questions on un-doing frame mods

[sandydogg]

hi, i recently found #1767/e1774 in the remote sandhills of nebraska, far from home. there is a heart breaking story with the bike... the guy i got it from got it from a buddy who was building a chopper out of it!!  i have a few of the original parts not shown in the photo's but not much. as this guy was hauling it from his buddy's house, the guy said "hey take the seat and tank too" but he didn't want it... so as the guy drove away the p/o TOSSED the tank into the back of his truck... yeah it was a wrinkle tank and ducktail seat, oh and the tail light with two hole bracket... well before i saw the cl ad someone else saw it and asked about the tank and seat and tail light, the guy figured it was junk and sold it for (what he thought was outrageous) $200. when i asked about all the other stuff he said the p/o has dozed the building down and all the scrap and even the bulding was long gone to the dump.  when the p/o had it, before the chop, it was VERY original and in great shape  she's not much to look at these days! it does have 8900 original miles on it and ran fine before getting the torch.

SO... i am new to the world of k0's and welcome any and all comments and/or help on getting this thing back into driveable shape. i doubt if it will ever be a true restoration, there is just too much missing... my goal is to get the motor and frame back to the best possible shape and take it from there. i have 2 k2's and a k3 to use as donor parts (not so much as a restoration but more a driveable mock up).

first order of business: cleaning up the motor. after much thought i have decided to not rebuild the motor as it has 8900 original miles and runs. was thinking of pressure washing it and see how it comes out. will have to be careful to plug up any openings of course.

second order of business: frame repairs. i think a professional frame repair shop can graft part of an old frame back onto this one. it has been cut and welded as you can see in the pics (if i get them to post!). i welcome any advice here!! i think the k2/k3 frames i have won't do. research tells me that the earlier the frame, the cruder the welds. so do you guys think any old k0 frame can be used as a donor frame?? i have the k3 with no title but want to be as correct as possible, even with a butchered frame. i DO have a clean title for the sandy and the neck and front area is pretty much untouched, the numbers are crisp too with no cable rub. swing arm?? k2/k3 part numbers are slightly different. again, do i need a k0 swing arm, or maybe try and grind the welds from the original one?? of course i want to keep it as original as possible, but some shortcuts would be welcome in this project.. i simply do not have an unlimited budget.

as i get the frame repairs done and the frame painted or coated (cons of powder coating?? i know it's not period correct of course) i will be using k2/k3 donor parts to make it a rolling chassis, get it fired up, get it titled in my name, and at least have accomplished a big chunk of the preliminary work. all repairs/restoration work/donor parts will be carefully documented. i suppose having a butchered frame to start with will make this one less than an ideal candidate for a councours type of resto. i am shooting for a decent driveable somewhat correct unit at completion. any thoughts on the project are appreciated.

cheers, john in omaha nebraska

[Steve Swan]

Great pics and congrats on your find !  I'm originally from Hartington, if you know where that's at !  You have some nice early parts remaining, do study our website and discover what those parts are !  In the process, you'll become knowledgeable about things sandcast.  Re: the frame repair, i would suggest finding as early a "K0" frame as possible to use as a donor frame.  Cut your steering head off in strategic places and use the rest of the "K0" frame from behind the steering head.  Any reputable frame building shop should be able to get the job done and i would think Omaha has specialty motorcycle shops that build frames.  Worst case scenario, would be sending the frame out, my past internet research, i know there are frame shops that repairing, rebuilding or fabricating frames is all in a day's work.  Assuming the engine's never been run out of oil, the lower end is probably fine.  Likely will, at least, need rings, upper end gaskets/o-rings replaced, valves refaced including valve guide seals.  You DO have a project, but if you take your time, look for and accumulate parts you need, you'll have a roadworthy early vin sandcast.  Really like your round oil fliter cover.  Didn't one just sell on ebay for crazy $$$$  ?  Nice early oil lines.  And, thin lip alt.cover.....

Happens there is an early "K0" frame on ebay.  Starting price is about right, the shipping is excessive - http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Honda-CB750-CB-750-K0-CB-750-Sandcast-KO-73-frame-12-69-1015194-1969-/320972226826?hash=item4abb6f810a&item=320972226826&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

You might call these people in Omaha, describe to them what you have and see if they can be of help - http://www.gypsycustoms.com/

[sandydogg]

hi steve,

thanks for the quick reply! i haven't checked evil-bay for a couple days, thanks for the link, looks about like what i need. i never thought about just saving the neck, i was thinking of keeping the frame as original as possible but that's a great point. i do have the lefty horn. guess that could be put on that untitled frame too. as far as ebay i might as well go on the record and let everyone know i am a full time seller on there too. sparkingdogg is my user/store name. we are NOT all evil crooks... some of us are honest business people just trying to make a living outside the box. some of us got laid off of 20 year jobs and have a family to feed, and a love of all things motorcycle. for me it' a good fit. just want to throw all that out there now. i am NOT here to advertise myself, i am just an upfront and honest guy. besides i only sell k2+ parts  i believe i have been in hartington a few years ago, i think it's near sioux city. as far as time, i have a "10 year plan" haha, no hurry, mostly would just like to fire her up as soon as i reasonably can... something about the old stuff just gets my mouth watering! anyways, the old girl was, according to the guy i got it from, slated to be cut further... he was looking for an amen savior frame to weld the neck on!! i do like the fact that it is pretty low in the frame number, with the lefty horn and all. i am sure i will have a lot of questions, i will do my homework too, any and all comments and advice are very welcome. i am proud to have this in my collection. i have been looking for one for a couple years, when the guy told me the frame number i couldn't believe i found one! and yes i will likely be doing the rings and valves and such as you have advised. thanks again, and thanks for the neat-o website for the owners of these neat machines!

kind regards, john

[vnz00]

Hi John, and welcome!
Ditto what Steve S said - find a replacement frame and this way your welder will know correct geometry etc.  I think the rear shock upper mount braces are shorter on the sandcasts, but Im not sure what VIN they changed to the longer ones.

You might also want to grab the rear swingarm and battery box (and any other sundry items you need) from that same bike as well.  The swingarm has a gusseted bracket for the early plastic chainguard.  Just double check this vendor has the right one (I think this was changed around VIN 20000).

Your front forks and fender arent correct for the model, but there are some correct early ones on ebay at the moment which I have seen recently.  Your front wheel and disc appear original though.  Id hazard a guess and say your rear hub is the original one too as it has the 45tooth sprocket on it.

That top triple looks like it has been customed or something - dont throw it out though as it should be an early narrow nose one.

Hopefully you got the front brake calliper and master cylinder as part of the deal too.

Looks like you got a nice find - aside from the mods, what you have there looks low mile, and not butchered.  You do have a round oil filter cover (which is strange as you have the factory recall carb tops - oil filter recall was earlier).  The alternator cover, oil filter and gauges, if sold, would more than cover the cost of what you paid I imagine

Good luck - do you want to restore or build up as a nice original bike?
Steven V.

[sandydogg]

thanks steven!

great info, i was planning on a k0 swing arm and battery box, would love to find a whole k0 for donor parts. i know the forks are not original and the fender. thanks for the info on the front wheel and rear hub, i was wondering!! as far as the top triple bridge, it is aftermarket vintage stuff, it matches the bottom one and they have a pretty fair amount of rake, to accomodate the oversized chopper fork tubes. i didn't picture it well, but the "narrow nose" has been cut off the oem fork bridge and bolted to the a/m current one with some home-made brackets so the gauges could be used (btw i am so very happy the gauges are there!!). i do have the caliper and arm, the oil tank, the rear pegs and pins, however the darned master cylinder got tossed by the p/o. too bad. thanks for the info on the carb caps, i was wondering why they were missing the "28". really happy thay smoothie oil filter cover didn't make the recall!! first thing i noticed when i saw the bike listed!! it's no secret, i paid $1400 for it as it sits. the guy had it listed at $1350, told him i would give him $1500 if he held it for two days, he said $1400 cash and agreed to hold it, had to rent a trailer since the stretched front end was too much for my 4x7. so, didn't get the trailer back to u-haul by 7pm, basically $1400 + $40 + about $100 fuel cost. $1540 total paid. i guess the triple clamp/front forks/rear fender/gas tanks/headlight are worth around $1000 which i will sell. that price would include some other stuff i got not pictured, some accell coils new, a vintage chopper seat, new aviation tank caps, a whole box of stuff. so i am in right now at $500  as she sits. i will pull out the electronic ignition and put the original points plate back in. too bad but no key. does have the sweet original recessed "holy grail" ignition switch. have to find a repop key with dust cap. all in time. and for your question, i am not a resto guy, not really. would rather have an original. i am in at around $500 so far so i don't feel too bad about dumping a few bucks into the motor and frame, and slapping some k2/k3 part on her, just to make her start to feel the way she was meant to. every time i look at it (and it is in my very small work shop!) i cringe... she looks HORRIBLE to me, like some franken-bike beast, who has been welded and cut and abused. will be quite happy to at least get some original lines back to her, the correct k0 tank and seat and such will come in time. and maybe i can find a front fender in my life time 

cheers, john

[Steve Swan]

John, if you use your 1767 neck and went the "K0" frame route, you could make your cuts on the front down tubes, saving the LH horn mount.  The top frame tubes would take a bit of study, since it looks like there was some modification work near the neck on top to mount those fat bob tanks.  The pics make it appear you should have enough original top frame tubing behind the neck to graft to a donor frame.   Before making any cuts,  i would find who can get the frame back together.  You may want to bring them the donor frame and 1767 and let them make the cuts.  I cannot recall w/o researching, but there would be no significantly appreciable visible differences between an original 1767 frame and any "K0" frame, especially the December frame now on ebay.

Does the center stand have the diagonal reinforcing bar on right side ?  

It's a bit difficult to tell, but DOES look like exh.clamps are the early "fat" type ?  Back side of top fins on clamps 2 & 3 appear beveled flat... ?  Whereas clamps 1 & 4 have a convex radius on back side of top fins ?

The tach cable has short knurl nut.  The early oil line fabric looks excellent.  You have the "straight cut" brake pedal and rear hub, etc.  Your switchgear looks really good, sans horn button.  A couple years ago, i bought just the horn button from Honda for my 2157 project.  You've got the ign.switch.  Got key ?  Try Mark troxell, Hondakeys.com   Nice gauges.  Looks like your cases and lenses are 'saves', just get new dial faces from LeCram.  Nice horn.  Good carbs.  You have early "8" engine mount bolts; not easy to find.  Thin lip alt.cover... priceless.

You mentioned other parts came w/ bike ?  Please post pics of parts !

John, in spite of the bike being a glorious mess you DO have good pieces for the makings of a nice start for building a rider.  With some persistant searching and researching, you can find much of what you'll need for a nice original appearing, if not reasonably correct appearing for the period 1969-70, CB750.  There's no rule saying you have to have the wrinkle tank, the double cut fender or the 2 hole tail light, etc, etc.  At least right away......    Getting the parts you need to make the bike appear original should not be so costly.  Basically, the major visual areas are side covers, airbox, oil tank and a seat.  The rest could be pretty much taken from "K0" & K1 and even quite a bit used up to K6.

Be ye not faint of heart !

I'll bet w/ some minor prep work, the engine will run quite well.  Remove sump pan, clean debris; oil the upper end.  Adjust valves, clean points, set timing.  New oil, filter, battery.  Press the new starter button.....  varooom !

GOOD STUFF !!!  

Keep us posted !

PS - where in the Sandhills did you find the bike ?   in my backyard...      

[sandydogg]

hi steve,

beautiful insight, many thanks. of course, i will have the frame builder make ALL cuts otherwise...  it's seen enough butchery, it's time it gets some professional help. we have a world class powder coater here in omaha, i personally think breaking the rule of "original" when it comes to powder coating is okay... it sure seems more durable, cheaper, just all around better. but frame repairs first!!

thanks for re-affirming what i thought, no SIGNIFICANT differences in the k0 line's frames. i wanted an expert opinion... thanks!

yes, the center stand has the bar.

yes, now that you mention it, the 1-4 and 2-3 exhaust holders are not symetrical... indeed! i was told that the pipes were cut from the mufflers for the chopper  so they have likely not been removed since mid-1969. 

i was wondering if it was good (or correct, i should say) to have a long cable nut on speedo and short on tach? 

i was happy to see the switch gear will not really need any real resto work, yay! haven't checked out the wiring yet. i like the oil lines, not bad at all. i will have to study up on brake pedals, not familiar with the differences. thanks for the tip, i will check out that place for the key, which i do need. btw i'm so happy it has a clean title!! a real one! 

i was planning on having the gauges professionally restored. mint gauges really make the bike pop. will check out lecram, thanks. probably go ahead and have the guts cleaned up and checked over... of course being the "old dogg" i will not likely get the odometer reset.

i had no idea on the "8" motor mounts!! great news! i know she was fairly early in the line and all. i think 100% of the non-chopper stuff on the bike is original. i believe there have never been any other 750 parts added to her. what part is left is straight from japan in one chunk. what is so nice is the low mileage, with 8900 miles probably no major repairs have ever been done to her. never been any need to slap on k1 parts (til now haha)

i will shoot some pics of the other stuff, i spread it out at my warehouse (within reason haha) since my shop is too small (2 car garage). i have two original oil filters in the box, japanese writing and all, bet they are from 1969 too. there's a couple newer ones in brown boxes but there are two in red/white fancy printed boxes. look vintage to me. will get pics.

naw not faint of heart... man i have a collection! part of my collection is some rd350's mostly 1975 orange ones... called the "giant killer" in case you don't know... well rd stands for "race developed" and they were born on the european and asian race tracks, and yes the cb750 was the "giant" haha... on the streets no one could touch the cb750, until you threw in some turns, and a skinny little f*cker on a screaming, knee dragging, smoking, two stroke twin born on the race track... they are super neat bikes too, and i have several, in fact one is parked right next to 1767, hope she doesn't mind, haha... have a couple bikes from the charles redlin collection (his dad is the famous artist) including a mint 1983 gl650i silverwing interstate and a mint 1986 vf500 interceptor v4. have another silverwing interstate, an 82 gl500i with a friendship sidecar and every markland accessory from back in the day, she belongs in a parade... tall screen, bubble trunk, chrome airhorns/floorboards/light bars etc etc etc it's quite a fancy looking little hack, haha... have a TON of dirt bikes 2 stroke 4 stroke vintage and modern. my daily drivers are my "fleet" of vn750 vulcan's of which i have about 6 or 7. all in all i have built up a neat collection. i have a chance at a norton 850 commando "hi-rider", it is rough, but i kind of like the odd stuff. i cut my teeth on a 1968 kawasaki c2tr "road runner". my first "real" dirt bike was a 1974 kawasaki f7. i moved up to a 1973 honda cl350 "scrambler" which was stolen from me, and i miss terribly, it was absolutely mint i tell ya. just sparkled in the sun. so no, not too "faint".

yes i will be careful before i fire her up, for sure. your advice is sound, thanks.

i found her on omaha craigslist, drove to "near" burwell, nebraska. i have never been to the sandhills... holy crap  what a place!! no interstate... took the back 2 lane to fremont, once about an hour outside fremont the roads turned to total crap, some of the worst hiways i have ever driven. the u-haul trailer was apparently built to be idiot proof, meaning super-dee-duper duty, meaning a suspension that will hold 3000 bags of concrete that some moron will put on it. empty, it pulled like a pig. loaded, it pulled like a big fat pig on square wheels, with a wind sail attached. and i have a heavy half ton 4wd dodge 360 ci pulling machine, long cab, made for pulling BUT the roads were so bad that i was doing 45-50 mph for much of the drive back. it was pretty bad. had to stop a lot and check the straps after a few dozen tooth-rattling trailer-swerving bumps. man, as far as the actual sandhills... i think it was around 45 minutes before i would see a house, a car, or anything but SAND and HILLS. it is kind of pretty in a way, but NO THANKS i was born a city kid and the sandhills are kind of like montana, just miles and miles of NOTHING. it was a long long day making that drive. oh and a big shout out to kc, the guy i got the bike from. what a nice guy! i stayed as long as i could and bs'ed with him, hope i can do more business with him, one of the "salt of the earth" kind of fellows. a true pleasure to meet him. also got a hot tip about a "shed full of old old 750's" haha  gotta love finding a sand cast in the sand hills

will be moving to fall mode soon and begin some frame work etc, will do a full write up on progress with a ton of pics and a few vids, it's all in a day's work for me. i am surrounded by motorcycles all day. at night, sometimes, i still dream about them. how kool is that 

regards, john

[markb]

John, all I can say is wow.  I thought I had a project with #97.  Steve and Steven have a lot of good advice.  You definately have a couple of good bits and the low VIN is a plus.  Welcome to the board, you've come to the right place.  I'll be watching this with great interest and good luck!!
Mark 

[Wayne]

Heck of a find, heck of a project! Welcome aboard John!

[sandydogg]

thanks mark and wayne!!

will post pics as i go!!

[sandydogg]

missed out on the ebay auction on the k0 frame today, got busy and forgot to THINK about bidding.... $230 shipped for a non-titles frame seems kind of steep. kind of been hoping to find a cheap "barn find" k0 and get the whole thing for around that. they are OUT THERE and it drives me nuts... just gotta find 'em! anyways tore apart a k3 today which will be funding the sand cast project, a pretty good untitled parts bike, a full runner... paid $400 for the k3 and that's exactly why i hate to spend over half that on a k0 bare frame, with semi-crappy pictures, could be hidden damages. old 1767 may have to go into short term storage until i can find a decent lot of low vin k0 parts at a fair price, hoping locally. ran an ad on craigslist "looking for old cb750's" and got about a hundred texts and emails. too many were in the $5k+ range. i am kind of like the american picker guy of the motorcycle world. i pass over the shiny stuff a lot (don't take me wrong, i have some very clean and vlauable vintage bikes in my collection) searching for the old, dusty, gritty, cob-web covered originals that have been in storage for 30 years. and i find 'em too. just seems silly, if i get the "sandy" fever and start snapping up all the k0 stuff at once, when i am sure i will find a decent k0 donor bike in the next year. winter is a good time to beat the bushes for the old dusty ones, it seems. although i keep my ears open all the time!!

get this... a local craigslist ad for a "71 cb750, $100, runs but has oil leak" holy donkeys this is why i watch cl up to 20 times a day! i was first caller, guy tells me he will be home like 4, i get there 3:55 of course, he says "man i must have had 1000 calls today... i think i am selling it too cheap... gonna have to raise the price..." and i am thinking, ok... here we go... guy says "have to have $150 now" man i just laughed and gave him like $200 and told him to keep the change. turned out to be a 72 cb750 k2 in pretty impressive shape, 95% original, nasty poopy brown colour, but ALL THERE, running, and current title. i got the impression he got it from his friend's dad for around that amount, rode it a couple weeks, sprung an oil leak by the stator cover, and parked it for a couple weeks, before listing it, guy had a nice honda shadow to ride anyways. just wanted his money back.

that's what keeps me going, keeps me burning $200 gas going to the middle of nowhere, keeps my mouth watering. they are out there. and i suppose, since i am taking an active and passive method to my search, my odds are increased over someone who never drives to the middle of nowhere on a moment's notice, just to FIND 'em. i know there are more sandy's out there. will sure be keeping both eyes open.

cheers.

[kp]

try this frame Item 271048854643

[Steve Swan]

Good find, KP !  $199.95, great price including shipping for a "K0" frame.  K3 frame will have visible differences in gusseting compared to this "K0" frame.

[sandydogg]

some pics of the work shop, rd350 "giant killer" next to "dead giant" haha



hard at work today harvesting this k3!




the poopy brown k2 titled runner i got for $200 locally, 24k miles





sadly i have nowhere to display my collection so it looks like this...




the box of parts i was talking about...




new cables




used cables




original oil tank and cap!




these filters look old!!




the points plate, it currently has electronic ignition which i will sell




more filters and some new accell stuff




original sandy tool tray




what's this horn?? no idea...





thought the mirror was original 'til i saw the stamp in the pic...





front caliper, no master or hose though...






rear pillions and pins




bucket-o-bolts




thanks, will check out the frame. wasn't going to use the k3 frame... sometimes i AM a knucklehead but have been studying!!

cheers, john

[sandydogg]

thanks kp, for the heads up on the frame. i think i will buy it so i can at least start to get a proper rolling platform under way. probably find a whole k0 the day after i buy it... *sigh*

can someone tell me how correct this wheel would be for 1767?? ebay Item number: 251143423883

i have read on here about "double rolled" or "cold rolled" or something different but i can't remember where i saw it. i have the original hub laced to a 16" wheel. would i be wise to get this rim, have it rechromed (if needed), spokes re (zinced?? or chromed??) and lace it to my hub? am i better off getting a repop rim and spokes? your thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated.

if i get the platform roll-able it would be a huge thing. i spend half the day, in my micro-shop, with my elbow in my butt... the ability to open the frickin' garage door and roll a platform outside on a nice day is quite important. i had a kx250 fall off the stand and do about $300 worth of damage to one of my vn750's. unlike a hobbyist i don't have the luxury of a dedicated space for a project, not really. i don't have much for tools at my warehouse, i never work there.

i was thinking of a k2 i have for the front clip ie triple clamp and fork tubes. are the k0's the same as the 1767 would have? i do remember the forks changed in '71 or '72, if i remember right the early forks had different internals, different clips and stuff. i KNOW the k2's wll fit. but are they even semi-correct? i will research of course but also appreciate the comments. i don't always have the hours it takes to research, heck somedays i don't have time to comb my hair. two babies and a home based business keep me running all the time 

cheers, john