More and more surprising!! VIN-1014046/E-1014138

[4pots1969]

Thank you KP for this support!!

[Steve Swan]

the vin font is honda font.  i suppose someone could have had honda font  metal stamps made up.  then, to go to the trouble of finding several blank sandcast crank cases to stamp to make several machines up........... ?   and then find the distinctive 9 hole transitional covers for these several cases...... ?  some of these machines are completely original in appearance with undisturbed patina.  i cannot imagine anyone contemporary or in 1970 putting together a SEVERAL fake sandcasts.  we have found other details showing the otherwise peerless factory to be capable of some "inconsistency."   i've been wrong before, but my bet is these machines are factory original.  what we need, IS someone from France who knows the story to step up and tell the story or at least what they know of the story.

[4pots1969]

Yes, who would have had the idéa to make fakes Sandcasts in 1970?
He would have needed to be maybe called Nostradamus..
Already.. Very few people knew that Sandcast had been made and there
was enough backward movement has this time to plan it..That do not hold the road!!

[Steve Swan]

as collectors and archeologists say.....  some provenance (provenir) would be hlepful to clarify/verify/substantiate the story of how French sandcasts came to exist.

[benjixt]

Hi evrybody,

i'm sandcast enthusiast and owner ( VIN 2749) .i'm from France and i know the existence of  this "French Sandcast " i'm 32 year but my Father   got a brand new cb750 in March 1970 with sandcast case . vin 10160XX.  with the " famous" clutch cover 9/10 holes.
i try to know more about this strange bike but difficult!!!
this sandcast are well know by the french

i'm think exactly like KP: that cases was spare parts and used in the regular production ( for France)  ( maybe because the volume of sale in France was not enormous) and  Honda France wasn't a prior  Customer!! Honda japan decided to fix this  "old case".....

It will stay a sandcast mistery

[CBman]

OK, lets look at it from another angle.

1. Many of these french sandcasts have not originaly stamped numbers on the crankcase, so these can´t be from production line.

2. My question is: How many units were made, and in what range ? We can see the range is from 14k to 17k, which no doubt can´t be real on the standard production line. OK, what is next explanation ? On second view there can be 200 units at beginning of 14k range and 400 units at beginning of 17k range. Also strange. because it has no sence why to made 200 units and another 400 units after 3000 bikes vere just made.

3. Why would Honda made also just only few houndreds units of special clutch covers, when mass production was just running ? Also no sence.

4. You mentioned gthat maybe Sandcasts cases vere used because thehre was lack of diecast. It is also nonsence, because in those days there vere produced SEVERAL houndreds of K0 per day. So it has no sence to make 200 houndreds K0 with sandcast engine.

OK, I want to be seen that I´m only critisizing, so here is my view on this matter. Don´t forget that every bike was tested on the end of production line. So if benjixt is telling their sandcast has it from new, so I think there could be problem during test run, or at dealership that needed the crankcase replacement. Honda had produced sandcast cases as spare parts, so somebody could use it also after 1970. What about the clutch , I think during repair, the mechanic weld original cover to fill the 10th tread hole.

So, OK somebody could bought the bike after 7k with sandcast cases, but I don´t believe there were produced sandcasts on production line. What about other french sandcast? Many of them are not stamped from Honda production. I think somebody want to make more valueable bike, or maybe these bikes were repaired by same dealer/distributor.

True is, taht some strange things could happen, but Honda on the beginning of 1970 was not so stupid to make mistake in mass production line, so sorry, but I don´t accept that these bikes were from mass production line.

[DW69K0]

Hi -

I think we are not talking about the most important objective evidence in the pictures posted of the E-1017118 as the engine casting date is 8-11, which clearly depicts the date the engine was sandcast. The E number sequence doesn't match the two engine posted in our VIN directory as the two engine numbers cast on August 11th are in the 57XX-59Xx range.

I own two Sandcasts one with a 6-13 cast date and one with a 6-28 cast date both of my motors have the E1 stamped, but are missing the third casting charactor shown in the picture which is the "T".

Can someone with an engine cast at a later date than June weigh in on the "T" casting charactor.....?

I believe the motor shown was cast on August 11, 1969 and then had the VIN number stamped at a later date based on the evidence in the picture.

Just my thoughts,
DW

[DW69K0]

By the way August 11, 1969 was a Monday, maybe that explains everything 
Maybe they messed up the stamps.
DW

[4pots1969]

Hello,
I see one 9 : 9-11 for September 11th? Was a Thursday?
and E-1 and T they mean what?
Thanks Gérard

[Steve Swan]

some major assumptions are being made with virtually no supporting evidence.

1.  the only evidence we have that these vins are Honda font is the actual font it's self.  
2.  the font appears same as Honda oem font.  as many 750 vins as i've seen, in the flesh and in pictures, i cannot and will not argue the font is not Honda oem.  based on the font, i have to assume, at the very least, 'someone' used honda font to stamp some cases.  
3.  it is only natural to assume the stampings were made by someone who had access to oem stamps.  the questions to be asked are:  A.  WHO had access to these stamps and B.  WHERE did these stampings occur ?  C.  WHEN did these stampings occur ?  D.  WHY were sandcast cases stamped with 14xxx through 17xxx vin range ?
4.  the cases are 9 hole sandcast cases.

No one YET has provided evidence of who stamped the font or where, when or why the stamping took place.  WHY these cases were used and WHO authorized the use of these case, we don't know.  (assuming use of the cases was authorized.)

"benjixt" notes his father bought a "k0" complete machine w/ sandcast cases new in 1970.  "benjixt" it would be nice to see some original paperwork showing chain of ownership from Honda, to dealer, to retail owner; such as a manufacturer's statement of origin and copy of original title.  (and, what is your name  ?!?  i wrote a couple years ago asking members who post to share their names, as a courtesy to us all so we can get to know each other better !)

i can only ASSUME,

1.  the sandcast cases were stamped at the factory.  
2.  the cases were stamped by a dealer or dealers after the cases left the factory.  
3.  a private party got oem stamps and stamped up several blank sandcast cases.

any of these 3 scenarios raises a number of questions.

the bottom line is WE DON'T DON'T KNOW.  with no FIRST HAND INFORMATION or more objective evidence, only assumptions can be made.  

"CBman" you ask good questions.  are you saying not all "French sandcasts" have stamped sandcast cases ?  How do you know this?  some cases are blank ?  You are saying "many" French sandcasts ?  How many ?  i thought less than 10 of these "French sandcasts" exist.  i do not know.  does someone know how many "French sandcasts have been identified to date ?     (and "CBman" what is your name )  

i'm not trying to offend anyone ! but i find not knowing who i am talking to annoying and discourteous to the group.  

So:  again.  the cases were either:  1.  fitted at the factory, 2. fitted at the dealer or 3.  stamped by private hands.  

Addressing 1, 2, & 3 above:

1.  beginning at 14xxx, why use sandcast cases on the factory assembly line in this vin range?  make no sense.  doesn't seem like anything logical for honda to do.  but we know other parts we've seen on sandcasts are the same yet different parts.   we have no explanation.  i won't theorize why, in vin range 14xxx through 17xxx, sandcast cases would have been used at the factory and not die cast cases.  without hard conclusive evidence, i don't see any proof of 100% confidence a few sandcast cases were NOT fitted at the factory in the vin range of 14xxx -17xxx.  
2.  in the scenario of blank cases being fitted by the dealer (or dealers) after bikes left the factory, in the case of some defect or case damage a replacement case would have been used.  and a dealer or dealers wold have oem vin stamps.
3.  another observation; the alignment on all these "French sandcast" vins is perfect or nearly perfect.  so it seems unlikely a dealer or a private party would have stamped these vins.  
4.  perfect alignment and oem font would be reasonable to suggest vins stamped at factory and not after cases left factory.

only someone who was present when these vins were stamped and these engines were fitted could give the answer.  this is another reason any official or otherwise verified provenance could help shed some light on the "French sandcast mystery."

myself, i choose to believe the "French sandcasts" are authentic for the following reasons.  
1.  i believe the font is oem Honda.  
2.  some of the machines have undisturbed patina which "appears" to date back to original assembly from when machine was new.  
3. "benjixt" says he knows the bike's provenance from when the bike was purchased new.  
4.  i can't imagine any motive in 1970 to put several of these machines together as a ruse or deception.  
5.  the only way i can be dissuaded from believing these machines are authentic is to prove at least #1 & #3 not true.

The "French sandcasts"  are a mystery.  we all have our opinions.  good entertainment.

[rickhahn]

I would like to add my thought's to this debate.We all know that Honda changed to Dye cast cases at a certain time / date  simply because of costs and time involved in sandcast moulding,  They could not keep  up Production with the World Wide demand for the  750 which  they did not really anticipate. The changes to the first bikes 0-300 and 300 -1000  and 1000-2000 and so on shows that they were  in a hurried state with development / production ,hence all the confusion we have with the early Vin's.  So in saying that on the day they changed production to dyecast cases  there must have been a overlap in production of sand castcast cases,as to cover production while they perfected the dyecast system. This overlap could have been  used later on simply to keep up  production as the demand grew and use all the old stock cases .             

[Steve Swan]

and i've heard distribution of cb750's to France was delayed or behind schedule...... ?

[cb7504]

 I lived in Japan for several years in the early 70's through mid 80's while there i tried to purchase some of the Honda specialty tools to work on my Honda motorcycles. The only way i could get them was to have my Japanese friend order them through his dealership. Private parties were not allowed to purchase Honda specialty tools. One of the items i tried to buy was the dye set used to stamp the vin /serial numbers. Honda would not even let dealerships purchase them. If you look at other re-stamped replacement cases it is pretty easy to tell they are not the same as the Honda font. If i remember correctly there was a CB750 at the mid Ohio get together in 2009 that had replacement cases with the vin stamped on the lower right side of the cylinders.   Marty K.       

[Steve Swan]

Thanks Marty, for sharing your first hand experience attempting to purchase vin stamps.  

it makes sense Honda would not release vin stamps and does reinforce the idea only the factory issued and stamped vins at the time of vehicle manufacture.  

it also makes sense the factory would record these vins and keep records what countries, what distributors vins were released to.  and i would imagine, distributors kept records what vins were shipped to what dealers and dealers kept records what vins were sold to what retail buyer.

factory/distributors/dealers keeping/tracking/managing vin records makes sense for a number of reasons...  1. sales, 2. warranty, 3. recall, 4. service and 5. legal

Honda (or any vehicle manufacturer) not releasing vin stamps would be be a way to not only manage/track accuracy of distribution and record activity of units, but also contain liability for legal risks such as theft, malfunction, defects.  i can understand Honda would not want ANYONE other than the factory assigning or altering vins.  (a few years back, an altered Evin in factory font was discovered.  perhaps KP has this picture of this vin, as i know he collects pictures of vin stampings.)

the above logic would seem to lend credibility the "French sandcast" vins are factory authentic.  personally, i've always assumed the factory issued these "French sandcasts" vins.  

we only have ONE "French sandcast" vin in the VIN Directory.  it would be really nice if we had EVERY known frame/engine "French sandcast" vin.

Can our French brothers put together as complete a record as possible of "French sandcast" frame/engine vins know to exist

ps - machine at 2009 meet; Steve Frampton of Canada had the 325 framed bike with a set of replacement cases also stamped with 325 on the right side of cylinders.  the frame font was factory; the font on cylinders was not.

[Steve Swan]

a little off topic, but Chris R recorded in the VIN Directory, the factory altered vin i was thinking of.... "926/952 Eng# factory altered from 951"

i KNOW we had pictures of this factory altered vin and i am CERTAIN there is a discussion of this vin buried SOMEWHERE in this DB.....  (i looked for the thread, but cannot find it.)