Honda CB750 Sandcast

"READ THIS" SANDCAST VIN 1014060

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kp

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Hey everbody  :)
I've uploaded to the Gallery the Sandcast that isn't supposed to be. This is an actual bike located in France and was recently listed on Ebay by its French owner.
Following contact with this guy he graciously sent me around 14 pictures of the bike and from what he sent there is no doubt that the engine cases are SANDCAST and from what I, Steve & Chris can ascertain, the engine numbers are the same as used by the Honda factory. I've studied the pictures from every angle and it's the real meal deal as far as a sandcast goes. The clutch cover is similar to one sold on ebay in the UK around 10 months ago so we do know that covers similar to the one fitted to this bike do in fact exist.
THIS IS AN AMAZING FIND AND ANYONE WHO CAN SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS OR PROVIDE INFORMATION IS URGED TO DO SO.
KP   :)
Yabba Dabba KP


Steve Swan

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Pictures provided by French seller show the casting dates ARE 9-11, (September 11, 1969.)

As yet, there are no sandcast crank cases known to have been cast after September 1969. And, there is pictoral evidence pressure cast vins as high as 9xxx were manufactured September, 1969.

The 13xxx numbers, on the French bike, are a November production date.

Determining why the French sandcast cases are stamped with a 13xxx range pressure cast vin and in a 13xxx frame requires the same type of thinking as if you were riding your motorcycle and it unexpectedly died at the edge of the road. Would you pull the engine and do a major engine rebuild at the edge of the road -or- would you remove the fuel cap and peer in to the tank to see if the tank has gas in it ?

Assumptions remain. The 10-hole clutch cover with the 10th hole blanked off is a red herriing. It is, as yet, unknown if this cover is a Honda factory part or a dealer/owner modification.

Does not make sense why Honda would make a 10.h cover to fit a 9.h crankcase. Has this cover been with the sandcast engine from the time the engine was built new in 69 at the factory? Was the engine even built at the factory? Or, was the engine built from bare cases by the dealer or owner? It's hard to believe the 10.h cover with a blanked off 10th hole is a Honda factory part.

ASSUMPTIONS: (not absolute statements)

1. Well into the 10.h pressure cast crank case production run, for no apparent reason or because a set of pressure cast cases were defective, the Honda assembly line used a pair of 9.h sandcast cases and stamped the numbers to match the 13xxx frame. Honda modified or made a 10.h clutch cover to fit 9.h cases. (Never mind that the 10.h case was a design improvement and the pressure casting process was used to increase production output.) It's difficult to imagine Honda would have had an engine returned to Japan from France for replacement due to crankcase damage (this would be a dealer job) and then Honda Japan would replace the damaged 10.h pressure cast cases with 9.h sandcast cases. It is a little easier to imagine the engine was returned to Honda Japan from a French dealer because the dealer reported to Honda the engine as defective and needed returned to Japan for examination at the factory to authorize repair and then the factory proceeded with the repairs. This seems unlikely because WHY would the factory replace 10.h pressure cast cases with 9.h sandcast cases ? This logic does not fit well, if the scenario is carried out.

2. The riveted steering head vin tag indicates bike was exported from Japan to France and likely carried a set of a pressure cast 10.h cases. After retail puchase, the pressure cast cases suffered damage from chain failure. The owner of the damaged p.cast cases brought the bike to a French dealer for repair, the dealer had a set of sandcast cases in stock -or- the dealer ordered a set of replacement cases from Honda and the cases shipped from Honda were sandcast. This could be a reasonable assumption, the 10.h clutch cover that was on the damaged 10.h pressure cast cases was modified to fit the 9.h sandcast cases, likely by the dealer, (less unikely this modification was carried out by the owner.) Crankcase damage to thrown chains was a fairly common problem, the dealer could have had a set of sandcast cases in stock and did not have a replacement 10.h cover for the 9.h sandcast cases. Being still somewhat early into the pressure cast production, it is possible there were no pressure cast cases with blank vin pads yet available from Honda and since blank sandcast cases were available, sandcast cases were used. Finally, the dealer had a set of Honda stamps and stamped the number from the pressure cast cases into the sandcast replacements. Scenario #2 would seem more likely than #1.

Careful study of the pictures suggest the engine could have been out of the frame in the past. Careful study notes a RH front engine plain head hex mounting bolt to not have #8 markings on it, suggesting the engine could have been removed from the frame. It would be helpful to be able to do a physical inspection of the bike, to look for tell tale signs of engine removal or other changes made on the bike after it left the assembly line.

Careful study of the pictures reveals the bike has had some changes to it and is likely not 100% original nor correct

Just some fodder for continued discussion on this interesting machine.


kp

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Jiminycricket has posed some very interesting thoughts and this input is valued.
Further to this I have been given more information by the current owner. He received correspondence from the seller on the question of the Sandcast engine and its authenticity.
The seller of this machine advised him by letter that he followed up this anomoly with Honda France and was able to track down several of the original French Honda agent workers employed at that time (Honda France may not have existed in 69/70 from reading the info). One of those workers stated to him that he was at the agency when several of these bikes were delivered from Japan and remembers a number of bikes delivered had sandcast cases but the actual number was not stated. The worker remember this fact because he was fully aware of the cut off in sandcast production and noted these cases when the new bikes were delivered. This bike was sold to a customer in 1970. Further this worker claims to have one of these later VIN Sandcast bikes in his collection. I'm trying to get some pictures of this bike and further information. That's all I have been able to obtain and given I'm not in France I doubt I can add much more to this knowledge base
The seller also stated that the bike has had work done over the years but the main work was a repaint of tank but frame is in original paint. Seems this bike was stored for a long period so bolt replacement could have been due to corrosion, or maybe it never was a #8 bolt. I note the other engine mount bolts are #8s. Only a thought. You can see that the case screws have all been pin punched to assist with removal so would seem the sidecovers could have been removed. This may have been done to free up frozen items but it's someting I've never done or known anyone to do. There is also a mixture of #8 and at least 1 later engine case bolt evident. Again this could be to replace corroded bolts, but this is only an assumption on my part.
I've had a good look at all the pics and from my perspective:
1. I do not believe the engine has been removed from the frame
2. I believe the stamped numbers are genuine Honda factory stampings.
3. I do not believe the clutch cover has been removed since it was installed.
This is only my opinion and others will, and have, a different view.
Why I believe the engine has not been out of the frame is because the owner stated he has been told it had never been removed and he hadn't removed it either. As for the stampings, I have never heard of a dealer having access to a set of factory stamps so I have the view that this is a factory number. Again, maybe someone knows of a dealer or two has had factory stamps
The clutch cover view I have is because it just doesn't look to have ever been removed. Gasket looks too old. Replacment gaskets are a good telltale and this bike looks to original to have ever been restored. Part replacement as required yes; restored I don't think it has been.
By the way, I have definately seen another of these 10 hole covers without the 10th hole machined. Looked exactly the same as the one on this bike and was a new and unused part. Honda origin I don't know. The seller claimed it was but I can state it was sold on Ebay and if the seller or buyer reads these posts then please make contact as this info is wanted
Anyway, these are my views and I'm open to to change them
Cheers KP
Yabba Dabba KP