Honda CB750 Sandcast

New Guy in OC needs suggestions - Just got bike 778

Gutz · 36 · 9635

Gutz

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Hello all from a total newbie to the forum and Honda's. I always new my father-in-law had two bikes in his garage hoard but I finally convinced him to let me take them off his hand to get running. These pictures show the unveiling - pretty stoked with what I found. When I started researching I really started to fall in love with the allure of this bike and classic bikes in general. So I'm in!

He is the original owner #778 1969 CB750 with very few mods. The pipes were sold in a garage sale without his permission, of course. I'm handy but definitely no wrencher, so a tear down is beyond me. Both bikes were driven into these spots in the garage and sat there supporting junk and boxes. The V65 was running 5 years ago and the CB about 23 years ago.

I really need some ideas of what I should do and I know this group has great ones. I'm considering 2 basic strategies.

1. Tune-up and do a classic look with some modern mods. Modern mods meaning whatever folks are doing to engine, carbs, filters, electrical to make it run better and look cooler. Also some subdued cosmetic mods, like pipes and handlebars. I would want the bike to look classic but upgraded, basically.

2. Total restore. I would do a my best to keep original, but probably not to the level that many of you have gone because I can't do all that stuff myself. I like the look but my concern is that if you don't go all the way, you just have a cool classic bike...that looks classic (old).

Whichever route I go, I don't want to devalue the bike in anyway. So I could use suggestions from all of you with experience on what my approach should be. Don't want to mess anything up. Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks.

P.S. The bike was originally candy red. So should Candy red be my choice? With either of my options, I will likely get the factory paint.


Steve Swan

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Hello all from a total newbie to the forum and Honda's. I always new my father-in-law had two bikes in his garage hoard but I finally convinced him to let me take them off his hand to get running. These pictures show the unveiling - pretty stoked with what I found. When I started researching I really started to fall in love with the allure of this bike and classic bikes in general. So I'm in!

He is the original owner #778 1969 CB750 with very few mods. The pipes were sold in a garage sale without his permission, of course. I'm handy but definitely no wrencher, so a tear down is beyond me. Both bikes were driven into these spots in the garage and sat there supporting junk and boxes. The V65 was running 5 years ago and the CB about 23 years ago.

I really need some ideas of what I should do and I know this group has great ones. I'm considering 2 basic strategies.

1. Tune-up and do a classic look with some modern mods. Modern mods meaning whatever folks are doing to engine, carbs, filters, electrical to make it run better and look cooler. Also some subdued cosmetic mods, like pipes and handlebars. I would want the bike to look classic but upgraded, basically.

2. Total restore. I would do a my best to keep original, but probably not to the level that many of you have gone because I can't do all that stuff myself. I like the look but my concern is that if you don't go all the way, you just have a cool classic bike...that looks classic (old).

Whichever route I go, I don't want to devalue the bike in anyway. So I could use suggestions from all of you with experience on what my approach should be. Don't want to mess anything up. Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks.

P.S. The bike was originally candy red. So should Candy red be my choice? With either of my options, I will likely get the factory paint.

Please accept a warm welcome to SOOC.  a good way to start out is by sharing your name so we can get to know you as someone other than "Gutz."  quite a number of us have been on the forum for a number of years, we're small in number, but high in passion for the sandcasts and over the years some of us have got to know each other quite well.  sharing our birth names builds a familiarity and courtesy we all enjoy as we always look forward to hearing from each other.

These engines run perfectly fine in modern day traffic when kept in stock original form.  you say you don't want to do anything to devalue the bike, then it is best to bring it back to an complete, as correct as possible original state.  "upgrades," pipes, handlebars or the like will devalue a 3 digit  vin.

i would suggest, start by a thorough cleaning and inspection to determine not only the condition of original finish but also what has been degraded by "patina."   as long as the original black paint is not too badly degraded, a conservation attempt is worthy of consideration.

i also suggest it's a good idea to study the parts on the bike to not only determine what original parts remain that are correct for a 7xx vin, but also to determine what is or is not missing or what parts have been replaced.  for example, does your frame have the steering damper gusseting at the bottom of the head stock as seen on earlier vin frames ?

i very much encourage you to research the forum, learn from the forum the distinctions you can expect to find on your 7xx.   quite a bit of the information you seek or answers to your questions will be readily found when typing in a key word in "search."  for example, the thread "88 model distinctions" will be a good start to aid your efforts to learn about your vin and increase your chances for members' participation in your thread.  

we love seeing new vin pairs come to light !  good luck and share pictures with us what you find and learn !


fire ball bike

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welcome aboard wow a one owner bike they are becoming harder and harder to find looks like you've got a gem there Steve's right in all that he has said. This is the best  forum on the sandcast bikes that's out here I think I get on the site and read every day


4pots1969

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Nothing to add to the good advices of our friend Steve ... but simply welcome on this forum SOOC!!  ;)
Gerard


Gutz

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Thanks for the quick replies and welcomes. My name is Mike but most of my friends call me Gutz (pronounced Gootz).

So that's a +2 for the full restore.

I'll definitely post more pics once I get past a couple of trips and get the bike cleaned up. If there is anything I can do to contribute let me know. If there is a specific picture I can add for you, please ask. I don't think he changed much on this bike other that the pipes, paint and a little extender to the chain guard to protect the passenger. Most of the bike should be close to how he bought it from the Inglewood, CA dealership just up the freeway. He told me he had to pay extra to get moved up the waiting list back then, because everyone wanted this bike. He painted a couple of years later because all you ever saw was the candy red. He worked at Continental Airlines and had the guys guys in the garage paint it for him to be different.

Here's my initial phase 1 (start test) plan of attack from what I've been reading.
1. Finish de-rusting the tank. This is PIA already but not as bad as the Sabre tank. I'm using cleaning vinegar from Walmart. working so far. I don't think I will need to seal it and it doesn't seem like thats the preferred method. I guess I will need to install an in-line fuel filter?
2. Take the seat off, cover all holes and give a simple green bath. Hose down and give a WD40 bath. Hose Down next day.
3. Couple of teaspoons of Marvel MO in the plugs. cover plugs and let sit for a couple of days.
4. Change oil & filter. Pan?
5. Clean Air box and replace filter.
6. turn her over from time to time to get the oil moving.
7. If she turns, clean the carbs. Do I need to go straight to a rebuild kit? I saw a deluxe rebuild kit on vintage750.com.

Please let me know what you think about the order and what I'm probably missing. Thanks in advance.

Thanks,
Mike


Steve Swan

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Looks like a great initial approach, Mike.  

i like to drop the sump pan in cases where an engine has not ran for decades, you'll find 'dirt' has settled in the pan after sitting that long.  before i make initial start of engine, i pour about 3/4 quart of oil through the #1 valve inspection opening, this way the pump will prime and not have to starve until oil gets down from the tank to the pump.  it may be a good idea to flush the oil tank if the oil is dirty, at least when the tank is empty, inspect for sludge, most oil tanks have sludge.

if you have access to an ultrasonic for cleaning the carbs, that's the most effective way to clean carbs.  other than bowl gaskets, i generally don't replace any carb parts until after i have the engine running.  other than the chrome plated slides, needles and needle jets there really are not any moving parts to wear unless the air screws have been screwed in past their stopping point.  i wound up having to replace the needles and needle jets on E2241 to get rid of a severe off idle stagger that would occur when opening the throttle off idle underway in the lower gears.  of course, clean the bowl on the fuel tap, replace the tap washers if the tap leaks.

i've never used vinegar for rust removal, but i have heard vinegar (and molasses) works really well.  i like using Oxalic acid aka wood bleach, it is available in hardware stores, very gentle and very effective.  in more severe cases of rust, i use 3% Phosphoric acid solution (Naval Jelly) in the most severe electrolysis.  any residual rust, i put 3/8" and 1/2" nuts in the tank, pack the tank in foam and cycle it through the clothes dryer (no heat.)  the result is beautiful raw steel.

probably a good idea to check valve clearances, clean/adjust or replace spark plugs, dress the points if pitted, check/adjust points gap and check ignition timing as well as adjust cam chain tension.

in 'dry' engines that've sat a long time without running, i like to put a few squirts of oil in each spark plug hole.

if you don't have a shop manual, good resource to have, an old clymers or chiltons will tell you what you need to know.

1.  is your choke arm long or short ?

2.  it looks like you carbs have the later non-28 caps ?

3.  is your tank a 19 or 17 liter ?  (there are two 17 liter tank types elsewhere and recently noted on the forum)

4.  if your tank is 19 or early 17 liter, do you have a short neck (very rare) fuel tap ?

5.  is your kill switch knob pointerless ?

6.  appears you have the short neck upper brake line ?

7.  very likely you have the later type sandcast gauge drives ?

8.  are they ferrules on your oil lines the smooth, not ribbed type ?

9.  are the oil lines smooth or webbed fabric ?

10.  does your lower steering head have the gusseting for the steering damper ?

11.  does your brake reservoir have a leveling ring ?

12.  be sure to go to "88 model distinctions," you will be able to identify the various early parts unique to 3 digit and earlier vins !

13. last piece of advice (for now!) throw no parts away !  quite a few of the parts unique to 3 digit vins are irreplaceable !



Sgt.Pinback

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Great find, Mike!

That bike is old and stood for a long time. So you have all the time to bring her back to live.

Dont change any parts unless you aks here! Even small parts as  bolts and washers.

For rust removing, eg. tank, I use that stuff:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rostio-Tankentroster-1-Liter-Konzentrat-Tankentrostung-Tank-entrosten-Rost-Tank-/121312781008?hash=item1c3ece22d0:g:UDkAAOSwEppUM7s5

Donīt know if you get it in USA.

I even use it in the ultrasonic bath to unrust small parts.

Wellcome to  the SC club!
Cheers, Uli (Leonberg, Germany)


Steve Swan

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Great find, Mike!

That bike is old and stood for a long time. So you have all the time to bring her back to live.

Dont change any parts unless you aks here! Even small parts as  bolts and washers.

For rust removing, eg. tank, I use that stuff:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rostio-Tankentroster-1-Liter-Konzentrat-Tankentrostung-Tank-entrosten-Rost-Tank-/121312781008?hash=item1c3ece22d0:g:UDkAAOSwEppUM7s5

Donīt know if you get it in USA.

I even use it in the ultrasonic bath to unrust small parts.

Wellcome to  the SC club!

i would heartily second Uli's suggestion - Take your time and do the bike right.  Catalog what you find so you have it for future use.  there are a number of restoration threads on the forum, along with knowledgeable members, you really need very few specialized tools to work on on CB750, however in restoration work, some essential shop equipment is nearly a must.  a wire wheel and a parts washer are 2 good universal items.  after decades of cleaning carbs using an old gunk bath, i bought an ultrasonic unit which  truly makes all the difference in the world as far as getting the tiny clogged air/fuel passageways back to performing the way they should.  so either find someone who you can dip your carbs in their ultrasonic or buy an inexpensive unit (there's a bunch) on ebay.


Sam

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Hi Mike!

I bought a three-digit that hadn't run in 44 years and restored it...so it can be done!

It is important that you do this right...you have a valuable piece of history there!

Steve is, as usual, 100% correct on everything he said. A few things I will add:

1. Determine what you can save and what needs to be restored. This is tougher than it sounds. I was lucky with #410 and was able to save a lot with some hard work. Not all chrome needs to be redone for example. Take your time, clean, inspect, polish and polish some more. You may find that more of your bike can be simply rescued instead of restored!

2. If you aren't willing to go all-in on certain parts of the restoration (rebuilding the motor or doing the paint for example), find someone who will do a great job for you. I'm self-taught like many of us here...so I fully endorse the idea of learning it yourself. But if you don't have the time or interest, do yourself a favor and have it done by someone you trust. If this was a 1974 CB750 I would say something different...but you have a three digit sandcast there! The holy grail of Japanese collectible motorcycles! This bike deserves the best!

3. If it were me, I would keep it candy-ruby red when it comes time to repaint. The bike will thank you for restoring its original glory! :)

Looking forward to your progress!

Sam
Ujeni Motors
Sandcast #410
Sandcast #538 Watch the restoration!
Sandcast #6592 All original daily driver.
Diecast #16608


cb7504

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Keep it as stock as possible it only helps the value. Marty K.
 



Gutz

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Yeah so that didn't work :-\  Anyway, here's where I'm at so far.

Picked it up Friday and cleaned it up. Remarkable what a difference a little SG and WD can do.
Still have a lot of rust on the rims and pitting pretty much everywhere. The valve covers are peeling badly. Is that clear coat coming off?
Cleaned the gas tank out well. Don't know how to tell if it's 17 or 19L, though.
Drained the oil. Looked clean.
Pulled the plugs. put some MMO in each hole.
Interesting Oil filter cover to show you when I get the picture thing figured out?
The engine has a broken fin. My Father-in-law says he has the piece somewhere. The rest is cleaning up and I'm sure the aluminum can shine up with some work. The fins and valve covers is a big decision point.
The frame has a lot of rust spots and I don't know if I can do anything with those. Another decision point.
The body paint is a funny one. A lot of people look at it and just love the age on it and think it's cool. I am considering getting them repaired and painted to original and doing the best I can to shine up the rest of the bike as is. Maybe one day in the future I would do the engine and the frame at the same time. Still a lot to be discovered first.
Seat is flattened and a piece and has a small tear in the coping. Looks very repairable. The guy who delivered the bike was jazzed up about it. He runs a local club (http://vintagebikeoc.com). He had a bunch of local shops that could do work and said there is a seat guy in Santa Ana that could refurbish. Great to start networking.
Headlight missing but I have the two housing pieces that have cleaned up well. I guess I need a new sealed headlight. What/who do you guys recommend for parts?

More to come later with pics.
Thanks,
Mike


Steve Swan

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nice you may still have the broken fin !

Yamiya is who i have ordered from in the past, they're really the only major source for parts, some may disagree with me on that and their prices can be higher than i like to pay.  David Silver Spares in UK and CMS in Netherlands have less of a selection and a certain amount of their stuff comes from Japan.  Western Hills Honda in Ohio still, perhaps.

then there's ebay for items no one is producing.  and there are ebay USA sellers who buy the merchandise form Japan, turn around and sell it on ebay.  when it comes to new or reproduced parts seen on ebay, i price out parts at other sources than ebay whenever possible, imo, ebay peddlers are blood-letters.    do not be stung by ebay peddler "labeetlekid,' (formerly "yankee clipper" or some such name) he's had a number of different names, has sold altered frames and often has trashy looking parts.  he's also good at listing an item, selling it, then saying he does not have it. another asinine peddler is "digidave," he lists parts at 10 and even 20 times more than the same parts can be purchased off ebay.  i think some guys have communicated with "digidave" and found him to sell his items listed on ebay for reasonable prices.  maybe dave's trying to avoid ebay fees, so he grossly overprices his items and expects people to make an offer.....  15 years ago there were less than 100 "sandcast" items listed on ebay.  no it's around 1600 items.  Many with CB750 parts to sell on ebay and who's read out forum, has become sandcast experts and list the magic word "sandcast" in their auction header.

years back finding a nice original seats were the only option we had, so nice seats were going for $750 - $1250.  Yamiya makes gorgeous red foam copies, any seat upholsterer would be challenged to duplicate and the prices on repro seats has dropped over the years, now that they are so commonly available.  if you can save your original cover, that's nice.

the amount of patina one can live with is a personal call.  bikes pre-WWII, imho, nearly any amount of patina is acceptable.  but on these more modern bikes where there's alot more aluminum, chrome and plastic, especially the Japanese bikes, unless the patina can at least somewhat respond to conservation efforts, i personally can't stand patina, unless it is uniform and "matching" throughout the entire motorcycle.  when the black paint is affected, there's only so much an ink pen can do before tossing in the towel.


UK Pete

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Hi Gutz , welcome aboard fella, i am envious that so many people are finding these real early bikes , it amazes me how many are left, all i can say is take note of all the great advise and enjoy whatever you do with it
pete


Gutz

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'll post some pics of the progress so far.

I took delivery and got to cleaning.


Bad pealing on the Valve cover, yuck! And Steve, is this the long choke arm you were asking about? and the Carb covers?

Here's the oil line


Here's a pic of the Oil Filter Cover. This is interesting because he had the fins welded on back in the day to help cool the oil. He didn't even know they started making them like that in later model years. Old time ingenuity. I'll leave it that way. The headlight trim cleaned up nicely.


This is after cleaning and chrome polish. Anybody think I can get rid of that pitting? Also, any special care in getting those stickers off?


I did the gas tank last weekend here are the before and after. Vinegar method.


After


Not sure how to tell if this is a 17 or 19L