Put back on sale "28" set over the top

[Steve Swan]

i TOTALLY get where you guys are coming from.  i've held your views and still hold them, within reason.

applying your rationale, EVERY restoration is a fake.  new paint makes the machine fake.  new chrome makes the machine fake.  new zinc makes the machine fake.  not having original tires and tubes makes the machine fake.  not having Japanese air in the tires makes the machines fake.

goes back to what i've said in the past, "original only once."

CBman, would you please sign your posts using your given name instead of "cbman?"

[UK Pete]

That makes all vic world bikes fake including the Honda museum bike , USA museum bike, and the pre production bike that just sold, and just about every sandcast out there , unless there is one still in the crate
I do also totally respect all points made but then i dont believe that anyone has a totally untouched bike, it becomes a bit silly to expect this bike scene to carry on without certain parts getting remade, there is a fine balance of whats acceptable and whats not
pete

[4pots1969]

When the conversation begins to ignite a little it is that the truth disturbs..
And I too she disturbs me just like you. It's good, and I find it very positive.
Who speaks parts situated in your list Steve?  Why do you try to cloud the issue?
There are parts which we have has my sense not the right to copy afin later to be able to find itself there, you will see in a few years that my reasoning was not false.. There at the moment we have enough backward movement to manage this situation.
I want to hurt nobody and I want just to try to pull the alarm before he is too late.. That's it.
Then, you will make what you want..

Gerard

[Steve Swan]

Not to worry, Gerard !  i understand what you are saying !

[Steve Swan]

That makes all vic world bikes fake including the Honda museum bike , USA museum bike, and the pre production bike that just sold, and just about every sandcast out there , unless there is one still in the crate
I do also totally respect all points made but then i dont believe that anyone has a totally untouched bike, it becomes a bit silly to expect this bike scene to carry on without certain parts getting remade, there is a fine balance of whats acceptable and whats not
pete

ahhh....  the refreshing sweetness of a rationale mind.

[4pots1969]

Not to worry, Gerard !  i understand what you are saying !

It pleases me Steve that you understood the sense of my message even if you do not share my opinion because I tore away with the translator!! 

[ashimotok0]

The one part I wish someone would repro is the rolled rear rim as you are at the mercy of rip off merchants on Ebay and it is also part common the a lot of K0 diecasts. Some of the rusty rims that get rechromed look downright dangerous to me if the bike is used as it should be on the road. Personally I would only consider rechroming a rim if it had very minor chrome pitting. What price safety? Some chromers in the UK refuse to touch wheel rims now for safety reasons.

Cheers ... AshD

[Steve Swan]

Not to worry, Gerard !  i understand what you are saying !

It pleases me Steve that you understood the sense of my message even if you do not share my opinion because I tore away with the translator!! 

Gerard, i also share your opinion.  i'm just a little more willing to use repro parts in CERTAIN situations.

what i want to know is, who is 'cbman' ?  is cbman his birth name or a fake name ?        will the real cbman please stand up and introduce himself ?     

[UK Pete]

I totally agree with Gerard, that producing repro of available parts is way to hell. It is not true, that Sandcast´s  parts are not available. You can buy everything you want on Ebay, even complete original sandcast with 3 digit VIN. OK, not everyday, but if you will be looking for something, you will find it. I´m talking about original no number mufflers, first red foam seat and 28 cabs. But thrue is, that nearly nobody will pay it. So that is main reason why you are producing repro and buying it. People producing and selling repro are only moneymakers for me.

As stewe asked: "or if i use a good solid exactly like original reproduction part instead of a heavily repaired original part, this makes my 1927 project a fake ?" Yes, from my opinion it is fake.

Ok stewe, so where is the limit of mixture of original parts and repro parts? If you will build all new sandcast from repro parts, do you think you will have sandy? No, you will have copy, which is for me priceless.

I still don´t understand how anybody could be offering copy of owners manual here for 40 bucks few years ago. Why You can still buy original one and even for first Sandy. So why is somebody making repro? It has only three reasons.
1. That person wants it immediately
2. He wants to have it cheap
3. He wants to earn money on anybody (Honda) job
In all cases this person is NOT motorcycle enthusiast for me. True collector and lover of this bike wants only original one.

If you will like to buy copies, it is possible that during few years we will have 10 000 sandcast´s bikes on the market, and not only 7414. This is not sci-fi, but reality that just happened on other bikes.

What made Sandy rare was its originality and quite low production figures. But this spirit with all these repro bikes is going to be gone.

One thing is for sure, no one is going to reproduce sandcast frames and sandcast engines, so there is no way we will have 10,000 sandy's out there, 6 or 700 maybee but , only with original engines and frames,  and a few repro parts here and there
pete

[kp]

An interesting read this thread but I am not sure I agree with our friends CBman and 4 pots. No bike unless in a crate or untouched can be unmolested and by saying buy a overpriced second hand part can be fitted and all is right. A wrinkle tank can be one of 3 varieties and a later wrinkle tank on an early (under 2000 VIN) bike just won't do if the argument is to be accepted. Do I accept a later wrtink;e tank on an early bike Sure I do if that is what is available.
However I think everyone is entitled to their view so the argument is really a nonsense. If restorers want to use only period/model correct parts then that is their choice (which is what I aim for) but don't ever claim the bike is original or indeed totally correct. However accidents happen, bikes get knocked etc so at some point necessity requires a replacement part which brings me to my main reason for adding to the thread.
I fully agree with comments made about the reproduction parts industry. I certainly don't have any issue with reproduction parts however all too often the reproduction parts are very poor in quality and authenticity to original and for this we should all boycott such sloppy design and sale. Nevertheless there are some absolutely superb reproduction parts out there especially some of the stuff carried by Yamiya. Not all but some. You want a set of LR exhausts then no used sets are even good enough to reuse so Yamiya is the only alternative. Yes a good set of No # or HM300 are an alternative but not for me I will go the repop route every time. Same for the seat as well. What irks me is when somebody claims original when they are not
Final comment. There is now way in hell that Pete will get his bike back to pristine unless he uses a good dose of quality used or repop parts. Do we sanction he parts out what he has or restore. I suspect Pete wants to restore so I say go use whatever is available to get your project completed that in the end satisfies and fulfils your need
I certainly agree with most of Steve's view and know he is one who only resorts to repop when all else is not available.
II prefer to reuse original spokes where I can
KP

[4pots1969]

KP and All,

Quote: but I am not sure I agree with our friends CBman and 4 pots.
Kp, you are not thus sure you have no certainty what is already good..
I believe that I do not manage to make the message pass..
Maybe my very bad English?? Where then you maybe read between the lines??
I question not at all the refabrication of certain necessary and vital parts has the recontruction where the maintenance of Sandcast.. We fully agree?? It is clear as the pure water?? There, you follow me well all??
This Top "28" mark a period with a modification of the factory Honda has 1017629, There is thus now a part of remplacement.. Okay?? The story of this part "Top 28" stops there//!!  Because the page was turned definitively!!
It is necessary to stop telling to me that the Sandcast is going to die if we do not redo copy "Top 28"..
These arguments are worth nothing...  And to redo it copy is for has me big error, especially yew we cannot differentiate them original parts. By copying out this rare parts "Top 28" that we can confuse with the original parts you contribute without realizing it (for the moment..) to depreciate the SANDCAST.. And if you understand that, I think that you will agree with me. You still not claim to be able to redo the story of the SANDCAST?? In any case are certain that I will not follow you on this path which leads nowhere..
The ultimate (I like this English word!!) solution would be to make a marking on copies not to confuse them with original parts..  And that, it is to please the members that they want to gaunt absolutely copy!!
It would allow to know how to recognize copy for those who would acquire them several years later..
No?? You do not believe??

I shall add nothing more..
Now the ball is in your court.. To you to know that you go to make it!!
With my friendship,

Gerard.

[Steve Swan]

KP and All,

Quote: but I am not sure I agree with our friends CBman and 4 pots.
Kp, you are not thus sure you have no certainty what is already good..
I believe that I do not manage to make the message pass..
Maybe my very bad English?? Where then you maybe read between the lines??
I question not at all the refabrication of certain necessary and vital parts has the recontruction where the maintenance of Sandcast.. We fully agree?? It is clear as the pure water?? There, you follow me well all??
This Top "28" mark a period with a modification of the factory Honda has 1017629, There is thus now a part of remplacement.. Okay?? The story of this part "Top 28" stops there//!!  Because the page was turned definitively!!
It is necessary to stop telling to me that the Sandcast is going to die if we do not redo copy "Top 28"..
These arguments are worth nothing...  And to redo it copy is for has me big error, especially yew we cannot differentiate them original parts. By copying out this rare parts "Top 28" that we can confuse with the original parts you contribute without realizing it (for the moment..) to depreciate the SANDCAST.. And if you understand that, I think that you will agree with me. You still not claim to be able to redo the story of the SANDCAST?? In any case are certain that I will not follow you on this path which leads nowhere..
The ultimate (I like this English word!!) solution would be to make a marking on copies not to confuse them with original parts..  And that, it is to please the members that they want to gaunt absolutely copy!!
It would allow to know how to recognize copy for those who would acquire them several years later..
No?? You do not believe??

I shall add nothing more..
Now the ball is in your court.. To you to know that you go to make it!!

With my friendship,

Gerard.

Gerard, dear friend.    Your point is very clear.  and well taken.

[ken736cc]

This is an interesting discussion. Most sandcast models would never be restored without the use of  reproduction parts.  It is not economically viable to purchase any or all required parts as new old stock.  Some parts do not exist, and some parts are priced too high.  You cannot be certain of the history of the motorcycle unless you owned it for its entire life.  Some parts may have been changed.  Is it acceptable if the motorcycle does not have the original points, or the same spark plugs as it left the factory?  If you take this to the extreme (this is a ridiculous example) I would need Japanese air from October 1969 to fill my tires!
There are some parts that will be unusable due to age and deterioration. Red seat foam is an example. It does not hold up well after 40 years. Same with brake hoses. I will be using reproduction seat and hoses on my bike.
I think the correct discussion is to make sure that good reproduction parts are not being sold or represented as new old stock genuine Honda.
I would like to thank the companies and individuals who take the time and effort to make these parts available to us.

[CBman]

Hi all,
you are definitely right, that the bike is only original as it left the factory. But I was writing about original parts and replica parts.
Your argument, that the bike should have original air in tires is extreme, and not correct from my view. All sandcasts were going to regular service for oil, filters and tires change. Does it mean, that these bikes are not original? These parts were original correct parts, so the bike is still in ORIGINAL condition. I´m not talking about using NOS superceeded Honda parts which were not correct for exact VIN number bike. I also now, that some spare parts were in some details different than parts mounted on the bike as it left the factory.
You are also right, that if I use some tank or any part from ebay, the bike is  just not as it left the factory. But still it is original Honda part, that was used as new on any other bike and therefor it is same part in same value.
It is on everybody own decission if he wants to use original part, or replica part. But for me, I respect only original part and I want only original parts. Fact is, taht all true motorcycle/car collectors on the planet are respecting only original part, even restored. Personaly, I will never buy a torso of any bike and than use replica parts to make it complete.
Now, I explained you my point of view. It would be nice if also anyone would explain/answer my previous questions:
1. Why anybody is producing replica of owners manual ? What sence does it have? Why is anybody doing this?
2. Where is the % authenticity limit for using original part and replica part for restoration? If I build sandcast only from replica parts, do you think it will be still Sandcast?

Regards,
John

[DW69K0]

John,
Here is a view on your Question 1-
I use a replica of the June 1969 owners manual when I show my bike, letting people pick it up and look through it as requested. I keep the original owners manual tucked away with other important paperwork for the bike, sealed and safe.

I also log and track all original parts not on my Sandcasts when they were purchased. For example, I purchased a Sandcast last year that had H300 mufflers on it and replaced the H300s with a set of Lotus Root mufflers that are period correct. Same thing with the recessed ignition as the previous owner replaced these two parts making the bike not correct as it would have left the factory. I want the bike represented as factory correct, but those items are not original to this Sandcast.

I personally think a Sandcast built from all replica part is truly not a Sandcast but a cheap replica.

DW