Honda CB750 Sandcast

Sandcast Broken Case Problems

Joe K · 6 · 3286

Joe K

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 268
    • View Profile
Hello,

As many of us know, some sandcast/K0's experienced broken cases from chains breaking.  My friend forwarded me the note below from Hondaman that I want to share with you to find out what your take is.  I have a 16t front and 45t rear, along with an o-ring chain for my sandcast.  I obviously don't want to break my case, so should I upgrade to a 17t front and 48t rear or be careful not to do any burn-outs.  Or are the new technology o-ring chains alleviate most chain brakes.  By the way, I do have a case protector on my bike.

Joe K.

The K0 started with 16T front and 45T rear, which earned the bike the nickname "The $1495.00 Chainbreaker" (original price was pretty low). Before 1969 was over, the kits were appearing to change it to 17T front and 48T rear to reduce the severe wear on the final drive. The kits came with a (silly) sheetmetal guide that was supposed to encourage a broken chain to go around the front sprocket and eject out the back, but it usually just gnarled up into a ball when the chain went too slack (from neglect) and then BROKE the chain, instead. So then the endless chain came out (lots of fun to install). By late 1971, on the K2 model, they simply installed the 18T front sprocket with no other changes. During the "new factory" series of the later K1 they had slightly opened up the cases in the sprocket area, so it could fit this new, big sprocket. But, it became so overgeared then that the top speed dropped from the typical 132 MPH to about 126 MPH. We frequently changed to the 17T when customers complained of lackluster performance, and most of them never knew what it was we did that "really fixed my 750!". 


hondasan

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
I would agree with Hondaman's note on the matter with the exception of the 132mph top speed perhaps.

The original 16T sprocket causes several problems - more wear of the chain by virtue of it having to work around a smaller diameter sprocket (therefore more pin movement), higher chain loading  to transmit the same engine output torque, and more sprocket wear due to there being fewer teeth doing all the work. These coupled with worn / badly adjusted poor quality chains could be a recipe for disaster (and lets not forget spring links badly fitted back in the day too). Increasing the sprocket size to 17 or even 18 will indeed reduce these effects, but of course reduces performance a little.
The chain protector was I believe a waste of time.

My gut feel is that modern "quality" chains properly maintained are likely to avoid the problem anyway with the 16T sprocket.

On #5298, I run an 18 front (there are no clearance issues with a sandcast, but not much room left!) with a heavy duty spring link type chain (not O ring) and the standard 45T rear. I find that whilst off the lights acceleration has been hurt as compared to a 16/45 set up, it is more relaxed at cruising speeds, and economy better too. And for me, I tend to ride it more sedately these days than back then anyway.
Chris R.
302/338


harald

  • Newbie
  • *
    • Posts: 11
  • Harald
    • View Profile
I just finished restoring my sandcast and it looks better then new allthough not 100% orginal since it is going to be ridden on daily. Now I have put a 16 tooth socket, cheap endless O-chain made in Vietnam and a 48t rear since 45t is not that available in Denmark, now my question is do I have a problem with a coming chain break or/ and a bad cruising speed?
Harald Falkentoft


Steve Swan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2705
    • View Profile
    • cb750sandcastonly.com
One (1) tooth change on countershaft sprocket same as a four (4) teeth change on rear sprocket, so your 16/48 combination will result in a top speed less than the 16/45 combination.  Going with this 1:4 ratio, 17/48 would be very comparable to 16/45.  Obviously, "smaller" front sprocket = less top end speed, same as "larger" rear sprocket = less top end speed.  With a 16/48 combination, your bike will have more "grunt," quicker acceleration whilst sacrificing about 6 mph top speed, more thrilling around town to ride !

I cannot imagine ANY chain manufactured today being near the lower tensile strengths of 1969-1971 chain steel.  I don't know anything about stretch/wear characteristics of Vietnamese chain, i do know the Vietnamese chain tensile strengths are less than Japanese manufacture chain.  I use Japanese manufacture DID non-O-ring and O-ring.  

16 tooth front is not that small of a sprocket by today's standards and any modern Japanese 600cc four is making around 105 -110 hp and uses a #520 chain, the CB750 makes 68 hp and uses a #530 chain.  When we were racing between 2003-06, my kid's Yamaha R6 (dyno'd at 111 hp) was running 13 and 14 tooth front sprockets, we were running approximately 60 races (and 60+ practice heats) per season with chain adjustments every 10th race and NO FAILURE what so ever.  Of course, we were using Sprocket Specialist sprockets and DID Racing Gold #520 O-ring chain.

Myself, i am a fan of O-ring chain, even though O-ring chain sucks a couple horse power.  Some pro-level racers don't use O-ring chain and they replace the the non-O-ring chain every other race, depending on course and operating conditons.  I like O-ring on the street in potentially prolonged filthy operating conditions, because O-ring chain is nearly maintainence free, requires periodic but infrequent lubing, even much more infrequent adjusting, is easily cleaned and sprockets will not wear out, almost ever.  

Our CB750's only make 68 hp, nothing close to a 110hp 600 four.  So, my opinion, a good range tensile strength O-ring or non-O-ring chain should be able to handle any front/rear sprocket combination utilised on a 69-76 CB750.  Because a Vietnamese manufacture chain is lower tensile strength than a Japanese manufacture chain, assuming chain care and operating conditions equal, stretch/wear should be less a factor with a Japanese chain.  O-ring does not a chain make stronger, it makes it less suceptible to wear because the links and pins are more protected from dirt and water.  I don't know that a Viet Namese chain will be unsuitable on a stock CB750, but i will hazard guessing the tensile strength of a Viet Namese chain is greater than chain steel manufactured during 1969-71.  Like i said earlier, for a few dollars more, i use the higher tensile strength Japanese chains.


Joe K

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 268
    • View Profile

1941wld

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
Old post I know but just want to add what i read.

The parts catalog shows a 17t sprocket as stock for the sandcast pn 23801-300-315 for sn 10000001-1003527, 17t sprocket pn 23801-300-010 for sn 1003528-1044805. The 18t was used on k1's and up.


Donzie has some of those 45t sprocket if anyone wants one.
here is his email Don Sherman <SSHER40362@AOL.COM>