Honda CB750 Sandcast

Here we go! Restoring 576/748

Wayne · 180 · 70598

Riccardo

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Great job.
Also i.ve purchased the speed blaster and await to receive.
Great paint, very shining.


Dont miss time, go to paint the lower case, your wife is on the way of return! ;)
Riccardo
Your Italian friend.
737/940 Restored
1081/1362 Preserved
1256/665 Restored - ex Owner: Chris R.
10253/10315 (K0) Next project
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III low ign cover - Restored
1969 - Kawasaki H1 Mach III high ign cover - Restored
1971 - Kawasaki H1A - Restored
1973 - Kawasaki H1D - Preserved
1973 - Kawasaki Z1 Blackhead - Restored
1971 - Norton Commando SS - Preserved
1978 - Honda CBX - Unmolested Museum Quality
1988 - Honda CB 400SS - Unmolested
1997 - BMW R80 GS Basic - blue frame - Museum Quality
2007 - BMW HP2 Megamoto - blue frame - New


kp

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That's a good bit of advice on the washers. I've always had mine zinc plated but on occasion I have had to get the magnet out to establish a SS washer from a Zinc plated one. Once the bolt is on you would never know. I'll do that next resto KP
Yabba Dabba KP


Wayne

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Getting things all ready to put the bottom end together. Went through the oil pump, new seals etc. Thanks Ash for the 46 ID x 2mm section VITON 'O' seals. All back together and looking good so on to dropping some pieces into the crankcases!  :) Slowly but surely we are getting there.

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Wayne

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It's been a while so I thought I better chime in before you guys thought I gave up!  ;) Came down with the flu and bad cold for weeks. Really set me back and I didn't do much. Mainly checking my list of "to do's" plus gathering and searching for parts. I'm doing a Harley ironhead Bobber for a guy that has to be completed by April 15th, so again my time will be limited on 576. I have come to the conclusion that it's probably better to go slow and learn anyway. Pic's will be posted as soon as I get going again!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 02:46:43 pm by Wayne »
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Wayne

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Well, where Mark felt his frame was too glossy, I have come to the conclusion mine is too flat. It's very well painted but more like semi gloss. I have decided it's going to have to be done again. I would hate in the event I decide to sell 576 down the road that the buyer would have to take this bike down and re-do the frame a second time to get it closer to the 90% gloss that seems to be the consensus.

I found this product that is pretty close at 85% gloss. The fellow that did the Triumph trophy frame achieved outstanding results in my opinion. I don't see why good results can't be achieved from high quality rattle can paint with some care and a clean environment to do the work. I may order some of this stuff up before I can no longer get it shipped to Canada due to regulation changes coming in.  >:( Thoughts anyone?

http://www.eastwood.com/review/product/view/id/1506/
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 01:52:33 pm by Wayne »
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Wayne

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It looks very durable Steve. It's an improved formula of eastwoods original chassis black which was 85% gloss as well.

Improved resistance against corrosion, chips and scratches
Resists brake fluid, fuel and solvents
Matches OEM finish
Apply multiple coats without lifting
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Steve Swan

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I've used a various eastwood paints/coating products and been impressed with them.  i note the words "improved resistance," "resists," Eastwood uses to describe the capablities of the paint.  "resistance" makes it sound like the paint is vulnerable to fluid exposure.  i guess i would want more info to know the product you plan to use is more than "resistant" to gas, oil and other fluids the paint could be exposed to.  Would suck to have the paint's surface integrity affected or compromised by exposure to such fluids.

overall, from the probalby 30 or 40+ or so CB750 1969-76 frames i have seen, the original frame paint is always consistently glossy.  i believe parts of the frame that are less than glossy are due to a less smooth finsih such as frame joint areas ornot as thick a coat in some areas versus others.  i think it would be safe to say Honda applied a thicker coat on visible areas and a thinner coat on less visible areas.

my opinion, as best as i am capable of thinking things through, knowing little to nothing about 1969 Honda factory production, Honda did not intend a semi-gloss or satin finish to the paint applied on frame and ancillary parts.  i say this for at least 2 reasons.  1.  the paint on frames in most visible and less visible areas such as under the tank is surprisingly deep and glossy for paints used in that era.  2.  even back then, there were different shades/hues/colors/sheens of black paints.  the black Honda used for frame paint was the black Honda used.   While Honda chose the color black to paint a number of their mc model's frames, i suppose Honda coujld have decided deliberately to select a less glossy color of black such as a satin or a semi-gloss, but my self i have a hard time believing that.  I am sure Honda used a gloss black frame paint available in the day and Honda was not concerned about the shade or hue as long as the paint dried gloss black.  Nor do i think assembly line painting of the frames alloowed for uniformity or thickness of coat like the industry technology is able to produce today

I'm not sure what the point of my ramblings are, probably that Honda ordered gloss black paint that happenend to not be "midnight" or "jet" or "coal" black nor was Honda's intent ot make the black paint more or less glossy.  I suppose my other point is the paint product used by Honda in that era did not have the range of colors/shades/hues that modern paints have today.  In the day, the paint honda used on the frames was no doubt Gloss Black.

Myself, in our attempts to replicate the original color/shade/hue/sheen it's easier to get it too shiny than too semi-shiny.  The man who does my paints, i have had him duplicate black original paint; he left out the enhancers or whatever the ingredient was to make the extra high sheen/shine.  thet result was as close to original as could.  btw, "my" painter's shop burned to the ground in the High Park Fire we had for the last 3 weeks of June.  259 homes, 87,000 acres, one person died.

Why don't you have your painter shoot another coat of a shinier black, you already have a good base ?

i have not seen yet a restoration "exactly like original."  Further, i believe it's impossible achieve "exactly like original," because a restoration is not original which happens only once.  I appreciate and respect very much as close to original as possible resotrations.  But, sometimes, i think it drives us a little more mad than we should alow ourselves to be driven.  on the other hand, getting it as close to original is part of the fun and reward of restoring as evidenced by Mark's very fine 11mm stems !


Wayne

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Steve, all very valid points. When I look at my frame it's a nice job. My painter is good. To compare gloss I personally shot 2 cards, one with semi gloss black and one with high gloss. (my research tells me high gloss black rattle cans are about 90% gloss) When I compare to my frame/black parts to the cards my parts/frame are closer to semi gloss...or satin. I know if i put it together like that I will be unhappy in the end. It will bother me forever and a day! I know I may or may not have the $$, time, patience or resources to make 576 as perfect as it should be but I want it to have a good foundation in the event I wind up selling it the new owner may just want to search out things like 28 Carb's. etc. etc. and not have to pull the bike apart again to fix what I know I can make better out of the chute.  :)

So, I have to decide am I going to do it myself or have someone do it for me? I found these folks. They seem very knowledgeable and know exactly what I'm talking about with respect to the correct gloss, look etc. for the vintage.
http://www.precisionmotorcyclepainting.com/about_us/classic_motorcycle_photos.asp?Item=244

On the other hand, to your point that the paint probably wasn't very consistent back then so why not rattle can it with a good  high quality paint?? It appears the lad who posted his frame with the Eastwood product was very happy and got great results. If I do it myself then it's just me responsible for the outcome.  Sometimes that approach just works better for me.





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Wayne

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While cleaning up and assembling the final drive shaft it became apparent to me that something didn't seem right. I didn't recall ever taking the plug washer etc. off for the chain oiler?? I poked through the shaft and out came the felt, and that was it. I went through everything, I have no oiler pieces! (I was going to pug it anyway) Is it possible that this bike ran with only the felt in without losing fairly large amounts of oil. I wish I had taken a side pic of the engine during disassembly but I think this pic shows the sprocket intact and the oiler plug is not present??

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Steve Swan

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I'll try to answer this question best i can.  Please anyone else share what you know or if this in incorrect or incomplete.

Not counting the final driven shaft, there are five parts that make up the early version of the chain oiler that came with these bikes.

There was enough concern on this issue by Honda, that two Service Bulletins were issued about this particular chain oiler.  I'll try to keep this as 'unwordy' as i can, for the sake of clarity.

Service Bulletin #5 discusses drive chain lubrication adjustment and lists the six parts including the final driven shaft, which make up the chain oiler.  The parts referred to in SB #5, are the same parts which can be seen on pages 44-47 of the first printings of the CB750 Parts Manuals.

Before discussing the oiler adjuster, on end of driven shaft (opposite counter shaft sprocket) bolted to crankcase is the "final drive shaft oil guide," or, if you will, splash pan.  Oil lying in crankcase went into this "guide" pan, then passing through the drive shaft, thru the felt element and out a hole in shaft to sprocket and chain.  If your felt element was inside the shaft but there was no final shaft plug, i suppose it's safe to say there was not enough pressure in the crankcase to push out the felt element and/or you were just lucky the felt element did not come out on it's own.  Seems, if i recall correctly, the felt element was sort of a tight fit, but not that tight.  This felt element is really nothing more than a sort of porous plug.

Anyway, speaking of the actual oil flow adjuster, there originally was a 1.5mm shim (#27, pn 90443-500-000) washer which held the final shaft plug in a set position, thereby pressing against the felt oil element, inside the final driven shaft, intended to allow only a certain amount of oil to leak thru the felt element, then thru the hole in the final driven shaft and onto the outside of the shaft, spinning the oil onto the sprocket and the chain.  SB #5 discusses replacing the 1.5mm washer with a 1mm washer to decrease oil flow or add an "substitute" shim washers of different ticknesses to the 1.5mm washer to increase flow.  Use of these different thickness washers was intended to more or less compress the felt element in an attempt to control oil flow thru the felt element flowing out the hole in the final driven shaft.  

Service Bulletin #22 refers not only to a different thickness washer but also a "modified oil reserve element" to attempt to control oil flow out the hole in the driven shaft.  I've not done enough research to know if there were part numbers for the shims that were different sizes from the 1.5mm shim.  SB #22 states this different thickness washer and modified element are to be used on engine numbers before 10,915.

Then, there is SB #17 which discusses adjustment of an entirely new chain oiler adjuster, beginning engine number 26,144.  I may be mistaken, but i believe this new chain oiler had a different driven shaft, making the new oiiler adjuster not interchangeable with early felt type.

The K1 parts book shows the early and the later (as noted in SB #17) chain oiler adjuster.  In the K1 parts book, i don't see any mention of the different thickness washers nor the "modified element" as noted in SB's #5 or #22.

The original chain oilers were a challenge to adjust properly and keep adjusted.  They allowed an oil puddle to form when the bike was parked on the sidestand.  With time, the felt would allow more or less leakage or none at all; usually not the case.  Honda came out with the longer (55mm) chain guard to deflect the oil to the ground instead of up the rider's or passenger's back.  SB #22 mentions all frame numbers before 21,880 could have the "modified" guard installed free of charge.

Writing this, i do remember, again, my rolled up sleeping bag, bungeed to the passenger portion of the seat, getting oil on it, during my trip out and back to California, May 1970.

These chain oil adjusters were nothing more than an attempt to control a deliberately designed engine oil leak.

Would be interested to know if Mark's E100 retains it's early adjuster.


Wayne

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Well, I have realized I have A.S.S. (anal sandcast syndrome) so I decided I had to strip my black painted parts and re-do them. I'm glad I did! I found a hole in the frame cross section between the main stand supports I never noticed before. :(  It must have blown through when it was sandblasted and my painter missed it as well.

I just want to make sure before I fill it in that there isn't supposed to be some type of hole there for whatever reason?? Drain hole etc?

I used Tal Strip II to strip the paint from the frame this time. It did an amazing job of stripping the single stage urethane paint and epoxy primer all in one shot. Great stuff!



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markb

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My name is Mark and I have A.S.S. too.   :P There, I feel better just saying it.  I did the same thing a while back with my paint and I felt better then too.  I keep thinking if I do things like that I will get all better but I am starting to wonder.  ::)
Not sure I can help you with the hole.  I don't ever remember seeing one in that location.  If no one chimes in I'll go take a look at mine.
Mark B
1969 CB750 sandcast #97 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1969 CB750 sandcaxt #576 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1553 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #1990 - Sold
1969 CB750 sandcast #5383 restored - Sold Restoration thread link
1970 CB750 K0 restored - Sold
2010 H-D Tri Glide Ultra Classic (Huh?)


Wayne

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