The Sandcast after The Sandcast... A myth?? No, just a reality!!

[benjixt]

Salut Steve,

je PENSE que

le premier revendeur en France étais Pierre Psalty ( n'existe plus)

le plus vieux revendeur " toujour en activité " est Honda "Werther" situé a  NICE cote d'Azur a commencé sont activité en exclusif avec Honda  en 1963 et est toujours revendeur Honda..

 

[Aurelia B20]

Steve, Psalty was the oldest Honda dealer in France, but has ceased its activity today.
And he became Yamaha exclusive during the 80's after a falling out with Honda France ...

I think one of the oldest Honda dealer in France, always in activity, is Japauto in Paris, and Pithioud in Lyon.

edit : benjixt is right, Werther is probably the oldest Honda dealer in France, Japauto and Pithioud started with Honda in 1967 or 1968 ...

[4pots1969]

But at first motorcycles were not imported from Japan but imported from Germany...
Here are some advertisements from magazines in the 60s...

Patrick et Benjamin, it's pretty good to participate in conversations... but it must be done all the time and not just to correct an error on my part... And this will be even more interesting !!
Thanks, Gerard

[Aurelia B20]

First exclusive importer in France was "Ets Psalty" in Paris, in 1961, under the direction of "European Honda Motor Trading Gmbh" established in Hamburg (Germany).

Yes Gerard, as I said bikes were imported in France by Psalty via Hamburg in Germany.

Thanks for posting these pictures, maybe you could thank the original poster of these pics, www.zseft-zundapp.com 

[Steve Swan]

Is it possible to talk to any of the old early dealers or their staff  that may have seen or known about these French sandcasts ?

Have any 14xxx-17xxx vin sandcasts been discovered in Germany ?

[4pots1969]

Thanks for the link Patrick...

I think they could talk about it today if they had overview in 1969 that the engines were sandcast ... But I think they are passed by without noticing...

To my knowledge no 14xxx and 17xxx would be spent by Germany ... Because if that were true the Germans would have kept them for themselves ... What I can understand !!
Legend has it that these series sandcast 14000 and 17000 were mistakenly arrived in Spain before coming to France, but this story is to be taken very cautiously because it has no real basis ...
There would also sandcast in 12xxx series after Philippe Cadier but I can not say anything because never seen anything ... Maybe he could tell us more on the subject ...

[CBman]

Steve:
French CB750 were different from german sandcast, so no german bikes. French K0 were specific just for France. There were several versions of CB750 for europian countries with small differences in some parts. So there were about 6-7 sandcasts versions on the world. First sold sandcasts to public came to France in August 69.
Only very first bikes were imported to France via german port. All first Honda bikes for all EU countries were imported through Germany, untill the Benelux EU headoffice was found about beginning of 60´.
That is why, the very first EU sandcast introduction was in February 69 in Holland. Later in France and than in UK.
John

[Sgt.Pinback]

Steve:
French CB750 were different from german sandcast, so no german bikes. French K0 were specific just for France. There were several versions of CB750 for europian countries with small differences in some parts. So there were about 6-7 sandcasts versions on the world. First sold sandcasts to public came to France in August 69.
Only very first bikes were imported to France via german port. All first Honda bikes for all EU countries were imported through Germany, untill the Benelux EU headoffice was found about beginning of 60´.
That is why, the very first EU sandcast introduction was in February 69 in Holland. Later in France and than in UK.
John

To my knowledge, German / Netherland and French KO´s had the "HMCB750" pipes.

German/Netherland KO´s had the small blinker/tail light, French KO had the big as ROW had.

[Steve Swan]

I ask not if dealers would know French bikes were sandcast......!  

I ask to know if people from those day know firsthand story (who, where, when, how they arrived) of that group of vins.  

Do i understand correctly.... ? ?  First sandcast (6-7?) to France August 1969....  ?  These sandcasts 14xxx - 17×××...?

And in North America, August 1969, the sandcast 74xx...?

7xxx August 69 North America.  14xxx August 1969, France.  Do i understand correctly?

[Sgt.Pinback]

Those were just CB750 then.

And the whole world desperately wanted them.
No idea why they took some old cases for France.
Maybe this was a way to get some extra bikes imported.

[4pots1969]

Those were just CB750 then.

And the whole world desperately wanted them.
No idea why they took some old cases for France.
Maybe this was a way to get some extra bikes imported.

I do not think they were for France, it's just chance... They could go to Germany, England, the USA and even just stay home in Japan... The more legitimate they would arriving in England because they had not received...

The "old cases" were merely the emergency solution while Diecast output to respond to the request that has literally exploded !! They had no choice but to dip into reserves "old cases sandcast"...
It was said they had boosted production Sandcast casings in full production Diecast but for me is a crazy idea...
Casting stamps anyway dates correspond to 1969...

[CBman]

Steve:
I was answering your question: "Have any 14xxx-17xxx vin sandcasts been discovered in Germany ?"

It is not possible, while bikes for France had to be just for France to pass regulation for lighting and so on. So these can´t appear in  Germany or other countries, while they have different model of CB750.

Gerard:
same about that 14xxx-17xxx would be for UK. There were just officially imported bikes from frame number 10xxx and especially UK CB750s were different than bikes for another countries. So hard to be possible.

Strange there is so big spread among 14xxx and 17xxx. Hard to beleive, that Honda will make 3000 bikes with snadcast cases, or just to replace random diecast series with sandcast cases. And question is, why Honda would make any special new clutch cover9/10? It has no sence. It costs money and time.
It would be nice to see any really completely original french snadcast CB750, not restored, not modified. I think this could be only proof that Honda did it, not local importer or dealer, or customers.

[kp]

This is a very informative and educational topic and I thank our French members for the discussion. The fact that you guys know so much about what was sold and the numbers sold is way ahead of other countries outside the US. In Australia we know dip shit about those early imports. A sandcast is a sandcast regardless what the number stamped on the case says so keep the discussion going. It would be an amazing discovery to find other sandcast engines in other countries. Our good friend Tom Courtney said some years ago that such an engine was "maybe/supposed" to have been sold in Australia. KP

[4pots1969]

Steve:
I was answering your question: "Have any 14xxx-17xxx vin sandcasts been discovered in Germany ?"

It is not possible, while bikes for France had to be just for France to pass regulation for lighting and so on. So these can´t appear in  Germany or other countries, while they have different model of CB750.

Gerard:
same about that 14xxx-17xxx would be for UK. There were just officially imported bikes from frame number 10xxx and especially UK CB750s were different than bikes for another countries. So hard to be possible.

Strange there is so big spread among 14xxx and 17xxx. Hard to beleive, that Honda will make 3000 bikes with snadcast cases, or just to replace random diecast series with sandcast cases. And question is, why Honda would make any special new clutch cover9/10? It has no sence. It costs money and time.
It would be nice to see any really completely original french snadcast CB750, not restored, not modified. I think this could be only proof that Honda did it, not local importer or dealer, or customers.

John, I know your skepticism for Sandcast after 7414 ....
And I completely respect your opinion ... because no one was prepared to see out of nowhere Sandcast in series 14 and 17... This is the icing on the cake for certain where the grain of sand in the gears for others...
But think that they were made by a dealer and they are not 100% orignale Honda factory does not seem reasonable...
For reference : The sandcast E-1014149 with 1,500 miles is 98% original except for the paint candy, 2 tires and 4 mounting bolts for a front engine housings protects had been mounted by the first owner and the 4 bolts were lost...
On the last picture is fitted with a flat handlebars like Kawa of the time in France, it changes but I think it suits him rather well ...
I took these pictures myself and the advertising for Coke is involuntary!!

[Steve Swan]

Gerard, ditto what KP said.  Thank you for such great posts and pictures.  to write  the good stuff you write, using a translator, takes persistence, perseverance, and TRUE passion for motorcycles.