The Sandcast after The Sandcast... A myth?? No, just a reality!!

[Aurelia B20]

My advice about these French Sandcasts is that Honda had big problems with diecast production delay following the incredible success of the CB750, and so decided to produce some sandcast engines. Decision to sell these bikes only in one country is understandable as it's easier to inform the after-sale services of one country. Why Honda has chosen France for these bikes will remain a mistery !

But I think that all other parts of these bikes were the same that the diecast machines produced at this time, as single cut front guard, unwrinkled tanks and so on.

KP :  cream coloured horn were specific to the French market, all Hondas of the era had the same horn in France !
I contact my friend and sak him for pictures of VIN number and details  
I'll post them here in low-res, it would be possible to send them by email in hi-res if interested.

[4pots1969]

Yes, this is a very good analysis of your part of a single country for the information of Honda dealers in these very very late Sandcast.
They arrived in France in my opinion is because random demand...
But Honda France has it been informed by Honda Japan??  Very sincerely I have very big doubts, because I do not think that Honda wanted anyone to know, and it happens to the ears of his rival Kawasaki...

For a manufacturer like Honda this kind of procedure is strongly discouraged and even prohibited and Honda should be in a very very big shit for production to take the risk of putting in the circuit of Sandcast engines during production Diecast... And this is explained by the clutch cover 9/10 of fantasy worthy of amateurism...
They said : it will pass without anyone noticing, and indeed this is what happened, some dealers have noted but it was not beyond the threshold of the door...
The pellet sometimes it pays !! Just my opinion...

I will like you are right in your analysis because it would mean that Honda must Sandcast listed these bikes to transmit in France in Dealer and that may still exist somewhere a list of all these numbers frame and engine ... One can always dream !!  

As against the fender singles 17000 series sincerely cut I do not know ... The proprétaire of E-17199 had assured me on the phone that his bike was the reservoir of wrinkles but I've never seen. .. So it is not worth much. As against the 14000 series when they arrived on French soil had double cuts and tank wrinkles, this is a certainty ....

[Steve Swan]

Excellent observations Gerard.

[kp]

I think your observations Patrick are worthy of thought I am jealous of the French getting these sandcast bikes  Thanks for the info on the horn Something I had never noticed but yet another variation.
Gerard your comments are also very interesting and a real possibility

[Aurelia B20]

Thanks kp for your comment ! 

I would be very surprised if Honda Japan did not informed Honda France about these bikes !
When we see the details and precision of the parts-list edited by Honda Japan, I can't believe that Honda France had not the information as these bikes didn't appear in the parts-list ...
And Honda France probably informed the retailers by an internal note (Service Bulletins) ?

Gerard, why do you think that these bikes could be a problem for Honda France ?
Are diecast engine better than sandcast engine ?

At least I am sure that any mechanics from Honda retailers immediately saw the difference between a sandcast and a diecast, maybe some customers too 

[4pots1969]

Patrick, Thank you for opening this very interesting discussion ...

If Honda France had known, it would not have worried ... Because the most important for them was to sell a maximum of motorcycles ... At the time, I think these details did not matter ...

And if Honda France had been informed in March 1970 by Honda Japan of the existence of these bikes, we would have known long before the 2000s ... and I think that this important information would also have been mentioned in the book of Eric Breton published in 1999, knowing he was helped for much of its documentation by the people who worked at Honda France in 1969 and 1970 ...
It is completely impossible that these people at Honda are not aware if Honda Japan had really given this information in March 1970... What do you think?

Engines diecast better compared to engines sandcast ?? In 1970 no, but now we are aware, surely yes ...

[Steve Swan]

Really wonderful comments from both of you French gentleman.  it's very nice to have your participation and at the same time !

[4pots1969]

Really wonderful comments from both of you French gentleman.  it's very nice to have your participation and at the same time !

The French touch !!  

Many Thanks, Steve

[Aurelia B20]

I don't know if it's the French touch, but a very interesting discussion for sure ! 

As you say Gérard, the aim of Honda France in 1970 was to deliver a lot of CB750's and answer to the retailers demands.
Sandcast or diecast engine was absolutely not the problem, and what is today for us a very important point was only a detail for the Honda France employees at the moment. So I am not surprised if they forgot the information very quickly and did not mention this fact to Eric Breton ...

I often dream to have the possibility to read Honda France archives from the 60's and 70's, if they are always existing. I am trying to write an article about the beginning of Honda in France, but Psalty's heirs are very hard to find, it seems he had only a daughter who probably married and used his husband's name. I have many documents and information about the difficult relationship between Honda and Psalty between 1961 and 1967, when they lost their "exclusive importer" status, but no precise idea of sales level during these years.

[Steve Swan]

as much information as you fellows can find, research, all would be very welcome.  If French Honda Distributor or Dealer archives exist and you can find them, what a great information coup you will achieve !

Bob Jameson, said USA distributors, dealers, service, sales personnel and retail buyers paid no attention to "9-hole vs 10-hole clutch covers," sandcast vs diecast crank cases."   what American distributors, dealers and retail public were demanding were motorcycles.  Bob Hansen said the sole focus of the Honda factory officials was to DELIVER as soon as possible units to dealers in the USA.

it's difficult to not believe Honda KNEW the motorcycles they were going to send would be assembled using sandcast cases.  i find it more difficult to believe distributors or importers such as Psalty would know the motorcycles were fitted with sandcast cases.  What Psalty wanted was motorcycles NOW.  i am sure French demand for CB750 motorcycles was very strong.  Gerard and Patrick; your passion for these machines reflects this.

Honda Factory KNEW the majority of the market volume was in USA.  Honda factory focus was on satisfying USA market demand FIRST. information i am aware of, albeit it 2nd hand, non-USA markets did not have the priority of receiving units over USA markets.  case in point, Britain did not get CB750 units until early-mid 1970.   i cannot imagine British, French and probably German outcry for importing units was less than strong.

[Steve Swan]

was there not another French fellow, "Phillipe," who had a French sandcast or knew information about the French sandcasts ?  i am certain Phillipe posted here years ago.....  in fact, i found his post, i have "bumped up the post he made in 2011.

[Steve Swan]

i am trying to find the VERY FIRST POST disclosing the existence of French sandcasts, but i cannot find it..... 

[4pots1969]

Steve, Here is the link to the post of philcad750

http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.15.html

http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,660.30.html

[4pots1969]

Steve,
Here is the link to one of your post which dates from February 2010, this is the first post on this thorny issue...

http://cb750sandcastonly.com/smf_forum/index.php/topic,104.0.html

[kp]

The very first post is no longer there as far as I can see/find. This all began when I was sent a photo of a bike that looked to have a sandcast engine (by who is but a distant memory). There were several photos sent by a member (I cannot remember) but were not enough to confirm the existence of such a bike. I do recall sending an email to a person in France to see if further information could be found. I do remember (I think) Chris Ruston being part of the discussion and it was thought that Chris may be able to arrange a visit to the owner if he was able. This was all pre November 2011 and I can say unequivocally there was a lot of doubt expressed at the time. The only reference we can see is the post on November 3 by philcad750 that sheds some light on this but there was a lot of discussion pre this post.
The "French Sandcast" category had not been begun at this time as there was very little info available Maybe Wayne can restore the gallery photos and original posts from the time. Maybe all this original info is retained in the archives of earlier forum postings. I think it was advanced by Phil and Gerard some time later and their efforts were instrumental in getting some serious discussion started on this topic The rest is more or less what we now have. I think Chris R can shed more light on this question Steve. My memory is not so clear that I can attest to the accuracy of all I've posted here.