" was not on the earlier cases, so why is it on these cases? When did it start to appear? Where theses cases cast at a different factory or different time period?

Was the "T" used for replacement cases sent to dealers or did it appear in normal production?

Can someone with an engine cast after June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....do other production sandcast engines have T designation charactor on their cases?
DW

[4pots1969]

John,  

I think that it is necessary to be a little bit serious to have also a minimum of common sense and logic!!
And we add well enttendu has all this a good pairs of glasses..
It is completely indispensable!!

You dispute certain details of spaces, smoothing, adaptations where of chiffres???
Why not!! Because when we want to find even very subtle differences everything is good has to take!!
Especially on a HONDA CB750 SANDCAST.. It looks like more at the beginning has of the small production which looks for its marks where which gropes rather than has of the big industrial production.. It explains all these oddities!!

I took time to annalyser this morning photos about 450 numbers Sandcasts of my Computer.
And indeed I can say to you that if the numbers for the series 14000 and 17000 Sandcast after-period are not original markings Honda.. And indeed 75 % of the numbers Sandcasts which I analyzed cannot be validated as being ORIGINAL HONDA if I take into account your criteria!!

You see a resoldered clutch cover while I I see only a clutch cover Diecast which was not pierced and consider I the difference is enormous!!
They did not make these clutch covers specially for these Sandcast, they did not simply drill tenth holes and it is of an irrefutable logic.

If you find real proofs questioning the authenticity of these Sandcasts after-period do not hesitate has to let it to me know..

Gerard

[Steve Swan]

over the years, there's been these special cl.covers on ebay usa.  i'd need to see evidence the cl.covers were limited to only French sandcasts.  for now, i don't believe the covers were exclusive for French.  they've been seen on ebay in the usa.  i think a couple members bought them to study...... KP ?

theories and opinions with evidence are necessary to arrive at a conclusion of "truth."  with what little we know, i choose to believe the font is Honda oem.  for me it's the only evidence that exists to date.  we need more evidence to have a stronger conclusion about the French bikes.

as far as i'm concerned, without evidence, theories and opinions are not valid test of authenticity.

as it stands, other than the vin font, we have no other evidence to test the authenticity of the Franch bikes.

John, how do you KNOW the frame/engine combinations are not original ?

when i get a moment of free time, i will have to study again the vins.  

[CBman]

Jimmy,
on 1014143 the font looks like original, but when you look at it at detail you will find it is very thin. Honda letters are more wide.
About the 9 letter. It has not same width at curl, but Honda font I have seen has it.

Gerard, you are talking about different lining for engine numbers at Sandcast production. That is true, but only in the sandcast production. But your bikes are not sandcast production! Your bikes are late mass production on very late end of 1969 and beginning of 1970. VINs over 10k should be in line, if were marked from Honda production.

At 1969/70 Honda just knew some sandcasts had problem with broken cases. So why would Honda didn´t use them as replacement, but used them in mass production instead of diecast cases, which also required special clutch cover and gasket, and special engine number marking ? It means there should be another 3 different steps on production line. For me it has really no sence.

Steve, not matching (or missing frame) were mentioned in another topic. It means, that 50% french sandcasts do not have correct frames, which is also strange.

By the way, do these engines have only sandcast cases, or are sandcast engine ? As you know, sandcast engines has some different parts  than diecast engines have. Hard to believe Honda had assambly complete sandcast engine among diecast engines. Can anyone asnwer this last question ?

[Steve Swan]

John, you're asking lots of good questions.....  now, where do we get the answers......   until we get more info, there will be no answers.  only theories, discussions and opinions like we are seeing here.

John, i would GUESS these sandcast cases contain period parts consistent with what one would find in a 14xxx through 17xxx engine.  but.....  who knows ?  again, we have not sufficient information to have anything but questions and opinions.

so i guess i need to go back and read what "not matching frames" and "missing frames" is about......  i'm guessing "missing frames" means there are engines only..... with no frames.

Until there is more evidence, MY OPINION is the font is Honda oem.  i won't say the font's oem on every engine, but sure looks like oem font to me. 

John do you believe all font is not oem ?  if you believe no font oem, then i can understand why you believe the vins are fake.

if you believe at least one vin set is oem, how do you think the oem font got on the cases ?

[4pots1969]

John
Yes, we can extrapolate on height of details which are insignificant..
And you know as me that it was not still the same worker who made the marking of these numbers
on engines and there were very certainly several sets of tools to make these markings of numbers.

It is also necessary to take into account these tools which wear out and we can even add the factor
of the conscientiousness because some people worker had to make the marking better than others.
All this put kicks has end explain all these differences. We can discuss for a long time these numbers which are
more or less done well, but they will remain nevertheless numbers fact by the factory Honda and that it is a certainty...

[kp]

Guys
Here is a very good example of number/stamping variations. Do I need say more KP
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-SANDCAST-CB750-KO-1969-CASES-2491-/141242520834?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20e2b5d502#ht_166wt_1026