Honda CB750 Sandcast

Steve's #658 UPDATE

Tango911 · 33 · 15042

kmb69

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 307
    • View Profile

Tango911

  • Newbie
  • *
    • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
Thanks for the email and phone call.  I appreciate the advice and info.   Looks like this three digit will be getting restored starting early to late summer.



kp

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1806
    • View Profile
If you are parting this bike out you will certainly make more than selling as a whole Just a shame to see these bikes being sold off for parts but then the collectors/restorers need to get their parts from some source and that is generally from people parting out early bikes. We have seen early bikes being parted out in recent times and the bidding is certainly brisk with parts selling for better than average money
KP
PS Yep, I know many won't agree with what I've posted but no point in howling me down, it's just a view that needs to be explored
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 04:08:44 pm by kp »
Yabba Dabba KP


kmb69

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 307
    • View Profile
KP, Couldn't agree with you more on getting some needed parts, but do you really think a 3 digit SC would bring more in parts than say that recent example on eBay that apparently just sold for $23,100.00? Maybe on a good day, $3500 for an original motor, $2500 for an original frame, got a long way to go to make it up on the beads and trinkets. I just bought that last 4 digit basket case, complete bike, for $4500.00. Not howling, just asking.


kp

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1806
    • View Profile
Hi Keith
I agree with you entirely about a 3 digit and do know you don't howl  ;D As I posted earlier, a restored 3 digit is worth good money, however, my thoughts were based more on the question posted about restore vrs part it out. Looking at 658, it is a bike in need of a lot of parts, has a non-original set of cases etc etc, so it would seem to me it would be a labour of love and money to get it to the high standard (and high $$ level). In any case, the non stamped engine will always be a problem. I'm really not sure what it would sell for "as is" but think it should realise around $15k+++ parted out. Maybe I'm over-estimating the parts value though.
Yabba Dabba KP


Steve Swan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 2705
    • View Profile
    • cb750sandcastonly.com
KP, Couldn't agree with you more on getting some needed parts, but do you really think a 3 digit SC would bring more in parts than say that recent example on eBay that apparently just sold for $23,100.00? Maybe on a good day, $3500 for an original motor, $2500 for an original frame, got a long way to go to make it up on the beads and trinkets. I just bought that last 4 digit basket case, complete bike, for $4500.00. Not howling, just asking.


Keith, i paid $4.5k for E254 around 2006.  i think both you and KP are right.

that 3 digit (7xx?) that just sold on ebay is not the same bike dollar-wise as a 3 digit under the 300 - 400 vin range.  other than a very few parts and one less zero, vins 100-300 are precious little different from any 2 digit.

a few digits beyond vin 400, vins are nearly the same as any of the 4 digit bikes up thru vin 4148.  i believe the early 3 digits have their own price range, separate from later 3 digit units.  just like lh horn vinss are viewed generally more desirable than rh horn vins.

depending on who's bidding to win a part to complete whatever vin they need parts for, i think it's entirely possible parted out is worth more than together, especially if the parts are coming off a "scab." and, depending on the variables affecting making up a fickle day on ebay.  

i can't imagine attempting in today's climate restoring a sandcast with nos and staying away from repro parts.  some nos parts have become nla, especially nos gauges.  if one's using repro parts, prob can keep price down significantly compared to finding/buying nos.  

that 7xx ebay bike was no scab and brought close to what it's worth, imho.  parted out, it's hard to imagine the bike bringing as much or more then the $23.1k figure.   and it's hard to imagine doing a nos or original parts restoration much under $23.1k, much less a restoration with a few key repro parts for under $23.1k.  so, maybe that 7xx bike would be worth more dead than alive.

so many variables affecting values;  parts bikes, basket cases, complete bikes, running vs rolling, vin ranges, original vs repro, integrity of restoration, buyer being saavy of correctness, etc.

personally, i hate to see any bike parted out, but i've parted out bikes myself. agreed, if bikes were not parted out, it would be an even stiffer course for making our restorations right.  and i've restored more than one bike starting with a parts book and literally a handful of parts.  and in some cases paid dearly for what parts i needed when i found them.  232 needed a 19 L tank.  i bid to win and win i did.... paid $2.6k for that nineteener....  paid $1.2k for an 11 hole like nos seat.   Paid $1.1k for a set of nos gauges.  all this was nearly 10 years ago.  Seen a total of 3 ninteeners on ebay since 2000.  seen only 1 original 11 hole seat since 2000.  when's the last time we saw a set of nos gauges on ebay ?  My how time flies !!!!!

in order to test the "worth more dead than alive theory," i think Mark should part out vin 97 on ebay giving reference in his auction to the authenticity of his parts as seen in his restoration thread........  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


UK Pete

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 337
    • View Profile
I agree bikes do need to be parted out, otherwise what chance would i stand building my sandcast pictured below, and as for repro parts , i hazzard as guess that 90% of members here who have restored a sandcast or early K0 have used repro parts, for example if you had to replace a sandcast seat, you would probably wait till the end of your life and never see a nos one, if you found a secondhand one there is no way the foam is going to be good, you have to do whatever necessary to restore bikes, so people parting out bikes early or late vin are providing a much needed service, i have to say it does break my heart when i do see a good bike parted out , but needs must and all that
pete
 



markb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1249
    • View Profile
in order to test the "worth more dead than alive theory," i think Mark should part out vin 97 on ebay giving reference in his auction to the authenticity of his parts as seen in his restoration thread........  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
There have been days I've thought about it.  ::)

As far as parting out I'm not opposed to it (except when I didn't get them  ;) ).  I've gotten some parts that I wouldn't have gotten any other way.  I agree it would be a shame to part out a complete, correct specimen but even then there may be several more bikes that are brought back to life.  After the work I have into putting 97 together I probably won't be taking it apart but I think I could make more money parting it out than selling it complete,  if my goal was to make money.  ;D
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


kmb69

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • Posts: 307
    • View Profile
All valid points and KP you are correct in your speculation of value regarding the unstamped cases even though they are Sandcast replacements. I guess I made my assessment in this case after talking to Steve and learning what he would like to realize for this bike. KP may be correct. He might get close by parting it out since he does have an original set of Lotus roots. Mark is also correct if the goal is just to make money. I am most certainly biased and just normally think restoration if there's a pretty good starting point and it's a titled frame, especially a 3 digit version.


patriotcommercial

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Parting out sounds like a way to get the value out of the bike, but it rarely works out that way.

What happens is that you end up selling the valuable stuff right away, then you get stuck with the rest of the bike for a very long time, and rarely sell all the parts.

I have been following the fate of two eBay sellers that are selling parted out sandcasts, they shall remain anonymous. 

Seller one list every single part, even small screw sets, at very high prices.  I follow his auctions, and he almost never sells anything.

Seller two who we all know lists just the big stuff and sells about half of it at low prices.  He always bid on his own items.  I have bought a half dozen items from him.  Each item I am the only bidder on the item, then at the very last minute  a mysterious bidder out bids me.  I call his shop, and with my tongue in my cheek , I ask him if he has another one he will sell for the price of the winner.  I have bought several items this way. 

I have also noticed seller two will list the same item in numerous auctions at the same time.  He has screwed up and has used the same pictures in different auctions, he has at least three alias I know of.

I don't really have a problem with his practices, he is just trying to get the most he can get, he is searching for the market value on stuff that is hard to price.

But if you watch ebay carefully they list the same stuff time and time again, most of it rarely sells in a true fashion.  They bid on their own stuff to make it look like it sells.

I personally don't believe you can sell all the parts or even most of the parts of a complete bike in a period of time less than a long one.

I am very active in a local chapters of two national clubs, VJMC and AMCA.  I have know MANY members who thought they could part of a rare bike and make some money over the market value of the complete bike.  It usually ends with them offering the partially disassembled bike free to anyone who will get it out of their garage by the weekend !

Don't get me wrong, you can part out Bikes, but rarely do you sell all the parts, usually the cosmetic stuff that can be made to look new will go in a reasonable amount of time, the wear items that can't be reconditioned will linger long enough that you will have noticeable change in the color of your hair !


kp

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1806
    • View Profile
I'm sort of half way with you on this. The facts are that many items on a sandcast are worth the same as if it belonged to a K1. The rare items will always sell and for big bucks whereas the rest is just scrap value. If I was to part out a mid run 3 digit VIN bike with all the bits this is how it would go. I have based my estimates giving moderate values based on OK parts without damage
Starting from the front wheel and moving back
double cut fender $300
disc calliper $150
front wheel $80
brake hoses $300
forks $150
top triple clamp $300
bottom triple clamp $50
junction for brake hoses $150
headlight shell #1 marking $150
fork ears $100
speedo and tacho cables $300
instruments $600
LH switch $30
RH switch (early) $300
master cylinder $350
early master cylinder cap $400 +++
mirrors $200
mid run tank $800
early petcock $350
early seat $2000 +++
head, cylinders, internals etc $500
thin lip alternator cover $500 +++
early 9 hole clutch cover $500 (late maybe $250)
early oil hoses $500
early oil tank $250
early carbs $1000 (with 28 caps add $1000)
early 2 hole air box $800 (mid $500)
air box brackets $200
early intake air box rubbers $100+++
cam cover $200
spigots for exhaust $150
clamps for exhaust $350
early brake pedal $300 +++
early side cover badges $250
side covers $200
wiring harness $200
engine case (assume small pad) $3500
sandcast frame $2000 ++++
shocks $100
early stand $200
rear wheel $600
engine fastener set $200
all other bolts #8 $200
rear fender $200
Other stuff such as swing arm , seat clamp, indicators,  etc etc etc say $500
I've certainly missed stuff here
Hey I'm at $20,000 and over and I believe I'm being conservative
Add a set of genuine LR exhausts  in good order then add $5000
Can I add that of the 2 early bikes parted out in the last 2 years by the sellers I think are being flagged, I placed a watch on every part they had for sale.(I also bought a fair swag of the items concerned) and in both cases these parts realised over $16,000 for both sellers and they didn't have some of the parts I listed. No early seat and only 1 had a tank and carbs
The truth is these machines will reap the sellers good rewards for average parts
The reality is that one of these sellers lists everything as being sandcast and a lot of his junk doesn't sell. But believe me, if it's a rare part off an early bike it will sell first time every time and for big $$$
Hope this helps
KP
Yabba Dabba KP


Tango911

  • Newbie
  • *
    • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
Some great info there guys,  much appreciated!   Should I mock the bike up to see what all is missing.  I know most if not all the high dollar parts are here. 

?



patriotcommercial

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
KP, you show about fifty parts with prices.

 Assuming all the parts are reusable, you have to box and package, and ebay costs (small but they add up) and pay for shipping. 

Then add in a value to all the time you spend cleanings, photographing, listing the parts, packaging, etc.

I agree it can be done, but it is probably for someone who has an easy daily schedule, with extra time on their schedule.

I recently started an experiment with used parts.  I have restored two old pieces, a brake rod from a sand cast, and a chain guard from a dirt bike. I refinished both and listed them on ebay.  I am trying to see if ready to go parts are easier to sell.  So far no offers, but I will see how it goes.


kp

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 1806
    • View Profile
I only listed those parts worth $$ to show what a bike is worth broken up. Sure, there is much more but if you want to list everything it would only add maybe $1k more. I forgot the chain guard, horn, recessed switch and steering lock.
It sure isn't an easy job doing it as you point out, but time is an opportunity cost to the seller. Postage is a cost to the buyer not the seller. If one wants to take the time to do it; it can pay off in the long run. If the owner doesn't want to go to the trouble then sell it whole, I'm not advocating either way. I certainly would not value 658 as a buyer at more than $10 to $12k. It may realise more as a whole but I would be surprised if it did although eBay is fickle marketplace
Yabba Dabba KP


patriotcommercial

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
What's your take on the recent Sandcast that sold on ebay for $23,000. 

Was that a high price or market value ?

How about the impact of original condition relative to price ??

I went to the Las Vegas Auction two weeks ago, didn't see any Sandcasts for sale.  But the other CB 750's went for high prices in my opinion.