Honda CB750 Sandcast

Old member from France

philcad750

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Hi all, my name is Philippe from France. I've been registered on the site for several years. I think I spent more time on the roads with my CB750 that on the web during these last years.... I also got very busy these 5 last years. Anyway, I'm happy now to join this forum.
I've been lucky when I bought my CB750 25 years ago. It was a sandcast model from October 69 - frame #3769 motor #3869. This bike was certainly one of the first 300 CB750 sent in France by Honda Corp in 1969.  I didn't restore it, just done a new paint. The original color was candy red, but I wanted it candy gold.  Since the 20 last years, I've changed some parts (exhaust pipes, shock absorbers, some parts in the motor and used parts ...), but it was normal when riding thousand and thousand miles each year. As you know, this is not a problem with this bike.  With some Club's members (I'm the President of the french CB750 Club), we ride at least 2 or 3000 miles per year during our outing.

We have a lot of competencies in the Club regarding CB750s in general and K0/early bikes in particular and if we can help anyone, it will be with pleasure (I think to Maurizio from Tuscany...!).
Please, find attached a pic from my bike, after a 1200 kms ride in south of France last September (the rear tyre was out of order but has been changed after the ride....).

A bientot,

Phil

    


kp

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Hello and welcome Phil. Yes I do have a question from you. We are aware of a bike in France with a sandcast engine number
Please look at this bike which is located in France
http://cb750sandcastonly.com/gallery/French-Sandcast
Have you seen or heard of this bike as we are very interested to know more about this bike We have been told that there is more than 1 bike like this in france but I have not been able to confirm if this is true
You may be able to help us with this mystery
KP
Yabba Dabba KP


philcad750

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Hello KP,

As you say, there is more than one sandcast bike in France with a motor number over 1007414. Personally, I know at least 5 or 6 CB750 like this, just in the Club. And most of them have a number around CB750E 10017xxx.
 
My explanation (this is only mine) is the following: Honda, during a short period (by the end of the year 69), should face with a lack of diecast crankcases on the CB750 production lines, due to the incredible (and not anticipated) demand of CB750 all around the world. So, I suppose that, as the subcontracting diecast crankcases manufacturers (or Honda itself) couldn't satisfy to the demand during this period, Honda decided to put on the production lines all the sandcast crankcases they have in stock during a very short time. May be this is the reason why we found here in France (why only in France ?) a lot of sandcast CB750 models over 1007414.

Anyway, I've been asked inside the Club to investigate this point and I will try to do it by contacting Honda France. I'll inform you as soon as possible.
  


Steve Swan

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Phil, It's great to have you !  Welcome ! 

Fascinating information on the French sandcasts. 

Was France one of the last countries to receive initial batches of the CB750 from Honda or did France receive machines same time as England and other countries ?


steff750

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 ::)  what i understand is france had the "sandcast" at frame  #1003495~
 >:( germany got the "sandcast" from                         frame  #1005084~
 :)  australia got the "sandcast" from                          frame  #1005130~
 ;)  the UK never had the sandcast only"CB750 " from  frame  #1010369~
 :-* only the netherlands had the "CB750" after UK from frame #1031084~
 8)   and the winner is the good ole USA "sandcast"from  frame #1000001~


kp

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Phil
That is amazing information indeed. As you know of others it would be of great interest to many of us for you can get some detail of these bikes so we may include in our records. This is fascinating and a very interesting further development into the sandcast bikes located in France KP
Yabba Dabba KP


kp

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::)  what i understand is france had the "sandcast" at frame  #1003495~
 >:( germany got the "sandcast" from                         frame  #1005084~
 :)  australia got the "sandcast" from                          frame  #1005130~
 ;)  the UK never had the sandcast only"CB750 " from  frame  #1010369~
 :-* only the netherlands had the "CB750" after UK from frame #1031084~
 8)   and the winner is the good ole USA "sandcast"from  frame #1000001~
The information that pops up on this site truly amazes Thanks for that info Steff
Yabba Dabba KP


hondasan

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The same information was published within several of Honda's own parts list - number 1, ref no. 1334101, dated December 20, 1971 for example. Honda UK's September 10, 1977 parts list (number 4, ref. no.1434105 provides the same numbers except for France for which it suggests 1003480 as the earliest VIN.

Chris R.
Chris R.
302/338


Steve Swan

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Phil, Sure hope to hear more from you about the French sandcasts !  Would be very nice to hear from the owners of these sandcasts and see pictures !  I'll send Wayne an email, asking him to create a topic titled "French Sandcasts" in the General Category section.


CB750faces.com (Lecram)

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::)  what i understand is france had the "sandcast" at frame  #1003495~
 >:( germany got the "sandcast" from                         frame  #1005084~
 :)  australia got the "sandcast" from                          frame  #1005130~
 ;)  the UK never had the sandcast only"CB750 " from  frame  #1010369~
 :-* only the netherlands had the "CB750" after UK from frame #1031084~
 8)   and the winner is the good ole USA "sandcast"from  frame #1000001~

I know two original Dutch CB750s, one is a late sandcast (in 7000 range), possibly a former demo bike from a dealer, licensed in January 1970 and one has a 101.... nr. This one is from March 1970.




philcad750

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I asked pics to members of the Club. One of them owns 3 sandcasts over 7414: two bikes and one motor. I'll post them in the new topic 'french sandcasts' when received.

You know guys, I always been told that the 1000 first CB750 have been built in California by Honda America in 68/69. This is the reason why the numbers (frame and motors) start at 1000001 in the USA. However, french dealers and other dealers in Europe I guess, have received these early bikes (one per dealer) for demo purpose. I personally know one of this sandcast bike in France, given to Michel Rougerie (the pilot who won the first new Bol d'Or race in 69) by JAPAUTO (a famous dealer in Paris). The engine number is 1000313. The frame was interesting because we can see a steering damper fixation above the horn. The steering damper has finally never been installed by Honda on the CB750s. 

According the parts list information, France received sandcasts from the frame number 1003495 in august/September 69. 543 sandcasts have been sold in 69. I suppose all the CB750 sold in France in 69 were sandcast models. I don't know when the first die cast has been sold.
       


kp

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Phil,
Very good feedback. We need to have the sandcast CB750 fraternity from all over the world engaged in these topics as the information provided from all countries is invaluable to help us develop our knowledge of what occurred back in 1969. For example, I know Tom Courtney from Australia has provided valuable information to our forum on a range of topics. My understanding from Tom is that a number of bikes with numbers in the 15XX were delivered to Australia for demonstration/sales purposes and these bikes remained in the country so the delivery of the bikes numbered 5130 may be the official line but this would seem to bear no fact to reality. There was a green or gold sandcast bike floating around the UK but they say no sandcast was seen in the UK at all. Thus, we are bound to look elsewhere for the unofficial official information. Indeed, if we look at the official record, the production of sandcast cases ceased at 7414. My personal view is that the "French Sandcast" is real and a fact. Some will of course disagree as the record states otherwise.
Please keep the dialogue going as I and others are excited at what you have to share  :) KP
Yabba Dabba KP


Steve Swan

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Phil, perhaps you've heard of Bob Jameson and Bob Hansen.  Some information on these two mens' involvement with the CB750 beginning 1967, can be found in the website under the "2009 Meet" section.

Bob Hansen sent Bob Jameson and Bob Young to Japan in 1968.  At the 2009 meet, a number of us SOOC members met personally Bob Jameson (then age 80) and Bob Hansen (then age 90.)  Bob Hansen's association with Honda began 1959.  Bob H was invited to visit Honda Japan in 1967 and during his visit, while at dinner, gave Sochiro Honda the idea to build a 4 cyl, not a 650cc 2 cyl as was being planned.  

While in Japan, during March 1969, Bob Jameson watched and was present when the #1 machine was built, not on an assembly line, but on the floor by a very excited group of Japanese engineers.  Bob J was in Japan for more than 30 days, test rode the #1 bike (among others.)  Bob J had very interesting stories of seeing the manufacture of parts and the building of motorcycles following the #1 CB750.  I've not had the privilege of meeting Bob Young who was in Japan during that period for over 6 months.  

Somewhere in the website and/or on youtube, there is a link to the one hour presentation these men gave on Friday, Saturday and Sunday of the meet.

I talked with with Bob Jameson and Bob Hansen as much as i could over the 3 days of the meet.  They both said every CB750 was built in Japan, not in the USA.

That steering damper gusseting is certainly interesting, it's on a number of members early vins.


philcad750

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Steve, thanks for the information regarding the fact that every CB750 has been built in Japan. I have to check this with the guy who told me the first CB750s were manually built in California.

You mentioned Bob Hansen in your mail. Do you know the story of the CR750 which won Daytona race drived by Dick Mann in '70 ? In 2003, it seems Bob has confirmed that this CR, located in France where it has been restored is the right one. But there is still a lot of discussion about it. Frame and many parts will be the good ones, not all of them. See the following link : http://www.daytona70.com/English/history.htm  

Regarding the sandcast numbers over 7414, please have a look on these 3 pics :

1 bike : Frame #1017272 - Engine #1017417
1 bike : Frame #1017109 - Engine #1014170
1 engine #1017135  

Digits types are the same on the three engines. So it seems these numbers have been engraved in the Honda factory.