Web Site Changes

[Wayne]

OK, a new year and time to get moving on the site changes. I decided to go with a more simplistic look that is easy on the eyes and easier to read. Most of us are getting to the age where the vision isn't what it used to be. 

Here's a link to the new look. I'm working backwards, these pages are as they will be presented. Once all pages are complete I'll add the new home page to the directory and we will be "live" with a new look. I'm open to adding additional information, images etc. so browse the pages as they are added and let me know. Until I replace the homepage with the new style, the original site will remain intact. I will offer a zipped copy of the old site minus for BB and gallery for those who may want it.

http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/machine_types.html

You may have noticed I am trying to sell a few ad spots to offset the costs of running the site. If you know of anyone looking for exposure pass them my email: sandcast750@gmail.com

Also I have added a PayPal Donation button at the top of the board. You can show your appreciation for the SOOC and support future development by giving it a click. Every bit helps.

Have a Happy New Year and may all your sandcast dreams come true!

[UK Pete]

Looks good Wayne , thanks for your time and effort
pete

[4pots1969]

Wayne,
My congratulations on your excellent work done with great taste!!
Gerard

[Wayne]

Thanks guys. I'm moving fast on the changes now. Pages are being updated and added quickly. Any input is appreciated. I want us on the new format ASAP.

I already see the main menu could use a bit more space between the links. I'll make that change. I'm going to leave the gallery as is for now.

I'll add the existing technical information / distinctions in the new format. The big job is adding all of the distinctions with images after that. That will be a work in progress after we change over as it doesn't exist now anyway.

Of course if you think there's a better picture/image than what I used for any page we can make that change easily.  

Any donation to offset hosting and domain costs helps. Thanks. PayPal Donate button is at the top of the board.

[Wayne]

OK, onto the big one, the Technical section. What I'm doing here is by parts manual section, listing "distinctions" with any part number changes, description where necessary and detailed images. I'll put a line through each distinction as it's completed. You can see the index at this link. Any menu items underlined and in burnt orange have content for your review. Any suggestions/feedback is appreciated.

http://cb750sandcastonly.com/new/technical_main.html


1. 12 mm nuts, fork clamp, 1-2157 (14 mm, 2158-onward )

2. short neck brake hose fittings, 1-2157 (long neck, 2158-onward)

43. upper brake hose steel neck fitting straight,1-2157 (late production has bend) Is this not the same as #2?

44. no rubber boot on upper brake hose to master cylinder, 1-2721 Does this mean units between 2157 thru 2721 had the later line with bend but without rubber boot?



3. No hose guide metal plate for bottom hose at junction box 1 - to 3950
4. 20.4mm wide nose on upper triple clamp, 1-3433 (22.4 mm 3434-onward)
5. no leveling ring on master cylinder reservoir, 1-2435 Is the 26mm high mirror boss vs the late 31mm high an separate distinction?
6. no “off-on-off” marking on kill switch body, 1-673)
7. pointerless kill knob (1-441)
8. LH mount horn (1-3949)
9. grey body horn with grey wire sheath
10. some grey body horns noted to have black wire sheath
11. knurled Allen screw heads, brake caliper, 1-1256 (smooth, 1257-onward)
12. 66 mm choke arm up to vin 1120 (52 mm late production)
13. horizontal brass vented carburetor bodies, 1-302, late carb bodies have cast 90 degree "L" type vent

14. short neck fuel tap, 1-1937 (long neck, 1938-onward)


15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325) (410)


16. 10 hole seat pan w/ 6 mm threaded hole so far to to VIN 1081. (late production 17 hole)
17. upper triple clamp nose less acute angle, 1-3433
18. 16 t. counter shaft sprocket, E1-E3527
19. all early “8” chassis/engine bolts
20. thin lip alternator cover, E1-E2134 Two types. Smooth HONDA background and rough HONDA background
21. “Lotus Root” exhaust, 1-4148, no “HM300” stampings, no brake pedal relief (ditto late production)
A. long, cylindrical steel removable sound diffuser with no external fiber covering and not interchangeable with late production exhaust.
B. 5 mm welded seam (late production 7mm seam)
C. mufflers have no internal baffles, only a plate with a hole for which the long cylindrical baffle slips in to for support
D. 6 mm hex head removable screw fixes baffle to muffler body, this screw is not welded to baffle as in late type exhaust
E. bolt mount hole diameter 55 mm (late production 58 mm)
22. no vertical crimp markings on oil line (smooth) ferrules
23. smooth rubber fabric oil lines, E1-E338 (late production webbed fabric)
24. swing arm (rear fork) date stamped, left underside bushing area
25. oil tank date stamped, inside top rear mounting bracket
26. “8” bolts fixing rear sprocket to carrier up to 232 (302 has plain head bolts)
27. no diagonal brace on center stand, 1-1120
28. round, fin-less, non-webbed oil filter cover, E1-E4148
29. 14 mm hex head, oil filter bolt to E4148, 12mm beginning 4149
30. driver portion of seat less thick, horizontal surface
31. passenger portion of seat angled
32. 2-hole air box bracket, 1-4006
33. no relief on upper air box cover, We have no information that "no relief" features on upper covers between VINs 674 to 1553
34. 2-hole air box brackets 30 mm, 1-4006 (24 mm 4007-onward)
35. pillion rest/muffler bolts 146 mm, 1-1221 (148 mm, 1222-onward)
36. upper crankcase vin pad 11 mm wide (late production 19 mm)
37. no casting dates on early crankcases (E1-not known after E254)
38. no casting divots at crankcase base of #4 cylinder hole
39. exhaust pipe clamps, “fat” fins, 1-2435
A. #1/#4 clamps, no relief on back side of fins (not interchangeable with #2/#3)
B. #2/#3 clamps, relief milled on back side of fins (not interchangeable with #1/#4)
40. “8” bolts fix master cylinder clamp to master cylinder up to 2157 (late production plain head, chrome)
41. early lower frame steering head has steering damper gusseting, noted on frames up to vin 1588
42. caliper backing plate more deeply finned
43. upper brake hose steel neck fitting straight,1-2157 (late production has bend)
44. no rubber boot on upper brake hose to master cylinder, 1-2721
45. sand cast cam chain tensioner body, E1-E1106
46. 10 mm rotor bolt (E1-E1080) (12 mm, E1081-onward)
47. acorn hex head bolt, starter cover
48. narrow counter shaft, E1-E3527
49. 8x80 left rear crankcase bolt, E1-E219
50. No guide lugs as cast part on junction box for top brake hose (up to VIN 1927 identified)
51. no rubber cushions for air box mount bracket & air box upper body (until 4006)
52. short knurled ring nuts on speedometer/tachometer cables, 1-2157
53. wiring harness 32100-300-040, 1-3479 (32100-30-050, 3480-onward)
54. no wire clip fixed to horn to guide tachometer cable (1-3950)
55. left side horn mounting bracket, 1-3950
56. frame has LH horn mount, 1-3950
57. crank shaft has 10 mm threaded hole for rotor fixing bolt, E1-E1080 (12 mm, 1081-onward)
58. webbed fabric oil line, smooth ferrule, 303-2435
59. chrome hex head brake line bolts, 1-2720 (zinc plated 2721-onward
60. 5 mm flanges on exhaust spigots, 1-665 (6 mm, 666-onward)
61. date stamped lower triple clamp
62. round captive 6mm nuts on battery box, fixing regulator to battery box (late production, square nuts)
63. small side cover grommets 1-1120 (“240” middle part number)
64. exhaust spigot flanges, radius on each long diagonal side, (E100 has 4 radius type.)  (E342 has 2 radius type and 2 thin 5mm straight type.)
65. RH oil gallery plug, solid, 1-1106 (bored hole, 1107-onward)
66. rear M6 cylinder head/cylinder fixing bolt “special” type, same as four underneath cam carriers, 1-1106 (“normal” 8 head bolt, 1107-onward)
67. no locating rib on speedo/tach rubbers, 1-3433 (locating rib, 3434 -onward)
68. sandcast cam carriers, oil pump, clutch center spider, gearshaft bearing housing, E1-E338
69. no holes in ends of rear wheel cush rubbers, 1-302 (late type have holes)
70. no garter springs on valve stem guide seals, 1-338
71. piston oil control rings have helper springs, E1-E338
72. front oil gallery plug smaller diameter than later plug
73. adhesive aluminum vin tag, RH steering head, no manufacture month/year
74. riveted on aluminum vin tag, RH steering head, containing month/year of manufacture, beginning 9/69 (Sept. last month of sandcast manufacture)
75. red plug key, per HONDA factory brochure (?? on first few production bikes??)
76. around E600/E700 began having “mixed oil lines, i.e., smooth and webbed fabric, both line types still using smooth ferrule
77. around E338, lower case date stamped, upper case no date stamp
78. weld seams on frame gussets lower than late production weld seams (late production has higher weld seams)
79. lower connections, oil line to engine, smaller, less "beefy"
80. round hole in speedo/tach mounting rings, 1-302 (303-onward oblong hole)
81. 11 mm mirror stems, 1-302. Threaded to unthreaded portion of post has an actual step, appearing machine turned. Mirror stem at clamp end smooth. (Later mirror stems 10 mm without machine turned step and a circle outline visible at clamp end.)
82. Later LH horn mount frames have no gusseting for steering damper, first noted on frame 1023
83. Early clutch cover have thin lip in “10th hole” area, later covers have thick lip. Thin lip known up to 1106, thick lip after 1107
84. Relief on upper case of airbox, 673 recorded as the highest VIN without relief. If you have a higher VIN let us know
85. Profile of relief of frame down tubes in front top air box area less acute, relief has rounded hand hammered appearance on early frames, 1-302. Later frames this relief appears as result of a machine stamped operation, flattened acute “V” in appearance.
86. Cast bosses with untapped 6mm holes of upper crankcase in the primary chain "tunnel" area for what appears to have been intended to fix a guide for upper primary chain, approximately the first 200 crank cases.
87.  Neutral switch has no chamfer to accommodate pushing through O-ring, replacement switch has chamfer
88.  Smooth background of HONDA logo on alternator cover, up to around E835, wrinkled background after approx.E835, both covers thin lip type.
89. Bearing, countershaft outer drive, 1-5306, plain outer race.  5307-onward, outer circumference of race grooved to accomodate retaining ring.
90.  radius on welded seam of oil tank, front upper RH corner.  (up to 302)
91.  17 mm hex/acorn head nuts fixing upper shock absorber to frame  (on random vins up to 248)
92.  Backing plate, rear brake, inside: four ribs around the center (axel) hole with (later type) and without (early type) the round bosses. Straight or plain ribs (early) vs. ribs with round bosses (late.)  Suspect round bosses were for mold ejecting pins.  Early type plain ribs create 4 distinct 'holes'.  Later type does not have 4 distinct 'holes' as seen in early type.  Later type has 4 distinct round bosses; as noted prior, likely for mold ejecting pins.  

[Sam]

This one is incorrect:

15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325)

Sandcast e436 has a 19l tank.

[Wayne]

This one is incorrect:

15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325)

Sandcast e436 has a 19l tank.

Anyone want to chime in before I add the fuel tank distinctions and VIN breakpoints to the page?
http://www.cb750sandcastonly.com/new/tech/frame_group_9.html

I really need members to follow this thread and assist where possible with information and pictures if required. This is the last area to complete on the site overhaul. Thanks!

[Sam]

Just show proof, here is 410/e436:



Other than the tires, grips and the fuel tab, i believe the bike to be original

Here is a pic of the underside of the tank (on the left with a 17L for comparison on the right):

[Steve Swan]

the way i read #44, short neck brake line used until 2721 AND no rubber boot was fitted.  

it's been so long since i made that entry......

[Steve Swan]

This one is incorrect:

15. 19 litre fuel tank, 1-325)

Sandcast e436 has a 19l tank.

This is not about being "incorrect"....  It's about what we continue to learn.  

Vins 1-325 having 19 L tanks; that's all we knew as having been reported at the time i made that entry, sometime around 2007.....  

Really great to see people are reporting in their findings, and we've found a wrinkle tank as high as frame 410.

[Steve Swan]

And AGAIN.  Thank you Wayne for taking over this project and bringing the website to a new higher and better level !!!!

[Wayne]

Thank you gents. It is suggested here that there was a mid-run "2-dimple" tank. Does anyone have a picture of one or point me to it?
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm

[Steve Swan]

Thank you gents. It is suggested here that there was a mid-run "2-dimple" tank. Does anyone have a picture of one or point me to it?
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/support12.htm

it may have been KP who made mention of this tank.

[Steve Swan]

also:  let me say, Wayne....  a lot of info/pics you are resurrecting from the website were loaded in the very late date days of 2004 and throughout 2005.  SOOC was built as a place to collect in one place info for the rest of the on line planet to see.  We had yet much to learn and then knew little.  people who contributed then haven't been for some time.  there was a frenzy of sorts to learn as much as we could and share what we learned.  KP and i emailed each other DAILY for nearly 2 years sharing info, comparing our findings.  from when i bought 4363 in 2001, i reached out to anyone and everyone i could find who owned or knew anything about sandcasts.  

The whole impetus for forming SOOC 2004 was:  by that time i had finished restoration on 4363 and had met a number of guys in my search of learning more.  a number of them had mid and early 3 digit bikes.  i quickly became aware their early digit bikes were significantly different fomr 4363.  My always wondering decades prior why the blue-green bike in the early Honda ads looked so different than 4363....?  Why did so many of the 750's pictured in early magazines look so different from other 750's pictured in later magazines... ?? and in this pursuit of information,  learning the earlier vins had numerous differences remarkable from later vins.   Now we know that blue-green bike CB750-2114 was not a production bike...  That there were numerous factory test mules.  and at least 6 different other types of 750's;  early/late "prototype," early/late pre-prod and early/late prod.

All this was before i knew 232 existed, yet knowing these differences existed certainly fueled my passion to learn more.   Also, was the annoying fact some who i talked to were clearly keeping what they knew as secret as possible or giving misinformation either out of ignorance or deliberately.

Some of what is in the website may need further verification or substantiation.  i would never say it's a accurate or correct.  It's what we had learned at the time.  sources for some of that info have been lost or no longer participate.  Another reason i started the website, there was, depending on who you talked to a wealth of consistent and conflicting information.  As we progressed, some of the consistent info we learned was incorrect and some of the inconsistent info became consistent as we learned more. We've had many discoveries in the 10 years since SOOC was formed December 24, 2004.

today, you can read info about sandcasts on the internet and ebay you would not read 10 years ago.  much of what you read on the internet today has come from what people have read on the SOOC site.  Many terms describing features unique to the sandcast have come from this website and become common terminology. The ebay auction for vin 776 exemplifies the fact. Doubtfully, without the SOOC, there would not be as much mania over owning an earlier vin than a later vin as there is today.  that an early vin evaluates today for more than a late vin.  or the fact a 441 mile late prod.vin sold for around $40k and 2114 sold for $140K.  About all we knew then of differences were lotus root exhaust and left hand vs right hand horn mounts.  The term "French sandcasts" were more myth not fact.  Today, we know several exist.

Around 2005, our discovering there was a long choke arm in contrast to a short was a BIG deal.  The AMA having SOOC be the VMD Vintage club was a big deal and there we learned from Vic, there were 10 mm and 11 mm mirror stems.  

Some select few knew for years and even decades prior to SOOC's being formed the uniqueness of the various sandcast 750 Honda machines.  But, this info was not common knowledge.  Probably forming SOOC, all that we've learned and put on the internet, in some ways has it's pro's and con's.

it's safe to say, SOOC has brought much, if not nearly all we've learned to date... together.  in one place.

So, again.... Thank you Wayne for taking this project to it's next level.

[kp]

I applaud Wayne and Steve on their input and contribution.
There are 3 wrinkle tank types that I'm aware of. The 19 litre without dimples (well none to speak of) and two (2) 17 litre tanks that have 4 dimples. For those who are unfamiliar with the term dimple we are simply referring to the indentations in the tank directly above the carb slide/cable adjusters when the tank is fitted. Identification of the mid run 17 litre is not an easy task especially from a photo. Chris Rushton may be better able to describe the differences than I but I will attempt it as follows

The 19 litre tank had a unique (to it) petcock which, when mounted stood much lower than the later petcock. Whilst I have no facts to back up why it was changed, I presume it was done as the early type was so close to the bottom edge of the tank it was very difficult to operate. The later petcock is around 1/4"+++ (6 to 10mm) taller than the early type. Physically the 2 petcocks are externally different in the main body The bowl and actuation lever are the same or very similar.

Well we know that the 19 litre tank was replaced (we now know at least after VIN 410) with the 17 litre tank, however, the early petcock wasn't replaced and continued to be fitted to machines up to/around VIN 2000 (give or take 200 VINs either way). This mid run 17 litre tank had a very distinctive petcock mounting pad which stands a little higher and is quiet different to the late run 17 litre tank. The 17 litre in the photograph provided by Ujeni could well be a mid run 17 litre but as I said previously; very very hard to tell from a photograph.

I have to state that the person who told me about these mid run tanks was Andy Morris and I believe the photos of the 19 and 17 litre tanks posted on the website many years ago by Andy I believe are a 19 litre and a mid run 17 litre.

If you have a 17 litre tank with an early petcock then chances are you have amid run 17 litre tank. What I would do to see the underside of that early VIN bike currently being auctioned on eBay

Oh! While I'm posting I totally agree with the comments made by Steve re Ujeni and his post. I have said this previously, we list the various VINs where part changes occur as a "guide only" Members have been asked to report their findings as and when they are found so we can change the VIN cut offs as required. The information is not "wrong" at the time rather it is "what we know". Can I also say that the contributions made by the restorers during their works, especially Mark and Steve has contributed immensely to our knowledge base. If only I knew years ago what we know now I would have a store of early parts that would be to die for