Honda CB750 Sandcast

Thoughts on Engine Painting and Process

Wayne · 12 · 13325

Wayne

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
I have been following some restorations and the processes used to bring the engine cases, cylinders and heads back to their former glory. It appears most are painting the pieces individually and then assembling the engine. It got me thinking of production environments I have seen (automotive) where engines are assembled and the finish applied prior to being installed in the vehicle. In my experience all I have ever seen is a "long block" assembly (assembled engine minus covers etc.) being painted. I have never seen individual components painted and then assembled. Now I know today with powder coated motorcycle engines, the pieces would be powdered and baked prior to assembly. This has got me thinking though...41 years ago would Honda paint individual engine components and the assemble the engine? If it were my production line I would assemble the "long block", paint it, add covers etc. and install it in the frame.

What I'm getting at is...if they were painted as a whole the gasket edges would have paint on them. If someone is going for the gusto...a 100 point restoration and it came right down to the wire, should the engine with paint on the gasket edges win, or the one without? Maybe I've been around the crazed car resto guys too long?? Where was that grease pencil marking...??  ??? ???
[size=


markb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1249
    • View Profile
Wayne,
I've thought about this too.  What you say makes some sense but I don't ever recall seeing paint on the cylinder base and head gaskets (but I don't remember looking specifically for it).  Also, if they painted without the covers on they would have to mask those areas, especially the valve cover and that seems like a difficult process right in the middle of the motor assembly.  I've got another project coming up and would welcome feedback on this too.
Mark  
« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 08:22:40 pm by mark1b »
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Wayne

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
I thought about the valve cover area as well Mark. In my experience, again in the auto industry the motor was painted with the top of the head exposed. It was not uncommon to see some overspray if a valve cover was pulled early in the warranty period for whatever reason. Most or all would go away with more mileage. I read in the thread following Vic Worlds comments on engine paint that it was used on all engines (which makes sense) but in some cases it may have been very thin. It would be pretty easy in my mind to spray an engine on an assembly line and simply shoot on an upward angle when you get near the top of the head so you don't get too much on the valvetrain assembly. (or could they flip the engines on the line and spray downward?)

748 only has 29,000 miles on it. The paint is very evident on all areas of the engine. I'll take some electrical contact cleaner and spray around the head and base gaskets this week and see what I can see. That stuff does a good job on the dirt and oil but won't touch any paint.
[size=


Steve Swan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2705
    • View Profile
    • cb750sandcastonly.com
I do not believe the head is covered with the same substance as the crank cases, nor possibly the cylinder.

The heads i have seen have a sort of actual coating, it is thick and when it peels off it has a 'stretchy' property, as though it is some sort of rubberized heat resistant coating.  It will not wipe off with any type of solvent i have tried.  This coating on all the heads i have seen appears very different from the thin paint appearing substance on the crank cases.  This coating on the head is particularly evident on the top surface of the uppermost fin; this coating is not as thick on other areas of the head, such as lower fins or the underside of fins.  The sandcast heads' coating is not as thick as later non-sandcast heads' coating, however both the sandcast and non-sandcast heads' coatings have the same 'stretchy' properties.

The cylinder does not appear to have as thick a coating as the head.  The cylinder does appear to have the same sort of rubbery coating as the head.  I have seen this coating peel off, it is very thin, it does not flake off or wipe off like paint.

Honda's car manufacturing was at a separate plant than the motorcycles.  Honda had been producing motorcycles since 1949.  The first Honda car (actually a pickup) was the T360, first mfgr'd 1964.  I believe it could be argued Honda would not cross over their newer car manufacturing procedures to the older and more established motorcycle manufacturing procedures.  I know for a fact, at least in the case of pre-WWII motorcycle manufacturing practices had no cross over from automotive manufacturing processes.  Without solid evidence such as painted gasket edges or other signs, i don't know that we can say because the auto industry paints partially assembled engines this would be a procedure also used by the motorcycle industry.  Motorcycle factory parts management, machining, prep and assembly is not the same as automotive.  It will be intersting to see what you find, Wayne, when you clean the exposed gasket area surfaces, if you find pain on the exposed surfaces.

It would be good to have Chris chime in.  We could ask Vic World's opinion.  He has seen more sandcasts from a restorer's eyes than likely any other person on the planet.  Chris attended Vic's presentations at 2009 VMD Classic Club, so he could tell us if Vic addressed this coating vs paint issue or what Vic's opinion is.  If Chris does not know, i would be happy to drop Vic an email, i am sure he would share what he knows.  The other option is to ask Bob Jameson, he was present at Honda Motorcycle Japan from early March to late April, 1969, so it's entirely possible he saw not only the head, cyl and case castings being machined, but also saw them being painted, coated or whatever.  I am certain Bob Jameson would happy to talk to me on the telephone, he told me i could call him any time with questions or to learn more about the time he spent in Japan.

These are just my thoughts, for whatever they're worth.


Wayne

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Well, I went over the gasket areas with some electrical contact cleaner which exposed the gaskets nicely. No evidence whatsoever of paint or any other coating on the sides of the gaskets. I would almost swear as well that the parting seam in the case halves show no evidence of paint which would indicate that the halves were painted and then put together. (this one is a hard call) As Steve pointed out, 748 does seem to have inconsistencies between the cases, cylinders and head itself. The cylinders seem to be a shade darker than the cases and the head seems to have a light, almost flaky apprearing finish. (due to the heat??)

I guess I answered my own question as bizarre as it seems to me. I can't see how Honda would find it at all efficient to coat the components prior to assembly unless they had a good reason to do so. As Steve has suggested, would they have used different coatings on the hotter cylinders and cylinder head, hence the need to do the components individually? I guess at this point it's follow the leader and do what works best!  :)
[size=


markb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1249
    • View Profile
Wayne,
Interesting, thanks for checking that.  I considered painting my last project without tearing it apart but didn't mainly because of the gaskets.  Of course its much easier to clean and paint when its apart too.  Unless someone else weighs in with contrary evidence, I think I'll do my next project the same.
Mark
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Wayne

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
No problem Mark. It's something that had been in the back of my mind for a while now as I don't really want to tear 748 down with the low mileage. Compression is good and it seems OK with a leakdown test. The oil is very clean as well. I'm thinking if I do take it down it will only be the barrels and head. I just don't see the sense in ripping into the bottom end unless someone convinces me otherwise.
[size=


Steve Swan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2705
    • View Profile
    • cb750sandcastonly.com
What are you guys' opinion on the composite primary chain tensioner roller possibly being affected by age, at risk for break down when re-introduced to service ?

Same goes for the shock rubbers inside the primary driven sprocket ?  

When i rebuilt E4540, i only removed the upper end.   Did not dismantle the lower end.  The  cam chain tensioner rollers and guide was somewhat chewed up, i replaced them.  Other 750 engines i have taken apart or seen apart, seems the cam chain tensioner parts all stood best to be replaced.

Also, the valve guide seals and o-rings for head/cyl oil passageways should be replaced if engine is going back into service.


markb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1249
    • View Profile
My opinion is to replace anything rubber, idler parts, o-rings, seals, all of it, and springs too.  That's what I did on my last two motors (1 sandcast & 1 early diecast) and plan to do on my next sandcast, especially because condition is unknown and has been sitting for 30 years.  Two exceptions being the oil pump oil stopper valve seal and the rubbers in the primary sprocket both unavailable as far as I know.  Although I did see the sprocket rubbers on (I think) a German club web site that were available for members only.  Anyway, I don't ever want to tear apart the motors again and hopefully they will last another 40 years.
Mark
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


hondasan

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
My view, engine parts were painted prior to assembly - no evidence of paint on gasket edges, etc on original motors I have seen. Also, may even be easier to paint the aprts prior to assembly when there is no risk of any grease / oil / other contamination of to be painted surfaces. yes, there are more surfaces to be masked this way, but lets not forget that in mass production they would not be concerned about the need to use "easy fit " masks, and to arrange the paint to avoid critical surfcaes where ever possible.

I would agree with Steve that there seems to be more paint on the cylinder head / barrels. may be it just looks different due to the effects of heat / time, or perhaps indeed they did spray more onto the top cylinder head fin to get a good finish there. Just speculation on my part!

Concerning engine internals, I tend to replace all the chains and tensioners because a) they are still available, and b) they are 40 years old now. That said, I have stripped many engines (40+ now) now in which the rubber rollers were still soft / pliable  / undamaged (which I would not hesitate to re-use in a "rider"). Some where the rollers were hard as rock with piaeces coming off them, and some which had simply stood for so long that at the point of contact between chain and roller, a permanent imprint of the chain existed. I suspect the condition is actually down to mileage (and therefore cumulative effects of oil and temperature exposure). added to that, it is far easier to clean up and restore an engine properly if it is totally dismantled (all fasteners readily re-zinced at the same time, no paint on them, etc, etc. each to there own though.
O rings especially, and seals wherever available of course need replacement though.
Valve stem seals though do seem to suffer the most, and always replace / never re-use. Little surprise, they are in the hottest bit after all!
Springs, not at all concerned about -just measure them and re-use if in spec (my day job is in part that of a spring designer the last 25 years or so, and the Japanese knew what they were doing here, even back in '69).
The last set of valve springs I checked (out of my 400-4) were still within factory spec at 108,000 miles, and were re-fitted.

For interest, clutch plates in #5298 were measured up at 103,000 miles and were still within the new tolerance range (and so they went back in too).
Oh, and the original 45T rear wheel sprocket is still the original one at 112,000 miles -use DID / RK   heavy duty chains, lube and adjust frequently, and replace at every rear tyre change.

Sorry guys, straying off the thread here! ;D ;D
Chris R.
302/338


Wayne

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Thanks for all the input folks. I'll take the advice and follow Marks lead on re-finishing. Looks like a top to bottom overhaul is in oder when i get at it!  :)
[size=


JOHN MILES

  • Newbie
  • *
    • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Hello,
My name is JWMiles. I rebuild these engines frequent.  Looks to me like the engine cases were painted and then machined for the side covers, oil pan etc... never have I seen paint on a gasket.  I/m pretty sure they were painted prior to assembly.  JWMilescb750@gmail.com