VIN and Engine Number Spread

[Steve Swan]

I have F6457 and E7083, 626 range. I am 100% certain that this is the original motor. 1) The motorcycle arrived in Brazil  0km in early 1970 . 2) There is only this Sandcast in Brazil.

Marcello,  your bike has interesting history as i recall.

[kp]

Yeah, looked shit on the Kwaker mock up but I have to confess that I loved the pipes on the Rocket 3. One thing the Brits did well with their bikes was design. That Rocket 3 was such a nice machine to look at as was the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia

[Steve Swan]

Yeah, looked shit on the Kwaker mock up but I have to confess that I loved the pipes on the Rocket 3. One thing the Brits did well with their bikes was design. That Rocket 3 was such a nice machine to look at as was the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia

hi jacking by hi yakkin.  i be settin bad example.  picture of my 1974 Mk.II

[Steve Swan]

h a nice machine to look at IS the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia

we were talking how honda beat kaw to the draw and before that we were talking about how honda was under pressure to get their bike out as they knew kaw had their own project and the pressure honda felt perhaps was one casual factor in adjustments/repairs to crankcases causing cases with vins already stamped to be held back.  blame it all on Gerard.....  just joking, Gerard !  actually we deviated off topic with some very interesting side information, nice sharing and good "conversation."  i stabbed the pig with my Commando picture.......  blame it on me    (retirement must be making me silly....)

ps to Gerard, great stuff you post and truly appreciate the fact you have to use a translator.  i understand all that you write.  True enthusiast !

[4pots1969]

h a nice machine to look at IS the Commando
How did this thread get hijacked by this trivia

we were talking how honda beat kaw to the draw and before that we were talking about how honda was under pressure to get their bike out as they knew kaw had their own project and the pressure honda felt perhaps was one casual factor in adjustments/repairs to crankcases causing cases with vins already stamped to be held back.  blame it all on Gerard.....  just joking, Gerard !  actually we deviated off topic with some very interesting side information, nice sharing and good "conversation."  i stabbed the pig with my Commando picture.......  blame it on me    (retirement must be making me silly....)

ps to Gerard, great stuff you post and truly appreciate the fact you have to use a translator.  i understand all that you write.  True enthusiast !

Steve, you have much chance to understand what I write...
And I remind you that photos of British bikes are prohibited on this site!!!  
Thank you all for the effort you make to understand my Frenglish!!
For me when I translated into English and in French after I not understand a sentence that is written in French!!
You should know that I change the French text several times to get something coherent in English...


This may seem off-topic but actually not at all... Because it is related to the questions that you ask and you will never have the answers ...
All these errors and numbering changes from the fact that Honda have completely underestimated its production for the CB750 ... The choice of sand casting is irrefutable evidence ...
I'll try to found the article where a specialist talks about a production of 1,000 bikes reserved mainly the USA ...
It was also written that 20% of cranckases emerge from the foundry faulty ...
Then surely cranckases were found mounted on motorcycles with invisible defects were detected with control of oil leakage... Always in a hurry they remove the engine and shall hand another with higher numbers... I think corroborates with what our friend Kp for numbering gaps...
All this is related only to the foundry defect and not problems related to mechanics ... Because everyone knows that Honda knows assembled correctly the engines ...

But sincerely I struggle to understand the choice of Honda for the sand-casting..
They understood the lesson for the development of the 6 CBX 1000 for just a few engines were made in sand casting for testing ....The CB1E-2000015 engine sandcast is sold at auction for £5,125 (€6,489).....  
This is a ridiculous sale price..!!  Too bad I hase not the money because it would have been nice in my living room...

link:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21136/lot/205/

[kp]

I totally agree. Posting a photo of a British bike on this site is going too far indeed.

[Steve Swan]

Gerard - Yes !  i know the effort of using translators, i had to order some parts for my Harley Davidson restoration using Bing.  having to change the sentence several times.  have done quite a bit of english to czech.  so i respect the effort of your thoughtful replies.  as much as i dislike computers, we could not have the fellowship of this site without them.

KP (and Gerard) -  i set more 'bad' presedence  

i think we're capable of not totally robbing a thread's subject matter, so just a little something different to liven the old forum up a bit.

[4pots1969]

Superb restauration!! But why do you have a John Deere tractor seat ??

[Steve Swan]

you have John Deere's in France ?

[4pots1969]

Yes ... They all John Deere here !!

[DW69K0]

Great discussion KP!

I am taking us back to the original thread.

I have a theory on some of the higher Sandcast Frame & Engine mismatches from bikes  we know are factory correct:

In any production environment, mishaps occur, we call them non-conformances in industry today, non-conformances are pulled off the line to fix an investigate. These units usually get corrected and reintroduced back at the point they were discovered, or they are scrapped. Honda had to pull some of the Sandcasts off the line to fix or investigate issues. Is this where the blue and red dots placed on the top of some cases becomes a factor?


During the first week of production pulling Frame 7 off for a few days,especially since it was one of the first frames down the line doesn't seem odd to me.
Reviewing upper engine case casting dates it would have been maybe a week or two theoretically) before Engine 90 would have been available to place in this frame. I draw this conclusion based on the higher engine number top casting dates in the directory, since the first engines produced did not contain this information. This is all  speculation.

Studying the frame vin numbers and engines numbers and looking closely at the top casting dates, I truly believe the engines numbers were stamped at the point where they were close to entering the the frame, during final assembly. Reviewing the upper case casting date shows clear evidence of this theory.  Of course my thoughts are all theory as I have no true facts to fall back on, but the engine casting date do show a pattern.

I wish more members would update the Vin/Frame information with top casting dates, as I believe this would start to show a pattern of factory matched frame and engine combination and show which month's in 1969, the Sandcast Vin ranges fall between for rough comparisons and would provide the earliest starting point within the month a bike could have possibly been assembled, so we would have more data to analyze for comparisons.

Best,
DW

[DW69K0]

KP,
Here is what the VIN Directory shows us all in, keep in mind this is all Vin/Frame combinations we currently have listed, did not sort for non-factory paired an assembled bikes, as they are not all identified.

58% have Engine numbers higher that Frame
42% have Engine Numbers lower than the Frame Vin

Conclusion, probability is higher for an Engine number to be higher than Frame.
Best,
DW

[Steve Swan]

Great discussion KP!

I am taking us back to the original thread.

I have a theory on some of the higher Sandcast Frame & Engine mismatches from bikes  we know are factory correct:

In any production environment, mishaps occur, we call them non-conformances in industry today, non-conformances are pulled off the line to fix an investigate. These units usually get corrected and reintroduced back at the point they were discovered, or they are scrapped. Honda had to pull some of the Sandcasts off the line to fix or investigate issues. Is this where the blue and red dots placed on the top of some cases becomes a factor?


During the first week of production pulling Frame 7 off for a few days,especially since it was one of the first frames down the line doesn't seem odd to me.
Reviewing upper engine case casting dates it would have been maybe a week or two theoretically) before Engine 90 would have been available to place in this frame. I draw this conclusion based on the higher engine number top casting dates in the directory, since the first engines produced did not contain this information. This is all  speculation.

Studying the frame vin numbers and engines numbers and looking closely at the top casting dates, I truly believe the engines numbers were stamped at the point where they were close to entering the the frame, during final assembly. Reviewing the upper case casting date shows clear evidence of this theory.  Of course my thoughts are all theory as I have no true facts to fall back on, but the engine casting date do show a pattern.

I wish more members would update the Vin/Frame information with top casting dates, as I believe this would start to show a pattern of factory matched frame and engine combination and show which month's in 1969, the Sandcast Vin ranges fall between for rough comparisons and would provide the earliest starting point within the month a bike could have possibly been assembled, so we would have more data to analyze for comparisons.

Best,
DW

nice write up, Duane !

[kp]

Yes that makes sense. I do know Kawasaki used engines with stamped numbers to stock their spare parts inventory. A good friend of mine who's was a US citizen (born and bred) did his trade for a large Kawasaki dealership in California. I say was because he moved to NZ and then to Aust He took out NZ citizenship. Anyway he told me there were 5 new engines shipped to the US by KHI for the spare parts inventory at Kawasaki America and all were consecutively numbered. Now believe this, he bought 2 of these engines to make a double engined drag bike. He now lives near me aged 70 and in all his boxes of Kawasaki stuff sits these 2 NOS Kawasaki 900 engines numbered in the 12XX range I can;t remember the exact numbers but they are 72 year engines with all the rare bits on them.
So I guess Honda would have done the same thing with complete engines i.e.: sent fully stamped completed engines to their parts inventory and I guess this would have been worldwide. This act in itself would support the probability that there should be higher engine numbers in the long run. Interestingly, the first 1000 VIN registrations (90) only 33 engines are below the frame VIN. If you look to the 500 to 599 frame group there are no engines in the 500 range; small sample though it is. If you look at the 800 series only 1 and if you look at 1000 group there are none. If you note that the 4000 to 4999 VIN group 43 of the 52 matched pairs have a lower engine number. Why? I am baffled. Similar situation with the 5000 series approx 35 from 55 are lower engine numbers. When we get tot he 6000 series it changes again to higher engine numbers to the VINs. Interesting stuff (well it is to me at least)

[Steve Swan]

Yes that makes sense. I do know Kawasaki used engines with stamped numbers to stock their spare parts inventory. A good friend of mine who's was a US citizen (born and bred) did his trade for a large Kawasaki dealership in California. I say was because he moved to NZ and then to Aust He took out NZ citizenship. Anyway he told me there were 5 new engines shipped to the US by KHI for the spare parts inventory at Kawasaki America and all were consecutively numbered. Now believe this, he bought 2 of these engines to make a double engined drag bike. He now lives near me aged 70 and in all his boxes of Kawasaki stuff sits these 2 NOS Kawasaki 900 engines numbered in the 12XX range I can;t remember the exact numbers but they are 72 year engines with all the rare bits on them.
So I guess Honda would have done the same thing with complete engines i.e.: sent fully stamped completed engines to their parts inventory and I guess this would have been worldwide. This act in itself would support the probability that there should be higher engine numbers in the long run. Interestingly, the first 1000 VIN registrations (90) only 33 engines are below the frame VIN. If you look to the 500 to 599 frame group there are no engines in the 500 range; small sample though it is. If you look at the 800 series only 1 and if you look at 1000 group there are none. If you note that the 4000 to 4999 VIN group 43 of the 52 matched pairs have a lower engine number. Why? I am baffled. Similar situation with the 5000 series approx 35 from 55 are lower engine numbers. When we get tot he 6000 series it changes again to higher engine numbers to the VINs. Interesting stuff (well it is to me at least)

Facinating!