Who would be interested in getting 11mm mirror stems?

[kp]

Hi KP! Yes, I´m only referring to the 11 mm stems. To me, the 10 mm stems seems interchangeable. Until today I havent had the time to dismount my 11 mm stems and tomorrow morning I´m leaving for Germany for a couple of days. Next week I´ll get the photos of the stems compared to each other and the both stems pictured above a woodenmeter or what you call a wood stock with both mm and inches. The nuts used for 11 mm stems has bigger holes (to fit 11 mm stems) than the 10 mm stems. But, the windingthickness is the same on both models. Until next week, Bo.

Hi Bo, That's a great. Further amazing information from you for us to include in our stock of collected data. Here is a picture of a bike presently on eBay and if we study the photograph I believe one can make out the difference you refer to. I look forward to you further data.

[markb]

I've studied the picture too and I can see the the base (nut) of the mirror is higher on the master cylinder side than it is on the other side but I really can't tell if the bend radius, bend angle or bend position is any different.  Compensating for this height difference would be easily accomplished by tilting the mirror slightly.  We need to check a pair of stems side by side to really determine if they are different.
For what it's worth, I found something interesting in one of my parts books.  I can't find a date on it but it is labeled "Honda Parts Catalog CB750-K2.  So it does have sandcast part numbers in it.  It shows the CB750 LH & RH mirrors to be the same part number, 88110-300-000.  Then it changes to two different part numbers for the K1's.  I realize there is no way of knowing if it were 10 or 11mm stems.  And it may just be a typo.  But I'm very interested to see pictures of a set of 11mm mirrors. 

[kp]

I have to confess I find this sort of stuff more fascinating than anything

[kmb69]

....But I'm very interested to see pictures of a set of 11mm mirrors.

Here ya go. Factory mirrors from 244. Right and Left have identical lengths, bends, threads, and nuts. Shafts measure about .05mm over 11mm due to chrome plating I think.

[markb]

Excellent!  Thanks for the pics.  That simplifies things a lot.  Does anyone else have any pics/info that supports this find or not?

[kp]

I learnt something with the speedo/tacho debate and the French sandcast information, and that was never write off any information/theories/comments etc in relation to the Sandcasts.
Bo has asked me to upload his pictures of the 11mm mirrors and they will follow in the next post.
Amazing  and thanks Bo

[kp]

[kmb69]

Amazing! Obviously Honda was shipping every variety they could get their hands on. All 4 of my 11mm's are identical.

I just bought a parts manual printed April 69 but have not received it yet. Does anybody know if this was the first printing? Was there a provisional version prior to that?

Am anxious to see what they listed for part numbers at that point.

[markb]

KP, thanks for posting the pics.  Interesting indeed.  In the third pic which shows a closeup of the stems with the nuts it almost appears that the right one (in the picture) is a smaller stem (maybe 10mm?).  Maybe it's just an optical illusion.  Can we get a micrometer or caliper measurement of the diameter of both stems?  The right one also has a shorter (16mm) nut which is what I have found on 10mm stems.  Steve's 11mm mirror has an 18mm nut.
Thanks guys.

[Steve Swan]

The stem and nut on pictured on RH side *appear* 10mm.

The pictures (without measurements) can only give *appearance* features.

The pictures clearly show differences *appearing* between these stems and nuts.

We need a micrometer or caliper measurement of the diameter of the RH  "taller" "longer" stem (shown lying mirror side down.)  We need measurements of the i.d. of that nut on that stem.  (Best to have measurements of both stems and nuts.)

Without measurements, WE DON'T KNOW.  

Until we have stem and nut diameter measurements, I'm not convinced both are 11 stems and nuts.

If both nuts are 11mm, then both nuts should thread all the way to the end of both the stems threads.  The top end of a 10mm nut will foul where the threads end on an 11mm stem.  Hence, cannot be threaded all the way.

[bojje]

Hi friends!
Since I don´t know how to attach pictures to this homepage I asked Kerry to help me. Now I´m able to put some text to the pictures. Both stems are 11 mm thick. Ihope you are convinced with my word, if not, I don´t understand the meaning of telling things I find out by myself. As you can see the right one is bent lower than the left one. The only reason for this as I can understand is to get same height of both mirrors. About the nuts: Both nuts at my bike are the higher 18 mm model and also with a wider hole to fit the stem. The only reason to use a picture of both models was to show the differense between nut for 11 mm and nut for 10 mm. The 10 mm nut is lower and it´s height is 15,5 mm. The nut for 10 mm has also a thinner hole to fit the 10 mm stem.
If I´m able to buy new produced 11 mm stems and nuts I´m still interested in 2 complete sets the way my pictured ones look since my #388 looked to be original at most points.
Kind Regards, Bo

[Steve Swan]

Bo, thank you very much for sharing your findings.  Evidence of RH & LH 11mm stems being different.  I can no longer argue all 11mm stems are the same.

The reason i asked for measuring diameters is because Mark's taking the time, effort and expense to produce the stems.  It only makes sense for him to produce the stems to correct specs, based on as much as we can possibly learn, before actual production begins.  

Would be no fun if he produced the stems, only to find out there was another specification he was not aware of, because he did not have all the specs, resulting in inaccurate reproductions.  

My asking for stem diameter measurements was not for doubting you, but to make certain we are all in agreement with what we have discovered so far.  

I've been proven wrong enough times on these sandcast details, that i always want as much info as possible to arrive at the most accurate possible conclusion.  Or perhaps i should say, what i thought to be "true," turned out was not true, because more evidence has been found.  As KP put it, when we heard "rumors" a few years back of French sandcast vins being much greater than 7414 and when we saw the evidence these 14xxx sandcasts existed, he realized we cannot continue to believe we are correct, just because we think what we know is the only "right" information that exists.

It's difficult sharing this info via the internet, i tried doing this last year with Mark when he was asking for dimensions on my 11mm stem.  As our conversation about theses stems evolved, it seemed only logical for me to send my stem to Mark, so he could see it in the flesh, for first hand observation.

KP has taken some exhaustive measurements of the large megapixel pictures you sent him, which further supports both your stems being 11mm.

And, I notice, the long (RH) stem has the "step" where the threads end and the smooth stem begins.  This step is most definitely consistent with the 11mm stem.

Again, thank you for sharing this info, there is so much to learn.  Without our sharing what we discover, we would not know these differences.

For me, this is the purpose of our website, to share and to learn.

[Steve Swan]

Keith, i'm not aware of any parts book before the 69.4 printing..... yet.  

The 69.4 and the 69.7 books call for a RH pn 88110-300-000 and a LH pn 88120-300-000.  I thought i'd posted this earlier, if i did, i don't see it.  I do recall sharing this info with Mark, in our personal email.  There had been some back and forth conversation, between more than Mark and i, the mirror it's self was mounted to be used for one side or the other, hence different pn's.  Other than that, at that time, we did not know of any other differences.

[Steve Swan]

Bo, I want to thank you again for taking the time to remove the mirrors from your bike and take the pictures of the 11mm stems.

The significant differences seen between these RH and LH 11mm stems is, to me, one of the most amazing, surprising and charmingly distinctive characteristics of these early bikes.

After i wrote the above, i thought i would look at the artist's sketch of the mirror in the 69.4 parts book.  While we'll all probably agree an artist's sketch may not be an accurate way to assess what an actual part might look like, the lower part of the LH stem is longer than the RH stem.

Bo's measurements show the RH stem has it's bend 40mm from the threaded base and and the LH stem has it's bend at 50mm from the base.  The clips appear positioned dead center to stem.

[markb]

Bo, Steve, KP, Keith,
Thank you all for your input.  Bo, like Steve says, we're not doubting your word, we're just trying to make sure we understand the differences so we can get it right (as right as we can anyway).  I'm trying to sort out all of this info.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  
We've got two examples of the stems being the same from Keith and one example of the stems being different from Bo.  I think we would all agree that this inconsistancy is consistant with this sandcast stuff.  For the sake of discussion let's call Bo's left mirror the long leg stem (50mm) and the right mirror the short leg stem (40mm).
Steve, I believe you told me that yours was a right hand and it measures approximately 50mm.
So to summarize, it appears that bend location is the only difference.  If we made them either way they could be considered correct.  That said I don't think it would be that difficult to make some of each as each person desires so it shouldn't be an issue either way.  I have one more (for now) question.  Is the overall (straight) length the same on the short and long leg versions?  
Now if I can just find a source for the clips.