Honda CB750 Sandcast

Diecast on eBay

kp · 27 · 6148

kp

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The following bike is/was listed on eBay and the seller has made some statements which I thought needed to be clarified with him.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180655580221&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123
Our site does not register bikes and we do not endorse whether a bike in our pages are genuine, original, complete or anything else. We merely record the number in our VIN directory. We can never verify as to a bikes authenticity so I sent an email to the seller to point out a few facts about our group.
Whilst the seller claimed in his response to me that he never said the 69 diecast was rarer than a sandcast machine, he has certainly alluded to this in a response to a posted questions he has received.
I know sellers write all sorts of things in their listings to maximise their bids and I can understand this to a degree, but I believe the reference to our site regarding registration of bikes needed to be clarified as potential buyers may be misled into thinking we are in some way an agency that registers and endorse the authenticity of sellers bikes. Some may disagree with my thoughts.
Anyway here is my email to the seller and his response.

Dear jwsdreammachines,

I'm not sure what is meant when you say your bike is registered with the sandcastonly website. Bikes are not registered on our site, rather, we keep a list of VIN & Engine numbers supplied by owners & we certainly don't attest to the accuracy of numbers, ownership, condition or authenticity. As for it being rarer that a sandcast I can assure you there were far more diecast engined bikes made in 1969 than true sandcast machines. Some 10,000 diecast machines were manufactured in 1969 so this should clear up your misconception on 69 numbers. Additionally, the sandcastonly site is just that, for the registration & discussion around sandcast bikes. The diecast bikes are added to our site to open up discussion given many sandcast owners also own diecast machines. However, at the end of the day, & I can assure you this is not elitist, a diecast K0 is a great bike but it is not a sandcast & the fact that many components are common, only sandcast bikes have a true sandcast engine.


Dear sandcast_k0,

Don't recall saying it was rarer than a sandcast but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter that much does it? I never said my bike was superior to or even in the same class as a sandcast....but as I am sure you are well aware, not everyone out there can afford a sandcast and this seems to be a good alternative for us poor folks out there. Wish I could afford one, you are one lucky son of a gun......sorry I stepped on your turf, won't happen again.
Cheers


Yabba Dabba KP


Bickle

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Does anyone else think the engine number stampings appear a little fishy?

Steve


1941wld

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Something looks very strange about the engine serial number. See how the numbers are not straight. One picture is my K0 and the other is the one on eBay for sale. What do you think? Looks like it's hand stamped. It's also the wrong stencil type.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:45:51 pm by 1941wld »


donzie

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Ok boys   JWalter has been out there a long time doing what he loves. I've had many dealings with him & have both sold him parts as well as purchased parts from him. I really don't think he's done anything "unscrupulous" here. I saw pictures of this bike when he recieved a while back & if I would have found it I would have jumped all over it. If he was not on the up & up his feed back would be crap.   


Joe K

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The engine vin font on this engine is different from Honda's font.  You can clearly see it on the B and the 7.  It must have been a non-stamped replacement from Honda and then re-stamped to the replacement motor vin.  Either way it is still a really nice bike, but unfortunately will devalue the bike some.

Joe K.


kp

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Something looks very strange about the engine serial number. See how the numbers are not straight. One picture is my K0 and the other is the one on eBay for sale. What do you think? Looks like it's hand stamped. It's also the wrong stencil type.

Yep Steve & 1941 you guys got it in one. That's sharp eyes you have my friends. I didn't even look at the numbers but they are re-stamped engine numbers no doubt. The 9 and 0 are also not Honda numbers. That's not to infer anything sinister as we all know these early bikes were apt to throwing chains and destroying cases. In fact it's probably a good thing that the numbers were re-stamped as there a loads where the cases were just replaced and the number generally lost forever.

Donzie you point is well made and I certainly don't have any beef with the seller other than as I said in my original post. He certainly has good feedback and based on that and your first hand dealings with the fellow I accept what you have said. As has just been noted however, the cases on this bike are undoubtedly re-stamped and this is the absolute reason why sellers should not be using this site's VIN directory to somehow verify the authenticity of their bikes. KP
Yabba Dabba KP


ashimotok0

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IMHO the cases are not 're-stamped' but 'stamped' replacements - as dealers were told to do when they replaced cases due to chain breakage. Don't know if they should have also had dots either side of the number or something to denote they are replacements. The guy seems OK to me and his BIN seems very realistic. He had a really nice CB350K0 twin a while back and if it was not so expensive to import I would have snapped it up.

Cheers!  AshD


1941wld

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I asked Vic World to comment on the stamping. His comment is as follows:

This is an engine case that has been stamped over here in the US.
 
It is most likely a replacement case-warranty (the blank cases always came from Honda with NO numbers, and it was the responsibility of the Dealer here to stamp the original numbers in). Some Dealers did, and some didn't...depending if they had the incentive enough to go to the hardware store and buy a set of number stamps. (Honda did NOT offer their own stamps to anyone..obviously).
 
The dead give away is the number "9"...this proves these cases in question were not stamped at the factory.
 
From the factory in Japan, the "9" character always had a funny looking "droop" to it (like an over ripe pear hanging on a tree)...and the cases here with "8229" do not have that type of "9".
 
The other foto of the (Factory) cases (#31927) DO have that usual droopy 9..
 
 
Vic


ashimotok0

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Great bit of work getting the maestro to comment 1941wld !! Don't suppose you can persuade him to tell us how he gets the brushed alloy 'factory' finish on his fork legs can you  ;) Or does someone else on here know please?
I thin the other dead giveaway is the letter 'B'.  As for the 'droopy pear 9' ?  - I reckon that could be reproduced with a number 1 and the '0' from a smaller punch set, punched at an angle - not that I am a master forger or anything  :)

I suppose the question  with the replacement cases is -  would you rather have perfect cases but stamped as non original font or a set which has suffered chain breakage and been welded up or worse still  'JB' 'Welded' ! Honda must have deemed welded repairs to be unsuitable, that's why they issued new case sets. Obviously, only really a question for diecast owners though, as I don't imagine Sandcast cases were ever issued as replacements - by the time the breakages were happening, Honda will have been well into using the diecasts in production.

My '69 Diecast cases are unstamped (warranty replacement I suspect due to chain damage) - not sure if its best to leave them blank or stamp them.

Cheers!

AshD
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 05:56:09 am by ashimotok0 »


kp

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Ash, There were a number of unstamped sandcast cases used to replace damaged early cases. The VIN directory lists a goodly number VIN 280, 677, 1123 & 3351. There are others but we don't have the details.
Good to see you back with us. KP
Yabba Dabba KP


Bickle

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Ok boys   JWalter has been out there a long time doing what he loves. I've had many dealings with him & have both sold him parts as well as purchased parts from him. I really don't think he's done anything "unscrupulous" here. I saw pictures of this bike when he recieved a while back & if I would have found it I would have jumped all over it. If he was not on the up & up his feed back would be crap.   


I did not think he was unscrupulous either (at first)....just unaware (he posted lots of pics of the numerous deficiencies, including the numbers)
But.....It was just reposted.....I sent him a note pointing out the discrepencies in his posting and suggested that he may want to ammend the ad. He replied " I would suggest you mind your own business and worry about something else.

No change to posting....Not that honest a guy from that response...in my opinion


jwsdreammachines

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Greetings Gentlemen,
Thought I should pop in here and set the record straight. My son and I run a very small time specialty Vintage Japanese restoration business. We typically knock off one or two bikes a month if we are lucky. Back in October we found this bike through my other son in Iowa. We were able to track the History of the bike through the former owner back to the original owner....that makes three owners including myself. I had no idea the case had been replaced until I was contacted by an unknown on eBay. It sure could have been replaced I guess, but I was not aware of the possibility until it was pointed out to me. Now as perhaps some of you are aware, you will always get comments (some cruel and critical) about your bike when you post on eBay. We took great pride in the work we put into this one and probably got a little defensive at first. After I decided to check your website I discovered the blog about my bike and the comments about my response to the critical emails. One started out this way..."you state in your description that the bike is 100% original, and you also say it is restored, which one is it???? It can't be both!!!" If you saw my ad it very clearly states it is a ground up restoration, I reiterated that point many times. By original I only meant that the original parts were maintained to do the restoration...The reason I became defensive with that comment was the tone in which it was delivered. My son pointed out that I should ignore the negative and focus on the positive....wonder who taught him that??? He's right, I just get so wrapped up emotionally with these bikes that I sometimes get defensive....for that I am very sorry.
At any rate I did make retractions to my listing including deletion of the "official" registration and also I inserted the information about the case being replaced. Today I decided to end the auction as the bike has gotten way too much negative press and do not wish it to be "blackballed". I wish I could sell it as that is how we make a living, but I would rather keep it than sell it too cheaply. We have put way too much time, money and love into the project so I think I will go ahead and replace the worn seat cover and win a few trophy's with it and then try to sell it again later.
Seems Bickle from Canada has me pegged as a dishonest crook, his words, not mine.
I can assure you....."I am not a crook!" Just leery of people sending critical emails without identifying themselves first. There are a lot of "haters" out there that just love to put people down, and sometimes those haters just get under my skin....not one of my best traits......
If you have a few moments check out my website. wwwjwsdreammachines.com as well as my feedback on eBay. We are just trying to make a few bucks while doing what we love.
By the way, back in 1995 I had a very early pristine and original sandcast that I sold to a gentleman from France for $6,000 if I remember right....sure wish I had that one back.
Oh yeah, someone asked about how we get the forks to look so good. We disassemble them and spray a good quality stripper to the parts, like zip strip. Then power wash them and just buff the heck out of them. The stripper will remove most of the old clear coat on the forks....also works on engine cases, wheels etc.
JW


Wayne

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JW
The post on the forks was referring to Vic World, who gets them to look like factory. (as with the rest of the aluminum pieces) No one seems to be able to duplicate the finish but him. Thank you for your comments.
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kp

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JW,
Thank you posting on our board and sharing your thoughts with us, as well as outlining what history you know about the bike you have for sale. I think Steve "Bickle" (plus Ash) was a member who actually commented in your favour in an earlier post so I wouldn't be too hard on his later comments. I think we can undertand your frustration when receiving emails that point out some listing errors etc. As you would be aware, eBay can be a tough gig.
Nevertheless you have been gracious enough to come to this board and explain your position. I do acknowledge that towards the end, you had amended your listing reference to our sandcast site which after all stimulated this discussion in the first place
You are now a signed up member of this discussion group so feel free to post and comment as you wish.
Best with your sale.  :) KP
Yabba Dabba KP


Bickle

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JW
Good for you for finally joining the forum that you mention so highly in your ad.

One thing.....you said ..............."Seems Bickle from Canada has me pegged as a dishonest crook, his words, not mine.
I can assure you....."I am not a crook!"

Please provide me the proof that I used those words that you mention. (crook)

Steve